The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Prawn]

just so you guys know where ICs are coming from a lot of the top ICs don't believe snake to be an end-all be-all match, I myself don't know if on a top level it's winnable but thats because I haven't played there really. Yeah but anyways I think our boards might even put it at 60-40(if we did a ratio of the mood at this particular moment).

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

ok fine, he super hard counters 6 characters (DK, mario, luigi, samus, wolf, bowser)

all are 75-25 or worse most likely

If you do not realize this, just saying for Luigi, the infinite is now virtually banned within the community. This matchup is actually completely fine without it. For the other characters, why yes. D3 and Bowser can't avoid grabs and Wolf has such a predictable/horrible recovery and Mario and Samus simply can't kill D3. All of these characters are lowered due to D3's chain grab but Luigi avoids the chain grab outside the infinite.

Besides, none of these characters outside of DK, Luigi, and Wolf actually have slight viability in tournaments outside of if there is Boss or someone similarly strong playing. There are other top tier/high tier characters that counter these characters heavily as well. It's not like D3 is the only one.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah....I know you dont

But still this is just facts, not opinions. Tell me how Zelda can outclass DDD to score the advantage.

And I dont really get the sheild and sheild dashing part X.X DDD can just grab you OoS with hax grab range.

Because that's the only way d3 can approach. he'll either walk to shield or dash to shield.

MH has beaten ally in two sets already.

I don't think that makes a change in the match up. Even though it's ally he seems to be troubled by Marth. I saw Ally vs pierced at VC. He seemed to generally struggle against him. If one player being able to beat a top player is enough to change a match up ratio then Ness MK should be even on the strength of what fogo did against tyrant.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Those 6 characters are?

Dedede only "negates" the viability of potential 1-2 characters. Name characters he "nullifies" that otherwise would have promising competitive prospects.

You can't take away a character's viability if he doesn't have it to begin with.

THIS. This this this this this this this. THIS. FREAKING THIS.

 

[Flayl]

At the top of the metagame the infinite is useless, becaise Luigi's already in kill percents when it becomes an infinite.

4 Down throws + 1 Back throw is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All I can say is if these MUs that the Marth Boards are pumping out are correct, then I better see Marth in the top 5. Other than that MK matchup, which is winnable, Marth is completely safe in every matchup, and even goes advantages with most of the high/top tiers.

Marth's match ups are overrated.

Marth is 50-50 with Snake.
55:45 Snake with port priority.

Marth is heavily inflicted by "LOL METAKNIGHT".

He handles many low tier characters better than Snake because Marth actually has **** approaching options on lower tiers.
Whilst Snake doesn't really have any.

PT does NOT EVEN GO CLOSE TO EVEN WITH SNAKE.
THAT IS HORRIBLY RIDICULOUS.

Ike... hell no.

Mario and Yoshi... umm... doubtful. Like both Mario and Yoshi have some things going for them in the match up... but I think its a stretch to call it even.

I think you have a Marth bias TBH.

 

[V]

Marth's match ups are overrated.

How are his MU's overrated? Which ones to be exact and what do YOU think the ratio should be? I'm just curious.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How are his MU's overrated? Which ones to be exact and what do YOU think the ratio should be? I'm just curious.

They're tilted too much in his favor. Some of them I agree with like wolf. However others like DK and ROB for example. There's no way he goes even with either character. He loses to both of them. Falco is also an even match up. Bowser and peach should be closer to even. Pretty much every match up are slanted in marth's favor way too much by about a good 5 or 10 points.

 

[phi1ny3]

lol @ 65:35 Snake's favor. You're talking about getting one of the best characters to edgeguard and juggle with, and one that can arguably zone just as well and in some instances better than MK (a little bias coming from this, but who cares).
I have yet to see a reason whether through videos of right playing method or tourney or theory to see how this is a soft-counter.
Look at the MU carefully, and tell me that Marth is on a neutral position unable to answer most of snake's options.
Offstage might be an exception, but then again we also covered that Marth can do just as nasty stuff to snake offstage in return.

@Almost: Those are old numbers for most of them, except I'm certain that Peach/Bowser for sure are not "near even".

 

[DMG]

Peach vs Marth IMO is definitely not even. I don't think Marth mauls Peach, but honestly whenever I play that matchup I feel that Marth has the easier time accomplishing stuff in the matchup. Whether it be because he has better tools to do so, or simply that Peach has equal tools but has to work a lot harder to implement them successfully. It just seems easier for Marth to Zone Peach, put some shield pressure on her, Upb her aerials on shield contact, juggle trap her, recover, etc than it is for Peach to bait and punish, pressure/camp with turnips, kill, recover, etc.

I think it's at least 55:45 Marth. 6/4 sounds reasonable too, past that it sounds a bit ridiculous.

 

[Nic64]

They're tilted too much in his favor. Some of them I agree with like wolf. However others like DK and ROB for example.

Marth beats DK IMO, Marth's juggle game vs DK's landing options is a horrible mismatch and basically everything DK does is telegraphed and unsafe.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Marth has less range than before. And he cant combo like he did in melee. Or chain grab for lil gimp kills. His combos you can just air dodge. What weakness thoses Marth have in this fight. For one thing, his recovery got nerfed. And he is not that hard to edgeguard nether. But thats not his weakness.

Turnips are the way to go when not near him. He can swat them all he wants, he is ether gonna get hit or get caught with a follow up if the player is smart.

Peach has to space herself just as much as Marth. Cause He have a sword. Also, Marth cant fight under him. Thats another weakness he has. Now, how to abuse it? Simple. Dont play the average Peach. Play smart. Don't Dsmash every time you side step of flinch. Dont roll back and fourth to everything Marth does cause your scared to get Fsmashed or grabbed. Marths will wait for your reaction, then when you roll, sidestep or Dsmash, we will retaliate with a grab of Fsmash.

Marth now love his F-B so they will use that alot. And for spacing. Some marth may F-B you then stop in the middle of it. Wait for you to roll or side step then retaliate. They can also do F-B then in the middle just Jab you or Dtilt you, then start it up again or wait for you to do something then react to what you do and you get punished. Or he can just finish the combo and Down B you for the last F-B hit and stab your shield. Really good for spacing if Marth is too close and fears of getting grabbed or attack out of the shield.

If Marth is too close. Peach Can actually Grab Marth in between the F-B combo with good time at the start of it. or roll behind him and punish Marth if quick enough with a Grab, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. You can also grab Marth in between his Jabs.

If you did not jump and he catches you with F-B combos, you can float in the middle of it and get behind him and bair him. I do it all the time.

Use your turnips wisley. Dont just throw it once you get it then go in with a FC-Fair. such a common Peach move that people will know what to do. and when you hit thier shield, the Peach may Jab after. Play it smart. bluff the Marth. Mindgames. Think ahead. Turnip pillar him (if you know what that is) Or jump and Z drop the turnip and grab him. Mix up how you go at Marth.

And Watch out for his Fair. it it hits your shield and he spaced it, he can do w/e he wants soon after. Cause that Move has no lag. And his Up air as well. so Be careful when over him. Timed Down airs can stop his up airs. And a Good air game can do damage to Marth. Her Dair is good at shield pressure, eating and stabbing the shield. You can even fast fall through the shield with her Dair and you can get a hit of and stab the shield better depending on the size of the shield and the timing on how you fast fall the Dair.

Marth is really Good at spacing. so you gotta learn how to get past that. Turnips is one way, and well timed attacks when he does his. Peachs Back air comes out fast and has range. Not to mention it got buffed and hits 2 times. So that is a bonus. Its a really good move for spacing. And can beat his attacks if you time it right. Her Fair as well.

Know what attacks you can do out the shield when he hits yours. if spaced, best thing you can do is maybe Fsmash out the shield. and even if you miss, you space yourself, so you have time to retreat before Marth gets you. FC>Nairs out the shield work wonders if he is close enough.it all depends on his spacing and if he is behind you or in front. Rolling is good but you can be punished for that cause the Marth may catch on............or fact is, you have no choice but to roll. Though you can try to dash attack out of the shield. Since it has priority and hits twice. Decent range too.

Marth can be a sitting duck when recovering. aim well with turnips. or time Back airs or Fairs off the stage to hit him It works and when it hits, thats it, Marth is done. You can run to the edge, Jump and throw a turnip the other way. so now you face the stage. then back air him. and Peach can come back to the stage no problem cause you still have your second jump to float then up-B back to safety.

And their combat speed is nearly the same. Peach got faster so you can take advantage of her speed with quick thinking.

Learn what Marth looks for in this match up. common habits Peach players have Marths will look for it and try to punish.

- dont roll alot.

- Don't always Turnip to FC>Fair.

- Dont Dsmash everytime you flinch or get scared.

- dont dash attack alot. get some grabs in there, cant stress that enough. Then Mix and Match your grabs with Dash attacks. and vice versa.

- Think ahead. Be aware of what Marth is abusing that you do. think clearly when your close to him. Dont spam the same stuff over and over.

Peach can attack him from distance with turnips. She does not have to get close to deal Damage to Marth. While Marth has to get close. Marth has More Range that Peach Up close....a sword. So it be stupid to rush and and such with poor spacing. Thats why I keep my distance and space against him. Same with Roy In Melee. I dont rush him. he has a sword so I cant just rush in at him. Even tough Peach destroys roy. So watching out for his sword and looking for his reaction game does not mean he controls the match 24/7

Well for defense, She can attack out the shield with her turnips. And use the Glide toss to get near as well. Also she has the turnip pillar that can be used defensive. Her floating out the shield for a quick attack or retreat while attacking as also another way of defense. And may not mean much but.....toad if you know Marth while come at you with Fairs or F-B.

Her Dair is good for pressure and can lead to lots of things.

Also Peach is one of the characters that can edgeguard him well and even gimp him with one.

Marth is a character you dont wanna rush at all. Best to bait him and abuse his mistakes. You rush a good Marth you are gonna pay clearly. I dont recommend being aggressive against Marth. leaning to the defensive side is the way to go.

Peach can do well against Marth upclose. With her jabs and Dsmash, Marth does the most damage when he is spacing. That's one of his main games. Also, Marth has a hard time when characters are under him. He can't fight very well when over people. So take advantage of that.


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Peach can only Play Marth one way to get at him and have a shot at winning, and that is defensive. If Peach players aggressive against Marth, she loses. Marth on the other had has 2 ways to play her. Agressive or defensive. Marth Can rush her down to keep her from getting turnips. Thus makes it harder to win cause you need them to get a Marth. NinjaLink Won't let me run away and camp him. Cause he knows this is a good way to get at Marth. So he keeps that pressure on me so if I was to try and camp him I get abused for it.

And as For Neo, he is the other way around. He will just create this annoying wall to while zoning in and out. So even if I was to get my turnips and have all the space I need. it does not mean **** to what Neo does. He can zone in and out to bait or leave an opening.

2 styles against my one style that I have to beat marth. Gimps are not reliable cause if it was that easy, peach would be gimping Marths all the time and I would never have to hear about how bad this match up is or all this Marth can do. They would just gimp him for easy kills and call it a day.

Peach also needs GOOD evasion to get at Marth. As well as a good grab gamr. And Try to get Marth over her as much as possible. Cause Marth is not good when one is under him.

His Nair has range and hard to break through. He has a 4 frame Fair that he can lauch 2 of then in a short hop within a second. So he can just swat turnips with one fair and then go at you with the second. So if Peach was to jump and try to Turnip toss in the air to an attack, Marth can just do this and shut her down.

He can also space his quick moves with range just as Fair and Nair to keep the pressure on you and make it hard to break through. really if you are in a corner.And you don't have a move in front of you that is quick and has range to break through that.

Bair air is a better choice to get at Marth and deal with his fair. When Marth is spacing and zoning in or even comes at you, Bair is better to stop all that nonsense.

( Fair) 15-4= 11 Frame advantage Marth has
(Bair) 6-4= 2 frame advantage Marth has

When Peach is in the air it becomes a Pain to get down. He has many ways to bluff an air dodge and then punish.

- Jump to you and not do anything, you air dodge, he attacks
- Falls under you and uairs while touching the floor or platform so you air dodge and he auto cancels it to an uptilt
- Nair or Fair, you air dodge or sit there trying to attack while you return and he uses his double jump to attack you.

There is more too but I am sure these Marth players know this. Marth also have a quick and better platforem game than Peach does. And he can use this to abuse Peach when he has to return and her crappy air dodge.

Dancing balde can also pressure her well and screw up alot of her ****. Half dancing blades then the Marth waits for a scared or bluff reaction from you and then he can get you with a mix up pressure tactic. or just mix up a half dancing blade>w/e he wants.

His Up-B can also Be a ***** out of the shield and stop nearly everything you through at him. So Marth can just zone in to scare you or w/e, you go in for the assult and he goes on the defense and just Up-B all that you do. (THIS IS WHY I SAY AND I CAN'T STRESS THAT ENOUGH, YOU PLAY AGGRESSIVE AGAINST MARTH, AND YOU AND JUST ABOUT GIVING UP THE FIGHT)

For Peach to Beat Marth you need a hella lot of patients and GOOD evasion. Also your spacing needs to be up there. Good spacing is not good enough. Great Spacing is what you need. Peach also has an annoying wall. That is hard to break through. But Marths is just better. And a tricky grab game is even. When I say tricky, i don't mean jab to grab or stuff like that. You actually need to have good reaction time and set up random grabs. Knew when you can go out and grab him. You can ask NinjaLink or Minty how I do it against them, or anyone who has seen me play.

This fight is not even. This goes to Marth. If I was to go and beat all the top Marths over and over, I still would not sit here and say Peach goes even with Marth or counters him. She does not. Reason I got those wins cause I am thinking and not stupid in the match up. I knew how to get at Marth. But because of that, the logic of the match up does not change. Marth Beats Peach.

Just broke it down for both Peach and Marth players, as well as people that dont even use these 2 can see how this match up is.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol @ 65:35 Snake's favor. You're talking about getting one of the best characters to edgeguard and juggle with, and one that can arguably zone just as well and in some instances better than MK (a little bias coming from this, but who cares).
I have yet to see a reason whether through videos of right playing method or tourney or theory to see how this is a soft-counter.
Look at the MU carefully, and tell me that Marth is on a neutral position unable to answer most of snake's options.
Offstage might be an exception, but then again we also covered that Marth can do just as nasty stuff to snake offstage in return.

@Almost: Those are old numbers for most of them, except I'm certain that Peach/Bowser for sure are not "near even".

Marth has to space perfectly everything against snake to even come remotely close to him in this match up. Otherwise eat ftilt or utilt out of shield. Dtilt on shield isn't safe because of ftilt. Utilt makes approaching from the air very troublesome. Cooked nades and nade countering are also effective although if the marth spaces perfectly he wont explode the nades. But let's be realistic here. There's to much has to do perfectly in order to just avoid get punished/ killed. Outside of early percentages auto canceled uairs marth's juggle game is dependent on bait air dodges and punishing them. Last I checked baiting didn't have anything to do with a match up.

Peach vs Marth IMO is definitely not even. I don't think Marth mauls Peach, but honestly whenever I play that matchup I feel that Marth has the easier time accomplishing stuff in the matchup. Whether it be because he has better tools to do so, or simply that Peach has equal tools but has to work a lot harder to implement them successfully. It just seems easier for Marth to Zone Peach, put some shield pressure on her, Upb her aerials on shield contact, juggle trap her, recover, etc than it is for Peach to bait and punish, pressure/camp with turnips, kill, recover, etc.

I think it's at least 55:45 Marth. 6/4 sounds reasonable too, past that it sounds a bit ridiculous.

I think 6-4 is too much. Slight advantage if any at all honestly. I'm not really sure how good Marth's tool all for the match up his fair is good and he does out range her but that doesn't auto mean it's 6-4. He has fair and dtilt. I'm not really sure what shield pressure marth is putting on against anyone. Perfectly spaced dtilt maybe? Peach has a lot of options OoS also. Her dair puts more pressure on shields than anything marth has. She edge guards him extremely well. also.

 

[The Truth...]

Lol wth? Snake doesnt beat marth and even if he did it would never be 65:35. Whoever posted that should really leave this thread. What kind of stupidity lead him to make an assumption like that? He must Suck as a marth.

Marth Beats Snake 55:45 and snake is one of my mains. Actually in my opinion It's 50/50. But all snakes and NEO (best marth) agree Marth beats Snake. Go to Snake boards and Susa has given a detailed explanation. It really makes sense after reading it and seeing as how mikehaze did everything Susa said to Ally.

 

[V]

They're tilted too much in his favor. Some of them I agree with like wolf. However others like DK and ROB for example. There's no way he goes even with either character. He loses to both of them. Falco is also an even match up. Bowser and peach should be closer to even. Pretty much every match up are slanted in marth's favor way too much by about a good 5 or 10 points.

Falco is not even. It's easy to get around his camping and once your inside Falco can't do crap to keep Marth out. I think 60-40 is correct. Bowser and Peach are definitely not closer to even. All Bowser has in that MU to seriously damage Marth are his up angled ftilt and grab releases to rack up damage. If Marth plays a safe offense staying just outside the grab range than Bowser doesn't have anything on him. Besides we gimp him to hell and back. Peach isn't even either. We can camp her because turnips aren't a good enough projectile to force us to approach. Dark Peach has even said the purpose for turnips are to mindgame, not to camp with. Marth's jab and ftilt take care of a lot of her approaching moves and once we back her into a corner, similar to Falco, she doesn't have a whole lot to stop Marth's pressure game.

I think at worst ROB and DK are 55-45 their favor but Marth still has good tools to deal with them, it's just they have good tools to fight back with.

The Marth boards should go back and change the MU ratios. Snake is 55-45 his favor, not 60-40 anymore.

 

[C.box]

Marth has to space perfectly everything against snake to even come remotely close to him in this match up. Otherwise eat ftilt or utilt out of shield. Dtilt on shield isn't safe because of ftilt. Utilt makes approaching from the air very troublesome. Cooked nades and nade countering are also effective although if the marth spaces perfectly he wont explode the nades. But let's be realistic here. There's to much has to do perfectly in order to just avoid get punished/ killed. Outside of early percentages auto canceled uairs marth's juggle game is dependent on bait air dodges and punishing them. Last I checked baiting didn't have anything to do with a match up.

1. Dtilt is safe on anyones shield, you can't punish a character that has ****ing frame advantage on you.

2. Bair and fair can be used as frame traps against air dodges... It isn't just waiting for an airdodge then uairing, you can FORCE them to airdodge or get hit. Either way they get hit though.

 

[Suspect]

New tier list soon?

 

[Albert.]

I don't think that makes a change in the match up. Even though it's ally he seems to be troubled by Marth. I saw Ally vs pierced at VC. He seemed to generally struggle against him. If one player being able to beat a top player is enough to change a match up ratio then Ness MK should be even on the strength of what fogo did against tyrant.

Marth's match ups are overrated.



I think you have a Marth bias TBH.

Marth has to space perfectly everything against snake to even come remotely close to him in this match up. Otherwise eat ftilt or utilt out of shield. Dtilt on shield isn't safe because of ftilt. Utilt makes approaching from the air very troublesome. Cooked nades and nade countering are also effective although if the marth spaces perfectly he wont explode the nades. But let's be realistic here. There's to much has to do perfectly in order to just avoid get punished/ killed. Outside of early percentages auto canceled uairs marth's juggle game is dependent on bait air dodges and punishing them. Last I checked baiting didn't have anything to do with a match up.



I think 6-4 is too much. Slight advantage if any at all honestly. I'm not really sure how good Marth's tool all for the match up his fair is good and he does out range her but that doesn't auto mean it's 6-4. He has fair and dtilt. I'm not really sure what shield pressure marth is putting on against anyone. Perfectly spaced dtilt maybe? Peach has a lot of options OoS also. Her dair puts more pressure on shields than anything marth has. She edge guards him extremely well. also.

There's a reason the marth boards hated you, and its because you never posted anything intelligent EVER. That guide was a disaster. But here now all I see in all of these posts here is bias & bitterness, You obv didn't have the skill or tenacity to stay a Marth main so you switched. OMG there's so much disinformation or Marth-hate in this s*** that it is just pointless and useless. Saying Shaya has bias is downright ********. Shaya's skill level/exp/knowledge far dwarfs yours regardless of who Shaya mains. Leave your bias or personal feelings out of this discussion.


EDIT: Oh, and its FOW, not fogo.

Fow is the Ness player from Nevada.

Fogo is a DDD in texas, IIRC.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Marth vs Snake is not even. 6/4 Snake's advantage. Weight, damage output and ease of KOing all favor Snake. Snake's ground game > Marth's ground game. Marth's safest ground move that actually outranges Snake, is Dtilt, which is only safe when perfectly spaced, barely outranges Snake's Ftilt1, does a mere 10% damage and loses to dash attack anyway. Snake's simple jab and Ftilt resets are superior. Snake's camping > Marth's approaching. Marth approaches recklessly(this is bad) or he doesn't approach at all. Any holes or whiffs in Marth's approach can be exploited by a Dash Attack into Mortar Slide.

I will say that Marth can cover Snake's ledge options pretty well, however I feel that Marth's ability to juggle trap Snake is pretty overrated. Snake has the best B-reversing in the game, and it's godly when used correctly, not to mention his wealth of other options for avoiding/countering aerial pursuit. Also, Marth's favored CP stage, Battlefield, is also a fantastic Snake stage, so, um, yeah. It's pretty evident to me that Marth has to work harder in this matchup, and when you have to work harder than the other guy, it's not even or in your favor.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you do not realize this, just saying for Luigi, the infinite is now virtually banned within the community. This matchup is actually completely fine without it. For the other characters, why yes. D3 and Bowser can't avoid grabs and Wolf has such a predictable/horrible recovery and Mario and Samus simply can't kill D3. All of these characters are lowered due to D3's chain grab but Luigi avoids the chain grab outside the infinite.

Besides, none of these characters outside of DK, Luigi, and Wolf actually have slight viability in tournaments outside of if there is Boss or someone similarly strong playing. There are other top tier/high tier characters that counter these characters heavily as well. It's not like D3 is the only one.

Thatis because the community is surprisingly governed by scrubtastic thoughts when it is in regards to infinites.

BAN DDD AND MARTH INFINITES! ITS NOT FAIR!

Its okay to let the IC's infinite though, i mean hey, so Marth and DDD only infinite a little more than a handful of characters. Thats far, far much more of an issue than a character who 0-deaths EVERYONE.
Factof the matter is the community bans it primarily because it is immature in spite of how long it has been around.
No johns

 

[V]

There's a reason the marth boards hated you, and its because you never posted anything intelligent EVER. That guide was a disaster. But here now all I see in all of these posts here is bias & bitterness, You obv didn't have the skill or tenacity to stay a Marth main so you switched. OMG there's so much disinformation or Marth-hate in this s*** that it is just pointless and useless. Saying Shaya has bias is downright ********. Shaya's skill level/exp/knowledge far dwarfs yours regardless of who Shaya mains. Leave your bias or personal feelings out of this discussion.


EDIT: Oh, and its FOW, not fogo.

Fow is the Ness player from Nevada.

Fogo is a DDD in texas, IIRC.

Yes FOW is the Ness player and Fogo is the Texas DDD.

I just read the discussion in the Snake boards about Marth vs Snake and most of them seem to think Marth is tougher than Meta Knight and they actually have it as 55-45 Marth's favor. They say he juggles him better than MK and can punish anything Snake has OoS with Dancing Blade. They also mentioned how Marth's dair spike's the sh*t out of his recovery. Marth also lacks the transcended priority MK does, so if you space a fair right on Snake's shield after he drops a grenade, it won't blow it up.

I'm starting to think Marth does better than MK too. Look at how the top level MK/Snake/Marth players are all doing against eachother. Ally is beating M2K. MikeHAZE is starting to beat Ally consistently. If we're going to compare the two MUs we need to look at the top level players (aforementioned). @ Legendary. Saying Ally struggles against Marth is just an easy, non logical way out of the argument.

EDIT: @ ShadowLink84. Even if Marth's grab release infinites were banned, he'd still **** the Earthbound boys. We don't need the grab release to win, we shut them down with our zoning game anyway. The grab release just makes it stupid easy to win. Even without it, those MUs don't take a whole lot of effort to win.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol wth? Snake doesnt beat marth and even if he did it would never be 65:35. Whoever posted that should really leave this thread. What kind of stupidity lead him to make an assumption like that? He must Suck as a marth.

Marth Beats Snake 55:45 and snake is one of my mains. Actually in my opinion It's 50/50. But all snakes and NEO (best marth) agree Marth beats Snake. Go to Snake boards and Susa has given a detailed explanation. It really makes sense after reading it and seeing as how mikehaze did everything Susa said to Ally.

Are you sure you're quoting neo correctly?

Falco is not even. It's easy to get around his camping and once your inside Falco can't do crap to keep Marth out. I think 60-40 is correct. Bowser and Peach are definitely not closer to even. All Bowser has in that MU to seriously damage Marth are his up angled ftilt and grab releases to rack up damage. If Marth plays a safe offense staying just outside the grab range than Bowser doesn't have anything on him. Besides we gimp him to hell and back. Peach isn't even either. We can camp her because turnips aren't a good enough projectile to force us to approach. Dark Peach has even said the purpose for turnips are to mindgame, not to camp with. Marth's jab and ftilt take care of a lot of her approaching moves and once we back her into a corner, similar to Falco, she doesn't have a whole lot to stop Marth's pressure game.

I think at worst ROB and DK are 55-45 their favor but Marth still has good tools to deal with them, it's just they have good tools to fight back with.

The Marth boards should go back and change the MU ratios. Snake is 55-45 his favor, not 60-40 anymore.

I really wouldn't say falco has nothing once you get inside of his laser because of how good is jab is. Now if you're getting inside of the laser and staying outside of jab range that can be diifferent. But there's a lot of things falco can do to just either reset the situation or get inside to where his *** can be effective.

As for bowser his up angeled ftilt makes it pretty difficult for marth to approach with SH's. Up B OoS is also good. Grab release isn't all that power has. His neutral B is also pretty effective can't do it too much because Marth can up B out of it.

Just because Marth's jab and ftilt can cover a lot of things doesn't mean that it does. If you're going to tell me that marth can win a match up on his jab and ftil i'd rather not hear that.

1. Dtilt is safe on anyones shield, you can't punish a character that has ****ing frame advantage on you.

2. Bair and fair can be used as frame traps against air dodges... It isn't just waiting for an airdodge then uairing, you can FORCE them to airdodge or get hit. Either way they get hit though.

1. As for the dtilt I recall steel2nd saying that marth's dtilt wasn't safe on snakes shield.

2. I'm not sure how well bair can be used for that since it's a low slower than fair.

There's a reason the marth boards hated you, and its because you never posted anything intelligent EVER. That guide was a disaster. But here now all I see in all of these posts here is bias & bitterness, You obv didn't have the skill or tenacity to stay a Marth main so you switched. OMG there's so much disinformation or Marth-hate in this s*** that it is just pointless and useless. Saying Shaya has bias is downright ********. Shaya's skill level/exp/knowledge far dwarfs yours regardless of who Shaya mains. Leave your bias or personal feelings out of this discussion.


EDIT: Oh, and its FOW, not fogo.

Fow is the Ness player from Nevada.

Fogo is a DDD in texas, IIRC.

It's not bias on my part TBH. If the Marth guide was a disaster then steel is to blame because I sent it to him and he gave me the ok. I was also seeking yall input to improve it. However, it didn't want because of the nature of the marth boards. Still to this day there isn't a Marth guide for beginners that want learn how to play Marth. That's just a poor job on the marth boards as a whole. As for my skill with marth they were most likely lacking as proven by my results. The tenacity I must not of had it I got tired of playing a character and not getting the results I wanted. I also didn't like playing Marth TBH. Shaya has made claims about Marth that hasn't been backed yet. Is he a good Marth yes is he. Is his marth better than mine yes. However, don't get it twisted that there isn't bias on his side. I guess Emblem Lord was bias also amirite? Also I hated the Marth boards also.

You're right it is FOW and not Fogo but you know what I meant by it and I messed up on the name it happens no one is perfect.

 

[Albert.]

I really wouldn't say falco has nothing once you get inside of his laser because of how good is jab is. Now if you're getting inside of the laser and staying outside of jab range that can be diifferent.

WAIT WHAT iS THAT? Is that SPACING?! HUH?! does Marth have range?1?! what is this I don't ev.....

Just because Marth's jab and ftilt can cover a lot of things doesn't mean that it does.

What? Can you read that sentence back to yourself please?

2. I'm not sure how well bair can be used for that since it's a low slower than fair.

He was talking about air-dodge- baiting frame traps.

You've obviously never been able to do that if you're questioning it xD


I feel that in your posts you're assuming that the Marth players are all mid-level do-nothings.

How many times do people have to repeat "the tier list is based on the top level of play"

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

WAIT WHAT iS THAT? Is that SPACING?! HUH?! does Marth have range?1?! what is this I don't ev.....




What? Can you read that sentence back to yourself please?




He was talking about air-dodge- baiting frame traps.

You've obviously never been able to do that if you're questioning it xD


I feel that in your posts you're assuming that the Marth players are all mid-level do-nothings.

How many times do people have to repeat "the tier list is based on the top level of play"

How many times has steel said that 99% of Marth mains are bad....opps. Nice try though

 

[V]

Are you sure you're quoting neo correctly?



I really wouldn't say falco has nothing once you get inside of his laser because of how good is jab is. Now if you're getting inside of the laser and staying outside of jab range that can be diifferent. But there's a lot of things falco can do to just either reset the situation or get inside to where his *** can be effective.

As for bowser his up angeled ftilt makes it pretty difficult for marth to approach with SH's. Up B OoS is also good. Grab release isn't all that power has. His neutral B is also pretty effective can't do it too much because Marth can up B out of it.

Just because Marth's jab and ftilt can cover a lot of things doesn't mean that it does. If you're going to tell me that marth can win a match up on his jab and ftil i'd rather not hear that.



1. As for the dtilt I recall steel2nd saying that marth's dtilt wasn't safe on snakes shield.

2. I'm not sure how well bair can be used for that since it's a low slower than fair.

The only thing Falco can do to reset the situation is to phantasm to the other side and start SHDL again. That's why we strike/ban FD so he can't get away with it.

Marth doesn't have to approach Bowser from the air. He can approach with dtilt/ftilt/jab just fine. If Bowser uses flame breath we can DI into him and make him eat Dolphin Slash which will get him off the ledge. If we play a safe offense Bowser doesn't have a whole lot on him but it's still 60-40. Bowser is actually pretty decent IMO, maybe worthy of bottom C tier.

Against Peach, powershielding/swatting turips, WALKING for spacing, (Marth's best AT ), and jab/ftilt/fair/DB take care of almost everything she has. Good defensive zoning really hinders her ability to land a kill move. She has to really outsmart us with turnips to land a kill move.

EDIT: @ almostlegendary. It wouldn't matter if 99% of Marth's are horrible and 99% of Meta Knight's are part God, the tier list is still based off TOP level players.

*Face palms in anguish over the displayed stupidity

 

[Gindler]

I hope people don't start picking up marth, he has been awfully underrepresented.

 

[Albert.]

How many times has steel said that 99% of Marth mains are bad....opps. Nice try though

Your Love/Hatred of Steel is so creepy.

Not that that statistic could ever be proven, but how does that matter though, AT ALL? It actually kind of proves the point. Alright so Marth is a really popular character that alot of people main. if you have 200 Marth mains (there are that many, at least) that 1% is still MikeHaze and NEO, 2 people who are obviously the current representation top-level marth ****** metagame.

sucky *** reply.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Marth has to space perfectly everything against snake to even come remotely close to him in this match up. Otherwise eat ftilt or utilt out of shield. Dtilt on shield isn't safe because of ftilt. Utilt makes approaching from the air very troublesome. Cooked nades and nade countering are also effective although if the marth spaces perfectly he wont explode the nades. But let's be realistic here. There's to much has to do perfectly in order to just avoid get punished/ killed. Outside of early percentages auto canceled uairs marth's juggle game is dependent on bait air dodges and punishing them. Last I checked baiting didn't have anything to do with a match up.



I think 6-4 is too much. Slight advantage if any at all honestly. I'm not really sure how good Marth's tool all for the match up his fair is good and he does out range her but that doesn't auto mean it's 6-4. He has fair and dtilt. I'm not really sure what shield pressure marth is putting on against anyone. Perfectly spaced dtilt maybe? Peach has a lot of options OoS also. Her dair puts more pressure on shields than anything marth has. She edge guards him extremely well. also.

Assume technical perfection, top of the metagame remember? The only reason the character with the farthest safe range shouldn't be in that range is because something happened to make the range closer.



As far as baiting and punishing, when it's about the player, no. When it's about the character having attributes that make baiting and punishing easier or more effective, oh **** yea it is. I'd go so far as to say that people ignoring that is the chief reason why "on-paper" match-ups don't match the match-ups in reality.

 

[Albert.]

Assume technical perfection, top of the metagame remember?

This^^^ a hundred times this.

 

[V]

This^^^ a hundred times this.

I second this motion

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Your Love/Hatred of Steel is so creepy.

Not that that statistic could ever be proven, but how does that matter though, AT ALL? It actually kind of proves the point. Alright so Marth is a really popular character that alot of people main. if you have 200 Marth mains (there are that many, at least) that 1% is still MikeHaze and NEO, 2 people who are obviously the current representation top-level marth ****** metagame.

sucky *** reply.

Assume technical perfection, top of the metagame remember? The only reason the character with the farthest safe range shouldn't be in that range is because something happened to make the range closer.



As far as baiting and punishing, when it's about the player, no. When it's about the character having attributes that make baiting and punishing easier or more effective, oh **** yea it is. I'd go so far as to say that people ignoring that is the chief reason why "on-paper" match-ups don't match the match-ups in reality.

That's pretty convenient let's look at match ups from a perspective we can never meet. Thus part of the reason Marth's match ups are hyped. On paper Marth has some of the best match ups in the game I believe right after MK it's marth. However, Marth isn't seen in an results of any big tournies. But I guess theory crafting is better than actual results. I can point to multiple occasion where Marth has been knocked out of huge tournies by characters in which he is considered to have a 65-35 advantage. Yet the match up barely changes but Haze beats snake and all of a sudden it's even. **** I'm pretty sure they will call the match up in Marth's favor if haze would of beaten m2k.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

Almost legendary you are BAD lol, you have no clue what you are talking about.

I personally find the marth boards to be getting alittle dumb, but some know what they are talking about.

And please remember we are talking about the highest level of play not, "omfgz snake ***** me he must be a hard counter" peach vs marth even? **** no where do you get your info from? Rob and dk yes are in marth's favor slighty.

Please stop posting til you grow some sense.

God I hate taking naps and waking up to nonsense LOL

 

[∫unk]

lol this thread

just play

 

[phi1ny3]

lol this thread

just play

Best

advice

evar.

For the record I don't think Snake v. Marth is in Marth's favor, but near even. No way is it that bad though.
ROB is Marth's disadvantage in terms of stage viability. Marth may be underrated, but his recovery/offstage defense (not to be confused with edgegaurding) is not so good for his level of play.
DK is a tossup, NEO has been the biggest proponent in the "Marth's favor" thing, but he's been beaten a few times by DKs, so I'm not sure whether he needs to retune to the MU or what, but I think it's very possible that it's in DK's favor by a very slight amount, but otherwise pretty even. The thing is that I don't think a lot of people take advantage of vertical zoning against DK at the right time, which would help a lot in the MU.

And AL, even when Mike and even NEO were doing well v. MK for the longest time, Marth boards still didn't think the MU got any better than 65:35 disadvantage, so I don't think that the Marth boards are quick to shift ratios unless they feel there's a reason to do so. There was clearly a change of play that if you looked at current discussion v. old discussion, you would see how much has changed since people have been learning from the pros on how to actually play the MU.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Almost legendary you are BAD lol, you have no clue what you are talking about.

I personally find the marth boards to be getting alittle dumb, but some know what they are talking about.

And please remember we are talking about the highest level of play not, "omfgz snake ***** me he must be a hard counter" peach vs marth even? **** no where do you get your info from? Rob and dk yes are in marth's favor slighty.

Please stop posting til you grow some sense.

God I hate taking naps and waking up to nonsense LOL

I've seen Steel the match up @ Apex in pools. Since you claim I'm saying it's me that gets ***** by snake. Please look at shaya's tourney results. Realize the trend Marth has beaten MK more times at higher levels of play than he has Snake he' also lost to snake More times than he has MK but this fact is conveniently ignored. So like before you make it seem like it's me with this bias please provide something to the contrary. Haze beating ally 2 out 3 times isn't enough to all of a sudden make the match up even.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's pretty convenient let's look at match ups from a perspective we can never meet. Thus part of the reason Marth's match ups are hyped. On paper Marth has some of the best match ups in the game I believe right after MK it's marth. However, Marth isn't seen in an results of any big tournies. But I guess theory crafting is better than actual results.

Because people improve over the life of the game, and for match-ups they have difficulty with, they concentrate on areas that they can take advantage of in the match-up.


Match-ups are supposed to hold true unless there are new discoveries, players simply getting better at what is known should NOT effect the MU chart at all.


So yes, right logic>experimentation, scientific method 101.

 

[Ripple]

I'm pretty sure DK vs. Marth is dead even

 

[V]

That's pretty convenient let's look at match ups from a perspective we can never meet. Thus part of the reason Marth's match ups are hyped. On paper Marth has some of the best match ups in the game I believe right after MK it's marth. However, Marth isn't seen in an results of any big tournies. But I guess theory crafting is better than actual results. I can point to multiple occasion where Marth has been knocked out of huge tournies by characters in which he is considered to have a 65-35 advantage. Yet the match up barely changes but Haze beats snake and all of a sudden it's even. **** I'm pretty sure they will call the match up in Marth's favor if haze would of beaten m2k.

Marth's MUs on paper are recently starting to change as well as his tournament results and he's starting to perform to what his paper MUs say he should. I think in a couple months or so we'll see top Marth's catch up to the DK MU and start proving Marth is indeed 2nd in the game as far as MU ratios go.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yet the match up barely changes but Haze beats snake and all of a sudden it's even.

Same logic could used to call Wolf vs Marth in Wolf's favor, after Atomsk beat Neo with Wolf in a mm recently and with Atomsk believing that Wolf wins, lol. Of course, such an argument would not be tolerated.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Because people improve over the life of the game, and for match-ups they have difficulty with, they concentrate on areas that they can take advantage of in the match-up.


Match-ups are supposed to hold true unless there are new discoveries, players simply getting better at what is known should NOT effect the MU chart at all.


So yes, right logic>experimentation, scientific method 101.

So what has been discovered for the marth match up to go from 6-4 to even?