The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[gamerguy217]

Oh...well in that case the list is totally biased, because Kirby can crush Snake any time. Same goes for Pikachu. In fact, Snake is one of the worst characters. I don't see how this list is accurate.

If anything, it seems like a popularity list--i see lots of players with Meta Knight, seeing as he has a fast and easy to use moveset, and he's a nice looking character. However, there are many other characters that are 'good' compared to him. For instance, Pikachu can destroy Meta Knight; same with Lucas. Kirby can beat him as well, so i don't think this list is based on how 'good' a character is over one another. And comparing Bowser to Sonic? Somebody really needs to play the game again. The 2 are nothing alike. If anything, they're opposites

*facepalm*

 

[zeldspazz]

*facepalm*

>_>
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>_>
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I didnt even know you know how to post ^_^

 

[gamerguy217]

>_>
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>_>
<_<

I didnt even know you know how to post ^_^

I know how to post, I just rarely do it out of HOR chat >.<
dangit Spazz, you tricked me into getting another postcount!!!

 

[zeldspazz]

I know how to post, I just rarely do it out of HOR chat >.<

Yeah I know I was just kidding
I was just surprised to see your name outside of teh chat or OTL

You lurker you

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hmm... so i would assume that this list was created by testing CPU characters then? If that's the case then by no means are the characters being played to their full potential in their maxium levels. But your post definitely made sense---i just don't want to see another comment about this tier business when someone is 'judging' a character i play as. It's bogus and shouldn't determine how a character is played.

...

Except CPUs play horribly. They are predictable and fail to abuse the good attributes of characters. Furthermore, the higher level cpus are do things that are not humanly possible (primarily in terms of reaction time), if we are judging in terms of the top of the metagame which is the best play humanly possible, then cpu testing is impossible.


Therefore we consider players whose technical ability is at the top of the metagame, as well as the attributes of a character themselves in relation to other characters.

Oh...well in that case the list is totally biased, because Kirby can crush Snake any time. Same goes for Pikachu. In fact, Snake is one of the worst characters. I don't see how this list is accurate.

That's just wrong.

Snake has an amazing spacing control game, and his moves have extreme range and safety and therefore are very difficult to punish (hit snake in reaction to him failing to hit with them).

Pikachu, barely beats him. Kirby on the other hand, definitely loses. Simply cannot deal with his stage control game and remain safe.

Quite simply, snake beats the vast majority of the cast, and that's why he's so good, even at low levels of play it should be obvious that ftilt and up-tilt just ****.

If anything, it seems like a popularity list--i see lots of players with Meta Knight, seeing as he has a fast and easy to use moveset, and he's a nice looking character. However, there are many other characters that are 'good' compared to him. For instance, Pikachu can destroy Meta Knight; same with Lucas. Kirby can beat him as well,

Can, yes. Will reliably, never. I encourage you to check the match-up threads for those characters at the character specific board for them before saying things like that. Metaknight is by far the safest character in the game, and does not have a single match-up which he loses owing to his range, priority, and lack of ending lag.

so i don't think this list is based on how 'good' a character is over one another. And comparing Bowser to Sonic? Somebody really needs to play the game again. The 2 are nothing alike. If anything, they're opposites

It's quite easy to compare sonic to bowser actually. Just ask, "how many good match-ups does Bowser have and how many good match-ups does sonic have". The character with better match-ups is better.


Also, they aren't as opposite as you might think, both are based around punishing, and Bowser actually is pretty fast in the air.



Honestly, you seem to lack the insight to actually comment on the metagame, so I urg you to get involved with a character board for your character of choice (specifically kirby, since I gather he's your favorite), and as you get more involved in the community and have played games at the competitive level, you will understand why some things are good and some aren't and what they are.

 

[SnackAttack]

Yeah, take it from me Planet Mars, I used to think the exact same way you do now. I used to think Fox was horrible in Melee and that MewTwo was the best.

That's before I went to my first tournument and saw how these characters are played by experienced people, and I realized that the tier list is NOT just a bunch of Baloney.

So, seriously, go to your character boards and read all the things there, you'll understand soon enough.

 

[Red Arremer]

If you're @ the edge of a stage then bair can kill Bowser at 110. It's simple to just get Bowser offstage and hit w/ bair. If they use Fortress early then edgegrab then smash them when onstage. Repeat.

Fsmash actually will kill King Koopa possibly lower than 110%. (If you're @ the edge, which is where you should be to **** Bowser harder in this matchup.

You should stop talking about Bowser if you have absolutely no idea of the character.

Thank you.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Tsk tsk.

For sure, Bowser will never beat a top level Falco. Period. 40:60

Edit: Lemme look up dat match up again, it's worse for Bowser and they know it.

 

[gamerguy217]

Bowser vs Falco, idk =/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peynCokclG8

 

[St. Viers]

^^wait, if bowser will never beat a top level falco, the matchup number would be 0:100. 40:60 means that bowser is at a slight disadvantage...

looks like you don't get matchup number's point, do ya =P

 

[Meru.]

He edited the ratio. It was originally 35:65.

Gotcha.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Bowser vs Falco, idk =/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peynCokclG8

When will people ever pull up good counter arguments. King Koopa spammed Fortress the whole match. Not the best Falco either since you can simply bait Up-B. Didn't you ppl say Bowser had a chaingrab on Falco? I guess lasers and CG are too much for Bowser so it doesn't matter.

^^wait, if bowser will never beat a top level falco, the matchup number would be 0:100. 40:60 means that bowser is at a slight disadvantage...

looks like you don't get matchup number's point, do ya =P

0:100 (for example Ganon vs ICs) means you can't even deal damage on your opponent (if the matchup is played correctly). 40:60 is winnable but Falco shouldn't lose to Bowser consistently (if at all) if he has experience on the matchup.

He edited the ratio. It was originally 35:65.

Gotcha.

YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!

I've played Bowsers and the fact that lasers and CG work on him pretty much says King Koopa is in trouble. You ppl are doing it wrong, as a result, I am unconvinced.

 

[Red Arremer]

Lasers and chaingrab work on pretty much every character, so I suppose that means Falco doesn't lose to anyone in the game.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Lasers and chaingrab work on pretty much every character, so I suppose that means Falco doesn't lose to anyone in the game.

ICs and Kirby wanted to stop by and say hi. Marth ran by to talk to me 'bout his Up-B and dash. MK (even though both work but Falco still loses) sent me a text message of planking in bold letters.

I wanna take on Vex, I'll only be convinced if I fight a really good King Koopa.

 

[Red Arremer]

I hope you're aware that Marth's UpB is worse than Bowser's?

Also, you said that everyone whom Falco has a CG on and is lasered will lose to Falco. So Meta Knight loses to him.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

That was 4 Bowser (duh). I'm talking about Bowser and no one else, so get in the right mindset.
A handful of characters counter Falco since they have attributes (size, combos and CGs mainly) that are difficult to get around. Still winnable matchups but @ top level it won't happen often (again, if at all).

Edit: w/o planking, yes Flaco wins. :/

 

[Red Arremer]

So yea, I find it totally funny that you go "lolol laz0rs 'n cgz, flaco raeps boozer!" and ignore every
argument.

I should stop coming back to this thread, it's ridiculous.

 

[zeldspazz]

I should stop coming back to this thread, it's ridiculous.

I swear you've said that about 15 times ^_^

 

[TLMSheikant]

It isnt lol falco ***** bowser. laxorz, CG, dair gg lolbowser. But its definetely easier for falco than bowser. I'd say around 55-45 or 60-40 falco. Oh, and there is just no way that bowser will die to a bair or fsmash at 110% gunmaster lombardi. Lrn2DI.

 

[St. Viers]

0:100 (for example Ganon vs ICs) means you can't even deal damage on your opponent (if the matchup is played correctly). 40:60 is winnable but Falco shouldn't lose to Bowser consistently (if at all) if he has experience on the matchup.

I've played Bowsers and the fact that lasers and CG work on him pretty much says King Koopa is in trouble. You ppl are doing it wrong, as a result, I am unconvinced.

That's not what they mean. Even though there are different breakdown in ratios, that is not what that means, by anyone's standards but yours. It's easy to say matchup ratios when you define them as you see fit.

Also, you seem to think that the lazers can't ever be baited and punished, powershielded, or anything. You assume that the bowser player will fall for everything falco does, while being unable to do anything. I hope you do actually play a good bowser--it will be educational.

 

[.Marik]

I swear you've said that about 15 times ^_^

Elitist mentalities.

They're difficult to overcome.

 

[Chuee]

Also, you seem to think that the lazers can't ever be baited and punished,

Nobody's gonna punish a lazer because it has almost no lag and Falco's don't usually use lazer up close.

 

[St. Viers]

^^unless they are trying to lazer->grab, which seems to be GL's view of the matchup.

 

[phi1ny3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHs9ACGjnRI&feature=related

Trust me when I say it's not ****. Maybe a disadvantage, but it's not lolCG gg Boozer.

For the record, upB is a very good anti-grab measure if bowser thinks someone is going for it, due to the mere fact that most grabs come out on frame 6, which means they have a significantly smaller window to get one, and it resets space perfectly, like I think the only person who can punish a fortress really well is D3 imo.

looool @ 114 kills bowser. Even with trash DI, Bowser will live beyond that, he's like the 3rd best in knockback resistance in the game, if it weren't for the fact that his recovery is meh, he'd easily get to live for a longer time than even in the 140% range.

Edit: Sorry for the choppiness of the video.

 

[Planet Mars]

...

Except CPUs play horribly. They are predictable and fail to abuse the good attributes of characters. Furthermore, the higher level cpus are do things that are not humanly possible (primarily in terms of reaction time), if we are judging in terms of the top of the metagame which is the best play humanly possible, then cpu testing is impossible.


Therefore we consider players whose technical ability is at the top of the metagame, as well as the attributes of a character themselves in relation to other characters.




That's just wrong.

Snake has an amazing spacing control game, and his moves have extreme range and safety and therefore are very difficult to punish (hit snake in reaction to him failing to hit with them).

Pikachu, barely beats him. Kirby on the other hand, definitely loses. Simply cannot deal with his stage control game and remain safe.

Quite simply, snake beats the vast majority of the cast, and that's why he's so good, even at low levels of play it should be obvious that ftilt and up-tilt just ****.




Can, yes. Will reliably, never. I encourage you to check the match-up threads for those characters at the character specific board for them before saying things like that. Metaknight is by far the safest character in the game, and does not have a single match-up which he loses owing to his range, priority, and lack of ending lag.



It's quite easy to compare sonic to bowser actually. Just ask, "how many good match-ups does Bowser have and how many good match-ups does sonic have". The character with better match-ups is better.


Also, they aren't as opposite as you might think, both are based around punishing, and Bowser actually is pretty fast in the air.



Honestly, you seem to lack the insight to actually comment on the metagame, so I urg you to get involved with a character board for your character of choice (specifically kirby, since I gather he's your favorite), and as you get more involved in the community and have played games at the competitive level, you will understand why some things are good and some aren't and what they are.

I really appreciate your kind reply--you're the most mature member i've encountered so far. I understand these tiers now after doing some research, but i still disagree with it entirely. I wouldn't have disagreed if i was a newer smasher, or if i wasn't mastering Kirby. However, playing as him and mastering him has had me achieve great things. Pit a professional Meta Knight against me and i will win. Some 'pros' may not be able to counter him in every match, but i can, and i have. Pikachu is also much faster, more agile, and at times more strong than Snake, so i don't see how he's there. Pikachu and Kirby can destroy Diddy Kong, so this list isn't accurate in the sense that all characters have a niche they fit into. There are good characters and not so good characters, which is determined by 'safeness' in the hands of a good player, as you said. However, a true player of a particular character can and will be able to beat any competitor. The people who follow this bible don't understand that. So yes, i'm Anti-tier. Yes, i believe each character has an equal chance behind a skilled player. And yes, i believe that this tier list is going to make meta knight, snake, and diddy kong show up in 99% of the tournaments, only to lose.

I hope there's another tournament coming up soon, so i can show those tryhards why this list is biased

 

[Palpi]

the match up is a lot easier for bowser on yoshis, if it was on bf, fd, or smashville it is much harder for the bowser to get in. i hate yoshis as falco

plus the falco didnt look to hot anyways.

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHs9ACGjnRI&feature=related

Trust me when I say it's not ****. Maybe a disadvantage, but it's not lolCG gg Boozer.

For the record, upB is a very good anti-grab measure if bowser thinks someone is going for it, due to the mere fact that most grabs come out on frame 6, which means they have a significantly smaller window to get one, and it resets space perfectly, like I think the only person who can punish a fortress really well is D3 imo.

looool @ 114 kills bowser. Even with trash DI, Bowser will live beyond that, he's like the 3rd best in knockback resistance in the game, if it weren't for the fact that his recovery is meh, he'd easily get to live for a longer time than even in the 140% range.

Edit: Sorry for the choppiness of the video.

Please watch a video before you go posting it as proof of anything.

I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself and find out why that video means absolutely nothing.

 

[gamerguy217]

I really appreciate your kind reply--you're the most mature member i've encountered so far. I understand these tiers now after doing some research, but i still disagree with it entirely. I wouldn't have disagreed if i was a newer smasher, or if i wasn't mastering Kirby. However, playing as him and mastering him has had me achieve great things. Pit a professional Meta Knight against me and i will win. Some 'pros' may not be able to counter him in every match, but i can, and i have. Pikachu is also much faster, more agile, and at times more strong than Snake, so i don't see how he's there. Pikachu and Kirby can destroy Diddy Kong, so this list isn't accurate in the sense that all characters have a niche they fit into. There are good characters and not so good characters, which is determined by 'safeness' in the hands of a good player, as you said. However, a true player of a particular character can and will be able to beat any competitor. The people who follow this bible don't understand that. So yes, i'm Anti-tier. Yes, i believe each character has an equal chance behind a skilled player. And yes, i believe that this tier list is going to make meta knight, snake, and diddy kong show up in 99% of the tournaments, only to lose.

I hope there's another tournament coming up soon, so i can show those tryhards why this list is biased

This list isn't biased at all, your opinions are

 

[phi1ny3]

Please watch a video before you go posting it as proof of anything.

I'll give you a chance to redeem yourself and find out why that video means absolutely nothing.

It's clear he didn't like Mr. Eh's vid.
I was trying to find something that showcased a different bowser, except there's like NONE on YT.
Also, There's like a huge gap between levels of play for Falco, I'm aware the Falco was pretty icky. The problem is that I have like very few resources.
The video did enough of a job to prove certain points wrong that were previously stated:
1. The battle isn't bagged when Falco gets a CG
2. Fortress isn't the only thing to worry about
3. Falco can't kill Bowser until a much higher percent than what has been stated

 

[St. Viers]

Planet Mars--although the fact that you are hyped over your character is excellent, I fear that you'll be disappointed. I too have the curse of falling in love with average characters, and although they still can win, they simply aren't as good as we would like, and have to accept that.

 

[Flayl]

It's clear he didn't like Mr. Eh's vid.
I was trying to find something that showcased a different bowser, except there's like NONE on YT.
Also, There's like a huge gap between levels of play for Falco, I'm aware the Falco was pretty icky. The problem is that I have like very few resources.
The video did enough of a job to prove certain points wrong that were previously stated:
1. The battle isn't bagged when Falco gets a CG
2. Fortress isn't the only thing to worry about
3. Falco can't kill Bowser until a much higher percent than what has been stated

It wasn't just that the Falco was mediocre. He didn't camp. At all. Zilch camping.

 

[Planet Mars]

This list isn't biased at all, your opinions are

Ok, so let's put this into perspective:

Melee--Fox v Mario. Who wins? Fox
now skilled fox v skilled mario. Who wins? Mario.

Don't believe me? Then you really don't understand each character's potential.

I'm not saying he wins everytime, and if both players are equally skilled (which rarely happens and is almost impossible to determine since no 2 players are alike) Fox does have a better chance. If that's what these tiers are, then i can agree with that. But does this mean tiers should decide which character someone plays? No, and that's what's frustrating me. People don't have any sort of reason to tell you that you cannot play a mid or low tier because they will lose. If i want to do a tournament with Pikachu the only thing stopping me is getting good with pikachu. Once i'm good with him, all those 'pro' meta knights wont stand a chance.

So your precious tiers are more like minor guidelines more than anything. If this tier was to govern the way people played Brawl, then every tom nick and harry would be playing Meta Knight, Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy Kong, and Dedede. And Kirby loses to Dedede? That's just sad and totally inaccurate.

 

[Palpi]

planet mars is trolling you guys hard.

 

[gamerguy217]

This thread doesn't tell you who to play in brawl, that's your own choice, this thread just tells you which characters have the most potential through various tests, tourney results, etc.
Fox vs Mario-Fox wins, skilled Fox vs skilled Mario-Mario wins...wtf, thats like the same thing >.>


@Captain Palpi: I know

 

[Planet Mars]

Planet Mars--although the fact that you are hyped over your character is excellent, I fear that you'll be disappointed. I too have the curse of falling in love with average characters, and although they still can win, they simply aren't as good as we would like, and have to accept that.

So i should 'master a top tier character' to be like all the other people who think this thing makes you a good player?

How misguided this community is...
The whole point of having 30+ characters is so you pick your favorite and play them. If you meet someone with 10 skill with a character, you have to be 11. If you meet someone with 20 skill, you have to be 21. You always have to be more skilled than your opponent, because if you're equally skilled, of course the better character will win. Am i making sense?

Good. Bowser VS Meta Knight--very unlikely to win this battle, but if the Bowser is good, Meta Knight will be floating off the stage in an unpleasant manner. If Bowser is less or equal to the skill of Meta Knight, then there's no way Bowser is going to win other than luck.

This is why this Tier list isn't accurate. All it says is "play with this character if you want to win" When your opponent is equal to you. But how will you know if your opponent is equal to you? That's why you strive to be the best with that character. You don't let a guideline determine who or how you play. You become the best with your character, knowing what they can and cannot do. That will be what separates equal players all the time. You're talking to someone who's been in 400+ tournaments, and placed top in each one of them with Mario, Pichu, Pikachu or Kirby

If all my opponents in said tournament are 20 skill and i'm 38, why would i pick the same character they're playing as? I supposed it could be means to humiliate them, but if that was the case i'd pick the 'wtf mr game and watch character'. There's just no competition if you're fighting lower players. And equal players always have the character advantage, simply because that's just how character specific gameplay is. If that's what this tier list is trying to say, then i agree. But no 2 players can be exactly equal, and someone will always have a playstyle that is different than the norm, which will triumph over battle. Plain and Simple.

These tiers are just for tournaments as well--have you played Meta Knight in Subspace? He fails miserably.

 

[gamerguy217]

Did you even read my post >.>
and Subspace doesn't have anything to do with the tier lists

 

[phi1ny3]

It wasn't just that the Falco was mediocre. He didn't camp. At all. Zilch camping.

I didn't need one to tell how to play a good falco, just to disprove those simple things that people were going on about.

And let's face it, Bowser's viability at high levels of play are determined by two kinds of people: those who know the MU, and those who don't.

 

[Flayl]

Tier lists assume both players are equally skilled. That's the whole point, seeing who's the best character at the top of the metagame - at the peak skill level, which characters will guarantee you more wins.

 

[Kewkky]

planet mars is trolling you guys hard.

I also applaud Planet Mars' successful trolling. Bravo!

 

[Planet Mars]

Did you even read my post >.>
and Subspace doesn't have anything to do with the tier lists

I know that. But this tier is having people choose specific characters to play, which are in fact very lousy characters for every other mode other than tournament. But the tier list isn't stress that enough.

When Meta Knight beats Pikachu at an even skill level i'll believe this list.