The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[HeroMystic]

If he's uninformed then he honestly shouldn't be saying anything by indirectly attacking Mario mains and shooting in the dark. This type of theorycrafting is what is vastly looked down upon and frankly it's an annoyance that's hard to shake off. I personally believe some characters should be lower than they are right now, but I'm not saying anything cause I don't know the ins and outs.

Hell, the Ike boards wouldn't even participate in the MU discussion and I had to represent Ike despite the fact I believed it was 60:40 Mario. We had to deal with boards that gave worse arguments back in the day and it ended up being quite civil. The Ike boards didn't even give it a try, that's how bad it was. And for Light to come in and piss all over the character is rather repulsive.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario is a very good character at pressuring defenses and getting away with it, and that is why he's underrated. His N-air, B-air, and U-air are very safe moves when spaced, the latter two end very quickly in the air, and his D-air is a very good shield pressure tool that cancels into N-air or U-air when shorthopped.

Plus, Mario has VERY good KO options. His F-smash is the 5th longest ranged F-smash in the game when reversed (Falco, Wolf, DDD, and ZSS have longer ranged F-smashes) and the massive leanback on it gives Mario one of the better charged F-smashes in the game (killing people at 80% with an up angled charged F-smash that does 20% is amazing when it outspaces almost everything in the game), and his Up-smash can slide halfway across BF in an instant while being charged, killing heavyweights in the 120s easily, and is one of the better Up-smashes out of shield.

Fireballs are virtually safe and force defensive reactions, Mario's F-tilt is a virtually safe poke that outspaces most shieldgrabs, his U-tilt, U-smash, D-air, and U-air punish airdodges incredibly easily, and Mario also has an amazing Jab cancel that can lead to an unblockable D-smash combo on almost the entire cast (except for Space animals, Falcon, and Sheik). Mario's N-air is also a near perfect edgetrap tool that beats most ledge getups besides the ledgeroll when spaced correctly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Low tier characters don't place top 8 by definition, especially in a game with 35 characters. Marios being where they are NOW suggests that they should be placed better.

For my opinion to change in two years, they'd have to be placing lower.

This is the same logic that leads me to believe that ness is the best character currently in low tier. Ive seen him get much more impressive results than anything mario has done. the first thing coming to my mind being shaky getting 5th at winter games fest in FL

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness has less range than Mario on most moves (F-air is pretty much the only exception) and attacks slower. He's only better at getting a kill easily at KO percents.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What're these tools you're referring to? I've already explained how narrow the usage for cape teleport is...it's really only effective in the Marth match-up, and even there it has strict spacing and even less lenient timing.

I personally believe the Mario community has done a fantastic job so far in unlocking the potential of his two unpredictable tools thus far and are continuing to do so. It's more the fault of those who write off these great techniques as "gimmicks" or "unreliable" and disregard them than the Marios who put forth the effort to discover them.

I see them figuring out tools, I just don't see them using them, and that's the real issue, because I think mario mains would be doing a heck of a lot better if they starting applying them on a consistent basis.



Why does it only work on those characters? Never heard that and I troll the mario boards pretty regularly.

 

[Matador]

This is the same logic that leads me to believe that ness is the best character currently in low tier. Ive seen him get much more impressive results than anything mario has done. the first thing coming to my mind being shaky getting 5th at winter games fest in FL

You're entitled to your opinion, I believe Ness is also underrated. (I say a lot of characters are underrated...because I believe many more are overrated...)

I personally believe Mario is the better character though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ness has less range than Mario on most moves (F-air is pretty much the only exception) and attacks slower. He's only better at getting a kill easily at KO percents.

Quality > Quantity, bro.

Mario could be better at every aspect of the game but this quote right here explains why ness is a better character. For me at least.

 

[Matador]

Quality > Quantity, bro.

Mario could be better at every aspect of the game but this quote right here explains why ness is a better character. For me at least.

Because of Fair?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's F-air isn't all that great. The damage isn't very consistent, and it has significantly more commitment than other stuff that exists in this game. A lot of characters can just trade hits with it and win damage furthermore since it doesn't have particularly good range when used in approaches.

Plus, Ness sucks a LOT at juggles.

 

[HeroMystic]

This is the same logic that leads me to believe that ness is the best character currently in low tier. Ive seen him get much more impressive results than anything mario has done. the first thing coming to my mind being shaky getting 5th at winter games fest in FL

You may want to check that.

Brawl Singles (89 entrants)
1. Mew2King -Metaknight
2. Seibrik - Metaknight
3. CO18 - Dedede
4. Ultimate Razer - Snake
5. Gnes - Diddy Kong
5. Lee Martin - Metaknight/Lucario
7. HrNut - Snake
7. Ally - Snake
9. Chaz - Marth/Metaknight
9. Nick Riddle - Zero suit Samus
9. Kismet - Falco
9. Mero - Donkey Kong/Metaknight
13. Shaky - Ness
13. BigLou - Luigi
13. Masky - Wario
13. GDX - Diddy Kong
17. Kyon - Peach
17. Dphat - Metaknight/Wario
17. Redhalberd - Metaknight
17. Kith - Pokemon trainer

Also:

Bushido Nibai Impact 3
January 30-31st 2010
Entry fee : 10euros
Attendants : 105


1- Kaos (MK)
2- Leon (Peach/Marth)
3- iStudying (ICs/Diddy)
4- Mr. R (Marth)
5- Irios (Mario) <----- ****
5- Glutonny (Wario)
7- Charby (MK)
7- Neath (MK)

And he even forfeited because he had to go XDDDDD

wut?

 

[Nova9000]

After seeing Matador this weekend, I wanna main Mario now lol...

 

[Matador]

After seeing Matador this weekend, I wanna main Mario now lol...

Lmao, thanks dude. Why didn't you stay longer?

Edit @ Adumbrodeus: Actually...it looks like you're right about cape-teleport. The timing seems to be eluding me extremely consistently...but it works on more than the handful I suggested.

My mistake.

 

[YagamiLight]

Matador, just don't. -.> Light is extremely biased against Mario which is why I don't ever bother arguing with him. He treats Mario just like how people treat Ike and say "just Powershield." Funny part is he's extremely biased because he doesn't like his voice when he jumps around.

A very good lesson as to why I should not make jokes online. Did you really think I don't like the character overall because of a jumping sound ?

I missed this.

You're dumb.

I think I said like 10 times that I don't know very much about Mario (or at least as much as those who play Mario do[and let's be fair, please do not expect me to), there's no need to attack me over it, really.

Although your suggestion that I "piss" all over the character makes me wonder if you might just like the character a bit too much and whatever I say sounds like poison...

I'm pretty much done here, though. I'm up for a conversation in PMs if you are, of course.

 

[HeroMystic]

A very good lesson as to why I should not make jokes online. Did you really think I don't like the character overall because of a jumping sound ?

I've seen worse. Seriously speaking though, you have admitted to negative bias.

I think I said like 10 times that I don't know very much about Mario (or at least as much as those who play Mario do[and let's be fair, please do not expect me to), there's no need to attack me over it, really.

Again, all that means is you really shouldn't bash or downplay him as if you do know.

Although your suggestion that I "piss" all over the character makes me wonder if you might just like the character a bit too much and whatever I say sounds like poison...

Nah. Like I said, I'm a realist. I'm not a blind fanboy who will rawr at any negative (and cry in my sleep). I tend to look at the situation at how it is and learn from it. What gives me a negative feeling is the Mario boards being too lazy to do that themselves, and then false information being thrown out as facts.

I also learned being a douchebag on the internet is 10x more effective than being polite.

 

[Masky]

This is the same logic that leads me to believe that ness is the best character currently in low tier. Ive seen him get much more impressive results than anything mario has done. the first thing coming to my mind being shaky getting 5th at winter games fest in FL

1. winter game fest is a west coast tournament.
2. shaky got 13th at winterfest

 

[Nova9000]

Lmao, thanks dude. Why didn't you stay longer?

I had to get my car lol. I was riding with AO1. And he's a bit irresponsible. Plus Sassy lost my # again so I didn't know he has throwing anything on Sat.

 

[JayBee]

yeah, i think Mario is a fun character, and has tools to rack up damage, but so far, i haven't seen his gimp tools used like i feel it could. or maybe its not something you can use a bunch anyways. matador, I picked him up for fun so next time we play you got to see me in Mario dittos, 5 coin money match lol

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Mario dittos, 5 coin money match lol

wait 5 pennys? or mario world esk coins lololo

 

[Xebenkeck]

Ness has less range than Mario on most moves (F-air is pretty much the only exception) and attacks slower. He's only better at getting a kill easily at KO percents.

The only real advantages ness has on the cast is his collective grab frame data, dash grab range, low aerial landing lag, and 2 massive disjoints on dair and fair.

Far in contrast to his many weaknesses,

IMO Mario > Ness

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

BoX7 is a very good Mario, he beat my Lucario without much trouble. He CP's Wario and R.O.B. for bad MU's, yet I used Link against his Wario and was doing kinda ok, but I like facing his Mario much more.

Also Legan 2-0'd Boss with Link yesterday, lol.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He certainly isn't the worst but he needs to listen to people who main the characters more than use his own opinion all of the time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Don't even get the dude started on Ike. It would be laughable if I wasn't busy facepalming/raging every time he writes a post. I mean, you know it's bad if I consider Inui more knowledgeable about Ike than A2. And I think Inui is a complete and utter joke of a backroom member.

 

[stingers]

i wonder what a2zomg has to say about rob

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't even get the dude started on Ike. It would be laughable if I wasn't busy facepalming/raging every time he writes a post. I mean, you know it's bad if I consider Inui more knowledgeable about Ike than A2. And I think Inui is a complete and utter joke of a backroom member.

I actually respect his opinion more for the fact Inui thinks Ike is bottom 5 in the game.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Don't even get the dude started on Ike. It would be laughable if I wasn't busy facepalming/raging every time he writes a post. I mean, you know it's bad if I consider Inui more knowledgeable about Ike than A2. And I think Inui is a complete and utter joke of a backroom member.

<content redacted>

I like you people.

Post more please?

 

[Matador]

yeah, i think Mario is a fun character, and has tools to rack up damage, but so far, i haven't seen his gimp tools used like i feel it could. or maybe its not something you can use a bunch anyways. matador, I picked him up for fun so next time we play you got to see me in Mario dittos, 5 coin money match lol

Lol, screw Brawl XD

Moar Carl v V-13
Our matches were too much fun.

In all seriousness, I'll bring 5 pennies just for you next tourney I'm at, lol

BoX7 is a very good Mario, he beat my Lucario without much trouble. He CP's Wario and R.O.B. for bad MU's, yet I used Link against his Wario and was doing kinda ok, but I like facing his Mario much more.

Also Legan 2-0'd Boss with Link yesterday, lol.

Bo is an amazing Mario...maybe top 3 in the nation.

And Legan is hella legit...I wish I would've found some way to make that tourney. I would've been able to play BO X7 and maybe MM Legan amongst others I wanted to Brawl...

And can we stop bashing A2Z? I think Nid came in just to speak on him specifically...Ness' Fair doesn't do outright damage...it works like Mario's Dair in the way that it deals it.

Ness' Fair IS a pretty committed move, much like Mario's Fludd works if you manage to get close.

Ness' Fair IS vulnerable to trading hits and losing due to the way it deals its damage.

Ness' Fair has great range for zoning and brick walls, but for approaching, it's more vulnerable to OOS options and longer ranged attacks...

It's not like anything he said is outright incorrect or inaccurate. He's just more blunt than your average poster...he doesn't sugarcoat...much like Yuna when he posted here.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I actually respect his opinion more for the fact Inui thinks Ike is bottom 5 in the game.

A2 thinks Ike is 3rd worse.

Ike is D tier. Nobody below him should be above him currently, and the only character who might drop below him is Zelda, with a very outside chance of Bowser dropping below him.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So, Scabe is placing high in Australia.

Link go up?

 

[stingers]

has everyone seen the video of scabe wrecking shaya?

sooo good.

 

[YagamiLight]

A2 thinks Ike is 3rd worse.

Ike is D tier. Nobody below him should be above him currently, and the only character who might drop below him is Zelda, with a very outside chance of Bowser dropping below him.

I can see Bowser going one spot or two below Ike (due to lack of representation) and Zelda is probably going to E tier (though I don't think she deserves it). The only other two characters that I could even see below Ike that are currently above him [with the way the SBR tier lists are made, not in my imaginary tier list in my head] are probably Pokemon Trainer and Sonic, who I think were placed too high to begin with last list. Top of D is probably what Ike'll end up as, E tier is most likely not happening (w00t) and while you can present a case for Ike being in the same category the guys in C tier I think high D tier is the safest bet.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

has everyone seen the video of scabe wrecking shaya?

sooo good.

I haven't.

Got a link?

 

[Kupo Rose]

I haven't.

Got a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bob3QsAGWE

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bob3QsAGWE

Scabe is too good.

 

[YagamiLight]

That made me think Link is a good character.

jkjk but I'm sure most of us can agree that he's not the second worst in the game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

i wonder what a2zomg has to say about rob

ROB is probably upper C tier.

He gets infinited by a few characters (including Samus and Captain Falcon lol) and **** juggled in some other high tier matchups that also KO him much more efficiently than he can gimp/KO them, but is otherwise an okay character. His camping doesn't really threaten people that much,, and he has glaring blindspots and a bad shield, but he does at least have a solid ground poke game and reliable KO setups.

His matchups in the C tier itself aren't that dominating for the most part, so I think he belongs there. As for who belongs in the C tier, Pierce7d made a post a long time ago about his tier impressions. I'd agree with what he had there, only I'd probably put Sheik and Peach up in the B tier.

 

[da K.I.D.]

my fault on the shaky comment, but im still pretty sure that he did get 5th at some really big tourney, but excuse my misinformation.

and what I was trying to say was that I feel like I see more consistent better placing nesses than marios. and what makes him better than mario is his ability to wall people with low lag aerials, and kill probably the easiest out of any low tier character.

because even though those are only two factors out of a multitude of things that go into the game, those are two of the most important aspects of the game.

 

[Justblaze647]

That made me think Link is a good character.

jkjk but I'm sure most of us can agree that he's not the second worst in the game.

I still think Link is better than Jiggs...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ness's F-air has low ending lag, but it's not that great for approaching, and his other aerials have like no range at all. His N-air doesn't have safe landing lag anyhow. I think you should be aware, Mario's U-smash does in fact beat Ness's F-air.

Mario also can wall with low lag aerials quite well, and combos better off of aerials due to having less ending lag, and his Cape is very disjointed and very useful for avoiding all sorts of traps and screwing up shieldgrab attempts.

Ness can only get a kill easily with B-throw at 120-140% depending on weight class/stage position, so if you can just stay in the air a lot and avoid his grab, then he actually starts having trouble scoring a kill easily, especially since his juggling is not very good and because his range is crap on virtually everything.

Mario at any rate is not terrible at kills. He has some of the best reasons in the game to charge his F-smash and U-smash due to the area he's able to control while charging those moves. Assuming of course he can set up a spaced F-smash or Sliding Up-smash, those kill a fair bit earlier than Ness's more reliable stuff. Yeah, it's not exactly always easy for Mario to set those up, but I blame that more on the skill required to know when to pull those off. Applied properly Mario can be punishing virtually anything with his F-smash and U-smash for kills. Furthermore Mario has a Jab cancel to D-smash on almost the entire cast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bo is an amazing Mario...maybe top 3 in the nation.

And Legan is hella legit...I wish I would've found some way to make that tourney. I would've been able to play BO X7 and maybe MM Legan amongst others I wanted to Brawl...

I played him last Saturday at M.A.S., he is mad good with Mario. Now I know why people say he has a good gimp game.

A2 thinks Ike is 3rd worse.

Ike is D tier. Nobody below him should be above him currently, and the only character who might drop below him is Zelda, with a very outside chance of Bowser dropping below him.

Well oh well, I tend to listen to people who main the characters or people who actively play against them more than anyone else, unless of course the person is talking in gibberish.

That made me think Link is a good character.

jkjk but I'm sure most of us can agree that he's not the second worst in the game.

I just pretend Link is a good character or just don't care if he is bad, lol.

I agree he's not second worst, only character I can actually debate him being above is Falcon, the rest are harder to debate if he really could go higher than Jiggs and co.

 

[A2ZOMG]

As for Ike, I'd like someone to explain to me how this character isn't the 3rd worst character in the game when he basically has the worst juggling/edgeguarding (this character is the only character in the game that can't do two aerials in a fullhop, and his jumps don't go very high), only two moves that hit before reaction time (besides his rather uninspiring grab), and when those two moves he has are not actually safe on block.

And furthermore he doesn't have a legit approach.

So anyhow against good opponents who treat most of Ike's moves like slow shortranged projectiles, he basically has Jab and B-air, the latter of which is only safe if he ever manages to retreat it. And his Jab either gets SDIed or shieldgrabbed against someone who expects it to be coming and doesn't just jump into the **** (for the record, as long as your grab is at least as fast as Bowser's, you can shieldgrab Ike's fist as he Jabs). This isn't even that hard to do.

Anyhow, I think it's worth noting this:

I like ike in balanced brawl, but the character is still pretty ayuss in general. I'm fine with the way he is though.

But think of it this way, aside from back air none of his aerials come out before frame 19, and if you hit ike, his back is obviously not to you so he cant respond to most juggle attempts with anything other than air dodge, which someone will catch on and wait out. After a couple of times, he'll attempt to aerial instead, and get dodged on reaction or the juggler will just land and shield the obvious aerial. Also his jab combo is not a combo, people need to realize this. First jab gets SDIed so hard by the people I play that I feel sad seeing people get jab trapped at all nowadays. It causes me to play overly cautious against people who don't respond correctly and I get smacked around for not overcomitting. Lack of knowledge is the only reason ike gets by in any game.

If ike air dodges and you were waiting, you're just going to hit him out of his air dodge's recovery, it's the same concept behind juggling snake, and snake has faster aerials than ike does aside from fair. If ike just falls and does nothing, well now you're in the air and have to worry about.. nothing, because the fastest thing ike can do while he's under you is up tilt, and you're just going to land outside of his up tilt range, which coincidentally puts you out of jab range.

So yeah ADHD definitely Powershielded the hell out of 80% of my fairs last time I played his ICs with Ike. Now that I think of it so did mintyflesh. Garbz tier?

Ganondorf is almost better than Ike, except for the fact he doesn't have an answer to those who spotdodge on reaction because his Jab and grab are the worst in the game, and also because his recovery is more gimpable. You look at the rest of Ganon's moves and strategies outside of boxing, and it's just clearly better than what Ike can do. Ganon actually has existent juggles and edgeguards and (unsafe) powerful setups into KO moves. He's not quite as easy to juggle for free thanks to N-air and aerial wizkick.

If Ganon had a safe move that worked on spotdodges, he would have easily been better than Ike. The differences between how fail these two characters are fundamentally is pretty small, and Ganon even goes about neutral with Ike. Solo Zelda at any rate I believe goes between these two characters, as she lacks mobility and good aerial pressure and approaches to really stop people from camping, and her recovery is awful due to how floaty she is and how limited she is when you hog the ledge.