The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[TLMSheikant]

Has anyone noticed ur all being trolled? By a kirby...

 

[.Marik]

Has anyone noticed ur all being trolled? By a kirby...

It's pretty easy to just assume somebody is trolling.

And technically, you're only being trolled if you react in a negative manner, which is the attention a troll seeks.

Most of us are calm, so we're still non-chalantly discussing these claims amongst each other.

 

[rathy Aro]

Is Planet Mars Trolling:

Have i directly insulted anyone? Nope
Have i voice an opinion on something? Yes
Have i said any character a particular person on this forum plays is 'trash'? Nope
Have i claimed the forum is lousy? Other than disagreeing, which is natural, nope
Have i claimed to be the best player in the world? Nope
Have i claimed that I know Kirby's potential and can emerge victorious in most battles with him? Yes

The point of a troll is to get at least one person to be anywhere from enraged to slightly displeased. If you were a troll you would have already succeeded.

A common and effective way of trolling is acting ignorant and saying things that are blatantly false, foolish, or offensive as if you believe its true. The things you have said really are foolish and you do seem ignorant so you could easily be a troll. I doubt you are though, because people like you have come on before.

If you want to know why I say you seem ignorant/foolish, its because you said you could win a national tournament. This has nothing to do with kirby, but everything to do with you. Even if you played metaknight I still wouldn't believe you could so much as make top 10 simply, because no one has ever heard of you. Many people play lvl 9s, visit smashbords, and beat their friends around the world, but they don't have the experience of high level play they need to win tournies.

And Kirby is okay. Chu has been known to do pretty well with him and Chu is one of those people who has been good forever as opposed to you who no one has ever heard of.

Getting to the point: Don't talk **** here even if you think it sounds polite. Just keep silent for now. Win Pound 4 or Winterfest first and then come back here and preach.

On topic: Kirby should fall 5 spots on the next list.

Spoiler

/Obious troll

 

[Toby.]

Everyone starts out thinking that they have what it takes to win high level tournaments. CPU's and unskilled friends make all players feel exceptional.

Most players find out that they aren't anywhere near exceptional. Most players find out that they are terrible.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Ignorant people with no comprehension of how big a place the world is think that.
It's kind of fun to watch reality kick them in the head and steal their lunch money, like it will to this Mars fellow the second he tries to seriously prove his ridiculous claims.

 

[volume]

so now...... whats the fight about again?

 

[Chuee]

Planet Mars why are you even here. It's obvious you know absolutely nothing about competitive brawl seeing as how you think snake is terrible and kirby is one of the best characters. Everything you say is completely silly and sounds ridiculous.
It's ****ing obvious that you're trolling us. Trolling isn't insulting someone. That is flaming. Trolling is saying something that is supposed to aggravate people.
You going far in a regional/national? Not gonna happen. You probably haven't even been to one single tournament (gamestop tournaments don't count) seeing as how you think you're such a great player and would beat everyone. I encourage you to go to an offline tourney. Maybe then you'll finally realize kirby isn't so great when you get 2-0ed by everyone in your pool. I'd love to see you're cocky *** go fight M2K and get 3 stocked each match with M2K having less than 30%.

 

[Kewkky]

If he wins the tourneys or places really high, I will laugh at all of you, just because I can.

... Maybe then you'll finally realize kirby isn't so great when you get...

I am insulted.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

C'mon guys, I'm sure he'll do fine. With enough skill you can beat anybody. I'm assuming he has played the game enough to know what he's saying and he should definately place high in Pound4.

Spoiler

Epic sarcasm is epic

inb4moreofftopic: 60:40 Falco. Next.

 

[Chuee]

I am insulted.

I was saying he would realize that Kirby isn't as great as he thinks he is.

 

[volume]

(gamestop tournaments don't count)

awww =/ ive never been to a real tourney then XD

 

[humble]

...Anyways, what do you guys think of G-dubs? up? down?

 

[Chuee]

Down one or two spots.

 

[humble]

Down one or two spots.

Who will be rising to replace him then?

 

[Kewkky]

Who will be rising to replace him then?

The 1-2 characters below him. /lolz

 

[TLMSheikant]

I think gaw should move down. Same with rob. Who would take their place? ZSS and some other char.

 

[volume]

zss can =P

 

[Kewkky]

As long as Kirby stays in high tier, I'm good.

 

[phi1ny3]

But Liquid, I only wanted to debunk some basic facts that could be seen even in a bad video.
Also, there weren't any others besides Mr. Eh's, and well lombardi wasn't buying it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I really appreciate your kind reply--you're the most mature member i've encountered so far. I understand these tiers now after doing some research, but i still disagree with it entirely. I wouldn't have disagreed if i was a newer smasher, or if i wasn't mastering Kirby. However, playing as him and mastering him has had me achieve great things. Pit a professional Meta Knight against me and i will win. Some 'pros' may not be able to counter him in every match, but i can, and i have. Pikachu is also much faster, more agile, and at times more strong than Snake, so i don't see how he's there. Pikachu and Kirby can destroy Diddy Kong, so this list isn't accurate in the sense that all characters have a niche they fit into. There are good characters and not so good characters, which is determined by 'safeness' in the hands of a good player, as you said. However, a true player of a particular character can and will be able to beat any competitor. The people who follow this bible don't understand that. So yes, i'm Anti-tier. Yes, i believe each character has an equal chance behind a skilled player. And yes, i believe that this tier list is going to make meta knight, snake, and diddy kong show up in 99% of the tournaments, only to lose.

I hope there's another tournament coming up soon, so i can show those tryhards why this list is biased

I have to start with this, nobody believes that any character cannot be beaten with any other character. Tier lists measure which characters are best in the metagame overall (in terms of how many characters they beat and who) while match-ups determine how much of a skill difference you need in order to win with the losing characters.

So i should 'master a top tier character' to be like all the other people who think this thing makes you a good player?

How misguided this community is...
The whole point of having 30+ characters is so you pick your favorite and play them. If you meet someone with 10 skill with a character, you have to be 11. If you meet someone with 20 skill, you have to be 21. You always have to be more skilled than your opponent, because if you're equally skilled, of course the better character will win. Am i making sense?

Good. Bowser VS Meta Knight--very unlikely to win this battle, but if the Bowser is good, Meta Knight will be floating off the stage in an unpleasant manner. If Bowser is less or equal to the skill of Meta Knight, then there's no way Bowser is going to win other than luck.

That's all true.

This is why this Tier list isn't accurate. All it says is "play with this character if you want to win" When your opponent is equal to you. But how will you know if your opponent is equal to you? That's why you strive to be the best with that character. You don't let a guideline determine who or how you play. You become the best with your character, knowing what they can and cannot do. That will be what separates equal players all the time. You're talking to someone who's been in 400+ tournaments, and placed top in each one of them with Mario, Pichu, Pikachu or Kirby

Play in nationals, please, if you're that good then you should be more out in the community.

But you misunderstand the fundamental idea of the tier list, the idea is not, "pick the best character or even the top 9 or lose". I'm perfectly fine picking marth (my favorite character), Zelda/Sheik, or Ganondorf even though I know none of them are top tier.

The tier list is merely knowledge (imperfect knowledge but knowledge). Even though the knowledge may cause people to pick from the top of the list, that should never cause us to choose to withhold the knowledge.

If all my opponents in said tournament are 20 skill and i'm 38, why would i pick the same character they're playing as? I supposed it could be means to humiliate them, but if that was the case i'd pick the 'wtf mr game and watch character'. There's just no competition if you're fighting lower players. And equal players always have the character advantage, simply because that's just how character specific gameplay is. If that's what this tier list is trying to say, then i agree. But no 2 players can be exactly equal, and someone will always have a playstyle that is different than the norm, which will triumph over battle. Plain and Simple.

The problem is, skill level can override all, but it requires enough to do so. For example, lets say your opponent is level 83 and you're level 89, you're Ganondorf and they're ICs, who's gonna win?

Your opponent, because even though you're a better player, this particular match-up requires so much of an advantage that the gap isn't enough. That's why there's match-ups, it allows you to figure out if the gap is small enough.

These tiers are just for tournaments as well--have you played Meta Knight in Subspace? He fails miserably.

Actually he's not bad, nair is a great boss killer.

You play a Lvl 9 Peach, Luigi, Mario, Wolf, Shiek like you would a human opponent and make that statement again.

But that's the thing, you don't approach them like you would a human, you need to play totally differently because they have frame 1 reactions (unlike our frame 1).

On the other hand, they're programmed to respond to specific stimuli (that's how AIs work) and so you can learn to fight them based on that. That's the difference between them and humans, they're stuck in the same pattern and will always do the same thing in the exact same circumstance, read them and you'll win.

AI-fighting and human-fighting are totally different skills.

If you're implying that i spam a move with Kirby to win then i'm not sure i'm following the point of that post

More power to you if you can, but no.

That wasn't about kirby, the point was that he created a character that was immensely weak, and asked you, "isn't it obvious that this character has little potential and requires immense skill gaps to win with, doesn't this suggest that smaller gaps can exist?"

Paraphrased, but a truism, required gaps can be tiny or they can be massive, but they're pretty much always there.

Everyone starts out thinking that they have what it takes to win high level tournaments. CPU's and unskilled friends make all players feel exceptional.

Most players find out that they aren't anywhere near exceptional. Most players find out that they are terrible.

I'm terrible at this game, not at melee though, I'm just ok.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Tiers don't exist, but Snake is a terrible character.

 

[TLMSheikant]

......Im gone from this thread. ^ thats why.

 

[Kewkky]

......Im gone from this thread. ^ thats why.

Wow, that's pretty elitistic. So, instead of helping them better understand the thread's discussions, you abandon it, ignore them, and point out their lack of knowledge to be the reason?

That is not cool.

 

[YesNoMaybeSo]

Planet Mars, stop it, you're more of a troll than me.

 

[BSP]

Tiers don't exist, but Snake is a terrible character.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Semicolon/Treatise_on_the_Existence_of_Tiers

Go there please.

If snake is terrible, ganon is as good as A button man

Not only is your statement false, but you failed to put any reasoning behind it.

 

[Smoom77]

The one thing I have to say is that nowhere does it say you should play high tier because they're better and not play low tier because they suck. But everyone wants to win somewhat. If you don't want to win and only have fun, you're not playing competitively.

 

[Albert.]

I wish there was an auto-ignore. like on Facebook "remove from news feed" this person.

there are some dip**** ****ign stupid morons in this thread.

VENT

bad night.

 

[Red Arremer]

Y'all got trolled by MysteriousSilver.

 

[Chuee]

Planet Mars, stop it, you're more of a troll than me.

Too good............

 

[da K.I.D.]

I'm terrible at this game, not at melee though, I'm just ok.

No... youre pretty goddang awful at melee too...

 

[Kinzer]

No... youre pretty goddang awful at melee too...

Because knowing this is vital to the discussion about tiers.

Only reason I haven't put you on ignore myself is because I love a good laugh every now and then.

 

[phi1ny3]

I see a lot of Monkey vs. Robot going on in this thread.

Why can't we be a little more logical/patient?

Edit: already stated by a lot of people.

 

[Tidal]

things

@ Planet_Mars

The Tier-list is a character ranking, it basically shows how good a character is thought to be compared to the other characters. This list is created by a voting process by a select group of very experienced Brawl players, the Backroom Members. They have analysed the tools and properties that each character has, and seen how these can be applied in combat. Based on this, they judge how well a character will do against others when used by a player with perfect knowledge and control of this character. The higher a character is on the list, the better its overall moveset, advanced techniques and statistics are. This does not correlate entirely with its match-up ratings, some characters have amazing match-up ratings because of their type of tools but the tools themselves aren’t found impressive enough to be top tier.

As a forum member with a limited amount of posts and no reputation amongst the community, making controversial claims over how well characters do against eachother is generally not a good idea. Because you have no reputation, tournament results or facts to back up your statements, people will find your claims hollow and meaningless. If you wish to be believed, you should provide arguments over why you think you are right.

The list is only applicable when two players that both have perfect knowledge and control of their characters fight. If either of them has superior knowledge and control, he is far more likely to win than the tier list dictates. Here on Smashboards people consider only the this case when discussing, because with one player of superior skill there’s little to discuss; he will virtually always have a better chance of winning.

People or lists aren’t telling you what character you can or cannot play. The lists only attempts to provide information for players to base their choice on, not to make them feel obliged to to anything. Because such experienced players have made the list, it is generally believed, and used as an argument in discussions, but it cannot and does not pretend to be the law of Brawl. People are free to pick any character they want and go to tournaments with them, and they do.

What character you pick does not influence your qualities as a player. Incredible players have been using characters that overall do poorly in tournaments, for various reasons. And it didn’t make them worse. Just look at Xyro. You can have fun with any character, but the list is here to show you that at top level, you shouldn’t expect to win tournaments with low tier characters. Of course you can still beat friends and local tournies with your character, if you’re good.

You're talking to someone who's been in 400+ tournaments, and placed top in each one of them with Mario, Pichu, Pikachu or Kirby

If you can back this claim up with even a single video or tournament result, you will gain a lot of credibility.

The tier list is here only for 1 vs 1, top level Brawl combat. It is not a list for CPU combat or adventure mode rankings.

There are different kinds of people on Smashboards. Some are “immature kids”, some are experienced professionals, and most are casual players. Not everyone behaves alike, few people base everything they do on the Tier list. It can be used as an argument in discussion, but never as proof for anything or as some sort of law.

People in this site have amassed an enormous amount of experience and knowledge on these forums. They have followed the game as it evolved from early stages to how it is now, followed tournament placings, played and analysed the characters themselves for ages, and discussed amongst eachother. As a community, we know what we are talking about (seperate forum members may not though). How come you think you are right about your claims when faced with such vast knowledge? Would you claim thousands of people have been wrong about the characters you mentioned? It is possible, but due to the knowledge and insight people have in this game, it is extremely unlikely that one person can do such a thing. That is why people are inclined not to take you seriously.

People that say low tier characters suck, are only right up to a certain degree. These characters are less likely to win consistently in a competitive environment. Other than that, it doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t mean you cannot have fun with your character, it doesn’t mean you can’t beat less skilled players with it, it doesn’t mean you are bad, it doesn’t mean it is impossible to win a top level tournament with your character.

 

[Conviction]

Tidal we've actually already taken care of the problem. I sent Planet Mars a helpful PM and I think some one else did. So let's get off that subject and move onto something different.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Y'all got trolled by MysteriousSilver.

 

[.Marik]

Tidal we've actually already taken care of the problem. I sent Planet Mars a helpful PM and I think some one else did. So let's get off that subject and move onto something different.

That would be me.

Also, excellent post by Tidal.

 

[ShadowLink84]

No... youre pretty goddang awful at melee too...

Its why you take tournaments by storm right?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm slowly starting to think Peach is better that ZSS. Thoughts

(Oh man this is gonna be a good one with comments I bet)

 

[Red Arremer]

Dark.Pch, if it went like you think, then Peach would have an advantage on every single character in the game and would be Top Tier.

 

[Meru.]

I have thought that since a long time. However, ZSS' results are waaaay better than Peach's results.

But I'm a biased Peach main anyway ;p And I don't think ZSS is that good.

EDIT: Really Onishiba, that is not true at all. Dark Pch has stated many times that he does not see Peach higher than B tier. At least, at this moment.