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The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

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Dark.Pch

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Dark.Pch, if it went like you think, then Peach would have an advantage on every single character in the game and would be Top Tier.
Oh I see, So me thinking Peach is B material is me thinking she beats everyone and is top tier. Ok sir, thanks for letting me know this. You SBR members are sure smart and know alot about me.

I have thought that since a long time. However, ZSS' results are waaaay better than Peach's results.

But I'm a biased Peach main anyway ;p And I don't think ZSS is that good.


:053:
If Peach was doing better than ZSS in the tourny Results, people would think Peach is better no questions asked. And tourny results is what people base things off alot. But never really sit down and think what the character is really all about and what they can trully do. Tournaments results can really be more bias then one explaing thier mains. really anything below B tier.
 

Nefarious B

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Well as it stands ZSS has better matchups and better tourney results. Now you'll probably say our matchups are biased, in which case I want to know which ones exactly so we can debate it.

I have no doubt ZSS is a better character, I'm just looking to explain whatever misconceptions you have about her. ZSS should be bottom of A or top of B, 10-12th on the list.
 

DMG

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ZSS is a better character than Peach. You can debate all you want, but I can find enough good Peach players that will agree with me on that one.
 

Dark.Pch

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ZSS is a better character than Peach. You can debate all you want, but I can find enough good Peach players that will agree with me on that one.
So you get a bunch of Peach players to say this and that means she is better without even talking about it and getting to detail, facts about the characters. Thats all it takes?

Heh heh. This community is more of a joke that I thought.
 

DMG

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No, my point is you overrate Peach kinda hard, supported by the fact that a lot of other good Peachs disagree with you frequently and are more modest in their matchup ratings, and that your opinion that ZSS is worse that Peach is probably off on a different tangent of thought than the consensus of other Peach players and that it's not unlikely in this instance for you to be wrong even though you have been right before in the past.
 

Dark.Pch

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If you really wanted me to over rate Peach, you know what I would say? That Peach is A tier material. And the reason people don't see this or is rank in C material is cause Peach players are playing to typical and generic. Even my self. So I am to blame as well for that crap of a meta game Peach has right now that all know how to beat and see already. I would go on and on that Peach is straight up a tier material if you really wanna go to these lines.

I would also say that Peach goes even with snake just like that. But I have said many times that I wanna prove that. I have not completed getting snake down 100%. I am almost done, just a few more stuff I need to figure out, and until I do, I say Snake has a slight advantage, peach does not beat snake.

Cause I can bring so much into and detail about my character that other boards can't even do means I over rate my character? Really when I state she is B tier And back then when I stated that she was only above pit and DK? Do you SBR members listen to yourselfs?

Also this is already a fact that I don't agree with what Peach players have to say most of the time. They cry and complain about the same thing over and over. "we can't do this, falco is too hard, Meta spamms so nothing we can do, we have to Fair all the times to get inside and kill, we play these players and can't ever beat them, waa waa waa" I get sick of that. Then I see the videos and it is the same typical play. No mindgames, no switch ups. Nothing. Generic stuff. How does one expect to improve with all this garbabge? I choose not to be on the same boat as them and do something about it. And that is me over ratting my character.

Sorry dude but no.
 

Nefarious B

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Okay here are my opinions on the matchup ratios, you can check this (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257324) thread for other mains' opinions on our matchups, but in general this should be correct or close to it:

MK: 40-60
Snake: 50-50
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 60-40

Marth: 45-55
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 55-45

Peach: 55-45
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 65-35
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 60-40
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 60-40
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 70-30
 

Meru.

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No, my point is you overrate Peach kinda hard, supported by the fact that a lot of other good Peachs disagree with you frequently and are more modest in their matchup ratings, and that your opinion that ZSS is worse that Peach is probably off on a different tangent of thought than the consensus of other Peach players and that it's not unlikely in this instance for you to be wrong even though you have been right before in the past.

This whole post is only one sentence. o_o
/uselesspost. I mean mine btw, not yours ;p Saying it to avoid confusion.

:053:
 

-Mars-

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Okay here are my opinions on the matchup ratios, you can check this (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257324) thread for other mains' opinions on our matchups, but in general this should be correct or close to it:

MK: 40-60
Snake: 50-50
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 60-40

Marth: 45-55
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 55-45

Peach: 55-45
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 65-35
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 60-40
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 60-40
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 70-30
From what Snakee tells me Sheik beats ZSS. Correct?
 

Dark.Pch

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Okay here are my opinions on the matchup ratios, you can check this (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257324) thread for other mains' opinions on our matchups, but in general this should be correct or close to it:

MK: 40-60
Snake: 50-50
Wario: 45-55
Falco: 35-65
Diddy: 45-55
DDD: 60-40

Marth: 45-55
GaW: 60-40
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 40-60
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: 65-35
Kirby: 60-40

Lucario: 45-55
ZSS: mirror
Toon Link: 55-45
Pit: 55-45
DK: 55-45

Peach: 55-45
Luigi: 50-50
Fox: 50-50
Wolf: 45-55
Sonic: 60-40
Sheik: 55-45

Bowser: 65-35
Zelda: 60-40
PT: 60-40
Ike: 60-40

Lucas: 60-40
Mario: 50-50
Ness: 55-45
Yoshi: 60-40
Samus: 60-40

Jigglypuff: 60-40
Captain Falco: 60-40
Link: 65-35
Ganon: 70-30
Only match up I will correct is ZSS Vs Peach. She does not have the advantage, this is even. But thatis left for another time to talk.

As for Peach Match ups: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193 But this is how I call it since no one there agrees with what I have to say.

MK: 40-60
Snake: 45-55
Wario: 60-40 or 55-45 (I never played a wario so I can't say anything about this. This is what othes say)
Falco: 50-50
Diddy: 60-40
DDD: 50-50

Marth: 40-60
GaW: 45-55
Pikachu: 50-50
Olimar: 60-40
Ice Climbers: 60-40
ROB: idk yet to say anything on my end but others say Peach beats him. I'm not on ether side yet.
Kirby: 50-50

I'm going with these characters since they are A tier and are common match ups to know.

So to break this down some more:

Meta: we both lose that....it's meta.....nuff said.
Snake: Till I prove other wise, ZSS does better then Peach.
Wario: Peach wins
Falco: Peach wins
Diddy: Peach wins
DDD: ZSS wins
Marth: ZSS wins
G&W: ZSS wins
Pikachu: 1 point for both, even fight.
Olimar: Peach wins
IC: one point for both
ROB: ZSS wins
Kirby: ZSS wins.

Ok so going by this, ZSS has better match ups then Peach does.

I now wanna get to the characters in general. Think you can explain to me all the stuff about ZSS?
 

Nefarious B

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First thing we can clarify is the MK matchup. That matchup is split between mains saying 40-60 and 45-55, with most saying somewhere in the middle. I am one of those who would say it's like 43-57 or something stupid, but it's too confusing that way so I just round down to be conservative (cause everyone thinks they have 45-55 with MK). Snakeee goes back and forth on this matchup, and as you know he has lots of xp against his brother and other MKs. Nick Riddle, a florida ZSS, just beat Seibrik's MK to win a tourney this weekend. I will admit I don't know enough about Peach, but I think it's safe to say ZS has a better matchup with MK.

From what Snakee tells me Sheik beats ZSS. Correct?
I actually have no idea what Snakeee thinks of that matchup.

There are other matchups that I'm split on as well. For example, I have Olimar as a disadvantage even though Snakeee would tell you it's 60-40 us. Snakeee feels we go 55-45 with Wario and Lucario, while I have 45-55 here.

Other mains say we go 65-35 with DDD, GaW, Kirby, to name a few. So I think it's safe to say when looking at these ratios I have that they're definitely on the conservative end of the spectrum
 

-Mars-

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I have not played a good ZSS so this is just all theorycraft but from what I understand pretty much any character with a fast moving laser priority projectile is going to give ZSS some trouble and Sheik can edgeguard and keep up with ZSS' speed.
 

Kewkky

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I disagree with ZSS having a large advantage on Kirby, but I'd rather wait until I can play another ZSS before saying anything (I'm the only active mainer in PR). An advantage, yes, but not a large advantage.
 

Dark.Pch

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First thing we can clarify is the MK matchup. That matchup is split between mains saying 40-60 and 45-55, with most saying somewhere in the middle. I am one of those who would say it's like 43-57 or something stupid, but it's too confusing that way so I just round down to be conservative (cause everyone thinks they have 45-55 with MK). Snakeee goes back and forth on this matchup, and as you know he has lots of xp against his brother and other MKs. Nick Riddle, a florida ZSS, just beat Seibrik's MK to win a tourney this weekend. I will admit I don't know enough about Peach, but I think it's safe to say ZS has a better matchup with MK.
Alright then. I am not gonna bring up players for Peach cause as I stated before, some pretty much do the same stuff all the time or complain about the match up. So you won't be playing straight or on point. ZSS and Peach have the same match up ratio for Meta. So I'll explain how this match up is from peach side.

Meta Knight:

This match up is a game of cat and mouse. You are always the mouse and can never be the cat, at all. You dare try being the cat, you are asking to get the crap beating out of you. (this applies to Marth as well) how does a mouse come out victorious from a cat? If you ever watch tom and jerry, the way Jerry handles tom. thats how you are suppose to do it here.

You have no buissness approaching meta. At all. Let him come to you. You can attack him from distance. He can't If he wants to hurt you, he has to come to you. Plus need to keep your Kill moves fresh. Meta is not that heavy and lucky for us, he can die well from us.

- Patience. If you play aggressive, throw this match out the window, you are not winning. Patience is important here for you don't need to be approaching meta. learn to be defensive, playing aggressive will have meta end you sooner than you expect. Certain characters you need to play aggressive. meta is NOT one of them. He is not having that.

- Evasion. You need to have good evasion when Meta is all over you. Once meta gets his hits in and is on you, he can stay on your azz and even kill you for it. So you need to know how to break away. With platforms this makes it hard, but easier at the same time. Learn how to break free him his pressure/rampage. Once you do, you can start the process of getting damage from turnips and having him come to you.

- Spacing. This is also important. With you have good spacing, it will make it hard for meta to touch you. His range is not that good. Only time he has decent range is his Ftilt and and think Fsmash. Bait his moves and space yours. Done right, you can break his crap and hit him. Add turnips to your spacing if in fear you kill moves will get weak. Just don't pick them up at the wrong time.

- Speed/quick relfexes. This is one of the reasons I find meta fun to play against. Cause with him, I have to play so fast. somewhat reminds me of melee. Don't stay in one place for too long. Don't roll alot, you will just eat a Dsmash or move into his attacks. Make it hard for meta to pin point you. This can reduce the chance or stupid kills he can get on you. This is also important cause his range is not all that. Meta hits your shield, recat as fast as possible with a counter attack. Meta sidesteps? short hop Dair or FC>bair if looking the other way. See meata rolling on to the stage? Reverse Fsmash him. But be quick about it all. The faster you are, the more problems meta will have. More than expected. Even for a character like Peach.

To me these are the 4 most important factors for beating this broken character. The most important one to me I would say is patience. Even if you suck at the last 3, patience can make up for it. Use these 4 things and use them as combinations. Or all at once if you are good at them.

Becareful when you have distance. Cause most will tornado to you. really when you wanna glide toss. so that is why when there is distance, I move in slowly and don't really bother getting a turnip. Cause they would tornado to you. And if he spamms Nado, limit the use of turnips and be aware of a tornado when you have a distance between you two. Turnips are a must and do help. But careful when getting one, really when he is at a distance he can reach you with tornado.

This pretty much goes for anything else you do, cause he you can do an air attack and meta can just tornado you out of it. Keep your eyes on meta all the time. Also I don't see many people doing this, and I seriously don't get why. But when Meta tornados your shield, aim it to where he is. Done right, Meta can NOT shield stab you, then punish out the shield with a grab or dash attack out of shield. Hell, even Jab him out of shield. This is what I always do to meta,s who tornado me and I shield. Seriously, your shield is more godly then you think.

And Metas to spot dodge to Dsmashes are typical metas. They will do anything to that move cause it is quick, so of course people will abuse it. Thats why I just short hop Dair and tell them to p[ack it up. But smart metas would replace that with Up-B out of shield or Nairs. Sometimes Fairs.

Ways to Deal with the Tornado:

(Distance tornado rush)- This is when a Meta spaces or camps moves like down air and know you won't move into them. So at this time a Peach would usually get a turnip. Then they move in with a tornado and hit you. Or if you are close to them and run away to get space or a turnip, a tornado would follow. So be aware of this. And get ready to Fsmash him.

(Tornado wall)- Ok I don't see many people doing this and I seriously don't know why. When Meta tornados your shield, MOVE your shield to where he is. Do this and meta will NOT, thats correct, NOT, shield stab you. No matter how small it is. Peach is not a big, fat character. She is one of the many few that can get away with this. From there, Dash attack out of shield, Ground float out of shield to an air attack. Or grab. Depends on how far he lands away from you.

(Tornado counter reversal)- If you ever get caught in it, Tap the contol stick up as fast as you can and the jump button. You will be able to jump out of it. Things I do is I jump out and float. Then Dair him and hits him out of it. Or jump and when he tornado is over and he falls to the floor, I fall right after and Dair or Nair. I can break out of that move like 80% of the time now.

(Tornado Break)- You can break the tornado by aiming for the for corners of the move. While People like Edreese do it with Bairs. I do it fair airs (just easier for me). All turnips can break the tornado. You have to play basket ball now. If you can shoot a turnip in the center of the move, it will clap him out of it. No matter what turnip it is. You gotta go for them three pointers. I was telling Mikey about this. Also if you are on a stage with platforms and he tornados, you can use the platforms to get above him and throw one straight down inside. Sometimes I just jump over meta and throw a turnip down. Really them spammy ones.

getting back on the stage is a pain. Don't test metas moves while recovering. Just leave them alone. To avoid a fight is not to start one. So don't Cause you gonna leave yourself open and take hits. Just chill out and move in and out in the air. Screw trying to fight him in the air cause you mostly likely gonna lose when returning. Just worry about getting back and don't abuse your air dodge out of fear when he is near you, you will take easy hits. Just move in and out and don't rush to get back on stage. You will be surprised on how this simple crap works.

Don't keep trying to get or focus on turnips so much. Cause you will just be open for a tornado. Most of these metas will just space moves and see if you would try and rush in and get hit. If not then the next thing is to see if you would run off to a turnip or float to some air attack, thats when they go in for the tornado. So just keep your eye on meta at all times.

A really good use of her jab screws up meta. And not just your typical Jab>grab and stuff like that. Jab to bait and even evade to lead openings on him and take a hit on him. But you need qucik reaction time.

If meta glides attacks you, toad it. screw trying to go and hit him with an air attack. Just toad it. if he does it out the shield and goes to glide attack. Toad it. If you seem him recovering to the stage glide attacking, go out and toad him. You 2 things can happen

- Meta takes the hit
- he does nothing and goes through you (In fear he would get spores to the face)

Ether way it is good for you. Now if he wants to cancel his up-B, You already got him where you want him. Why? Cause not you got that ******* second guessing wether or not to strike or not. And tokk away one of his best killing options. Not if you feel he catches on and he would cancel his glide attack when you go near him, you can just go out and nair him. I say Nair cause that move is not all that for killing, so why burn a kill move and stale it if he is not gonna die to begin with, save that free hit for a move like Nair. Now you can mess with his head about glide attack. or even attack out of the shield with up-B. Mindgames.
 

Nefarious B

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The interesting thing to me is that most of the stuff you said about beating MK also relates to the MK matchup. IMO ZSS just does it better than Peach, which is why I feel she does better. Here's how it looks for ZSS:

Spacing: This matchup boils down to one big spacing battle. ZS's bair has good range and fast startup to try and challenge MK's spacing. ZS's nB and side b outrange everything MK has, though these moves will be more for hassling MK at midrange than actually wracking damage. Anytime MK gets above ZS, she can punish it with her 4 frame uair to setup a juggle. MK's bad aerial mobility means that he is susceptible to up b and uair juggling, which is where ZS will do the most damage. ZS's greater mobility and damage wracking give her the overall advantage in the air.

Any failure to powershield or space well means the MK is going to get take a uair or utilt to get juggled, a DA to start grounded combos, or get hit by one of her mid range moves (side b does big damage and kb, nB combos into a DA or grab, which leads to an air release cg, or a dsmash, which guarantees anything from 30-50%, a kill move, or a spike).

We all know how well MK can string moves and lead into gimps, so essentially both characters are battling to get a hit which will lead to big damage. In this way the matchup is very momentum based.

Speed: While MK is the fastest character attack wise, overall ZS can keep up better than just about any other character. She has as fast or faster ground speed, faster aerial mobility and verticle acceleration, and very fast moves as well.

Killing: ZS has good killing power, not great but solid. She also has multiple kill moves which makes it so she doesn't have to force a kill or conserve moves. Her fair, bair, uair, and side b all will kill well, and if you happen to land a dsmash it's a guaranteed kill move or spike.

Recovery: ZS has a very adaptable recovery. She can use her boost jump (jump and immediately up b) to have the highest vertical jump in the game allowing her to recover high which can help avoid MK's amazing gimping abilities. Her side b, fair, bair, and uair all have uses in challenging MK's gimp attempts to knock him back as you try and recover. The actual distance that she can recover is amazing, but of all characters MK has by far the easiest time gimping her.

The reason why ZS doesn't go even or beat MK is because her ground game is much worse. If MK goes into the air ZS has the tools to beat him, but a more ground focused MK will give ZS a much harder time.

So this really comes down to spacing, and each character trying to keep the other in the zones they are better in. When ZS punishes, she punishes harder % wise, but MK will win slightly more often when the clash and he has the possibility of gimping which she can't do to MK.
 

Dark.Pch

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I see. Does seem she does better aginst Meta than Peach does. Don't have much to argue on this one seeing how her match up goes. But let me compare something.

Killing- If moves are not stale, Peach has a few good options to kill meta:

-Fair
-Bair
-Fsmash (Frying pan gets it done, the rest NEED to be sweetspot
-Upsmash
-Upair
-Off stage toad
-Uptilt

I feel Peach has more options to kill, But ZSS has better ways to set up her kill moves.

Speed- Peach has good combat with Meta on the ground with her jab game. Really when mixed with spacing and evasion. meta really does not have more range then us outside his Ftilt and Fsmash. (I think out of the three hits of his Ftilt, one of them Peach out ranges. I have to test that out) Peach can be all over meta done right, But it is hard and tricky cause an up-B can break it. With is why spacing and evasion is important. And her range helps alot.

Revovery. Sometimes it is best for Peach to do nothing and just pull away. This is how I usually recovery against meta. And make it back. Or if timed correctly, Fair air him when he goes to hit you. Thats about the only option Peach has. But you can get good distance to get over the stage if you recover high and:

Toad
F-B (twice can equal half a stage distance)
Second jump
Float

Peach can also recover below the stage against meta if done right to get back on. Since it is hard to hit her from below (Love my up-B)

In Comparison to Peach and ZSS in general, what I see is this (And feel free to correct me on this if you want do. I only know my main in and out.):

- ZSS Has more range that Peach but her spacing game is slow. Whicn at times, is not hard to get inside her.
- Peach Spacing is quickers than ZSS
- ZSS can link up well in the air and get good or most of her kills from it. Really with her air speed she has.
- Peach Has a better ground game and pressure game. Eating a good amout of a shield. She can even bring her air game to the ground thanks to ground floating. So this increases the spacing, pressure and evasion. She becomes hard to hit or get away from.
- ZSS has moves, setups to get her enemy in the air. And this is where he gets her kills.
- Peach has more options to edguard and zone in on her enemy thanks to floating and turnips.
 

adumbrodeus

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Its why you take tournaments by storm right?
Nah, he's good, he was better then me at Snes, that said I have realized that I suck at the Ganondorf match-up, and for whatever reason am quite good at the captain falcon match-up with peach.


Course at pound 4 I can't counter-pick mute city...
 

ShadowLink84

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Nah, he's good, he was better then me at Snes, that said I have realized that I suck at the Ganondorf match-up, and for whatever reason am quite good at the captain falcon match-up with peach.


Course at pound 4 I can't counter-pick mute city...
Still wouldn't matter adum.

Just because his waste smells like flowers, and yours smells like nectarines, doesnt change the fact that its **** in the end.
 

Xebenkeck

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hey new discussion

Ganon isn't the worst in the game
May i be inclined to ask why?
When you have 11-12 match-ups that are 85-15 or worse i don't see how he isn't the worst.

But i will admit, in a fighting game, for being the worst character, he is stilll a pretty good worst character, in comparison to other fighting games' worst characters.
 

adumbrodeus

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Still wouldn't matter adum.

Just because his waste smells like flowers, and yours smells like nectarines, doesnt change the fact that its **** in the end.
Eh, I may not be good yet, but steady improvement, give me time and a constant stream of good players (which thankfully stony brook often obliges through it's "**** brawl, let's play melee" scene, granted we don't really have national class, but I've been developing contacts and a lot of them are close) and it won't be **** anymore, I might even make money were I in a worse region.


Unfortunately, I am truly trash at Brawl.
 

Nefarious B

Smash Champion
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Messages
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Frisco you know
Killing- If moves are not stale, Peach has a few good options to kill meta:

-Fair
-Bair
-Fsmash (Frying pan gets it done, the rest NEED to be sweetspot
-Upsmash
-Upair
-Off stage toad
-Uptilt
This is where I have to say that while it's important to have a variety of kill moves to avoid being predictable, you also need to have good options.

I'm not sure, but I believe that Peach's fair and ZSS's bair are around the same as far as kill power goes. They both have great range, are safe and disjointed, and so I think we can probably say these are each character's overall "best" option. There are a few differences between them though. Obviously, ZSS's is faster, and this is a huge deal in landing a kill move. Other differences are really more character specific: Peach is less limited because she can hit a grounded meta, whereas ZS can only do a rising bair if MK is in the air due to her high SH. However, Meta likes to hang out in the area where ZS can hit with the rising bair while spacing with fairs and dairs, which makes this less of an issue compared to other matchups with short characters.

From what I understand your bair is a good option since it's faster, but also lacks as much kill power. Your fsmash, while strong, seems like it would be hard to land on a MK, and you're stationary while using it which to me means it probably has to be mindgamed into and cant really be setup for well. Same goes for usmash I would think. I don't really know about killing power for utilt or how good the move is at all. I would think that toad would be situational at best.

I already went over bair which is ZS's best kill move. Her other options are uair, fair, side b, and dsmash because it leads into all of the above. Side b is more of an offstage pressure tool. It takes mindgaming to land it because of it's long startup. That being said, it is very powerful and since good mains wont really be using this move too much it can actually be an excellent kill move if used well. Her fair is slightly faster than her bair (6 frames vs 8) and has slightly less killing power, though still very good. This move is also generally fresh because there are better moves for damage wracking usually. Uair is our primary damage tool, so this is usually going to be stale, but if it's not too stale it can kill very well, and all of ZS's ground moves set up opponents into a position to be juggle trapped into a uair.

Dsmash is really more of a "if they messed up" punisher. It's very good when it hits, but like side b it has to be mindgamed, and it's ground only so this diminishes its utility. Great for punishing misspaced aerials or airdodges onto the ground

ZS will get her kills mostly from baiting air dodges with nB or side b as an opponent is trying to avoid a juggle, and then following their DI and using either bair, uair, or fair.

Moving on to this:
- ZSS Has more range that Peach but her spacing game is slow. Whicn at times, is not hard to get inside her.
- Peach Spacing is quickers than ZSS
This depends on what you're using for spacing. Side b, nB, and dsmash are all situational tools depending on the matchup, and against good MKs they're not really good for anything other than baiting dodges in a juggle, so we won't be using them much. Bair, uair, and nair are primary spacing tools, and dtilt and ftilt are decent as well though not really against MK.
- ZSS can link up well in the air and get good or most of her kills from it. Really with her air speed she has.
This is absolutely correct, her metagame essentially revolves around knocking you into the air, juggling you, then limiting your options so badly with her range that you either take one KO move or dodge it and get hit by another KO move.
- Peach Has a better ground game and pressure game. Eating a good amout of a shield. She can even bring her air game to the ground thanks to ground floating. So this increases the spacing, pressure and evasion. She becomes hard to hit or get away from.
Peach's ground game is definitely better. I disagree that she becomes harder to hit or get away from though. I feel that ZS's speed in all areas gives her the edge in pursuing and getting away.

- ZSS has moves, setups to get her enemy in the air. And this is where he gets her kills.
Yes
- Peach has more options to edguard and zone in on her enemy thanks to floating and turnips.
I don't really know how Peach edge guards so I can't really comment on that, though I will say that ZS is an excellent edgeguarder because she can throw out huge hitboxes that will outrange anything the opponent has, and if they can't powershield her moves they become much harder to deal with. Peach definitely approaches better than ZSS
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
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i deal with metas mainly with turnips and patience, Ftilt sweetspotted will kill meta at about 150ish range, which isn't too tough to get him too since meta is pretty susceptible to combo's. Fsmash is actually not as hard to land as u would think, you can usually Fsmash meta out of tornado or even shuttle loop. the way i see it is basically this

defensive meta > peach

offensive meta < peach

defensive meta < ZSS

offensive meta > ZSS

basically peach handles pressure alot better than ZSS but ZSS has a superior spacing game. i still think they both have about the same ratio against MK.
 

N.A.G.A.C.E

Smash Champion
Joined
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NY (LI)
Eh, I may not be good yet, but steady improvement, give me time and a constant stream of good players (which thankfully stony brook often obliges through it's "**** brawl, let's play melee" scene, granted we don't really have national class, but I've been developing contacts and a lot of them are close) and it won't be **** anymore, I might even make money were I in a worse region.


Unfortunately, I am truly trash at Brawl.
what do u mean stony brook has a pretty dam good brawl scene.
There is me, Will, and sorto for starters
then we have many other solid players like devin, Asce, peter just to name a few. The stony brawl scene is legit
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
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Tri-state area
what do u mean stony brook has a pretty dam good brawl scene.
There is me, Will, and sorto for starters
then we have many other solid players like devin, Asce, peter just to name a few. The stony brawl scene is legit
Not saying anything about the actual brawl players, I'm talking specifically about it's "**** brawl, let's play melee" scene.


We have a legit Brawl scene too, but come on, you can't tell me that doesn't describe basically our entire melee scene's exact words a few months after Brawl came out and because they moved en mass we have a strong melee scene, as opposed to a lot of areas that are Brawl only now.
 

Dark.Pch

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When I say quicker spacing I mean I can follow up quickly arfter I space my moves thanks to auto cancel.

Peach does becamce hard to hit or het away from cause her pressure game is really good. You should see the stuff I do here in NY to people. The fact that my spacing is quick and my pressure game is good makes this al true. And it is a mixture or rotating moves.

Peach landing a Fsmash on meta is not hard due to his size and range.

Words from me to Peachs so you can get a better understanding on how things work:

Save your moves that you need for killing. Use lots of jabs, get damage off of grabbing. When you grab them don't always launch them so fast. Kick them a few good times then toss them. N-air cant kill so well so use that alot. Dair helps since its not a Kill move. Space dtilts. And turnips. Once you get them to a good % Now you can fely on your kills moves like Fsmash and Up smash. Your fair and bairs, even upairs. uptilt as well. Try to save your most important moves to kill. Cause when you get them to that good %, all of your kill moves will be at full power. And it will be less of a struggle to kill.

Also Her upthrow can be a good tool for Killing.

"What, an Upthrow? the hell, How, that throw sucks and people hardly use it."

Oh? Well let me explain. At 50% and over, you really can't combo into anything. if you was to Fthrow them and Back throw them, then what. They are out of your range. and have to repeat the process of approaching them again. When you up throw them, They are over you, you can use turnips to at least hit them, or make it harder for them to touch the floor. And set up to land an attack on them. This is the more better ways to hit someone after a throw. This is center stage though. Near the edge you can just toss them out. but with some characters, Like DDD, DK, you are not gonna kill them off of a throw. So the hell with that right? Toss them up and get extra hits of of turnips, and even if that dont hit, they have to worry about evading them and then you hitting them while trying to land saftley to the floor. They will still Be in your attack range for turnips and even finishers more than any other throw at 50%+

Also she is good at racking up damage in w ways. Her Attacks and turnips. If you are gonna spam anything. it should not be your fair. it should be:

-Nair
-Dair
-Dtilt
-Jab
-Dsmash
-Turnips
-Grabs
-Up-B, used right and I am dead serious. 12% of damage I believe and good knock back at the final hit so you can't get punished for it that easy.
-Bair (sometimes.)
Uptilt (sometimes)
Uair (sometimes)

Now look at this list here. What is missing from here? Thats right, her kill options:
Fair
Fsmash
Upsmash.

The moves that have (somestimes) in them are moves that can kill as well but sometines are used to rack up damage, like within comboes. Now when I say spamm I don't mean be a dunce with the moves. uses them wall and with a brain to get some hits off. Then you still got your kill moves to kill earlier than expected. You can't just play Peach to play her. if your character can't just boldly kill, you can;t just go swinging attacks and playing so typical. This is why Peach does not get anywhere and people don't really see what she is about. Thus she is bias on her self and against characters. As well as people saying the typical stuff about her for over a year now.

"how can Peach rack up damage quick and early?"

Besides the chain grab we have:

Basic combos

-Dthrow>uptilt
-Dair>Nair
-Dair>Uair
-Dair>Fair
-Dair>Bair
-Jab>Dtilt
-Jab>grab
-Jab>Nair
-Jab>Nair
-Turnip>fair
-Turnip>Nair

Advance combos ( you would need good control of Peach and her floating as well)-

*= Depends on where your enemy is/goes after the first or second hit of the combo

-*Dair>Dair>Fair
-Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair
-Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair
-*Dair>Dair>Dair>Uair>Up-B
-*Dair>Dair>falling Dair>Usmash/Utilt/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Uptilt/Usmash/Up-B
-*Dthrow>Ftilt>Jab>grab>Dthrow>Utilt/Uair/Up-B
-Bair>grab
-Fair>Jab>grab> (look at the list of what you can do after grabs)
-*Falling Dair>Jab>(look at the list of what you can do after jabs/grabs)
-*Falling Dair> Usmash/Utilt/Up-B/Nair/Bair

Now look at the list of moves I said to use alot that have (sometimes) in them. Then look at the combo list. Makes since to why it has (sometimes) next to them right you might already be using the move to get damage. So the won' be fresh for kill. other times they will.

Peach is like Chess, you just CAN'T go in there and say "ok, I wanna get this pawn with my rook" When there is a pawn right by it that can take you out. Now in Brawl terms.

You can just go swinging all your kill moves and all. You can get all the hits you wan't. Then when you get to that kill %, you are in trouble, you can't kill them at % they should be dead. And that sucks for you, and you already not a solid killer. oh man. then your enemy is gonna take you out easy. So you have to think how you gonna keep them kill moves fresh, and get your damage by new means. Peach and chess have something in common so you know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also another way to make it harder to hit Peach is with a good use of her Dtilt.

For one thing, you got the Dtilt Slide. It helps with my spacing and evasion. You get 2 things out of this. Really three cause you can counter attack. This is what I do with it:

Dtilt>slide>Jab
Dtilt>slide>Fsmash
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Fair
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Nair
Dtilt>slide>Turnip>Glide toss>Dtilt>slide> w/e you want after
Dtilt>slide>Toad (mindgame material)
Dtilt>slide>reverse bair
Dtilt>slide>Dair (if they come to you and wanna attack from the ground.)
Dtilt>slide>Dtilt>Slide>w/e

All this leads to many things and can be mixed and match. You can get pressure, spacing, evasion, and counter attacking all at once. And thanks to Peach's range, It would be hard for people to touch you. This is really effective against fast characters. This one thing improves Peach spacing by alot to create this annoying wall.

 

Kitamerby

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 9, 2007
Messages
5,729
Location
Las Vegas
Still wouldn't matter adum.

Just because his waste smells like flowers, and yours smells like nectarines, doesnt change the fact that its **** in the end.
I wish my **** smelled like nectarines.

Also, MenoUnderwater always has the best avatars ever.

And to stay on topic, Peach's a tl;dr on the combo section of Drk Pch's essay is that Peach's dair is gay as hell and combos into everything.
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
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Smashsk
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May i be inclined to ask why?
When you have 11-12 match-ups that are 85-15 or worse i don't see how he isn't the worst.

But i will admit, in a fighting game, for being the worst character, he is stilll a pretty good worst character, in comparison to other fighting games' worst characters.
Samus, Link, Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon are also terrible characters, having an extremely large amount of ***** matchups, just that Ganon's list is even larger, but still Captain Falcon having absolutely no advantage matchups like Ganon (I still think Ganon/Falcon is 50/50 and so seems all the videos I've seen with people like Koskinator, it's just so that whoever decides to approach first loses). Like Ganon, you can never expect them winning a large tournament. And if talking about non-tourney viable characters, the list is much larger. So still it is very very possible to have a character replacing Ganon. And no one uses Jigglypuff or Samus (except Xyro), but many people use Ganon.

Brawl's balance sucks, there is much more than just Ganon that really sucks. He sucks in singles, but Ganon isn't the worst in doubles.
 

Prawn

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,031
so can someone answer when the next list comes out?

I think it's time tbh
 

swordgard

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
5,503
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Canada
You know dark.pch, I doubt arguing the way you do will bring you anything. If you firmly believe peach is that good, then place top 8 at a national (and not SNES, as much as SNES was hyped, it was definitely not the size of other nationals nor had the competitions other did like Apex, Genesis or Pound 4). Once you bring up such evidence, nobody will question that peach is that good.

I ain't saying that what your saying is wrong, only stating that the easiest way to prove people are wrong is to place very well and outright destroy their expectations.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
Messages
17,885
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Houston,Tx
For those of you that have been using me as an argument, thanks!!!!

But let me be clear, just because ONE samus and/or low tier player can do something doesnt mean ALL samus/low tier players can. Samus's place on the tier list is almost dead on accurate. IMO she should move up one or 2 spots but does it really matter?



PS: if you guys really knew what i do with samus to get my wins over players that are better than me, would you still think highly of me? I wonder.





EDIT: there will not be a new list this month or maybe even the next. please be patient.
 

Dark.Pch

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You know dark.pch, I doubt arguing the way you do will bring you anything. If you firmly believe peach is that good, then place top 8 at a national (and not SNES, as much as SNES was hyped, it was definitely not the size of other nationals nor had the competitions other did like Apex, Genesis or Pound 4). Once you bring up such evidence, nobody will question that peach is that good.

I ain't saying that what your saying is wrong, only stating that the easiest way to prove people are wrong is to place very well and outright destroy their expectations.
If SNES did not mean anything, then why was I the only Peach main to make it out of pools and score 13th. if it was that easy, I love to see others do what I do. I keep hearing stuff like this all the time. if it is that simple and don't mean much, Then I seriously should not be placing this high OR others should be able to as Peach. But they don't. So Please don't try to make excuses. Top get that placing was not easy. Unless people wanna prove me wrong, just pick up Peach and do better than I do around here. i did not think so..........

And cause a few people around here don't see Peach as a good character like I speak about don't really mean much to me. Cause people around here since the summer time see me beast when I decided to play different. thus showing improvement and getting good results. As well as beating tuff players. So if you think I am all talk and no action you are seriously wrong. Ask the EC about me. And as time passes, people slwoly start to see how good she is around here thanks to me. if people still wanna be on the Peach crap they they were when brawl first came out, then thats them. People who see he hack it in person know the deal, and thats what matters. People who know lil about me or enever seen me play in tournament have nothing to say about me or my Peach in general.

Now that I got a job, I can go back to playing in tournies and I'm about to fully unleash what I can do with this character. Plays times over.
 
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