The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Kewkky]

Peach, Sheik, Wolf, Fox in my opinion, Peach being the best.


Man, she's pretty crazy at top levels...

 

[Conviction]

I agree.

(2/3 means can be each one 2nd or 3rd)

1)Peach
2/3)Shiek
2/3)Fox
4) Wolf

Match-ups

Peach goes even with Fox.... XD that's much all know about that Idk about Peach vs. Shiek,
Shiek counters Fox and Wolf.... Shiek vs. Peach is.....
Fox goes even with Peach, 55:45 Fox against Wolf.
Wolf, Shiek beats him hard, Fox is slight dis adv., and Peach idk about >.<

XD I'm too clueless on Peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach goes even with Fox
Slight advantage on shiek
For wolf that would need to be taled about again. Last time Peach seriously talked about wolf was like. 2009. So we had it as wolf having a slight advantage. But with what I seen now and done, Peach beats wolf. But not sure by how much.

 

[Conviction]

I would actually hope sometime soon Fox and Peaches would re-discuss the match-up cause last we did was actually I think back in 08 T.T

 

[Dark.Pch]

I believ that match up was discuss sometime in 09

 

[SnackAttack]

Opinions on my top ten?

 

[SnackAttack]

1. MK (He's MK, he's just broken.)
2. Snake (Still a solid character, great stage control and edgeguarding options)
3. Diddy (Broken, and he would be number two or maybe even number one if CPs weren't so bad for him)
4. Wario (Heavy, yet fast, many approach options, good recovery, decent ground game, amazing air game, but he has some difficult matchups)
5. Ice Climbers( When used right, the Ice Climbers are certainly deadly, they have desynchronized Blizzard walls, an amazing Chaingrab, and some other good options for them)
6. Falco (Lasers help approach and he can camp with them, he has a good spike, and he has the chaingrab too.)
7. Marth (Fast, has good range, and a all-around good metagame in which he can easily transfer from Air to ground combat. )
8.King DeDeDe( King DeDeDe is an all around great character, but he suffers from poor mobility, some pretty bad matchups, and he relies on his chaingrab a little too much sometimes which can be detrimental to him if the stage doesn't allow him to chaingrab, like Japes. His recovery while good, is also very predictable.)
9. Pikachu (Fast, High Priority, Versatile projectile. and nice Quick Attack mindgames.)
10. Olimar (Olimar is interesting, he is no doubt an excellent character on stage who can really **** your day up if you're not careful, but as we all know, his recovery is trash, which keeps him from being higher in my opinion.)

This is my opinion.

 

[St. Viers]

Although I know what you mean by "mindgames" try to be more specific. Pikachu's QAC gives him "mindgames" in that it gives him a fast, variable approach (or retreat), as well as an excellent spacing tool.

I'd put falco over the IC, and I'm not sure that Olimar deserves top 10.

 

[SnackAttack]

He can use Quick Attack to approach, retreat, he can go under the stage if you're good enough at it, it does damage, and it can be quite hard to predict.

What makes Olimar not deserve top ten in your opinion?

and why would you put Falco over the ICs?

 

[<π]

quick attack is a less than stealar approach tool IMO. but yeah you can quickly and safely change positions on the stage with it. Once you are familiar with upB its reall nothing more than a fancy light show. far from anything to be afraid of.

 

[etecoon]

1. MK (He's MK, he's just broken.)
2. Snake (Still a solid character, great stage control and edgeguarding options)
3. Diddy (Broken, and he would be number two or maybe even number one if CPs weren't so bad for him)
4. Wario (Heavy, yet fast, many approach options, good recovery, decent ground game, amazing air game, but he has some difficult matchups)
5. Ice Climbers( When used right, the Ice Climbers are certainly deadly, they have desynchronized Blizzard walls, an amazing Chaingrab, and some other good options for them)
6. Falco (Lasers help approach and he can camp with them, he has a good spike, and he has the chaingrab too.)
7. Marth (Fast, has good range, and a all-around good metagame in which he can easily transfer from Air to ground combat. )
8.King DeDeDe( King DeDeDe is an all around great character, but he suffers from poor mobility, some pretty bad matchups, and he relies on his chaingrab a little too much sometimes which can be detrimental to him if the stage doesn't allow him to chaingrab, like Japes. His recovery while good, is also very predictable.)
9. Pikachu (Fast, High Priority, Versatile projectile. and nice Quick Attack mindgames.)
10. Olimar (Olimar is interesting, he is no doubt an excellent character on stage who can really **** your day up if you're not careful, but as we all know, his recovery is trash, which keeps him from being higher in my opinion.)

1. that he is

2/3. I think diddy is better than snake, snake suffers from bad stages too and I think diddy is more solid overall and has a better MU with meta. I think most people aren't ready to agree with this yet but I believe that as time goes on snake's stock will fall, his options in too many situations are too easy to read

4. sometimes I debate putting wario over snake too...more stage CP resilient than diddy or snake, maybe even MK, but not as good to begin with

5. broken on neutrals, weakness to counterpicks make this character somewhat tolerable

6. if not for a couple matchups I'd consider falco 2 or 3 and better than snake, for overall tools I'd think him better but the IC's are too ridiculous for him

7. about right

8. DDD just shuts some characters down so hard with so little...bad matchups with a lot of characters though, I think he's among the best secondaries but not amazing as a main character

9. everything you said about pika + ridiculous chain grabs, I might put him above DDD but I don't know the character(pika) that well

10. olimar I feel is a little overrated but I'm not sure who I'd replace him with, it's pretty wide open at this point to me, it could be like 5 characters.

 

[Conviction]

I believ that match up was discuss sometime in 09

Mid or early '09? Well whenever JigglyZelda start using Fox as a secondary was during the time of the MU discussion but it feels so long ago. I might be wrong anyways XD.


EDIT: I wanna re-discuss it anyways

 

[<π]

sheik, espeacially once you include zelda has very few bad match ups. MK I think is the worse and we have grab release walk offs on him and can kill him around 80 out of a grab, god willing.

Good camp game good approach game, good defensive options. Only think lacking now for sheik as a whole is safe kill moves and even that is becoming less and less true in a lot of match ups since jab and ftilt combos directly into some of her strongest kill moves. upB another decently powered kill move is relatively safe on wiff and completely invincible.

not to mention the ability to turn into zelda for a few match ups. or double switching to turn fair and bair back into kill moves. sheik is crazy under rated right now. However, like I said I'll change that though.

 

[etecoon]

out of curiosity, what MU's other than IC's is zelda preferable in? I only know that she's significantly worse than sheik in general and I've heard that she's better in that one, where else does she help?

I agree sheik is crazy underrated though, not enough people play her, I've only played like 2-3 that were really good this whole time

 

[Zankoku]

It's good to transform at higher percents for characters like Dedede, who don't have the mobility to rushdown or pressure Zelda properly.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im of the opinion that any match shiek loses, zelda loses equally as bad, or worst. except with the ICs which she loses slightly less to.

zelda is really REALLY bad. and having a couple decent kill moves doesnt really change that

 

[<π]

ICs and Pika. Sheik's "unwinables"

people also say d3, I think sheik does better prob even kills better in that match up, plus a way easier time recovering.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zelda isn't that bad, stop being a bandwagoner.

 

[Conviction]

Ok I hear you. I guess my cue when I'm supposed to throw Fox's options out on the table >.<

Fox amazing speed and pressure game, one of the few characters that can easily punish landing lag.

Using his speed moves that used to be safe don't become as safe as they used to be. Lol this may sound really biased coming from me since I made the move (I didn't name it though >.>)but Delux Sunshine Combo as I start to use in games I think is fairly underrated, given it's not as safe infront of a persons shield but can with ease break a person's sheild from behind, and using Fox's speed it should be too hard to get behind a person's shield.

Punishing landing lag is self explaintory.

Another point is Fox does pretty well against high tiers and can hang with them. Snake vs. Fox is even but IMO i think it's Fox's adv. Wario vs. Fox 55:45? I forgot which ones favor, Rob vs. Fox 55:45 Fox slight adv. and recently the MK MU number has been slowly becoming better for Fox.

Fox IMO has one of the best camping games and when best fits the situtatoin he can switch the number of lasers he uses when SHs and he is mobilty change can be used to space with lasers, smart Foxes know that SHSL gives you the most mobility, SHDL gives a mid mobility, and SHTL gives you the least.

Lacking soild approaches and range is a heart breaker for Fox and gets punished on shield a lot. Only three approaches that I can think of know (and are painfully telegraphed at times) SH Lagless Fair, SH Lagless Bair and Dash Shield Grab.

Another con, the one that holds him back the most are the locks 2 chars have on him, Shiek's Ftilt Lock and Pika's Chaingrab (for those wondering what happened to ZSS Dsmash lock Foxes had a recent discussion with ZSSes and they said it's either even or Fox adv. due to the Fox of his speed and the Dsmash being TOO situtational even Snakeeee said he rather just CP Fox and if that's not proof enough idk what is.) but on the bright side (at least what I've seen) their aren't too many Shieks and Pikas running around.

Also a down side is Fox is heavily under-repped.

This a mid-point but Fox's Recovery is pretty versital Rising Fair gives soooo many Recovery options, FireFox, and an Illision that has cancelable spots, but certain characters can dispose of a recovering Fox better than others.

Fox I think is Top C Tier or somewhere in B Tier material.

I think that's about right.

Any Wolf experts that wanna put in Wolf's Story?

EDIT: Personally I know Zelda's bad but not Ganon-bad. I think 5 spots down is good actually. Not that she made the pummel all by herself but some chars. are movin up.

 

[Dark.Pch]

ICs and Pika. Sheik's "unwinables"

people also say d3, I think sheik does better prob even kills better in that match up, plus a way easier time recovering.

Shiek Does not Kill DDD better than Zelda. What Moves does shiek has that pwn zelda for killing. You have one kill move that Up smash. Cahracters like DDD die better off the sides.

Zelda has her upsmash, Down smash, and if you can land it on the Fat duck, F/bair.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Zelda isn't that bad, stop being a bandwagoner.

Thank you.

It's been said a million times: Zelda sucks, but she doesn't suck as bad as a lot of people say she does. 3 or 4 places below where she is now sounds about right.

 

[etecoon]

Any Wolf experts that wanna put in Wolf's Story?

wolf is amazing on wifi

 

[Conviction]

XD anyone wanna give smash background info on Wolf?

 

[<π]

Shiek Does not Kill DDD better than Zelda. What Moves does shiek has that pwn zelda for killing. You have one kill move that Up smash. Cahracters like DDD die better off the sides.

Zelda has her upsmash, Down smash, and if you can land it on the Fat duck, F/bair.

I think it's going to be harder to land those moves though. sheik actually kills lower than any of zelda's stuff with usmash I believe with the exception of uair I suppose. and ftilt to usmash is far from hard to do on D3. You can also jab into kills which again is crazy easy on d3;s huge frame.

Zelda isn't a bad choice but I don't wanna be down thrown off stage and die either at some low percent.

 

[St. Viers]

fox is an amazing character to have as a secondary. If only pika wasn't such an obnoxious matchup for him.

 

[Conviction]

Good for most Fox mains Pika's don't show up often and actually the CG and be simply dealt with camping like a MOFO on FD/Rainbow Cruise or picking SV and camp the moving platform. XD

 

[<π]

I second wolf. he us a very very safe character and with bair he can rack a lot of damage very safely. his grab is amazing in that it refreshes his moves and his down throw deals huge damage and sets up for edge gaurds. his jab is really good with alazing range and above average speed. he has a slew of kill moves so even if you can't get that grab to refresh bair you can still get a kill with fair or dsmash.

Lazer is an amazing trancendant projectile so it beats tornado and all other moves unlike the other spacies you can also maneuver in the air with it which bring me to aerial mobility. You can move so fast and change direction very quickly. this maximizes the effective ness of bair tremendously

people like to claim recover is a big weakness for him. I beg to differ his recover is leauges above falcos. canceld flash goes so far... it is angle which lets you recover below the stage with the option of going on stage or grabing the edge which is huge. Fire Wolf ? is lacking in that the sweet spot is small, but spare that it is not too different from fire fox. with experince you start to learn your angles and all that stuff and that small grab box just becomes something you work with.

Shine is a neat move that acts as a soort of counter. hip. you can use it while recovering even to evade gimp attemps. or on stage when you expect a big attack you other wize would be unable to avoid like say... mks fsmash.

Overall wolf is great. Amazingly safe, but can rack big damage and kill pretty well. his weight class and recovery let him live up to pretty decent percents even against the likes of snake.

 

[<π]

Good for most Fox mains Pika's don't show up often and actually the CG and be simply dealt with camping like a MOFO on FD/Rainbow Cruise or picking SV and camp the moving platform. XD

don't pick raibow versus pika... he can chain pretty much everything on that stage as it starts to move down... so a free kill pretty much if he finishes with usmash.

 

[Conviction]

Mind also telling us what Wolf is lacking in?

Also DP can you tell us what Peach is lacking in?

EDIT: You can survive the Usmash. FD gives Fox the room to camp and use his speed to dodge pika's (lol) grab range.

 

[etecoon]

unlike the other spacies you can also maneuver in the air with it which bring me to aerial mobility.

what? (edit: you're refering to b reversal? because falco and fox and jump back and forth while lasering too...)

and the blaster isn't that good IMO, it might prevent meta knight from approaching you with tornado all day but you shouldn't be camping anyone with it...I use it a bit as a poke when I play wolf to apply a little pressure when they've gotten some distance and I use it against people off stage, but I don't think it's "amazing"

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I personally kill with sheik vs D3's. Up b'ing King D3 out of his recovery. Its easier I feel for Sheik as its a larger target for Up smashes.

 

[Kewkky]

Fox is a good character, but not AMAZING. There's a reason he's so low in our tier list, and why he's not placing decently in every tourney they run into.

Edit: man, I take too long to answer. This was directed at St. Viers, btw.

 

[<π]

he does have problems with getting gimped. a lot of match ups where he is gayed by s chain or a lock for an extended period of time sheik wolf pika peach wario.

low angle knock back stuff sucks for him since his recover is mostly vertical. think bowser and dk but to a lesser extent.

 

[Conviction]

Never said he was S/A tier. Top C Tier or Mid-Bottom B tier sounds right. And besides the obv. Sheik and Pika problem, what other MU's does Fox have against him.

 

[<π]

what? (edit: you're refering to b reversal? because falco and fox and jump back and forth while lasering too...)

and the blaster isn't that good IMO, it might prevent meta knight from approaching you with tornado all day but you shouldn't be camping anyone with it...I use it a bit as a poke when I play wolf to apply a little pressure when they've gotten some distance and I use it against people off stage, but I don't think it's "amazing"

you can when you shoot a lazer as fox or falco you can no longer influence your direction you are commited to where ever you are going.

as wolf even after you press B you can still move around in the air to position yourself where ever you like

 

[<π]

I think the peach chain works on fox. but that isn't too bad.

 

[etecoon]

true, but it's still pretty easy to PS and can be punished from a pretty good range by a lot of characters, as I said it has it's uses, I just wouldn't call it amazing...I think I like it more as a ranged anti-air than on the ground a lot of the time...

 

[Conviction]

I still believe Fox's Laser is the best. Faster fire rate seems to do it three differnet lasering options in a SH, which will put more % than Wolf's or Falco's laser.

In the future I can more of Falco's Lasers being PS'd but you could do the same to Fox's lasers but to a much lesser extent. (Now that I think about wouldn't it put the PSer in a bad position due to Fox can now react and punish the PS because the User still gets the little projectile lag and Fox may have enough to run in and do something from the right distance.....would like Ankoku to test that one for me.)


EDIT: We will see about peach.... I think their is time to SDI and Shine the next hit JUST maybe. It would be a tight frame fight though.

 

[etecoon]

falco's lasers are the best because they put you in a frame trap, even if you powershield, you can get punished or falco can escape if you don't react instantly with the right move. fox's are good for racking up damage and forcing an approach but don't actually protect him in the same way, so IMO falco > fox > wolf as far as lasers go

 

[DMG]

If Fox were to punish someone for PSing, he would have to be so close that using laser in the first place would be redundant. Not to mention he would only be able to do this on a laser that occurs as he falls, fairly close to the ground.