The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wrong, Legendary. Mindgames aren't simply 'reading the other person', that in itself is often referred to 'your opponent is playing predictably'. There are lots of branches under the Mindgames category, but it is generally referred to as 'playing with a situation to gain something from it' when in a competitive game. Footsies is 'weaving in and out of your opponents' maximum range to bait them into doing an attack, which you would then punish (as seen by Wario)', Zoning is 'scaring your opponent into a smaller area where he will be in an undesirable position, with hard-to-punish attacks (as seen by Marth and MK)', and there are more that fall under other sub-categories. It might be an overused term that has been coined once and again by different players (oops, I accidentally hit my c-stick and fsmashed him. What should I say? Uhh... "MINDGAMES"), but the real definition can be found if you really want to look for it. Don't expect a thread or a reply to come up sooner or later explaining what you can research, you won't better yourself as a player if you do just that.

And like I said, people don't use it in Match-Up discussions because MUs are character-specific, and mindgames are dependent on players.

So now mindgames is this big universal umberella that you throw everything under and it is still over used. Whatever but we do agree "mindgames" is dependent upon the player. I space really well that = mindgames ???

 

[RATED]

Mind games has nothing to do with a match up. Nor is it an advanced player based tactics. It's an overused term that is basically you just reading the other person.

hi, I know what u mean, is just that the smash community call it mindgames when the correct word or the best term to use is Yomi Layers here u all have this : http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-yomi-spies-of-the-mind.html

 

[Zankoku]

Yomi is a really silly term to use. Can't you just say "read" in your own language?

 

[Chuee]

this is REALLY faulty logic.

you have a 2 frame jab with mediocre range that does 12(?)% and resets the situation to nuetral. It has slightly less range. It puts Ike at a distance from Lucas so then Lucas can force Ike to approach again.

ike has a 3 frame jab that has as much or more range than all your ground moves that does at least, not counting jab cancel options, and puts you in the air, which for lucas is a very bad position in this match. Ike's jab sends Lucas away. If Ike tries jab canceling I can DI out of it. Also being in the air is in no way a bad situation in this MU.

f tilt had about the same range as ikes jab but once again, its slower, doesnt do as much damage, and doesnt have nearly as good setup options out of it. Ftilt has more range than Ike's first jab. At low % Ftilt combos into a few things.

Ikes 3rd jab can be shield grabbed... thats nice, too bad good ikes never hit people with the third jab unless the other two hit first... so that basically a moot point.

Comments in blue.

 

[Wulfy07]

The only that goes for Lucas in that match up is projectiles. If it's all A attacks, I'd think the match would be pretty difficult.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

To be fair, accounting for mindgames in a matchup is like claiming players who use one character are consistently smarter than players who use the other (that's not to say that isn't true ; j), so it's entirely reasonable to completely disregard them when discussing matchups. However, mixups and by extension variety of options is a tangible thing that can be evaluated in matchups.

I have to agree with this. I think people often confuse a good PLAYER for a good CHARACTER.

 

[DanGR]

It's very possible to consistently DI out Lucas' jab and punish him for using it, Chuee. 15% + potential followups and all that jazz is a pretty heavy price to pay.

 

[Chuee]

It's very possible to consistently DI out of Ike's jab.
Also if you DI out of my jab why would use the last hit.

 

[RATED]

Yomi is a really silly term to use. Can't you just say "read" in your own language?

actually in my language I have to say " leer' LOL , nah seriously yeah I use "read" too. but Yomi is kinda silly to use XD , yeah I always use the term Read , but mindgames is kinda wrong.

 

[Kewkky]

So now mindgames is this big universal umberella that you throw everything under and it is still over used. Whatever but we do agree "mindgames" is dependent upon the player. I space really well that = mindgames ???

That comment proves that you know NOTHING of how the game (or the player) works. Spacing is not mindgames, it's technical skill. You don't play around with an attack and make it unpunishable; you practice it until you know how far it reaches, how you can cross it up, where the knockback trajectory sends you, is it disjointed or not, how much damage it does, is it multi-hit, does it auto-cancel, etc.... It's dependent on a character. Mindgames is dependent on the player, so you can't practice these things like you would spacing. You develop these by keeping up with a match and 'out-smarting' your opponents.

You would say that a 'bear' is not the same as a 'wolf' , but they both fall under one huge category: animals. Would you argue that it's just to make everything look prettier, or for ease of access when we want to study them/talk about them? We COULD say "a bear is not the same as a wolf", but we CAN'T say "an animal is not the same as an animal", since it makes no sense. It's just a way of categorizing things to make it easier to talk about them, or to refer to them. People in SWF just find it easier to say "mindgames" than to bring up the proper term, or talk properly about the message they want to convey.

 

[adumbrodeus]

To be fair, accounting for mindgames in a matchup is like claiming players who use one character are consistently smarter than players who use the other (that's not to say that isn't true ; j), so it's entirely reasonable to completely disregard them when discussing matchups. However, mixups and by extension variety of options is a tangible thing that can be evaluated in matchups.

Which would be true if people didn't use the term for everything under the sun.


As it stands, how powerful your options are off a successful read is a quantifiable value, as is how much your character enhances your chances of getting a successful read.





Probably out of street fighter habit, everyone uses yomi in the street fighter community.




________________________________________________________________

In general, footsies is a lot more complex then just weaving back and forth, but it is component in it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have to agree with this. I think people often confuse a good PLAYER for a good CHARACTER.

People also like to blame the character instead of the player (themselves) when they lose.

 

[Ripple]

People also like to blame the character instead of the player (themselves) when they lose.

sometimes it is the character, but most likely not

 

[gantrain05]

sometimes it is the character, but most likely not

unless its ganon.......

 

[Dark.Pch]

sometimes it is the character, but most likely not

People blame thier character way too much. Crying about how thier characer is so horrible, how hard match ups are or how they always lose to the same players. The problem is the player, not the character.

One think I really found stupid is how you cry and ***** about your character or match ups, yet you play them.

 

[Ripple]

People blame thier character way too much. Crying about how thier characer is so horrible, how hard match ups are or how they always lose to the same players. The problem is the player, not the character.

One think I really found stupid is how you cry and ***** about your character or match ups, yet you play them.

well I only blame my character when DDD appears, that ****s ridiculous and not my fault I lose.

but then I just go fox

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach Vs Meta and Marth is crazy. Yet I have never put the blame on my character for losing that. It's my fault. I should have step it up and not play like an idiot so I could win, done. And If I get out played, I get out played. Still not gonna blame my character. No need for that and gets nothing done. Or else don't play them to begin with. Not taking responsebility for your actions and mistakes does not make you a true player/man.

 

[Kewkky]

In general, footsies is a lot more complex then just weaving back and forth, but it is component in it.

It was just a quick explanation, I didn't wanna go into details. What I explained was the gist of it, the tip of the iceberg practically. And I know a little bit about Street Fighter, we have some pretty nice players in PR who have their tourneys at the same time and location as us smashers (same as BlazBlue, Tekken6 recently, MvC2 sometimes...), so some of their talk and strategizing is overheard by us and we morph it around to smash-related terms and applications.... Yeaaaaah.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

That comment proves that you know NOTHING of how the game (or the player) works. Spacing is not mindgames, it's technical skill. You don't play around with an attack and make it unpunishable; you practice it until you know how far it reaches, how you can cross it up, where the knockback trajectory sends you, is it disjointed or not, how much damage it does, is it multi-hit, does it auto-cancel, etc.... It's dependent on a character. Mindgames is dependent on the player, so you can't practice these things like you would spacing. You develop these by keeping up with a match and 'out-smarting' your opponents.

You would say that a 'bear' is not the same as a 'wolf' , but they both fall under one huge category: animals. Would you argue that it's just to make everything look prettier, or for ease of access when we want to study them/talk about them? We COULD say "a bear is not the same as a wolf", but we CAN'T say "an animal is not the same as an animal", since it makes no sense. It's just a way of categorizing things to make it easier to talk about them, or to refer to them. People in SWF just find it easier to say "mindgames" than to bring up the proper term, or talk properly about the message they want to convey.

You're the one who said weaving in and out of aerials was "mindgames" That's just spacing. But whatever man. Push your "mindgames" rhetoric onto someone else it aint flying over here.

 

[Albert.]

You're the one who said weaving in and out of aerials was "mindgames" That's just spacing. But whatever man. Push your "mindgames" rhetoric onto someone else it aint flying over here.

...

I think "zoning" would be a better word.

Did you learn nothing from your time spent in the Marth boards?!

But whatever man. Push your "mindgames" rhetoric onto someone else it aint flying over here.

Smash boards

Where people talk stupidly.

 

[RATED]

Peach Vs Meta and Marth is crazy. Yet I have never put the blame on my character for losing that. It's my fault. I should have step it up and not play like an idiot so I could win, done. And If I get out played, I get out played. Still not gonna blame my character. No need for that and gets nothing done. Or else don't play them to begin with. Not taking responsebility for your actions and mistakes does not make you a true player/man.

LOL yeah u can play that matchup, but LOL look at the example he puts, DDD VS DK! so non of u lose or win. he have reason and u too. bcuz peach vs meta or marth is not like the **** of DK vs DDD even though I have seen DK beat ddds but that' very improbable.

 

[C.box]

Peach Vs Meta and Marth is crazy. Yet I have never put the blame on my character for losing that. It's my fault. I should have step it up and not play like an idiot so I could win, done. And If I get out played, I get out played. Still not gonna blame my character. No need for that and gets nothing done. Or else don't play them to begin with. Not taking responsebility for your actions and mistakes does not make you a true player/man.

There's a difference in dk vs d3 and peach vs mk/marth

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...

I think "zoning" would be a better word.

Did you learn nothing from your time spent in the Marth boards?!



Smash boards

Where people talk stupidly.

If you come in the *** end of the conversation you make an *** out yourself. I learned from the marth boards as long as you meatride you're excepted there.

 

[Dark.Pch]

There's a difference in dk vs d3 and peach vs mk/marth

Go up against Neo or M2K with Peach then come back to me.

 

[Zankoku]

If you come in the *** end of the conversation you make an *** out yourself. I learned from the marth boards as long as you meatride you're excepted there.

And I learned from the Staff boards that you're quite infamous in a lot of character boards.

 

[YagamiLight]

It's very possible to consistently DI out of Ike's jab.
Also if you DI out of my jab why would use the last hit.

It's possible to consistently SDI Ike's jab given that you KNOW it is coming (and more specifically, the frame it'll hit on.)

For example, you should have no problem SDIing Ike's grab release to Jab on Lucas simply because it takes over half a second from the initial release to the jab hit.

It takes superhuman reaction time to SDI the first jab if you don't have a long enough time to prepare for it, however.

 

[Kewkky]

If you come in the *** end of the conversation you make an *** out yourself. I learned from the marth boards as long as you meatride you're excepted there.

Coming out in the *** end of a conversation isn't the ONLY way people make ***** of themselves...

Albert was right on what he said, his info was precise. I don't mean to become your enemy, but... Do you think about what risks your posts have? You make such absolute statements that, if they're wrong, makes you look like a player that's 'lacking in information about the matter at hand', to put it as nicely as possible. You should make your posts more user-friendly so that people don't feel the need to join in any bandwagons. : |

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

And I learned from the Staff boards that you're quite infamous in a lot of character boards.

I know the Zelda boards hate me it's ridic. I got an infraction like every three post. If you look at my infractions 95% of them have come from the Zelda boards. I don't know if it's me of just the way they are over there because I didn't get infractions like that in the Marth boards. I was hated there also.

Coming out in the *** end of a conversation isn't the ONLY way people make ***** of themselves...

Albert was right on what he said, his info was precise. I don't mean to become your enemy, but... Do you think about what risks your posts have? You make such absolute statements that, if they're wrong, makes you look like a player that's 'lacking in information about the matter at hand', to put it as nicely as possible. You should make your posts more user-friendly so that people don't feel the need to join in any bandwagons. : |

I'm just taking your description. You said mind games was this huge compass of things then you talked about footsies and zoning and weaving out of your aerials. So basically spacing is a mind game based on the terms and descriptions you've laid out that's all.

 

[da K.I.D.]

look at kewk, always spitting the knowledge.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm just taking your description. You said mind games was this huge compass of things then you talked about footsies and zoning and weaving out of your aerials. So basically spacing is a mind game based on the terms and descriptions you've laid out that's all.

Nope, spacing isn't a mindgame... It's more like a fundamental skill that you gotta develop in order to play better. You can fair someone with Marth when they're right on top of you, but it won't be as effective as spacing one and hitting with the tipper, right? Staying outside of your opponents' ranges in case your attacks miss is one of the basics of the game. If you fall for a footsie bait, you'll still space your attack while falling into their trap... Spacing is something you develop and practice, like DI/SDI and momentum cancelling. Mindgames is more like a 'spur of the moment', that we do in the middle of a match to try and catch out opponents in something we can punish. Spacing attacks will make opponents whiff their attacks which we will then punish, right? Spacing, reaction, pattern-reading and knowledge of your opponents' moves and gameplay are the 'skills' you need to know in order to properly add 'footsies' into that match, and 'footsies' is how the action is called.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Nope, spacing isn't a mindgame... It's more like a fundamental skill that you gotta develop in order to play better. You can fair someone with Marth when they're right on top of you, but it won't be as effective as spacing one and hitting with the tipper, right? Staying outside of your opponents' ranges in case your attacks miss is one of the basics of the game. If you fall for a footsie bait, you'll still space your attack while falling into their trap... Spacing is something you develop and practice, like DI/SDI and momentum cancelling. Mindgames is more like a 'spur of the moment', that we do in the middle of a match to try and catch out opponents in something we can punish. Spacing attacks will make opponents whiff their attacks which we will then punish, right? Spacing, reaction, pattern-reading and knowledge of your opponents' moves and gameplay are the 'skills' you need to know in order to properly add 'footsies' into that match, and 'footsies' is how the action is called.

Yeah but if you're weaving in and out of you're aerials then you're also spacing and you considered that to be a mind game.

 

[Meru.]

Go up against Neo or M2K with Peach then come back to me.

As a fellow Peach main, I can assure you that there is a difference x3.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah but if you're weaving in and out of you're aerials then you're also spacing and you considered that to be a mind game.

Weaving in and out, a.k.a. "footsies" is an application of spacing to mindgames.

 

[C.J.]

AL, essentially, spacing is how you hit with the attack. Zoning, the mindgames part, is how you get into the range/get them into your range to hit with that part of the attack.

 

[Kewkky]

No, Legendary, I think you misinterpreted what I said before. Think about it this way... Doing footsies with misspaced aerials is still footsties, but you get punished. Doing footsties with properly spaced aerials is still footsies, and your chances of getting punished are significantly lowered. There are no two characters that space the attack the same way, same length, does the same knockback, pokes the same way, has the same amount of hitboxes... So spacing in a sense is character-specific. Mindgames is player-specific because it's completely dependent on your ability to figure out your opponent and find out ways to force them to make mistakes, which we then punish. That's all I was saying.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Awaiting the next tier list now. I see Ike dropping heavily at this point.

 

[Chuee]

It's possible to consistently SDI Ike's jab given that you KNOW it is coming (and more specifically, the frame it'll hit on.)

For example, you should have no problem SDIing Ike's grab release to Jab on Lucas simply because it takes over half a second from the initial release to the jab hit.

GR jab doesn't work. I can break out far enough to where the first hit of you're jab misses.
Also you can SDI jab cancels.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No, Legendary, I think you misinterpreted what I said before. Think about it this way... Doing footsies with misspaced aerials is still footsties, but you get punished. Doing footsties with properly spaced aerials is still footsies, and your chances of getting punished are significantly lowered. There are no two characters that space the attack the same way, same length, does the same knockback, pokes the same way, has the same amount of hitboxes... So spacing in a sense is character-specific. Mindgames is player-specific because it's completely dependent on your ability to figure out your opponent and find out ways to force them to make mistakes, which we then punish. That's all I was saying.

That makes more sense now.

 

[YagamiLight]

GR jab doesn't work. I can break out far enough to where the first hit of you're jab misses.
Also you can SDI jab cancels.

GR Jab doesn't work? Shows how much I use it. Everyone I've tried it on just SDIs the initial jab anyway.

And yeah but as I said you can only SDI within somewhat reasonable reaction time frames. Repeated strings of jab1s you can SDI but the initial jab1 and even the second jab1 is probably a lost cause to attempt to react to and SDI in time.

 

[Nestec]

Where the FVCK is tier list v4.0??