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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0
- Thread starter Zankoku
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Wulfy07
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 115
DMG, I think Marth's max is top 6. Marth-Wario-DDD, I *COULD* see fighting over 5-6-7 spots, but right now, I just see Marth as 6 or 7 and Wario kind of locked in at 5 right now. Maybe a few months from now the above (5-6-7 war) could change and force Marth up, but right now, I don't see it.
I don't think many people who know what they're talking about put Marth lower than top 8.
To me, Marth is all about whether or not he is S tier, or top of A tier (as is his current norm/standard).
To me, Marth is all about whether or not he is S tier, or top of A tier (as is his current norm/standard).
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
What the hell is the crap how in the **** is Zelda the worst character in the game?
Wulfy07
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Oct 21, 2009
- Messages
- 115
Your opponent gets a lead. They run away. You lose. ggs.
Edit: lol i'm being serious when I say this btw....not trolling. If you don't believe me try playing Zelda in a tournament sometime.
Find that I think Diddy>Falco because Diddy has more guarenteed kill moves compared go Falco. They both can take control of the stage pretty well and can damage well. Falco's fsmash is hard to hit, his bair can kill, but the nanas are the setup ls for Diddy's kills.
I bet this was already said.
I bet this was already said.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Snake has too many random bad matchups to be best in the game
DDD, Olimar, Falco all counter Snake, and then he has tons of even matchups like MK, Diddy, Wario, Marth, ROB...I don't know how he's still considered 2nd.
DDD, Olimar, Falco all counter Snake, and then he has tons of even matchups like MK, Diddy, Wario, Marth, ROB...I don't know how he's still considered 2nd.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
none of those characters beat snake.
most characters matchups against snake are exaggerated almost as their MK matchups.
most characters matchups against snake are exaggerated almost as their MK matchups.
GunmasterLombardi
Smash Champion
Look up Larry's total victories against Tyrant and Dojo and start counting.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol I like how you just randomly act like an authority on snake matchups
I'm pretty sure popular opinion says Snake loses to DDD, Olimar, and Falco, so can you prove that he doesn't? lol
Zelda is prob worse than gannon. She is terrible.
Gdorf has a more diverse (and a more rewarding) approach game. Better weight which in turn lets him live longer on average than zelda with good DI. a better air game. and believe it or not better safe kill options.
Zelda is crazy over rated IMO.
Sheik, fox, bowser, peach, wolf, ZSS, luigi, and Ike are vastly underrated. but concidering how little play they see and how poorly they perform overall I can't say I'm shocked.
American Brawl teir lists aren't like other games. it is more of a combonation of current placings and player popularity instead of how srong a character performs against the rest of the cast. How else can you explain the vast shifts in the middle of the list. sonic moving up 7 spots? barely anything changed in his meta game. while the top the most plays stays pretty much the same and the bottom, the least played barely sees any change either.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this way is wrong. But it is obviously vastly different from even the other countries teir lists.
Gdorf has a more diverse (and a more rewarding) approach game. Better weight which in turn lets him live longer on average than zelda with good DI. a better air game. and believe it or not better safe kill options.
Zelda is crazy over rated IMO.
Sheik, fox, bowser, peach, wolf, ZSS, luigi, and Ike are vastly underrated. but concidering how little play they see and how poorly they perform overall I can't say I'm shocked.
American Brawl teir lists aren't like other games. it is more of a combonation of current placings and player popularity instead of how srong a character performs against the rest of the cast. How else can you explain the vast shifts in the middle of the list. sonic moving up 7 spots? barely anything changed in his meta game. while the top the most plays stays pretty much the same and the bottom, the least played barely sees any change either.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying this way is wrong. But it is obviously vastly different from even the other countries teir lists.
Pretty much what Stingers said. For supposedly being the second best character in the game Snake has too many random characters that can compete with him, which really isn't indicative of his tier placement.
I am an expert troll but if you can't tell the difference between trolling or just stating facts then you fail.
Edit: I agree completely <3.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
ffnair > anything gannon could possibly do.
I would have to go to a tourney first. Anyways not many characters can run away from Zelda outside of Sonic I haven't come across a character that Zelda can't keep up with. But of course a Zelda such as your self who feels as though Din's is a terrible move I can understand exactly why you struggle so much. Different play styles lead to different results and different opinions. Instead of I got camped because they took the lead on my Zelda why did they even get the lead in the first place?
Ganon simply uairs your ffnair. What now?
stingers
Smash Obsessed
zeldas ffnair isnt even that great dude
shieldstab fsmash, spacing jab and dtilt, and camping for lks = zeldas metagame afaik lol
shieldstab fsmash, spacing jab and dtilt, and camping for lks = zeldas metagame afaik lol
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
It's a pretty **** good move. Especially compared to whatever BS gannondorf is putting out there.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
nair is good hitting ppl on platforms but when is zelda ever in a position where she can land a ff nair...shes too slow but if u land it its p. sick yeah
but if u land it its p. sick yeah
gdorf's shdair blows zelda's fast falled nair away.
but even aside from that gdorfs air game over all is just flat out better than zelda. his ground game is compareble to. especially considering you can't DI out of his attack after they've connected. gdorfs ftilt is prob faster than zelda's grab.... zelda is just a bad character.
but even aside from that gdorfs air game over all is just flat out better than zelda. his ground game is compareble to. especially considering you can't DI out of his attack after they've connected. gdorfs ftilt is prob faster than zelda's grab.... zelda is just a bad character.
Jupz
Smash Master
Of course Marth is top 8. I feel he deserves anywhere between the 5-7 spot. S tier and the upper half of A tier is too close IMO to make any good judgements at this point in time, which is why I respect the SBR's decision to prolong the release of the tier list for as long as possible.
I'll give my thoughts on the top tiers, I'd like people to tell me what they think.
S Tier
Metaknight - Pretty obvious choice for first position. No disadvantaged matchups. VERY hard to put him in a disadvantageous position as he has lots of safe options where most characters don't, eg. Recovery, on the ledge, up high. No exploitable weaknesses such as Snake's Recovery, Diddy's loss of Banana's, IC's loss of Nana, etc. Fast aerials, including a great Uair and Dair. Tornado is AMAZING. Has one of the best Dragon Punches in the game with UpB OOS. Grabs especially Dthrow put him in a great position. Exceptional camping and approach abilities. Problem with weight, but has good horizontal momentum cancelling due to an extremely fast Uair (14 frames) and multiple jumps. Can also be hit out of a air release by several characters. And he's got a relatively bad aerial speed (5th worst). Charging FSmash can put a lot of pressure on characters, releases instantly and is unpunishable by most characters. Best air dodge, great rolls, transcendant priority. Also has a good fast moving dash attack.
Snake - I'm keeping snake in second position simply because people underestimate how much weight and kill power make a difference. Some characters (including Metaknight) have to do 1.5 TIMES the amount of damage to Snake in order to get a kill. And Snake himself can rack up damage reasonably fast, depending on whether he has the momentum. Probably the best killer in the game. Can crawl under projectiles and spring up when he's close if forced to approach. Bad aerial mobility and gimpable recovery. Can also be juggled easily. Has an advantage over most characters in a neutral position. Grenades encourage people to do something potentially unsafe that snake can capitalize on and punish. Good tech chase tool and above average grab range. Grenades give him great stage control and cover unique angles many projectiles don't.
Diddy Kong - Its quite clear IMO Diddy Kong is a great character. He has a grabbing approach from the air that can also be cancelled into a kick. An item that causes opponents to trip coupled with an amazing glidetoss and dash attack give him an amazing item game. Amazing wall with two banana's and a popgun that is near impossible to approach. He himself does not have to commit to approaches. However his ability is reduced a lot once banana's are gone, allowing some characters to camp him if they have the lead. Recovery isn't terrible and can be unpredictable but is beaten easily by a lot of moves. Lack of good counterpicks gives him a disadvantage in best of 5 sets. Also can have some trouble killing which can be partly covered with Bananas.
Falco - I was debating whether to put Falco in S tier or not. However he seemed closer to Diddy Kong then to the A tier characters IMO. Great projectile encourages a lot of characters to approach. Chaingrab tacks on badly needed damage early. Has a killing problem - Usmash doesn't kill till 150 on heavy characters. Fsmash is relatively hard to punish and Bair can be used for killing as well. IAP is very good if used smartly. Few bad matchups. Gimpable recovery, but its not absolutely terrible and most times he can get back on stage after taking only a few hits. This is aided by phantasm cancel. Amazing jab. Not too much else to say about Falco.
A Tier
Wario - Wario has amazing aerial mobility coupled with a small size for a heavyweight, making him very hard to hit. Good killing power by several kill moves (Fsmash, Waft, Uair) allows him to score kills on different stages, whether it has a low ceiling or sides. Has poor horizontal spacing but excellent vertical spacing, and a grab that can be done falling onto an opponents shield. Good recovery. Good damage on throws and a chaingrab which helps several matchups. Great aerial camping ability and good spotdodge and airdodge. However he can be shut down by characters with long ranged, fast aerials which can create walls, for example Dedede's Bair, Metaknight's aerials and tilts, Marths Fair. Also has a terrible air release which can be exploited by every character. Has a great selection of counterpicks and good matchups.
Marth - Marth's Fair is amazing and is unpunishable if spaced correctly. Tipper is an amazing thing, which gives more damage, hitlag, knockback (and therefore more shield pushback). Good aerial mobility helps him to avoid getting juggled, although its still one of his biggest weaknesses. Good Dragon Punch and punish options which including UpB OOS, Dancing Blade, and Bair OOS. Good aerials with great range (besides Dair). Great Dtilt which is only overshadowed by MK's. Uptilt kills relatively nicely if tippered. Decent recovery, it is gimpable but his UpB usually deters potential gimpers. Dancing blade refreshes moves nicely. Grabs combo into Fsmash at low percents. Shuts down a lot of characters with poor range. Can have a killing problem.
Ice Climbers - These guys have an amazing wall with desynched blizzards and Uairs. Infinite speaks for itself. Good Nair, Bair and Uair which all do a lot of damge if both Climbers connect. Bad grab range and low traction make it hard to get the grab. The match can turn very quickly - either IC's can get an infinite or can get split up and lose Nana. If playing safely against Sopo they should be killed without taking much damage at all, even though he has a chaingrab. Good projectile forces characters to the air. Very hard to approach. Good matchups across high and top tier. Good UpB recovery. Many ways to desynch and things to do while desyched, which gives them options for most situations. Average killers bar the infinite.
King Dedede - Dedede is relatively straightforward and has several AMAZING qualities. Bair probably the best aerial in the game, long ranged Dair which can be used to stop potential juggles, insane grab game with Bthrow, tech chase, chaingrab and the range of his grab. Pivot grab beats most things on the ground. Ftilt pokes from a distance very few characters can compete with. Insane weight and good kill power give him the snake effect as well. However his top tier matchups leave a little to be desired. He is bad at juggling himself and susceptible to being juggled (this can be avoided with his good air dodge, good fastfall speed (fastest in the game), Dair and Multiple jumps, but still is a problem). His recovery usually does the trick getting him back on stage but he usually takes a lot of damage getting back on.
I'm not 100% sure about the ranking of the characters in the A tier, that was just how I thought of them at the time.
I'll give my thoughts on the top tiers, I'd like people to tell me what they think.
S Tier
Metaknight - Pretty obvious choice for first position. No disadvantaged matchups. VERY hard to put him in a disadvantageous position as he has lots of safe options where most characters don't, eg. Recovery, on the ledge, up high. No exploitable weaknesses such as Snake's Recovery, Diddy's loss of Banana's, IC's loss of Nana, etc. Fast aerials, including a great Uair and Dair. Tornado is AMAZING. Has one of the best Dragon Punches in the game with UpB OOS. Grabs especially Dthrow put him in a great position. Exceptional camping and approach abilities. Problem with weight, but has good horizontal momentum cancelling due to an extremely fast Uair (14 frames) and multiple jumps. Can also be hit out of a air release by several characters. And he's got a relatively bad aerial speed (5th worst). Charging FSmash can put a lot of pressure on characters, releases instantly and is unpunishable by most characters. Best air dodge, great rolls, transcendant priority. Also has a good fast moving dash attack.
Snake - I'm keeping snake in second position simply because people underestimate how much weight and kill power make a difference. Some characters (including Metaknight) have to do 1.5 TIMES the amount of damage to Snake in order to get a kill. And Snake himself can rack up damage reasonably fast, depending on whether he has the momentum. Probably the best killer in the game. Can crawl under projectiles and spring up when he's close if forced to approach. Bad aerial mobility and gimpable recovery. Can also be juggled easily. Has an advantage over most characters in a neutral position. Grenades encourage people to do something potentially unsafe that snake can capitalize on and punish. Good tech chase tool and above average grab range. Grenades give him great stage control and cover unique angles many projectiles don't.
Diddy Kong - Its quite clear IMO Diddy Kong is a great character. He has a grabbing approach from the air that can also be cancelled into a kick. An item that causes opponents to trip coupled with an amazing glidetoss and dash attack give him an amazing item game. Amazing wall with two banana's and a popgun that is near impossible to approach. He himself does not have to commit to approaches. However his ability is reduced a lot once banana's are gone, allowing some characters to camp him if they have the lead. Recovery isn't terrible and can be unpredictable but is beaten easily by a lot of moves. Lack of good counterpicks gives him a disadvantage in best of 5 sets. Also can have some trouble killing which can be partly covered with Bananas.
Falco - I was debating whether to put Falco in S tier or not. However he seemed closer to Diddy Kong then to the A tier characters IMO. Great projectile encourages a lot of characters to approach. Chaingrab tacks on badly needed damage early. Has a killing problem - Usmash doesn't kill till 150 on heavy characters. Fsmash is relatively hard to punish and Bair can be used for killing as well. IAP is very good if used smartly. Few bad matchups. Gimpable recovery, but its not absolutely terrible and most times he can get back on stage after taking only a few hits. This is aided by phantasm cancel. Amazing jab. Not too much else to say about Falco.
A Tier
Wario - Wario has amazing aerial mobility coupled with a small size for a heavyweight, making him very hard to hit. Good killing power by several kill moves (Fsmash, Waft, Uair) allows him to score kills on different stages, whether it has a low ceiling or sides. Has poor horizontal spacing but excellent vertical spacing, and a grab that can be done falling onto an opponents shield. Good recovery. Good damage on throws and a chaingrab which helps several matchups. Great aerial camping ability and good spotdodge and airdodge. However he can be shut down by characters with long ranged, fast aerials which can create walls, for example Dedede's Bair, Metaknight's aerials and tilts, Marths Fair. Also has a terrible air release which can be exploited by every character. Has a great selection of counterpicks and good matchups.
Marth - Marth's Fair is amazing and is unpunishable if spaced correctly. Tipper is an amazing thing, which gives more damage, hitlag, knockback (and therefore more shield pushback). Good aerial mobility helps him to avoid getting juggled, although its still one of his biggest weaknesses. Good Dragon Punch and punish options which including UpB OOS, Dancing Blade, and Bair OOS. Good aerials with great range (besides Dair). Great Dtilt which is only overshadowed by MK's. Uptilt kills relatively nicely if tippered. Decent recovery, it is gimpable but his UpB usually deters potential gimpers. Dancing blade refreshes moves nicely. Grabs combo into Fsmash at low percents. Shuts down a lot of characters with poor range. Can have a killing problem.
Ice Climbers - These guys have an amazing wall with desynched blizzards and Uairs. Infinite speaks for itself. Good Nair, Bair and Uair which all do a lot of damge if both Climbers connect. Bad grab range and low traction make it hard to get the grab. The match can turn very quickly - either IC's can get an infinite or can get split up and lose Nana. If playing safely against Sopo they should be killed without taking much damage at all, even though he has a chaingrab. Good projectile forces characters to the air. Very hard to approach. Good matchups across high and top tier. Good UpB recovery. Many ways to desynch and things to do while desyched, which gives them options for most situations. Average killers bar the infinite.
King Dedede - Dedede is relatively straightforward and has several AMAZING qualities. Bair probably the best aerial in the game, long ranged Dair which can be used to stop potential juggles, insane grab game with Bthrow, tech chase, chaingrab and the range of his grab. Pivot grab beats most things on the ground. Ftilt pokes from a distance very few characters can compete with. Insane weight and good kill power give him the snake effect as well. However his top tier matchups leave a little to be desired. He is bad at juggling himself and susceptible to being juggled (this can be avoided with his good air dodge, good fastfall speed (fastest in the game), Dair and Multiple jumps, but still is a problem). His recovery usually does the trick getting him back on stage but he usually takes a lot of damage getting back on.
I'm not 100% sure about the ranking of the characters in the A tier, that was just how I thought of them at the time.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
If you think that's the only use for her nair then you're sadly mistaken.nair is good hitting ppl on platforms but when is zelda ever in a position where she can land a ff nair...shes too slow
But it really isn't. Gannon air game is trash ZOMg lightning stomp big deal. It's lame easy to avoid and easy to punish bait and just flat out prioritize it. There's no way you can argue gannon > Zelda in any aspect and expect me to take that notion seriously. LoL. Zelda isn't bad you're just bad with her there's a difference ROFL.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Zelda's nair has transcendent priority.
Just looked at the gannon boards match up break down of Zelda vs Gannon they Say her nair beats their dair hmmm what a shocker.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
jupz I liked ur summary of everyone basically. good read
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Can someone tell me why they think Wario should drop? I think he's been placing fairly well he's a great character and he has good match ups against a lot of the more played characters. Especially characters that are constantly getting thrown ahead of him on a lot of yall list like falco and diddy.
Clai
Smash Lord
I like how many people bashed on Mars' tier list for Zelda's placement without saying anything about Yoshi. Captain Falcon, Samus and Link>Yoshi? Wtf?
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
Well when you play Zelda and see her last on a tier list you gotta beast. That **** just aint kosher man.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
oh you mean the 3% of her the hitbox actually covers?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
lol I like how you just randomly act like an authority on snake matchups
1. you should be more definitive with your terminology. very slightly beats =/= counter.
1a. although seeing how snake is overpowered garbage, I can understand the tendancy to blow something like that out of proportion
2. since when does falco flat out beat snake? Ive heard people say that its even and ive heard people say that snake wins, but ive never seen anybody valid (i.e. with solid reasoning) say that falco actually beats snake.
3. Ive heard that olimar snake is very very slightly beats snake, but I dont think Ive ever seen that be put into practice, mainly because I think that discussion took place before snakes noticed the fact that with decent reflexes snake can down throw olimar to forever. Something I actually have seen in game.
EDIT:
zelda isnt the worse character in the game, but shes is reallly REALLY bad...
and fast fall nair has nothing to do with what makes her better than ganon. all of ganons aerials are better than zeldas nair. down tilt combos and shield poking are probably the only things keeping her from being worse than him.
yoshi is stronger than those characters by a fair amount.
Zelda (I play her too) is not.
Zelda (I play her too) is not.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I'm not getting baited into this anymore. Her nair is good. Just use it and try it out. It's not disjointed so it's limited in how you can use it but it's a good aerial that's fast auto cancels and can lead into other moves IDK what else you want maybe more range but work with the tools you have or drop her.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
not really it's not as if Zelda are the moves in the game that can be SDI.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I'm one that comes from the idea that Olimar does more than slightly beats snake, I say more of a solid 40:60 imo.
Also, I've heard mixed opinions on Falco v. Snake, like too much for me to put an exact label on it, like KID said. Although I can say that Snake is overrated in my book theoretically.
inb4InuiSaiyanSnaketheory
Also, I've heard mixed opinions on Falco v. Snake, like too much for me to put an exact label on it, like KID said. Although I can say that Snake is overrated in my book theoretically.
inb4InuiSaiyanSnaketheory
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
I don't think Oli has that big of an advantage. Snake just seems like the terminator just destroying them lil pikmin to get to oli then go to town on him.
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