The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[DanGR]

Snake beats Olimar...

<_<

Or at least goes even with him.

Dthrow is too much of a pain.

Like really. What good Snakes are losing to Olimar players?
edit: Inb4Dabuz>Ally. Wifi doesn't count.

D3 definitely beats Snake, and Falco is debatable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Snake beats Olimar...

<_<

Or at least goes even with him.

Dthrow is too much of a pain.

Like really. What good Snakes are losing to Olimar players?
edit: Inb4Dabuz>Ally. Wifi doesn't count.

D3 definitely beats Snake, and Falco is debatable.

I'd have to see more snake's lose to d3 players for me to think the match up is in D3 favors.

 

[DanGR]

Florida is proof enough. *shrugs*

 

[Turbo Ether]

Florida is proof enough. *shrugs*

Debatable, imo. CO18 is the most knowledgeable player of the Snake vs DeDeDe matchup on the continent and still BARELY beat Ally and Razer.

Also, I agree that Olimar doesn't beat Snake. I think the only characters that might have an advantageous matchup against Snake are MK and possibly Dedede, both 55:45 at best.

 

[Albert.]

Florida is proof enough. *shrugs*

TRUE THAT

I <3 my home state!!!

 

[-Mars-]

DEHF thinks Falco beats Snake and he beat the best Snake so I dunno maybe he might know a thing or two about the MU.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Florida is proof enough. *shrugs*

I knew you'd bring that up but like I said one instant of someone winning a match up isn't enough to say that it's in their favor. Seibrik also went d3 against ally but lost that round. So it's rather hard to say.

 

[DanGR]

I knew you'd bring that up but like I said one instant of someone winning a match up isn't enough to say that it's in their favor. Seibrik also went d3 against ally but lost that round. So it's rather hard to say.

I didn't say anything about Winterfest.

Florida in general is just light years ahead of everyone at the matchup. Ask anyone down there and everyone that has been down there and you'll continually come across the agreement that D3 beats Snake.

 

[Jupz]

Posting this again cause it was on the bottom of a page before and not many people saw it Thanks stinger.

I'll give my thoughts on the top tiers, I'd like people to tell me what they think.

S Tier
Metaknight - Pretty obvious choice for first position. No disadvantaged matchups. VERY hard to put him in a disadvantageous position as he has lots of safe options where most characters don't, eg. Recovery, on the ledge, up high. No exploitable weaknesses such as Snake's Recovery, Diddy's loss of Banana's, IC's loss of Nana, etc. Fast aerials, including a great Uair and Dair. Tornado is AMAZING. Has one of the best Dragon Punches in the game with UpB OOS. Grabs especially Dthrow put him in a great position. Exceptional camping and approach abilities. Problem with weight, but has good horizontal momentum cancelling due to an extremely fast Uair (14 frames) and multiple jumps. Can also be hit out of a air release by several characters. And he's got a relatively bad aerial speed (5th worst). Charging FSmash can put a lot of pressure on characters, releases instantly and is unpunishable by most characters. Best air dodge, great rolls, transcendant priority. Also has a good fast moving dash attack.

Snake - I'm keeping snake in second position simply because people underestimate how much weight and kill power make a difference. Some characters (including Metaknight) have to do 1.5 TIMES the amount of damage to Snake in order to get a kill. And Snake himself can rack up damage reasonably fast, depending on whether he has the momentum. Probably the best killer in the game. Can crawl under projectiles and spring up when he's close if forced to approach. Bad aerial mobility and gimpable recovery. Can also be juggled easily. Has an advantage over most characters in a neutral position. Grenades encourage people to do something potentially unsafe that snake can capitalize on and punish. Good tech chase tool and above average grab range. Grenades give him great stage control and cover unique angles many projectiles don't.

Diddy Kong - Its quite clear IMO Diddy Kong is a great character. He has a grabbing approach from the air that can also be cancelled into a kick. An item that causes opponents to trip coupled with an amazing glidetoss and dash attack give him an amazing item game. Amazing wall with two banana's and a popgun that is near impossible to approach. He himself does not have to commit to approaches. However his ability is reduced a lot once banana's are gone, allowing some characters to camp him if they have the lead. Recovery isn't terrible and can be unpredictable but is beaten easily by a lot of moves. Lack of good counterpicks gives him a disadvantage in best of 5 sets. Also can have some trouble killing which can be partly covered with Bananas.

Falco - I was debating whether to put Falco in S tier or not. However he seemed closer to Diddy Kong then to the A tier characters IMO. Great projectile encourages a lot of characters to approach. Chaingrab tacks on badly needed damage early. Has a killing problem - Usmash doesn't kill till 150 on heavy characters. Fsmash is relatively hard to punish and Bair can be used for killing as well. IAP is very good if used smartly. Few bad matchups. Gimpable recovery, but its not absolutely terrible and most times he can get back on stage after taking only a few hits. This is aided by phantasm cancel. Amazing jab. Not too much else to say about Falco.

A Tier
Wario - Wario has amazing aerial mobility coupled with a small size for a heavyweight, making him very hard to hit. Good killing power by several kill moves (Fsmash, Waft, Uair) allows him to score kills on different stages, whether it has a low ceiling or sides. Has poor horizontal spacing but excellent vertical spacing, and a grab that can be done falling onto an opponents shield. Good recovery. Good damage on throws and a chaingrab which helps several matchups. Great aerial camping ability and good spotdodge and airdodge. However he can be shut down by characters with long ranged, fast aerials which can create walls, for example Dedede's Bair, Metaknight's aerials and tilts, Marths Fair. Also has a terrible air release which can be exploited by every character. Has a great selection of counterpicks and good matchups.

Marth - Marth's Fair is amazing and is unpunishable if spaced correctly. Tipper is an amazing thing, which gives more damage, hitlag, shieldstun, and knockback (and therefore more shield pushback). Good aerial mobility helps him to avoid getting juggled, although its still one of his biggest weaknesses. Good Dragon Punch and punish options which including UpB OOS, Dancing Blade, and Bair OOS. Good aerials with great range (besides Dair). Great Dtilt which is only overshadowed by MK's. Uptilt kills relatively nicely if tippered. Decent recovery, it is gimpable but his UpB usually deters potential gimpers. Dancing blade refreshes moves nicely. Grabs combo into Fsmash at low percents. Shuts down a lot of characters with poor range. Can have a killing problem.

Ice Climbers - These guys have an amazing wall with desynched blizzards and Uairs. Infinite speaks for itself. Good Nair, Bair and Uair which all do a lot of damge if both Climbers connect. Bad grab range and low traction make it hard to get the grab. The match can turn very quickly - either IC's can get an infinite or can get split up and lose Nana. If playing safely against Sopo he should be killed without taking much damage at all, even though he has a chaingrab. Good projectile forces characters to the air. Very hard to approach. Good matchups across high and top tier. Good UpB recovery. Many ways to desynch and things to do while desyched, which gives them options for most situations. Average killers bar the infinite.

King Dedede - Dedede is relatively straightforward and has several AMAZING qualities. Bair probably the best aerial in the game, long ranged Dair which can be used to stop potential juggles, insane grab game with Bthrow, tech chase, chaingrab and the range of his grab. Pivot grab beats most things on the ground. Ftilt pokes from a distance very few characters can compete with. Insane weight and good kill power give him the snake effect as well. However his top tier matchups leave a little to be desired. He is bad at juggling himself and susceptible to being juggled (this can be avoided with his good air dodge, good fastfall speed (fastest in the game), Dair and Multiple jumps, but still is a problem). His recovery usually does the trick getting him back on stage but he usually takes a lot of damage getting back on.


I'm not 100% sure about the ranking of the characters in the A tier, that was just how I thought of them at the time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I didn't say anything about Winterfest.

Florida in general is just awesome at fighting Snake.

Ah I see well when you have a snake at the level of AfroThunder it pushes them further although I'm not even sure if he plays anymore.

@Jupz why repost your list ?

 

[Wulfy07]

Snake beats Olimar...

<_<

Or at least goes even with him.

Dthrow is too much of a pain.

Like really. What good Snakes are losing to Olimar players?
edit: Inb4Dabuz>Ally. Wifi doesn't count.

D3 definitely beats Snake, and Falco is debatable.

First, Oli>Snake is ridiculous. You said it Dan. Also, DDD is *clearly* counter Snake. Even *IF* Ally and Razer barely lost, we're still talking about the BEST Snake player losing to DDD. The match up is amazing, and while an amazing player like either Ally or Razer can win the match, that comes from skill. Fact is, DDD has an advantage over Snake that is seen at most levels of tournament play (but most notable at the mid level)

Snake versus Falco is tricky. It's not as heavily debated as the MK match up, but I'd say it is probably 50-50. I've done some great games against a snake, but I can't really say either of our characters had an advantage. It comes down to the chosen tactics and who outcamps, it's just a really exciting game. Bottom line, 50-50 or about even.

Finally:
Is the lack of reliable kill move really the only favor toward Diddy in terms of placement? I still personally see Falco being 3rd best even if the entire backroom told me otherwise, but if anyone has a balanced discussion of both breaking down who goes where, I'd love to see it. (Or if they can point me in the direction of one, because I've got some interest there.)

 

[Jupz]

Cause before it was on the bottom of a page so not many people would read it. I didn't want to spend my time writing it up for nothing lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

First, Oli>Snake is ridiculous. You said it Dan. Also, DDD is *clearly* counter Snake. Even *IF* Ally and Razer barely lost, we're still talking about the BEST Snake player losing to DDD. The match up is amazing, and while an amazing player like either Ally or Razer can win the match, that comes from skill. Fact is, DDD has an advantage over Snake that is seen at most levels of tournament play (but most notable at the mid level)

Snake versus Falco is tricky. It's not as heavily debated as the MK match up, but I'd say it is probably 50-50. I've done some great games against a snake, but I can't really say either of our characters had an advantage. It comes down to the chosen tactics and who outcamps, it's just a really exciting game. Bottom line, 50-50 or about even.

Finally:
Is the lack of reliable kill move really the only favor toward Diddy in terms of placement? I still personally see Falco being 3rd best even if the entire backroom told me otherwise, but if anyone has a balanced discussion of both breaking down who goes where, I'd love to see it. (Or if they can point me in the direction of one, because I've got some interest there.)

You're talking about the d3 player as if he's not the best d3 player LoL. CO18 isn't a slouch dude is super legit.

 

[Wulfy07]

I realize he's fantastic, but my argument does kind of hinge on the fact Ally is a better player. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Nic64]

Some characters (including Metaknight) have to do 1.5 TIMES the amount of damage to Snake in order to get a kill.

I think if the Snake is smart and has good DI then it's actually more than that aside from edge guard kills, and I STILL think MK wins that by nearly 60:40, outhitting Snake that badly is completely reasonable when you look at how limited a character he is by comparison. Snake's weight class and clunkiness is a disadvantage IMO, he gets option selected so badly. Much harder to deal with a fast, agile light weight for MK in my experience.

Diddy's claim to #2 is however a little shoddy, being that he relies strongly on neutrals and has an even worse problem with gay stages than Snake does. I think after MK it's pretty wide open between the next 5-7 characters, MK really does deserve his own tier.

 

[Smoom77]

I completely agree with you Jupz, but what is the arguement over Falco or Wario for 4th? I could see either of them there.

 

[DMG]

Wario's more CP safe, Falco does stronger on some of the neutrals. Wario doesn't have a 65:35 or so Matchup like IC's are for Falco.

 

[llamapaste]

Why are people saying Diddy is better than Snake? This is list is based mostly off tourny results right? If it is than Snake should be higher than Diddy because Snake's tourny results are so much better it's not even funny.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wario's more CP safe, Falco does stronger on some of the neutrals. Wario doesn't have a 65:35 or so Matchup like IC's are for Falco.

Dehf sees the mu as 55:45 or 60:40, and larry = metagame.

I think he sees pikachu as our hardest now

 

[DMG]

My point is that Falco's hardest matchup is harder than what Wario has to face. Falco is also less CP safe overall compared to Wario just based on stages/how they can adapt.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

That's true.

 

[DMG]

Now results wise, Falco should be ahead of Wario. Wario's not represented much at this point, so it's hard to say.

 

[etecoon]

Why are people saying Diddy is better than Snake? This is list is based mostly off tourny results right? If it is than Snake should be higher than Diddy because Snake's tourny results are so much better it's not even funny.

tournament results only would be ankoku's chart. snake definitely performs better in tournament right now than diddy, no one would argue that I think, but he's also clearly better represented IMO

 

[adumbrodeus]

Now results wise, Falco should be ahead of Wario. Wario's not represented much at this point, so it's hard to say.

If the results didn't represent current centralization, I'd agree with you.


Unfortunately, saying that a character is better based on results is equivalent to saying you should take up smoking to avoid cardiovascular disease, the statistical reasoning behind it and our results are exactly the same (I proved it in an earlier post).


I wanted to do something just following players at the top of the metagame and averaging results, but I didn't have the time, was too busy. If I get a chance, I'll restart it, but I need support on it.

 

[Zankoku]

The tier list will always be influenced by a combination of theoretical metagame and tournament results. One can't completely discount a character just because it is underrepresented, but at the same time we can't put someone up top on theory alone when there's no visible application of it.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Dehf sees the mu as 55:45 or 60:40, and larry = metagame.

I think he sees pikachu as our hardest now

Larry hasn't fought Meep recently. Or Lain. By your logic, if Meep or Lain said the matchup is 70:30, they would be correct, because Meep/Lain = metagame.

The tier list will always be influenced by a combination of theoretical metagame and tournament results. One can't completely discount a character just because it is underrepresented, but at the same time we can't put someone up top on theory alone when there's no visible application of it.

This... should be added to the first post.

 

[-Jumpman-]

The tier list will always be influenced by a combination of theoretical metagame and tournament results. One can't completely discount a character just because it is underrepresented, but at the same time we can't put someone up top on theory alone when there's no visible application of it.

Wario will still be lower though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Larry hasn't fought Meep recently. Or Lain. By your logic, if Meep or Lain said the matchup is 70:30, they would be correct, because Meep/Lain = metagame.

Do they say that?

 

[DMG]

Meep is the overlord of the IC metagame. He proclaims that IC's only lose to Snake.

And then M2K scrooges him and he gets all Emo, like a IC version of Drk.Peach.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

KING DAD WILL LOVE ME

How under-represented is Bowser? I know little about him, myself.

 

[Espy Rose]

Scrooging is the term of the year in 2010. Discuss.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Meep is the overlord of the IC metagame. He proclaims that IC's only lose to Snake.

And then M2K scrooges him and he gets all Emo, like a IC version of Drk.Peach.

Is it bad that I laughed?

 

[phi1ny3]

@Reflex: Not as bad as it used to be, but at the same time, he's pretty badly repped.

 

[DMG]

Scrooging is the term of the year in 2010. Discuss.

I wanted to show it off first in tournament. That way, when people say "This is DaMaGing to our metagame", they will be like, "Hey wait a minute, DMG did this."

Is it bad that I laughed?

No; it proves you are human lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No; it proves you are human lol.

Shoot i hoped it proved I was a *******

 

[Dark.Pch]

Meep is the overlord of the IC metagame. He proclaims that IC's only lose to Snake.

And then M2K scrooges him and he gets all Emo, like a IC version of Drk.Peach.

Are you asking for me to beat the **** out of you?

 

[DMG]

GOOD GAME!

NO REMATCH!

Lol.

Dark.Pch, your fate... has been SEALED!!!

 

[orange/xd]

Are you asking for me to beat the **** out of you?

no death threats plz

 

[DMG]

^^^^

IT DON'T MATTER SON! I JUST SAID GOOD GAME, NO REMATCH!!!


Curly Mustache. Wario. 4th best.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DMG, don't ever run into me in person at a tourny. You will wish you never did.