The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Spelt]

Link's above them both...lol. We also have two tourney wins...while Ness has none...That rankings list is great for its purpose which is to track tourney results for specific characters, but when you use it for things like tier placings...it's skewed.

Link won ONE tourney with a good turn-out, and he jumped like 10 places...he was above Fox at one point.

That said, there are good Ness mains out there. Vicegrip, Shaky, FOW...they're putting in work.

There are good Mario mains out there. Boss, Vato_Break, BO X7, Irios...they're repping to the fullest.

If you want to decide who's better, don't come uninformed spouting nonsense like "look how THIS Ness placed! Can any Marios do that??" When we've been putting up the same numbers. It's better to compare the characters, and their respective match-ups instead.

LOL, o-wait, this is smashboards! Carry on you crazy kids...

well that post was rather pointless.

 

[HeroMystic]

All right, I see your point, but I don't think matchups should be the only thing considered when determining places on the list.

It shouldn't. Or I should say, it doesn't.

Characters going by what they can "possibly" do in the future overall is bull. I'm a theorycrafter and even I wouldn't do that.

Tournament results should be factored in, but it shouldn't be everything. Sonic skyrocketed in tournament results. Obviously, something worked. What then needs to be factored is, who are the players, do they place at a consistent basis, and a factorization of popularity. If there's only a few characters winning, and they're on-and-off, then why the hell do they need to rise? There needs to be a lot of players representing and winning on a consistent basis in order for characters to rise. Till then only thing we can say is "Those players are really freaken good!"

Then also, what Shaya said awhile back.

 

[adumbrodeus]

A2ZOMG you give theorycrafting a bad name, you really need to look at my mindgames potential thread.


PS camping is not a non-argument just because people don't do it, our top players are not tech heavy unfortunately, but there's also something else, people don't generally approach with the moves that can be powershielded on reaction, those come up as predictive.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

A2ZOMG you give theorycrafting a bad name, you really need to look at my mindgames potential thread.

Because your the best at it amirite adumbrodeus old buddy old pal

 

[humble]

Prediction & Reaction

Okay, people, break time for an important message for you theory crazy folks.

The average human reaction time to a single visual stimuli is -- frames, give or take a few. As a gamer, it is likely you will have enhanced reaction times, probably closer to -- or -- frames for a single visual stimuli.

BUT!

When you add multiple possible options, the reaction time rockets up drastically- this is because instead of simply recognizing and reacting, you must recognize, process, and then proceed to react. You will be reacting around -- frames at this point. However since you won't recognize that you should be reacting until about -- frames in, you will be reacting closer to -- frames.

Now you are all probably thinking this is bull- you almost never react that slow, and can easily recognize and react to moves much faster then this. That is because you are predicting ahead. To be even halfway decent at this game, you must be prepared and ready to predict and react ahead of time; you essentially skip the processing and recognizing phases; you register a visual stimuli which indicates your opponent has acted, and you immediately act with whatever action would best counter his predicted attack. If he did something that you failed to predict and could counter your options, then he would beat you out.

Essentially, brawl between good players is a match of mental magnitude. While melee focused on physical prowess, brawl is a slower paced, more tactical game. You (assuming you are a regular brawl player) know the options of your opponents character in most given situations. You know the tools he has, and what you should do in response to most of them. For every situation you find yourself in, you process (ahead of time) what his options are, what his best options are, what patterns has he formed, and how to react accordingly to the option he is most likely to use. In every match, in countless scenarios, you weigh options and must predict his most likely course of action, and throw out your counter to it. To provide an example, take the simple childs game known as rock, paper, scissors. You and your opponent are limited to three options, equally valid, and each dominates one other, and is dominated by another. Rock beats scissors but loses to paper. Scissors beat paper but lose to rock. Paper beats rock but loses to scissors. In order to win, you must predict what your opponent will throw and react by throwing what will beat his option.

However rock, paper, scissors is a simple childs game and lacks the depth of brawl- you have multitudes more options, not all of them are equal and serve different purposes, and depending on the situation there are always options superior to others. It is these options which are most often used, and thus you predict them using that and use an option that counters it- but if he predicts your prediction and counter, he can use an option, which, in the first scenario would be lesser, but now counters your prediction. Thus, the complex game of prediction in brawl unfolds.


The main purpose of this post however, was to inform people, and teach those who rely a bit too much on theory craft. While it is simple to look at a scenario and to already decide who has the superior option, and thus proclaim that character to win the scenario, theory craft fails to take into account prediction, reaction, and the intriguing sort of counter system that forms. For example, if you shield D3's Ftilt, you can punish him during its rather lengthy endlag. However what if he predicts your shield, and grabs instead? On the other hand you most likely predicted not ftilt, but his grab, as it is one of D3's best options on the ground, and thus you spot dodge and punished him. But since he knows that you know his best option is to grab, he chooses a lesser option and charges his D smash and hits you out of spotdodge. You see, in scenarios like this, that it isn't so simply clear cut and dried "x option>y option, so x character wins." Prediction and reaction are a huge part of this game, and people need to take it more into account.

And of course, the most popular and widespread of theory crafting, just power shield it. I will not deny that power shielding is an excellent tool in many situations and is a great skill to master; however it cannot be considered an end all be all. It is simply another option, and one that can be predicted and countered, just like most others. Power shielding has tight timing, and you cannot power shield on reaction- you can power shield on prediction, which is an entirely different matter. People need to understand the difference between the two- if you predict something, you weighed the odds and made an educated guess as to what they would do; if you react to something, you know what they have done, as it has been done- prediction is trying to see what your opponent will do next, reaction is seeing what your opponent has done. Both important, both needed to play brawl, but both distinct separate entities and should be treated as such.

EDIT

 

[Darky-Sama]

I think I speak for everyone when I say TL;DR.

But uhh... I guess I do agree with some of it. Too lazy to point out the parts I disagree with.

 

[humble]

I think I speak for everyone when I say TL;DR.

But uhh... I guess I do agree with some of it. Too lazy to point out the parts I disagree with.

But I has teh paragraphs and doesn't afraid of nothing. D:

By the way internet subculture and its ludicrous dislike of medium amounts of text in a single post makes me raaaage.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's actually not that long of a read. And it speaks the truth at pretty high degrees.

TL;DR version:

The main purpose of this post however, was to inform people, and teach those who rely a bit too much on theory craft. While it is simple to look at a scenario and to already decide who has the superior option, and thus proclaim that character to win the scenario, theory craft fails to take into account prediction, reaction, and the intriguing sort of counter system that forms.

 

[humble]

I was going to make a new thread, but really I only typed it up in response to A2 and his "powershield everyone of ikes attacks" statement. Hope he reads it.

 

[Justblaze647]

Nicely done, Humble. That was a good read.

 

[Darky-Sama]

But I has teh paragraphs and doesn't afraid of nothing. D:

By the way internet subculture and its ludicrous dislike of medium amounts of text in a single post makes me raaaage.

I was joking. >_>

I thought it was a very enjoyable post. Even if I killed a few braincells reading it on two hours of sleep.

The only thing I really disagree with is a player's reaction time. 5-10 frames in you'd realize that you should be reacting, so why should it take an additional 40-45 frames for you to have reacted? I'd say acting around 30-35 frames would be a bit more accurate for the average gamer, but that's just me.

Also; P.S. Good job calling me out on that one, Humble. I was enjoying being lazy tonight until you ruined it for me. Good job. :[

 

[DMG]

Wtf lol kinda incorrect about the reacting part lol.

"The average human reaction time to a single visual stimuli is 20 frames, give or take a few. As a gamer, it is likely you will have enhanced reaction times, probably closer to 18 or 16 frames for a single visual stimuli."

Acceptable. I think people can have reaction times closer to 10-12 frames (I KNOW certain players definitely do when they are intently paying attention), but for an average, this seems fair.

"BUT!

When you add multiple possible options, the reaction time rockets up drastically- this is because instead of simply recognizing and reacting, you must recognize, process, and then proceed to react. You will be reacting around 40 frames at this point. However since you won't recognize that you should be reacting until about 5-10 frames in, you will be reacting closer to 45-50 frames."

Yeah son I am calling you out on this one. 45-50 frames is longer than it takes to Fsmash with Ganondorf. Most people, even those who are slower reaction wise, could probably shield Ganondorf's uncharged Fsmash on reaction. This is grossly exaggerated. You could argue that the more things you have to process, the more it slows you down, but actually once you reach a certain point in this game, those extra options are already figured out and accounted for (processing stuff ahead of time is extremely easy for Brawl. It's kinda easy to see when you misspace a move on someone's shield, when you are gonna get punished for something laggy, etc.) , and your real reaction time comes into play (which may be 10 frames or under).

Having a lot of things to factor in affects might slightly affect your decision making, but not your sheer reaction time. It's not hard to have a lot of stuff factored in while playing, and to also play with a good reaction time.

 

[humble]

I was joking. >_>

I thought it was a very enjoyable post. Even if I killed a few braincells reading it on two hours of sleep.

The only thing I really disagree with is a player's reaction time. 5-10 frames in you'd realize that you should be reacting, so why should it take an additional 40-45 frames for you to have reacted? I'd say acting around 30-35 frames would be a bit more accurate for the average gamer, but that's just me.

Also; P.S. Good job calling me out on that one, Humble. I was enjoying being lazy tonight until you ruined it for me. Good job. :[

So was I. :O

My posts are proven to increase your braincell count, not lower them. ;V

Because while you recognize a visual stimuli, your brain must access your memory and process it until it matches said visual stimuli with a certain move, and then you begin to react to the move. If you predicted ahead of time what move they were using, you would take 5-10 frames to recognize the visual stimuli and immediately respond with the option you thought would counter the move you predicted they would use. It is basically see, react, instead of see, match, react.

No problem, I love being an ******* over the internet. One of my few joys.

 

[humble]

Wtf lol kinda incorrect about the reacting part lol.

"The average human reaction time to a single visual stimuli is 20 frames, give or take a few. As a gamer, it is likely you will have enhanced reaction times, probably closer to 18 or 16 frames for a single visual stimuli."

Acceptable. I think people can have reaction times closer to 10-12 frames (I KNOW certain players definitely do when they are intently paying attention), but for an average, this seems fair.

"BUT!

When you add multiple possible options, the reaction time rockets up drastically- this is because instead of simply recognizing and reacting, you must recognize, process, and then proceed to react. You will be reacting around 40 frames at this point. However since you won't recognize that you should be reacting until about 5-10 frames in, you will be reacting closer to 45-50 frames."

Yeah son I am calling you out on this one. 45-50 frames is longer than it takes to Fsmash with Ganondorf. Most people, even those who are slower reaction wise, could probably shield Ganondorf's uncharged Fsmash on reaction. This is grossly exaggerated. You could argue that the more things you have to process, the more it slows you down, but actually once you reach a certain point in this game, those extra options are already figured out and accounted for (processing stuff ahead of time is extremely easy for Brawl. It's kinda easy to see when you misspace a move on someone's shield, when you are gonna get punished for something laggy, etc.) , and your real reaction time comes into play (which may be 10 frames or under).

Having a lot of things to factor in affects might slightly affect your decision making, but not your sheer reaction time. It's not hard to have a lot of stuff factored in while playing, and to also play with a good reaction time.

Double post to respond to the post trying to find fallacies.


You say you find error in that you don't react as fast as you thought- That is because you don't react, you predict. You admitted yourself that you are processing things ahead of time- this is prediction, and as you said, it is major for brawl.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Most people usually have an idea in their mind on what they wish to punish an opponent with in Brawl, judging on distance. It's mainly just a split second reaction from there by concluding if what they plan is viable or not. If not, they usually have a back up strategy to punish with, or shielding when in doubt.

Also, does this apply to the Meta Knight mains who can just tap their C-stick downward after just about any action that's avoided? /sarcasm.


But I actually think 20 10 frames total seems more accurate. Especially after discussing Wario's frame data in another thread with DMG.

Wario's grab is around 5-6 frames, give or take.
Wario can grab you four times before you can react? Holy ****.

(Maybe I'm just looking at what you were saying wrong, but if that's relly the case here, that's in no way accurate. :x)

 

[humble]

The numbers aren't the point. Those are just BS #s I put in there to give a general idea- the point was the concept, not the numbers. If you want, go look up some numbers and report your findings.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Okay, people, break time for an important message for you theory crazy folks.

The average human reaction time to a single visual stimuli is 20 frames, give or take a few. As a gamer, it is likely you will have enhanced reaction times, probably closer to 18 or 16 frames for a single visual stimuli.

BUT!

When you add multiple possible options, the reaction time rockets up drastically- this is because instead of simply recognizing and reacting, you must recognize, process, and then proceed to react. You will be reacting around 40 frames at this point. However since you won't recognize that you should be reacting until about 5-10 frames in, you will be reacting closer to 45-50 frames.

Now you are all probably thinking this is bull- you almost never react that slow, and can easily recognize and react to moves much faster then this. That is because you are predicting ahead. To be even halfway decent at this game, you must be prepared and ready to predict and react ahead of time; you essentially skip the processing and recognizing phases; you register a visual stimuli which indicates your opponent has acted, and you immediately act with whatever action would best counter his predicted attack. If he did something that you failed to predict and could counter your options, then he would beat you out.

Essentially, brawl between good players is a match of mental magnitude. While melee focused on physical prowess, brawl is a slower paced, more tactical game. You (assuming you are a regular brawl player) know the options of your opponents character in most given situations. You know the tools he has, and what you should do in response to most of them. For every situation you find yourself in, you process (ahead of time) what his options are, what his best options are, what patterns has he formed, and how to react accordingly to the option he is most likely to use. In every match, in countless scenarios, you weigh options and must predict his most likely course of action, and throw out your counter to it. To provide an example, take the simple childs game known as rock, paper, scissors. You and your opponent are limited to three options, equally valid, and each dominates one other, and is dominated by another. Rock beats scissors but loses to paper. Scissors beat paper but lose to rock. Paper beats rock but loses to scissors. In order to win, you must predict what your opponent will throw and react by throwing what will beat his option.

However rock, paper, scissors is a simple childs game and lacks the depth of brawl- you have multitudes more options, not all of them are equal and serve different purposes, and depending on the situation there are always options superior to others. It is these options which are most often used, and thus you predict them using that and use an option that counters it- but if he predicts your prediction and counter, he can use an option, which, in the first scenario would be lesser, but now counters your prediction. Thus, the complex game of prediction in brawl unfolds.


The main purpose of this post however, was to inform people, and teach those who rely a bit too much on theory craft. While it is simple to look at a scenario and to already decide who has the superior option, and thus proclaim that character to win the scenario, theory craft fails to take into account prediction, reaction, and the intriguing sort of counter system that forms. For example, if you shield D3's Ftilt, you can punish him during its rather lengthy endlag. However what if he predicts your shield, and grabs instead? On the other hand you most likely predicted not ftilt, but his grab, as it is one of D3's best options on the ground, and thus you spot dodge and punished him. But since he knows that you know his best option is to grab, he chooses a lesser option and charges his D smash and hits you out of spotdodge. You see, in scenarios like this, that it isn't so simply clear cut and dried "x option>y option, so x character wins." Prediction and reaction are a huge part of this game, and people need to take it more into account.

And of course, the most popular and widespread of theory crafting, just power shield it. I will not deny that power shielding is an excellent tool in many situations and is a great skill to master; however it cannot be considered an end all be all. It is simply another option, and one that can be predicted and countered, just like most others. Power shielding has tight timing, and you cannot power shield on reaction- you can power shield on prediction, which is an entirely different matter. People need to understand the difference between the two- if you predict something, you weighed the odds and made an educated guess as to what they would do; if you react to something, you know what they have done, as it has been done- prediction is trying to see what your opponent will do next, reaction is seeing what your opponent has done. Both important, both needed to play brawl, but both distinct separate entities and should be treated as such.

...


Wrong

As you can see, reaction time's median is 215 milliseconds (about 12.9 frames) with the mode being 210 milliseconds.


Of course, you won't always process that fast, there is lag (what you spoke of before), but that can be dealt with with MU experience, because it's a matter of efficient processing of the initial cues and known reaction. That and knowing the possible options at the moment and being prepared to execute them as soon as possible.


That's when people approach the true limit of their reaction time (demonstrated by said benchmark when they become attuned to the test, remove all distraction, etc).



The easiest way to show you're wrong, how do people shield Ike's f-smash on reaction pretty much every time? How do we have reliable DI?


If people are lagging almost a full second behind the game, the metagame would be very different, and extremely offensive. Even medium level players facing an Ike for the first time won't be hit with the f-smash, and I don't see anyone getting hit with a falcon punch out of neutral unless they try to beat it or something.


TL;DR: The times you give are BS.

 

[humble]

...


Wrong

As you can see, reaction time's median is 215 milliseconds (about 12.9 frames) with the mode being 210 milliseconds.


Of course, you won't always process that fast, there is lag (what you spoke of before), but that can be dealt with with MU experience, because it's a matter of efficient processing of the initial cues and known reaction. That and knowing the possible options at the moment and being prepared to execute them as soon as possible.


That's when people approach the true limit of their reaction time (demonstrated by said benchmark when they become attuned to the test, remove all distraction, etc).



The easiest way to show you're wrong, how do people shield Ike's f-smash on reaction pretty much every time? How do we have reliable DI?


If people are lagging almost a full second behind the game, the metagame would be very different, and extremely offensive. Even medium level players facing an Ike for the first time won't be hit with the f-smash, and I don't see anyone getting hit with a falcon punch out of neutral unless they try to beat it or something.


TL;DR: The times you give are BS.

Wow, this post sure would have been better if it weren't for that pesky post right before it where I said the numbers were BS, and then you repeated it...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wow, this post sure would have been better if it weren't for that pesky post right before it where I said the numbers were BS, and then you repeated it...

Notice the gap, less then a minute?


That post took more then a minute to write, you ninja'd me.


The point is that I answered your objection, 12.9 frames is the average of the sample, which makes my personal reaction time of 10 frames well within acceptable range, and your processing of complex stimuli a matter of MU experience.



Basically, your entire post was BS, not just the actual numbers.

 

[YagamiLight]

I do think the point about visual clues being important is one that should be taken to heart, though. Why is it easy to see Ganondorf's Dtilt coming but not so much his Ftilt, even though both have a similar speed (I'm afraid I don't have Ganon's frame data memorized but I believe they are both 10-11 frames, no?)? The answer is because Ganon slumps down to the ground for his Dtilt. When the game's tallest character suddenly becomes Meta Knight's height you instantly process that something is wrong and shield. His Ftilt gives little in the way of such blatantly obvious clues.

Would I be wrong in saying this?

 

[humble]

Notice the gap, less then a minute?


That post took more then a minute to write, you ninja'd me.


The point is that I answered your objection, 12.9 frames is the average of the sample, which makes my personal reaction time of 10 frames well within acceptable range, and your processing of complex stimuli a matter of MU experience.



Basically, your entire post was BS, not just the actual numbers.

I care. Hardcore.

The numbers were BS, as I said, and were of less relevance then you seem to believe. I could care less about your personal reaction time, but nice job anyway.

I don't think because the numbers were off, the post was off. Makes a fantastic strawman though.

My point was about the nature of brawl, the mindgames and prediction aspects, and the unreliability of reacting on visual stimuli. I was speaking to A2 on his claims that one could simply powershield everything Ike does, and I was trying to get the point across that it wasn't simple because of a variety of factors.

Sorry if I am being hostile and defensive, I am a mite bit miffed that you said my entire post was bull **** because of the numbers. In fact I made a variety of points in that post and reaction was only one of them, so even if the numbers made that whole portion invalid, I don't think the rest is, and take offense when you call it all bull ****.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I care. Hardcore.

The numbers were BS, as I said, and were of less relevance then you seem to believe. I could care less about your personal reaction time, but nice job anyway.

I don't think because the numbers were off, the post was off. Makes a fantastic strawman though.

My point was about the nature of brawl, the mindgames and prediction aspects, and the unreliability of reacting on visual stimuli. I was speaking to A2 on his claims that one could simply powershield everything Ike does, and I was trying to get the point across that it wasn't simple because of a variety of factors.

Sorry if I am being hostile and defensive, I am a mite bit miffed that you said my entire post was bull **** because of the numbers. In fact I made a variety of points in that post and reaction was only one of them, so even if the numbers made that whole portion invalid, I don't think the rest is, and take offense when you call it all bull ****.

Still shouldn't throw out numbers for the sake of throwing out numbers.

Just sayin'.

Everything else was more or less on point, but as DMG said having a lot of options should not affect your reaction time in the slightest. Prediction is still a guess, albeit an educated one, and you are usually going to act off of a prediction with the same amount of mental/physical celerity as a gut instinct. In fact, the two really coincide (i.e. trained fighters, high-end Brawl players, etc).

Unless we're playing Super Metaphysics Bros. Then we might be here a little bit pondering whether the chair is not a chair.

Smooth Criminal

 

[humble]

Removed the numbers, the only numbers after the first two paragraphs were used in D3's name- thats it, other then that only the opening statement had incorrect numbers, which I apologize for.

The chair is not a chair :V

 

[da K.I.D.]

I agree with humble post and descriptions whole heartedly, as it has been something I discovered and noticed a while back but couldnt adaquately put it into words the way he did.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree with humble post and descriptions whole heartedly, as it has been something I discovered and noticed a while back but couldnt adaquately put it into words the way he did.

And you didn't notice science proves him wrong?

I care. Hardcore.

The numbers were BS, as I said, and were of less relevance then you seem to believe. I could care less about your personal reaction time, but nice job anyway.

I don't think because the numbers were off, the post was off. Makes a fantastic strawman though.

My point was about the nature of brawl, the mindgames and prediction aspects, and the unreliability of reacting on visual stimuli. I was speaking to A2 on his claims that one could simply powershield everything Ike does, and I was trying to get the point across that it wasn't simple because of a variety of factors.

Sorry if I am being hostile and defensive, I am a mite bit miffed that you said my entire post was bull **** because of the numbers. In fact I made a variety of points in that post and reaction was only one of them, so even if the numbers made that whole portion invalid, I don't think the rest is, and take offense when you call it all bull ****.

The reason everything can't be powershielded on reaction is because he does have moves that cause pressure that cannot be powershielded on reaction, and the moves that can take advantage of you committing to something else beforehand.

Honestly, the stimuli isn't really complex, it's simple visual stimili but not understanding it is what makes it complex, namely how you should react to it and what to look for, both of which are dealt with via MU experience quite easily. After that it's all muscle memory in terms of what to do.


Honestly, only in circumstances where you expect nothing is the brain so slow, even if you have a vague notion that there's a set of possible things you need to react to quickly (in other words, you're focused) then your mind reacts much more quickly to the stimili that's within the realm of what your mind considers possible. So if somebody randomly took out a knife and tried to stab you, we could expect almost a full second of lag on your mind. But if you were in a knife-fight and the guy tried to stab you... not so much.


So yeah, it was meaningless sophism.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lets just all agree that A2 is stupid, that should be simple and straightforward enough for all of us.

 

[adumbrodeus]

lets just all agree that A2 is stupid bad at theoretical modeling in this game, that should be simple and straightforward enough for all of us.

Yeah, he doesn't strike me as stupid, but after the conversation that Samus is extremely underrated he seems to have a very tenuous grasp of how MUs actually work especially in terms of mix-ups.



It's not exactly easy, so I wouldn't call him stupid for not knowing how to do it properly, just wrong.

 

[da K.I.D.]

when somebody is THAT wrong THAT often and THAT hardheaded about it, that says stupid to me

 

[adumbrodeus]

when somebody is THAT wrong THAT often and THAT hardheaded about it, that says stupid to me

Or, they misunderstand the game from a basic theoretical level, which isn't exactly hard.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If you WANT to argue with me, at least let me know beforehand...

Now that I see that you INTEND to disagree with everything I say, I can respond adaquately.

Lets start over.

Youre ugly.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

If you WANT to argue with me, at least let me know beforehand...

Now that I see that you INTEND to disagree with everything I say, I can respond adaquately.

Lets start over.

Youre ugly.

You're a doo-doo head.

Smooth Criminal

 

[tekkie]

so whens the new tier list coming out huh huh huh?

 

[da K.I.D.]

you're A Doo-doo Head.

Smooth Criminal

Nuh-uh

Ur A Doo-doo Head!

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you WANT to argue with me, at least let me know beforehand...

Now that I see that you INTEND to disagree with everything I say, I can respond adaquately.

Lets start over.

Youre ugly.

Not trying to argue, just saying, "be nice".


As a fellow Christian, is that too much to ask. Give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he just misunderstands the game at a basic level and is very stubborn.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Benefit of the doubt...

Thats like me not flaming that dude Tekkie for asking the same question at least 50 other people have asked...

But you dont get the benefit of the doubt after repeated consistent offences.



Oh and to answer your question tekkie, all I can tell you is that it just got delayed a day because you asked...

also, im still holding firm to my belief that the mods and such are going to have a tier list related april fools prank this year.

 

[demonictoonlink]

da K.I.D., do YOU know when the new tier list is coming out?

 

[Javon89]

da K.I.D., do YOU know when the new tier list is coming out?

Lol it's been soo long but I'll wait for that BRoom to take their time.

 

[HeroMystic]

People never go to the General Brawl forum anymore.

March 15th is the deadline. It'll probably come out sooner than that.

 

[Espy Rose]

I've been told by two BBRs that Sonic is not in low tier this list.

Perhaps on the NEXT tier list, they'll learn.

Hmmm...I'm feeling deja vu.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Benefit of the doubt...

Thats like me not flaming that dude Tekkie for asking the same question at least 50 other people have asked...

But you dont get the benefit of the doubt after repeated consistent offences.

Eh, the thing is, he's done nothing to show that this doubt is misplaced, he's just theorycrafted badly, taking the same general approach to it.

If anything, the more he talks, the more likely it seems that he's intelligent, just brilliantly wrong because of a fundamental misunderstanding in how to model this game properly.


Cool?