The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Conviction]

Ok, so let's put this into perspective:

Melee--Fox v Mario. Who wins? Fox
now skilled fox v skilled mario. Who wins? Mario.

Don't believe me? Then you really don't understand each character's potential.

I'm not saying he wins everytime, and if both players are equally skilled (which rarely happens and is almost impossible to determine since no 2 players are alike) Fox does have a better chance. If that's what these tiers are, then i can agree with that. But does this mean tiers should decide which character someone plays? No, and that's what's frustrating me. People don't have any sort of reason to tell you that you cannot play a mid or low tier because they will lose. If i want to do a tournament with Pikachu the only thing stopping me is getting good with pikachu. Once i'm good with him, all those 'pro' meta knights wont stand a chance.

So your precious tiers are more like minor guidelines more than anything. If this tier was to govern the way people played Brawl, then every tom nick and harry would be playing Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, and Dedede. And Kirby loses to Dedede? That's just sad and totally inaccurate.

After following your post (XD) you're pretty funny... like you said earlier that might leave.... then please leave (lol) you're not listening to reason and people who have an understanding over the game. You may not know it but you are trolling,,,HARD...... posting false info.. ..and such hey great you made 2nd REGIONALS back when? (early 2008) and the game has changed sorry buddy but from listening to you, you put the -upid in stupid , unless they hire big bird or something your gonna need a smash doctor to help you out. Lol look at vids of ACTUAL PROS that go to OFFLINE TOURNIES and things as such. Not your so-called "pro" friends XD. Even if were to go post your crap into the Brawl Kirby boards they'd burn your *** too. But if you keep posting I don't care you are SOOOO funny. But on my end note go to a tourney and get *****......you must of crawled out of the bat cave.

 

[Flayl]

I know that. But this tier is having people choose specific characters to play, which are in fact very lousy characters for every other mode other than tournament. But the tier list isn't stress that enough.

When Meta Knight beats Pikachu at an even skill level i'll believe this list.

Go do some research then, plenty of MKs have beaten skilled pikachus. In fact, post in the Pikachu Q&A thread and ask if they lose to MKs of the same skill level.

 

[Planet Mars]

Tier lists assume both players are equally skilled. That's the whole point, seeing who's the best character at the top of the metagame - at the peak skill level, which characters will guarantee you more wins.

It's very difficult to match 'equal players'. There are certain things 1 more does over the other that will either win or lose the match. So essentially such matches cannot have a basis of who will win or lose. All characters have an equal chance behind a player of utmost skill, and if they meet a player matched in their skill, they will simply up their skill to be better than their opponent.

I"m not trolling, i'm just disagreeing with your 'bible'. If that is offensive i will leave. But i'll have you know that if any more tournaments, whether world wide, televised, professional, whatever were to be set up, i would be able to carry Kirby, Pikachu, or Mario up to the top. That's how true professionals play--They play who they like, not who will win.

 

[gamerguy217]

Please go to a tourney, I would love to see how you place

 

[Planet Mars]

After following your post (XD) you're pretty funny... like you said earlier that might leave.... then please leave (lol) you're not listening to reason and people who have an understanding over the game. You may not know it but you are trolling,,,HARD...... posting false info.. ..and such hey great you made 2nd REGIONALS back when? (early 2008) and the game has changed sorry buddy but from listening to you, you put the -upid in stupid , unless they hire big bird or something your gonna need a smash doctor to help you out. Lol look at vids of ACTUAL PROS that go to OFFLINE TOURNIES and things as such. Not your so-called "pro" friends XD. Even if were to go post your crap into the Brawl Kirby boards they'd burn your *** too. But if you keep posting I don't care you are SOOOO funny. But on my end note go to a tourney and get *****......you must of crawled out of the bat cave.

Yay. I'm funny and i'm trolling. Both things that little kids like to tell me. Funny how that turns out.

You think my only personal skill is fighting my 'pro friends'? The people who suicide off the edge by accident? That isn't competition--that's just for fun.

Competition is when i play people i don't know. When i beat them, I offer helpful advice and tips, and maybe rematch them again with a different character.

I've done many tournaments and i know what's at stake, but you guys don't seem to be understanding why i disagree with this list. So i'll just leave it at that.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

So yea, I find it totally funny that you go "lolol laz0rs 'n cgz, flaco raeps boozer!" and ignore every
argument.

I should stop coming back to this thread, it's ridiculous.

Listen and listen good. I have kept EVERY argument in mind. But no one succeeds in telling me how Bowser counters Falco's camping in TOP LEVEL PLAY. Falco doesn't need to CG either, he has plenty of attacks to use. Besides my previous sentence, how will Bowser approach w/o taking big damage? You can't camp Falco so you NEED to approach. Eventually Falco will approach instead but that's when Bowser is @ +140% where you can kill him w/ any strong move. A good Falco is capable of camping for that long, especially on FD. Chill.

It isnt lol falco ***** bowser. laxorz, CG, dair gg lolbowser. But its definetely easier for falco than bowser. I'd say around 55-45 or 60-40 falco. Oh, and there is just no way that bowser will die to a bair or fsmash at 110% gunmaster lombardi. Lrn2DI.

I kno dat...now...I was assuming w/o DI but the matchup insists King Koopa using DI so I apologize.

^^unless they are trying to lazer->grab, which seems to be GL's view of the matchup.

I hope you are aware that Falco can bait things as well and THEN CG.

the match up is a lot easier for bowser on yoshis, if it was on bf, fd, or smashville it is much harder for the bowser to get in. i hate yoshis as falco

plus the falco didnt look to hot anyways.

My point exactly. Why did it take so long for Falco to DI out of the flame breath?

 

[LanceStern]

...

Except CPUs play horribly. They are predictable and fail to abuse the good attributes of characters....

You play a Lvl 9 Peach, Luigi, Mario, Wolf, Shiek like you would a human opponent and make that statement again.

 

[Flayl]

It's very difficult to match 'equal players'. There are certain things 1 more does over the other that will either win or lose the match. So essentially such matches cannot have a basis of who will win or lose. All characters have an equal chance behind a player of utmost skill, and if they meet a player matched in their skill, they will simply up their skill to be better than their opponent.

I"m not trolling, i'm just disagreeing with your 'bible'. If that is offensive i will leave. But i'll have you know that if any more tournaments, whether world wide, televised, professional, whatever were to be set up, i would be able to carry Kirby, Pikachu, or Mario up to the top. That's how true professionals play--They play who they like, not who will win.

Please link us your achievements in offline, hell online as well, tournaments. To be quite frank, I really doubt you could reach the top of any major tournament.

 

[Conviction]

It's very difficult to match 'equal players'. There are certain things 1 more does over the other that will either win or lose the match. So essentially such matches cannot have a basis of who will win or lose. All characters have an equal chance behind a player of utmost skill, and if they meet a player matched in their skill, they will simply up their skill to be better than their opponent.

I"m not trolling, i'm just disagreeing with your 'bible'. If that is offensive i will leave. But i'll have you know that if any more tournaments, whether world wide, televised, professional, whatever were to be set up, i would be able to carry Kirby, Pikachu, or Mario up to the top. That's how true professionals play--They play who they like, not who will win.

HEY guess what check this batman. Go pick Shiek then put a lvl 9 cpu Fox and keep Ftilting it tell me what happens can the cpu get out??? no. There reasons characters are better than characters batman. Another example get one of your basment living "pro" friends and have them pick shiek you pick Ganondorf, tell them to use the chain, tell me what happens..... lol.
Yes do the smash world a favor and leave unless you're going to actually be helpful. Look I play fox. Do you see me complaining about Pika,Shiek, and ICs. No.... SO LEARN Kirby is not let best Pika is good but not the best. LOL im about to die cause you said mario. Tell me what's good batman lol.

 

[Javon89]

Yay. I'm funny and i'm trolling. Both things that little kids like to tell me. Funny how that turns out.

You think my only personal skill is fighting my 'pro friends'? The people who suicide off the edge by accident? That isn't competition--that's just for fun.

Competition is when i play people i don't know. When i beat them, I offer helpful advice and tips, and maybe rematch them again with a different character.

I've done many tournaments and i know what's at stake, but you guys don't seem to be understanding why i disagree with this list. So i'll just leave it at that.

Well you don't sound like you've gone to a tournament, I think that this list is very accurate for the meta-game back in summer, but you just can't go around and imply Kirby is better than Snake, if that is what you really think, your not just biased, you're an elitist.

 

[Kewkky]

Yay. I'm funny and i'm trolling. Both things that little kids like to tell me. Funny how that turns out.

You think my only personal skill is fighting my 'pro friends'? The people who suicide off the edge by accident? That isn't competition--that's just for fun.

Competition is when i play people i don't know. When i beat them, I offer helpful advice and tips, and maybe rematch them again with a different character.

I've done many tournaments and i know what's at stake, but you guys don't seem to be understanding why i disagree with this list. So i'll just leave it at that.

Mars, where do you live? I know of a couple of tournaments that happen around USA, and unlike everyone else who just wants you to go away, I'd help you, in any way I can, make it there. I think you need to experience firsthand how professional Brawl players play like, and what they can do, before you're persuaded to change your point of view.

So, do you live in USA?

 

[Flayl]

Listen and listen good. I have kept EVERY argument in mind. But no one succeeds in telling me how Bowser counters Falco's camping in TOP LEVEL PLAY. Falco doesn't need to CG either, he has plenty of attacks to use. Besides my previous sentence, how will Bowser approach w/o taking big damage? You can't camp Falco so you NEED to approach. Eventually Falco will approach instead but that's when Bowser is @ +140% where you can kill him w/ any strong move. A good Falco is capable of camping for that long, especially on FD. Chill.

Bowser can approach by klaw hopping or SHAD/perfect shielding + spacing Jab.
Bowsers will ban FD aganst Falco, being camped there is moot.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

It's very difficult to match 'equal players'. There are certain things 1 more does over the other that will either win or lose the match. So essentially such matches cannot have a basis of who will win or lose. All characters have an equal chance behind a player of utmost skill, and if they meet a player matched in their skill, they will simply up their skill to be better than their opponent.

I"m not trolling, i'm just disagreeing with your 'bible'. If that is offensive i will leave. But i'll have you know that if any more tournaments, whether world wide, televised, professional, whatever were to be set up, i would be able to carry Kirby, Pikachu, or Mario up to the top. That's how true professionals play--They play who they like, not who will win.

Ganondorf will never beat ICs.

GET.OUT.

 

[Planet Mars]

HEY guess what check this batman. Go pick Shiek then put a lvl 9 cpu Fox and keep Ftilting it tell me what happens can the cpu get out??? no. There reasons characters are better than characters batman. Another example get one of your basment living "pro" friends and have them pick shiek you pick Ganondorf, tell them to use the chain, tell me what happens..... lol.
Yes do the smash world a favor and leave unless you're going to actually be helpful. Look I play fox. Do you see me complaining about Pika,Shiek, and ICs. No.... SO LEARN Kirby is not let best Pika is good but not the best. LOL im about to die cause you said mario. Tell me what's good batman lol.

^^^ proof that this site is full of immature kids

I'm so disappointed in this place. I came here because i wanted to participate in possible tournaments and offer advice for mastering characters, as well as playing Subspace, Multi-Man Brawl, and characters like Kirby. It's a shame people would call me disagreeing "Trolling". Just really really sad.

So you guys are saying that all the years i've been playing the game have gone to waste, right?

I will link my achievements. I will play the pros. And when i win i hope i get an apology. This is just really really sad

 

[Lawkk]

It's very difficult to match 'equal players'. There are certain things 1 more does over the other that will either win or lose the match. So essentially such matches cannot have a basis of who will win or lose. All characters have an equal chance behind a player of utmost skill, and if they meet a player matched in their skill, they will simply up their skill to be better than their opponent.

I"m not trolling, i'm just disagreeing with your 'bible'. If that is offensive i will leave. But i'll have you know that if any more tournaments, whether world wide, televised, professional, whatever were to be set up, i would be able to carry Kirby, Pikachu, or Mario up to the top. That's how true professionals play--They play who they like, not who will win.

Your argument on players of equal skill is not taken part of a tier list actually. A tier list is a list composed of the characters advantages over other characters in the game and how they do generally in terms of every character or in some cases tourney viable characters.

It is true that all characters have an equal chance with a player of higher skill. Why? It is because the player is outplaying the other player not the fact that the character attributes contribute to making it possible to win.

Also professionals will play who will win. However in the majority of competitive fighting games there is enough of a measure of skill a player has that can allow them to win unlikely match-ups due to the fact that they are outplaying them.

Edit: Also brawl is not a game where skill can overlap character abuse

 

[gamerguy217]

Mainly the people acting like this is only because a troll is near...

 

[Planet Mars]

Mars, where do you live? I know of a couple of tournaments that happen around USA, and unlike everyone else who just wants you to go away, I'd help you, in any way I can, make it there. I think you need to experience firsthand how professional Brawl players play like, and what they can do, before you're persuaded to change your point of view.

So, do you live in USA?

Yes contrary to most people's belief, i do not live on Mars. I am in the US, and i do participate in US tournaments regularly. So i know what i'm talking about. I will tell you all those so-called pros at those tournaments very rarely get an edge over me. Especially with Snake or Meta Knight.

Well you don't sound like you've gone to a tournament, I think that this list is very accurate for the meta-game back in summer, but you just can't go around and imply Kirby is better than Snake, if that is what you really think, your not just biased, you're an elitist.

They way i play Kirby will have you begging to forget everything you know about tiers. You will question all your Brawl knowledge

Ganondorf will never beat ICs.

GET.OUT.

A Ganondorf of higher skill will beat Ice Climbers. Equal skill they will not. But since players are never equal skill, the list is inaccurate

 

[Javon89]

^^^ proof that this site is full of immature kids

I'm so disappointed in this place. I came here because i wanted to participate in possible tournaments and offer advice for mastering characters, as well as playing Subspace, Multi-Man Brawl, and characters like Kirby. It's a shame people would call me disagreeing "Trolling". Just really really sad.

So you guys are saying that all the years i've been playing the game have gone to waste, right?

I will link my achievements. I will play the pros. And when i win i hope i get an apology. This is just really really sad

If you lose? That would make you as stupid as your posts.

Well in general Ganondorf will never beat ICs, us "pros" don't take skill level that much into account on the tier list because there are so many skill levels and so many smashers, instead we look the characters themselves and their viability at tournaments, tools, and placings.

 

[Planet Mars]

If you lose? That would make you as stupid as your posts.

If i lose i will simply hone my skills and become better, and examine what i did wrong and improve on it. The whole world isn't going to die if i lose a match of Brawl. That doesn't make up for all my wins, nor does it make me any less of a player.

I know i sound arrogant. I know i sound like i'm trolling. And i know i do not understand this stuff as well as 'pros' or you people who study this religiously do. That's why i refer to it as 'your bible', because you are following this true to the letter and you are basing every decision on it. I wouldn't be bothered with it, but you guys are saying that i will lose with kirby and i disagree. What do i accomplish by playing Meta Knight? Nothing. What do i accomplish by playing Kirby? Winning with a character i like. To me, that's the true winner--1 who was able to overcome all odds, and stay true to who they liked to play, not playing a character rated high from a competitive list.

So i would like to apologize and say i want to learn about these things. But at the same time, i would appreciate it if you guys helped me out, rather than instantly tell me "i'm wrong" and "i don't know anything" and "Kirby sucks". I don't want to hear any of those, because they are all lies.

 

[Conviction]

^^^ proof that this site is full of immature kids

I'm so disappointed in this place. I came here because i wanted to participate in possible tournaments and offer advice for mastering characters, as well as playing Subspace, Multi-Man Brawl, and characters like Kirby. It's a shame people would call me disagreeing "Trolling". Just really really sad.

So you guys are saying that all the years i've been playing the game have gone to waste, right?

I will link my achievements. I will play the pros. And when i win i hope i get an apology. This is just really really sad

And you're proof a crackbaby has found our forum....if you actually claim what you proclaim to be....you'll still be batman, cause you have no clue what your talking about.

EDIT: so what you're saying is if you outplay some you will win >.> common sense what people are getting from you is you're saying kirby is the the best will only he is high-mid. But good you want to learn. Maybe you're thoughts will change after you learn

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Yes contrary to most people's belief, i do not live on Mars. I am in the US, and i do participate in US tournaments regularly. So i know what i'm talking about. I will tell you all those so-called pros at those tournaments very rarely get an edge over me. Especially with Snake or Meta Knight.




They way i play Kirby will have you begging to forget everything you know about tiers. You will question all your Brawl knowledge



A Ganondorf of higher skill will beat Ice Climbers. Equal skill they will not. But since players are never equal skill, the list is inaccurate

STOP. Ganon has overall poor range and laggy moves compared to ICs. ICs have a 0-death chaingrab on him and he is easy to grab. GG sir.

P.S. Your posts are loltastic and deserve to go above MK on the Tier List. Congrats.

 

[Planet Mars]

If you lose? That would make you as stupid as your posts.

Well in general Ganondorf will never beat ICs, us "pros" don't take skill level that much into account on the tier list because there are so many skill levels and so many smashers, instead we look the characters themselves and their viability at tournaments, tools, and placings.

Ok.. this makes sense. So you look at what each character can do, and compare it to another character in a controlled environment, and match them up thus far? Sounds legitimate. But this doesn't take into account of how a player applies these tools, which is why i find fault in the list. But if it doesn't go that far, then i will leave it alone.

 

[Red Arremer]

Okay, let's assume there's a new character in Brawl. He's called A Button-Man and he cannot move or anything, just use one move where he pokes his hand forward.

You play this A Button-Man the best by pressing the A Button and attacking. Otherwise, he cannot do anything else.

Now tell me. Do you think that A Button-Man has the same potential as any other character in Brawl?

 

[Kewkky]

Mars, you should go to Pound4. It's a tournament happening in January at Maryland, and in person it's easier to explain stuff than through the internet (where lots of people who, when they strongly disagree with you, insult you for the feeling of self-gratification).

Here's the link to the tourney, I hope you can go. You gotta register online though, by using PayPal, and this month is the last month to register.

Okay, let's assume there's a new character in Brawl. He's called A Button-Man and he cannot move or anything, just use one move where he pokes his hand forward.

You play this A Button-Man the best by pressing the A Button and attacking. Otherwise, he cannot do anything else.

Now tell me. Do you think that A Button-Man has the same potential as any other character in Brawl?

I lmao'd at the thought of A Button-man.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Ok.. this makes sense. So you look at what each character can do, and compare it to another character in a controlled environment, and match them up thus far? Sounds legitimate. But this doesn't take into account of how a player applies these tools, which is why i find fault in the list. But if it doesn't go that far, then i will leave it alone.

But but but Ganon's tools are worthless against ICs camping and grab game, no matter who uses Ganon.

 

[Lawkk]

Ok.. this makes sense. So you look at what each character can do, and compare it to another character in a controlled environment, and match them up thus far? Sounds legitimate. But this doesn't take into account of how a player applies these tools, which is why i find fault in the list. But if it doesn't go that far, then i will leave it alone.

The ablility of a player to abuse character attributes is called tournament results.

 

[Planet Mars]

Your argument on players of equal skill is not taken part of a tier list actually. A tier list is a list composed of the characters advantages over other characters in the game and how they do generally in terms of every character or in some cases tourney viable characters.

It is true that all characters have an equal chance with a player of higher skill. Why? It is because the player is outplaying the other player not the fact that the character attributes contribute to making it possible to win.

Also professionals will play who will win. However in the majority of competitive fighting games there is enough of a measure of skill a player has that can allow them to win unlikely match-ups due to the fact that they are outplaying them.

Edit: Also brawl is not a game where skill can overlap character abuse

Thanks for the reply. This makes a lot of sense and i appreciate it.
I agree with this, except for your last point. True skill triumphs. True skill is what can win matches, along with wit.

In a stock tournament i participated in i was down 2 lives in a 5 stock match. I had 2 and my opponent had 4. Was i bad? No. Was my opponent good? Yes. Was i playing bad? Yes. Guess who won that match?

How did i win? My opponent underestimated me and my character's ability. They assumed that any character below 'high tier' would have lost to them. But i stopped attacking, and let them mess up. When they ended up making mistakes, i quickly evened the game from 1 life down to 2 and his damage was 140%.

 

[Javon89]

But looking at your posts and if we took skill into account the tier list might look like this;

1.

-high skill level
37.

- low skill level

 

[gamerguy217]

A smart ganon could try to bait and punish mistakes, getting rid of nana, easier said than done tho -_-

 

[Red Arremer]

I lmao'd at the thought of A Button-man.

I'd totally main him.

 

[Planet Mars]

Mars, you should go to Pound4. It's a tournament happening in January at Maryland, and in person it's easier to explain stuff than through the internet (where lots of people who, when they strongly disagree with you, insult you for the feeling of self-gratification).

Here's the link to the tourney, I hope you can go. You gotta register online though, by using PayPal, and this month is the last month to register.


I lmao'd at the thought of A Button-man.

Interesting. I appreciate your help. I will look into it. Although traveling to maryland is a possibility (i have an aunt that lives there) i'm not sure it's probable at that time. However, if competing in this tournament will prove to people that i know what i'm talking about, i will gladly partake in it. You're one of the few people that actually understand what it means to be a true player, and i appreciate and respect that. Thanks again!

 

[Conviction]

See the point are people are trying to make is (putting it your terms)

Because Shiek vs. Fox is 30:70 Shiek

Skill of said shiek player is 15

Skill of opposing Fox would have to to be 45 because to the tools sheik has against Fox

Actually shiek has on fox that makes it that bad is the Ftilt lock other than that it might be even or Fox's favor I think.

Edit: trying to take the nicer approach instead of burning you.

 

[Red Arremer]

Okay, let's assume there's a new character in Brawl. He's called A Button-Man and he cannot move or anything, just use one move where he pokes his hand forward.

You play this A Button-Man the best by pressing the A Button and attacking. Otherwise, he cannot do anything else.

Now tell me. Do you think that A Button-Man has the same potential as any other character in Brawl?

This was aimed at you, Planet Mars, by the way.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

@ PlanetMars. If you can, try to record your matches. You are obviously an outstanding player and I'd love to see you beat Ally and M2K w/ Kirby cause w/ enough skill you can beat anyone, w/ any character. Good luck.

 

[Javon89]

So...this argument is over?

 

[gamerguy217]

The argument's over for me when I see tourney results

 

[zeldspazz]

Well you folks made my afternoon. I applaud you for actually keeping me interested for 3-4 pages.

 

[Planet Mars]

See the point are people are trying to make is (putting it your terms)

Because Shiek vs. Fox is 30:70 Shiek

Skill of said shiek player is 15

Skill of opposing Fox would have to to be 45 because to the tools sheik has against Fox

Actually shiek has on fox that makes it that bad is the Ftilt lock other than that it might be even or Fox's favor I think.

Edit: trying to take the nicer approach instead of burning you.

thank you. This is exactly what i'm saying. Let's say Meta Knight is 30 and Kirby is 12. Kirby will have to be 18+ above Meta Knight's skill to make up for the Character's abilities compared to another character. From my understanding this is what the tier list implies, and as i've mentioned i do not disagree with that.

But at the same time, what i am disagreeing with is people who are abusing the tier list as a means to shut out any character that isn't on the top, which is what i do not like. I can disagree--i have that right. If i present it in a mature and easy to read manner, than i should only be corrected or rebutted, not ridiculed. I'm not disagreeing that a tier exists or that it doesn't determine anything. What i'm disagreeing with is the people who say any character not in the top tier will lose against a character that is, period.

 

[.Marik]

stuff

I sent you a long PM explaining why Tiers exist, I hope you don't mind.

 

[Planet Mars]

This was aimed at you, Planet Mars, by the way.

Your attempt to exhibit any emotional response from me has resulted in failure. Insults and mockery have no merits with me.

I will record tournaments and my credentials. I will go to matches and beat everyone. And when i come back i'll taunt you with my cute puffiness. However, unlike most of those 'champions', i will be humble and share my strategies at the same time, because that is what makes a true player. Being good at the game doesn't make you a good player