The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Spelt]

i could go into how bad could mean many different things relative to what it's compared against and how you're pretty much stating what i'm saying in a different fashion but i'll spare you from that.

Cod is a type of Fish.

i thought it was a type of fruit. D:

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Because I am DMG. My word is law.

For example, Wario loses to Marth.

IC's lose to MK.

Marth is a girl.

Shiek got dem thighs.

Cod is a type of Fish.


Do you see where I am going with this?

I think marth wario is even.

 

[laki]

I never said marth was a bad character. comprehension fail

I said he wasn't good enough to be in "S" tier. having even match ups isn't a bad thing but when a character has more favorable match ups then it means that character is better. D3 has more favorable match ups than marth and not to metion D3 completely negates 6 characters viability.



l2 read before posting and agreeing with someone who didn't understand what I said at all

Eh? D3 matchups vs the best chars in the game which should hold the most weight as opposed to overall matchup spread.

Note I like the idea of not using 5s and sticking with just even, soft counter and hard counter (50/50 60/40 70/30):

Falco=30/70 get *****
MK=40/60 loss
Olimar=40/60 loss or worse
Icies=40/60 loss
Diddy=50/50
Wario=50/50 but matchup is pretty stage dependent
Marth=60/40
Snake=60/40 win


Marths Matchups:

Mk=40/60 or 30/70 Bad either way
DDD=40/60 loss
Snake=50/50
Diddy=60/40 win
Falco=60/40 win
Icies=60/40 win
Wario=60/40 win
Olimar=60/40 win

Just sayin.

Edit: This basically amplifys DMG point assuming you agree with my numbers.

 

[ShadowLink84]

actually most of the top D3 players consider ICS to be even along with olimar, so no he doesn't lose to characters that matter except falco.

thats 1 bad match up

Opinions are meaningless to me if I don't have their arguments at hand.
That is the same as saying "I have a source, just no article discussing the homosexual gene".
I can't do anything with just words. Let alone that people CAN be wrong so going just on what people consider without a proper argument is meaningless.


I still think IC's and Olimar are an issue for DDD. Maybe not IC's but i cant see how Olimar is NOT and issue for DDD to fight.

 

[Ripple]

i could go into how bad could mean many different things relative to what it's compared against and how you're pretty much stating what i'm saying in a different fashion but i'll spare you from that.



i thought it was a type of fruit. D:

so you're saying my definition of "bad" isn't good enough?

being the top of A tier is being good in my book. considering you're only worse than 7 characters

 

[Albert.]

Marth snake isn't 55:45 it's closer to 65:35 TBH.

you're saying 65:35 Snake advantage? Thats like OLD thinking dude. Most people now think its between 60-40 or 50-50.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

you're saying 65:35 Snake advantage? Thats like OLD thinking dude. Most people now think its between 60-40 or 50-50.

I know but until I see more Marth's handling the match up better or placing better than snakes I find it hard to believe that the match up is all of a sudden even. There are something Marth can pull off to make the match up go his way but that's nothing more than gimmicks/situational stuff that can't be counted on in every match up.

d3 Loses to Zelda trufax guys.

 

[laki]

I know but until I see more Marth's handling the match up better or placing better than snakes I find it hard to believe that the match up is all of a sudden even. There are something Marth can pull off to make the match up go his way but that's nothing more than gimmicks/situational stuff that can't be counted on in every match up.

d3 Loses to Zelda trufax guys.

Marth can juggle snake like no other *hyperbole* and edge guards him very well even being able to spike snake with his bleh dair.

Also, it's not as hard for marth to get in as you would think and once he is in, it's easy for Marf to rack up damage quickly either via dancing blade or u-throw to u-air juggle traps.

Alternatively, I think I've heard Marths say that they can just camp snake :/

As for Zelda beating D3, how many people are gonna play Zelda >_>

 

[zeldspazz]

I personally dont think Zelda beats DDD tbh, DDD has too many tools to deal with Zelda. Just because he's big and she doesnt get CGed doesnt mean its automatically Zelda's adcantage.

DDD outclasses her in edgeguarding, approaching, aerially, killing, survivability, range, and OoS options.

Zelda....."camps" better. Slightly. And can edgeguard him. LK if youre lucky and he doesnt sheild grab you.

I think its 40:60, ever since we've redicussed this on the boards and talking about it Im convinced that this is 60:40 DDD Advantage. There is no way that Zelda can be disadvantaged in all these areas and still have the advantage. It just doesnt happen.

 

[rathy Aro]

Marth should never be represented in a tier list lower than the Tier that Falco/Wario/Diddy are in if MK is also not in said tier.

Ripple, this makes sense if you think about the tiers as tiers of tourney viablity. MK keeps marth out of MK's level of tourney viability. If MK isn't there Marth has no trouble reaching that level. (Hmmm this logic almost doesn't make sense lol).

Because I am DMG. My word is law.

For example, Wario loses to Marth.

IC's lose to MK.

Marth is a girl.

Shiek got dem thighs.

Cod is a type of Fish.


Do you see where I am going with this?

LMAO!!
I've been saying this since brawl came out.

And can people leave marth alone? He's not a woman, he's just confused.

edit: Yeah Zelda definately doesn't out right beat DDD. I remember thinking this in the first 3 months of the game coming out. After you realize that DDD isn't only good because of the cg you can see he should do pretty decently in that match up.

 

[Shaya]

Snake thinks Marth is manly.
You fools.

Marth ***** Snake.
BELIEVE IT.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Marth can juggle snake like no other *hyperbole* and edge guards him very well even being able to spike snake with his bleh dair.

Also, it's not as hard for marth to get in as you would think and once he is in, it's easy for Marf to rack up damage quickly either via dancing blade or u-throw to u-air juggle traps.

Alternatively, I think I've heard Marths say that they can just camp snake :/

As for Zelda beating D3, how many people are gonna play Zelda >_>

IDK I have a lot of trouble edgeguarding against Snake. Snake can b reverse nades for a little bit of separation also. The uair juggles only works if you can bait the air dodges. But if you do get them in they're super effective especially if their FF at low percentages. Not many people play Zelda at all =/.

I personally dont think Zelda beats DDD tbh, DDD has too many tools to deal with Zelda. Just because he's big and she doesnt get CGed doesnt mean its automatically Zelda's adcantage.

DDD outclasses her in edgeguarding, approaching, aerially, killing, survivability, range, and OoS options.

Zelda....."camps" better. Slightly. And can edgeguard him. LK if youre lucky and he doesnt sheild grab you.

I think its 40:60, ever since we've redicussed this on the boards and talking about it Im convinced that this is 60:40 DDD Advantage. There is no way that Zelda can be disadvantaged in all these areas and still have the advantage. It just doesnt happen.

I'd don't agree with the majority of the Zelda's boards so I don't think it's as bad as they say. Also you can walk to shield and dash to shield as well. Bair OoS is rather good.

 

[zeldspazz]

I'd don't agree with the majority of the Zelda's boards so I don't think it's as bad as they say. Also you can walk to shield and dash to shield as well. Bair OoS is rather good.

Yeah....I know you dont

But still this is just facts, not opinions. Tell me how Zelda can outclass DDD to score the advantage.

And I dont really get the sheild and sheild dashing part X.X DDD can just grab you OoS with hax grab range.

 

[V]

bias much?


although marth does destroy people and do very well I think that D3 will be above him because D3 has better tools to deal with other characters and arguably only loses to 2-3 characters.

MK, ICs, and falco.

Marth goes even or next to even with many characters including some in B and C tier and is not qualified to be in S tier

edit: kofu I'm sorry but ZSS is no where near as good as G&W

King Dedede goes even with Jigglypuff and she's in Fail tier.

DMG is right. Safe is better than having many advantages. Marth is much safer than King Dedede. And ICs.

 

[zeldspazz]

King Dedede goes even with Jigglypuff and she's in Fail tier.

What does that have to do with anything? Jiggs goes even with Diddy too :\

I like Jiggs...lol. So much more deserving of a better spot on the tier list imo.

 

[Chuee]

I like Jiggs...lol. So much more deserving of a better spot on the tier list imo.

Until she gets killed at 80%

 

[V]

What does that have to do with anything? Jiggs goes even with Diddy too :\

I like Jiggs...lol. So much more deserving of a better spot on the tier list imo.

Ripple was saying Marth has even MUs with characters in B and C tier therefore He doesn't qualify as an S tier character. So I pointed out how King Dedede goes even with a character far worse than B or C tier because he had D3 in S tier and Marth in A tier.

 

[zeldspazz]

Until she gets killed at 80%

Lrn2DI? That way Jiggs lives to 85% :D

No seriously though, she can aircamp like a *****

@Drewk: Im pretty sure Marth has to go even with at least a couple of those lower tiered characters. Im not convinced he goes at least 40:60 with everyone below D Tier.

 

[V]

Snake thinks Marth is manly.
You fools.

Marth ***** Snake.
BELIEVE IT.

This X 10

I agree with Shaya that Marth does better against Snake than Meta Knight does.

*Prepares to take infinite flaming*

 

[Aibou]

Ripple was saying Marth has even MUs with characters in B and C tier therefore He doesn't qualify as an S tier character. So I pointed out how King Dedede goes even with a character far worse than B or C tier because he had D3 in S tier and Marth in A tier.

That is so true. And aside from that, Marth has only like, three or four matchups that are actually against him. The rest are either even or in his favor. Marth and D3 should swap places imo.

 

[V]

Lrn2DI? That way Jiggs lives to 85% :D

No seriously though, she can aircamp like a *****

@Drewk: Im pretty sure Marth has to go even with at least a couple of those lower tiered characters. Im not convinced he goes at least 40:60 with everyone below D Tier.

D Tier: Bowser, Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Ike
E Tier: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F Tier: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

Would you care to enlighten me as to how any of these characters go 45-55 or better against Marth?

 

[zeldspazz]

D Tier: Bowser, Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Ike
E Tier: Lucas, Mario, Ness, Yoshi, Samus
F Tier: Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Link, Ganondorf

Would you care to enlighten me as to how any of these characters go 45-55 or better against Marth?

Dude, Im no Marth expert. Its very odd to me though that Snake supposedly goes even with a couple of them, yet Marth simply destroys them. Along with apparently outstanding top tier and high tier MUs, how can he be 7th in the game. It makes no sense at all.

I call shenanigans.

In other words, I have no idea. Just seems fishy to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know Marth does better against Ike then Snake. >_>

35-65 and 4-6 respectively.

IIRC, Samus has the tools to do okay against Snake...I could be wrong, I don't check the Samus boards that much.

 

[zeldspazz]

All I can say is if these MUs that the Marth Boards are pumping out are correct, then I better see Marth in the top 5. Other than that MK matchup, which is winnable, Marth is completely safe in every matchup, and even goes advantages with most of the high/top tiers.

 

[V]

Dude, Im no Marth expert. Its very odd to me though that Snake supposedly goes even with a couple of them, yet Marth simply destroys them. Along with apparently outstanding top tier and high tier MUs, how can he be 7th in the game. It makes no sense at all.

I call shenanigans.

In other words, I have no idea. Just seems fishy to me.

As far as Snake going even with a couple low tiers and Marth not, they both have totally different movesets and weakness, so it's plausible that a low tier character has a quality that's exploitable on Snake but not on Marth. Which low tier characters supposedly go even with Snake?

 

[zeldspazz]

Apparently PT, Mario, Yoshi, and maybe Ike Ive heard. Dont quote me on this >_>

I need to go back to the Zelda Boards where I know my **** lol.

 

[rathy Aro]

Marth is a solid character with no special tricks so he does well against characters who are generally worse than him. I feel like this is the reason he does so evenly so consistently in the top tier.

But yeah he specifically beats everyone of those characters from what i remember. He outranges almost all of them, kills better than almost all of them, recovers more easily than most of them, gimps better than most of them. He's balanced so if one of them beats him in one thing he probably beats them in everything else.

 

[Shaya]

Marth is 50-50 with Snake.
55:45 Snake with port priority.

Marth is heavily inflicted by "LOL METAKNIGHT".

He handles many low tier characters better than Snake because Marth actually has **** approaching options on lower tiers.
Whilst Snake doesn't really have any.

PT does NOT EVEN GO CLOSE TO EVEN WITH SNAKE.
THAT IS HORRIBLY RIDICULOUS.

Ike... hell no.

Mario and Yoshi... umm... doubtful. Like both Mario and Yoshi have some things going for them in the match up... but I think its a stretch to call it even.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike boards have never said we go even with Snake. >_>

4-6 =/= Even.

 

[V]

Apparently PT, Mario, Yoshi, and maybe Ike Ive heard. Dont quote me on this >_>

I need to go back to the Zelda Boards where I know my **** lol.

I'm going to guess that the reason Yoshi might go closer to even against Snake is that Yoshi has the aerial mobility to avoid his camping. I'm not too sure about this and I'm completely unsure of why the others might be even. We'd have to get some PT, Mario, Yoshi, and Ike mains to come in here and explain why.

@ Shaya. Yeah Marth does have good approach options against low tiers because none of them have defensive capabilities that best Marth's offensive capabilities.

I'm starting to think Marth goes even with Snake too. After watching vids of MikeHAZE vs Ally over and over again and analyzing them, I'm starting to see how Marth can exploit his weaknesses very well and Snake only has a few things to stop him from doing so (nades, ftilt, utilt).

 

[Shaya]

i can explain in place of PT.

Charizard, Ivy and Squirtle have horrible rolls.
Snake dthrow = lololololololol.

Charizard's rolls are so bad his back roll doesnt even go BEHIND snake. One less option for Snake to worry about in dealing with zard. Zard's **** grab range is really all he has in the match up.

Ivy doesn't outcamp Snake. First hit of ftilt cancels out razor leaf. Yes razor leaf insta blows up Nades, but Snakes nades have a lot more depth in terms of usage than Razor leaf does (i.e. lopped over the head etc). Take into considering Ivy's weakness to fire moves too (All explosives)...

Squirtle gets release grab cg'd to the ledge if the snake wants to. Completely outranges him. Squirtle does the best out of all 3 but will never really kill snake.

Include fatigue and Snake's stupid weight and survivability and you got a lol match up.

 

[Kofu]

Bowser goes somewhere from 45-55 to 40-60 with Marth I believe. Not really even though.

 

[Albert.]

@Drewk: Im pretty sure Marth has to go even with at least a couple of those lower tiered characters. Im not convinced he goes at least 40:60 with everyone below D Tier.

omg xD

There are tiers for a reason. What would you expect out of a top 8 character? A character as good as Marth or anyone above should not have those type of bad match-ups with characters that are worse. (low tiers) Its logic. and LOL at the idea of any of those low tiers going even with Snake. I'm really sounding elitist right now but they are low for a reason.

I love playing as them though lol GANON too fun

 

[Yonder]

What? I don't think vs. Luigi is 75-25

True. Old thinking. 60-40 DDD I think. 65-35 at wery worse with the infinate in full effect >_<

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Link vs Marth is 60:40 Marth. =D

 

[adumbrodeus]

True. Old thinking. 60-40 DDD I think. 65-35 at wery worse with the infinate in full effect >_<

At the top of the metagame the infinite is useless, becaise Luigi's already in kill percents when it becomes an infinite.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

Whoever said marth vs snake was 65 -35 in snakes favor has no idea what they are talking about. Actually half of you don't know what you are saying.

Shaya hit the nail on the coffin though.

 

[The Truth!]

Marth snake isn't 55:45 it's closer to 65:35 TBH.

MH has beaten ally in two sets already.

I think that as Brawl ages, people will see the importance of "safety" in a character. Having only a few small disadvantages and only a few advantages is usually better than having a lot of greatly advantaged matchups and having a lot of greatly disadvantaged matchups.

If your character's worst matchup/few worst matchups are 6/4, that's viewed by the community as "winnable". If your character has even 1 or 2 65:35 or harder matchups, it becomes less likely you will win that.


Take a double Blind pick for example. First match, you have no idea what he will pick, he has no idea what you will pick.

For the sake of argument, the stage is FD.

Take Marth. AT WORST, he might have it 6/4 or 65:35 against, say MK, there. He also might have 55:45 or 6/4 against Snake, and 55:45 against Dedede himself while going relatively even with the rest of the cast or having a slight plus on them.

Now take Dedede. AT WORST, something like IC's/Diddy/Falco will happen, likely being 65:35 or even a possible 7:3. He also will have to deal with MK, Olimar, and maybe 1-2 more bad matchups. Now, he will have a lot of 7/3 or 65:35 in his favor, and a few even matchups too.


Marth is the "safer" pick in that instance. He might not beat a lot of people 65:35 or 7/3 like Dedede, but he doesn't lose/have as many bad matchups as Dedede. Pure odds wise, assuming the other guy picks a random character, Marth is more likely to get an even or better matchup, while Dedede is favored to get not only a bad matchup, but one of the more severe ones compared to Marth. Even if Marth is matched up with his worst matchup, it's generally seen as "winnable". If Dedede is matched up with his worst matchup, it's seen as "extremely hard to win" or "very very hard to win".

It's an interesting idea, but I believe the reverse is true when most people look to judge a characters value, and it's reflected in the current tier list. For instance currently two of the six S tier characters have matchups worse than 60:40 (DDD, Falco). And right now the popular opinion is that Ice Climbers are capable of moving into S tier while Marth is not. Even though marth has no matchups as difficult as ICs vs Snake and isnt nearly as stage limited, simply being less dominant has made him a less popular choice.

It's something Ive noticed in particular as my main (pikachu) is likely a more extreme example of a safe but not dominating character. Aside from a handful of 'lol' matchups he runs very close to even with just about everyone below and above him, with nothing worse than a 60:40. However as he is not a dominating character, I dont expect to see him in S tier.

Anyways, which characters even have (with little argument) all their matchups better than 40:60? The ones that come to mind are MK, Snake, Wario, Diddy, Marth, and Pika.

 

[Browny]

Whoever said marth vs snake was 65 -35 in snakes favor has no idea what they are talking about. Actually half of you don't know what you are saying.

Shaya hit the nail on the coffin though.

er lol you got two different metaphors mixed up there

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

I noticed after I posted xD sorry I just woke up.