The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Angel.M <3 C:]

Yey I'm using marth vs you next time you come to ny Ally.

 

[phi1ny3]

Honestly, Funks post is pretty much one of the best of the thread.

Theory smash and discussing are both fine, but they can go too far.

lol Funk.
<Iamhax>

 

[.Marik]

I sense mindgames on Ally's part.

 

[V]

I dont know how to fight Marth, all he does is jump and fair, one mistake and he can read me and gimp me to death!

IDK if that's an issue of you not knowing how the match works though. I've watched your matches with HAZE a lot and I think it's just an even match. You didn't seem to be making many mistakes at all IMO. Everybody who wonders about the Snake vs Marth MU should watch those sets. They're too good.

I definitely think ZSS is better than Kirby, but I don't know enough about Lucario or ROB to say she is or isn't better than those two.

Anybody want to comment on why she is or isn't better than Lucario or ROB?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

IDK if that's an issue of you not knowing how the match works though. I've watched your matches with HAZE a lot and I think it's just an even match. You didn't seem to be making many mistakes at all IMO. Everybody who wonders about the Snake vs Marth MU should watch those sets. They're too good.

I definitely think ZSS is better than Kirby, but I don't know enough about Lucario or ROB to say she is or isn't better than those two.

Anybody want to comment on why she is or isn't better than Lucario or ROB?

So he tells you he struggles in the match up yet you refuse to believe him? That's brilliant.

 

[V]

So he tells you he struggles in the match up yet you refuse to believe him? That's brilliant.

It really doesn't look like he struggles with it though.

 

[Shaya]

Snake can't punish rising well spaced fairs on shield.
Snakes mobility is too little (in terms of air and ground) to stop Marth from landing properly after said fair on shield.
TBH I full hop rising fair on Snake a lot, what can they do? Try to oh no they cant hit my feet, I'm above them yet using my mobility I can retreat away, now because they don't have move that easily covers them from two sides (like an mk dsmash) and Marth has good mobility, I just land and if they do anything I start a juggle trap.
LOL MARTH.

Its why I dont like BF against Snake either, silly platforms getting in my way. Smashville all day.

(Various levels of exaggeration maybe perhaps some sarcasm)

 

[Nefarious B]

I definitely think ZSS is better than Kirby, but I don't know enough about Lucario or ROB to say she is or isn't better than those two.

Anybody want to comment on why she is or isn't better than Lucario or ROB?

I'm not gonna go just throwing out random qualities about characters doesn't really compare them well at all. Really all you can do is look at matchups to compare.

I'll do ROB since he's easier:
ROB is very solid matchup wise. He has -around- even matchups with many of the characters that matter (Wario, Diddy, Marth, DDD, Snake, Falco). Then you get to the tip top, and the wtfrape that is MK rears it's ugly head. From what I understand most ROBs consider this 35-65 disadvantage for them, some going for just 40-60 and others for full on hard counter at 30-70. While not as significant because of popularity, ROB also has a counter matchup in ZSS.

SO essentially what it comes down to is ROB should never be beating a good player on one of those characters, and unfortunately since MK is so relatively easy to pickup and play this makes him easier than most characters to CP despite his others great matchups.

Now I played ROB before I mained ZSS so I feel like I understand him atleast decently, I can't really say the same about Lucario, but from what I understand:

Another solid character, which great matchups for the most part. Has a tough but winnable matchup against MK. However, has trouble against Snake and DDD, two relatively common characters. I'm not going to throw out matchup ratios willy nilly because to be honest I don't really know how they are, but it's accepted that these matchups are very difficult for Lucario. From what I've seen he doesn't have any hard counters, but having 3 of the most common tourney characters (2 of which are pretty easy to CP) as tough matchups seems just as bad of a disadvantage when we're talking about playing a tourney.

ZSS is my main so while I'll try to be subjective obviously people are biased and I don't claim to be some great player who knows everything:

As someone above me said ZS is a character who goes even with the majority of the cast. Like the other two, she has solid matchups for the most part with the high and top tier. Falco is her worst matchup, probably 35-65, though some say better or worse. Aside from falco, she is somewhere in between 40-60 and 45-55 with Diddy, MK, and possibly a few others depending on your opinions. After that her matchups all fall in the even to advantaged categories.
-----------------------------

So if we accept that what I have written up there is correct (I admit it might not be totally), I think most people would agree that matchup wise ZSS is better than the other two, because she her only terrible matchup is much less common than MK, DDD, or Snake. They all do well against most of the cast, so it really comes down to how often you will have to fight your bad matchups.


Just as a side not I feel like GaW could be thrown into this category of characters as well as I feel he's around the same level, with disadvantages against MK, Snake. Marth, and Diddy (?). IMO, they would work into the tier list like this:

MK
Snake
Diddy
Wario
Falco
ICs
Marth
DDD
Pika
Oli
ZSS
Lucario
ROB
GaW

 

[JagaTranvo]

yippy yay go Sheik +1 for you!

 

[Browny]

please... im dying here

every time someone brings up COMPLETELY ARBITRARY matchup ratios as any sort of reason why a character should be higher or lower, your argument becomes meaningless. it may be too much to ask but can people please try to stick to the characters they know? anyone can say 'well [character] board says they go even with all high tiers and have a few advantages' but thats worth nothing :/ present your own opinions to this thread... makes for far more interesting reading than telling us what other character mains tell themselves >_<

 

[Megavitamins]

I think I read somebody say earlier back that Marth beats DK and Rob, which is not true at all.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think I read somebody say earlier back that Marth beats DK and Rob, which is not true at all.

Imo, ROB is 60-40 ROB, relatively even on-stage, (we're outranged, but much safer), except for the Gyro which tips things.


But off-stage, his stupid fair gimps us so much better then we gimp him, though his up-b is vulnerable.


DK, mixed feelings on this one, I'm not sure if getting trounced by will relatively often messes with my perception.

 

[smashkng]

Snake can't punish rising well spaced fairs on shield.
Snakes mobility is too little (in terms of air and ground) to stop Marth from landing properly after said fair on shield.
TBH I full hop rising fair on Snake a lot, what can they do? Try to oh no they cant hit my feet, I'm above them yet using my mobility I can retreat away, now because they don't have move that easily covers them from two sides (like an mk dsmash) and Marth has good mobility, I just land and if they do anything I start a juggle trap.
LOL MARTH.

Its why I dont like BF against Snake either, silly platforms getting in my way. Smashville all day.

(Various levels of exaggeration maybe perhaps some sarcasm)

You forgot that he can stil punish that fair if he spot dodges. I've done that a lot of times.

 

[PhantomX]

Ganon is top tier.... when there are three of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbWG1KWrjHs&feature=sub

Discuss.

 

[Commander_Beef]

They're also top tier when team-attack is not on.

 

[PhantomX]

Hrm, very interesting point you bring up, Commander_Beef. Perhaps this is a new AT for him.

 

[teluoborg]

Should we conclude that Ganon is 1/3rd of top tier ?

 

[Nefarious B]

please... im dying here

every time someone brings up COMPLETELY ARBITRARY matchup ratios as any sort of reason why a character should be higher or lower, your argument becomes meaningless. it may be too much to ask but can people please try to stick to the characters they know? anyone can say 'well [character] board says they go even with all high tiers and have a few advantages' but thats worth nothing :/ present your own opinions to this thread... makes for far more interesting reading than telling us what other character mains tell themselves >_<

I'm assuming this was directed at me, and this is exactly why I wrote a disclaimer saying that I don't actually know enough about Lucario to say anything other than go with what I've heard Lucarios say.

Are you going to argue that I'm wrong? Give me something solid to argue against instead of nitpicking my post and you'll get something solid back.

 

[Browny]

no your point against lucario was fine, you didnt use any numbers so its all good, everything you say is open to interpretation so its not like you assumed it was fact. you stated you used rob too so thats fair. however the ZS paragraph appears to be entirely written using their MU thread as the only evidence since you dont exactly state that you use either of them and numbers are the only thing you presented :/

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Snake can't punish rising well spaced fairs on shield.
Snakes mobility is too little (in terms of air and ground) to stop Marth from landing properly after said fair on shield.
TBH I full hop rising fair on Snake a lot, what can they do? Try to oh no they cant hit my feet, I'm above them yet using my mobility I can retreat away, now because they don't have move that easily covers them from two sides (like an mk dsmash) and Marth has good mobility, I just land and if they do anything I start a juggle trap.
LOL MARTH.

Crazy theory crafting right now. Play Snake against marth BACKWARDS. This changes a few things. One, Grenades are now facing much closer to Marth. Even if he spaces well, he would still get hit by grenades I believe.

Two, this gives Snake access to Bair OoS. I think Bair OoS when playing Marth backwards can punish Fair usage. Problems with it, Dtilt :/ They wouldn't hit grenades being held.

I'm going to try this next time and see if it changes much.

 

[Nic64]

I think I read somebody say earlier back that Marth beats DK and Rob, which is not true at all.

Why doesn't Marth beat DK? I don't see anything aside from "he lives longer and has insanely powerful(easily avoided) attacks". He's a very predictable and limited character, Marth loves that ****

 

[smashkng]

Why doesn't Marth beat DK? I don't see anything aside from "he lives longer and has insanely powerful(easily avoided) attacks". He's a very predictable and limited character, Marth loves that ****

You are underestimating DK. He has range, and Marth doens't like characters with better range than him (aside Ike). DK has his bair, down b and easily gimps Marth. DK has very good mobility, (has better air speed than Marth). DK has quick KO moves like dsmash, bthrow, bair and uair. And DK's fsmash and Punch can be hitted when getting the chance. And never miss up b, because you'll be punished extremely hard.

DK kills so much earlier than Marth. Marth overall deals more damage but DK kills much earlier.

 

[Nefarious B]

no your point against lucario was fine, you didnt use any numbers so its all good, everything you say is open to interpretation so its not like you assumed it was fact. you stated you used rob too so thats fair. however the ZS paragraph appears to be entirely written using their MU thread as the only evidence since you dont exactly state that you use either of them and numbers are the only thing you presented :/

Oh hahah well those are my matchup numbers, I main ZSS. I used to main ROB before switching, hence those are two of the characters I know most about. There's some disagreement on our board but from my own experience as well as what I've heard from talking to other mains (we have a pretty solid community) those should be generally correct.

Is there an actual matchup you disagree on? I'll debate it, but in general most of our matchups are agreed on by both boards and the top players that I've talked to, which is why I feel comfortable throwing out matchup numbers for her

 

[mikeHAZE]

Tell these new borns of smash this once again.



Is that right?

I heard Edreese beat him. I would assume they think it is even cause of this. And the fact that Edreese thinks it is even.

he beat me in 1931, the last few tournaments he played at/when he was still playing ,i won, though in total we probably went even.

 

[phi1ny3]

That was before Mike became really, really good lol.
I remember seeing those videos.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Is that right? Well then idk why WC Peaches think it is even. But really don't care anymore.

 

[Meru.]

New character.

Has Bowser got any attention?

 

[Kofu]

Well Vex is no longer maining him... for Pit. x_x

But he is keeping him as a secondary for Game & Watch, Marth, Falco, and DDD.

I personally think he's in limbo between Mid and Low tier.

 

[Tidal]

What does Bowser not have that other characters do, that keeps him from Mid tier? Seeing Vex play makes me wonder what more he can do.

 

[phi1ny3]

Well a smaller hurtbox for one, imo that's one of his biggest problems (it's the reason D3 and ICs can do that nasty stuff).

 

[Kofu]

He's easily juggled, his recovery is mediocre (especiially vertically, invincibility frames help though), he lacks a projectile (Firebreath is a disjointed hitbox darn it), his hitboxes really don't have much disjointedness (for the most part), and he's not especially fast (but he's not slow either).

 

[mountain_tiger]

At his core, Bowser suffers from similar problems in high-level play as Zelda does. He doesn't have many fast attacks (they often either have a lot of start-up and/or ending lag), his approaches are lacking, he has a great defensive game (with solid ooS options), but he can't use it because he has no reliable way to force approaches, his recovery is predictable and they both have poor top/high tier matchups.

 

[Kinzer]

What does Bowser not have that other characters do, that keeps him from Mid tier? Seeing Vex play makes me wonder what more he can do.

Representation.

 

[Liquid Gen]

Representation.

I'm trying, mang.


Also, his top tier matchups aren't that bad. Worst is Meta Knight (isnt that obvious).

Dedede is definitely doable.

Snake is evenish.

Falco is evenish.

Marth is evenish.

GaW isn't bad either, I'd say dead even.

Diddy, imo, is somewhere around 55/45 Diddy, but that'll differ according to different Bowsers.

Ice Climbers are horrible but I think we all know that.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hmm are Snake and Falco really even? Thats weird @_@

I figured at least Falco would be harder *shrugs*

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Hmm are Snake and Falco really even? Thats weird @_@

I figured at least Falco would be harder *shrugs*

Falco ***** Bowser.

King Koopa is a fatty so he suffers from lasers hard. That plus the chaingrab. If Falco spikes and Bowser doesn't SDI right then you can get a 0-death w/ a footstool. 70:30

 

[Kewkky]

I find Bowser going even with Snake and Falco... Iffy. I dunno, the idea of someone with no safe approaches nor way to force approaches, against characters with hardcore camping options, fast attacks, disjoints and chaingrab/high survival rate (Falco/Snake respectively) going even, sounds farfetched to me.

 

[Kofu]

Bowser can chaingrab Falco right back and he has the moves to punish the bird well.

He doesn't suffer from lazers more than anybody else really.

 

[phi1ny3]

I can see the issues of both chars.
I'd think klaw hopping is far more usable v. Snake, but Snake also has really abusable edgeguading/dthrow stuff in particular, besides being snake XP
As for Falco, You guys have a holiday on him with grab release stuff iirc, but your approach is pretty terribad against him. He also has issues killing you, but could gimp you pretty bad.
Am I incorrect in these assumptions?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I can see the issues of both chars.
I'd think klaw hopping is far more usable v. Snake, but Snake also has really abusable edgeguading/dthrow stuff in particular, besides being snake XP
As for Falco, You guys have a holiday on him with grab release stuff iirc, but your approach is pretty terribad against him. He also has issues killing you, but could gimp you pretty bad.
Am I incorrect in these assumptions?

If Bowser can grab Falco then it's more winnable. Good luck grabbin' him w/o already takin' 40% or so damage.