The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[zeldspazz]

Ok, then if you disagree, disagree. Explain why you disagree, and present evidence to back that conclusion up. If you're right, and you understand the metagame well enough it'll show. If you're wrong, when you're proven wrong (and here's where you gotta establish exactly what you think makes you right mentally in terms of concrete evidence), you'll come away with a better understanding of the metagame.


if you think it'll make you look silly, then take it to the PMs.


Everyone started out with inane questions like, "how should I use Sheik's up-throw" (that was mine), but with time and practice with analysis your opinions will get better.

Well, you said that dtilt has bad range, therefore its hard to connect. But it actually has some good range on it, it extends right to the tip of her foot iirc. And it also hits above her up to the top of her head, and slightly (but I mean very slightly) behind her. Its also pretty fast, comes out on frame 5. That description doesnt fit "hard to pull off to me" :\ We may just have different views on how what we consider to be good range.

 

[Overclassed]

Lil by lil people are starting to realize where Peach belongs on the tier list in here.

 

[IkeFiend]

You know, seeing Ike in 'D' kind of makes me proud of myself. Seeing on how I've improved with him and whatsoever, we're a good team and I've put a lot of effort into using him. It's funny how I changed from Marth to Ike though.

...My brother went from Snake to Meta Knight to Link. Now he's sticking to Link. ^_^

 

[shinyspoon42]

The thing about Bowser compared to Zelda is, he is better on defense, and he can approach better as well (lol 10klaws) Even his projectile is better then hers. Bowser has a better grab game, and a better ledge game. He can finish as well, if not easier, and he survives much longer. He spaces better, deals damage better, and is faster. Yes, Bowser and Zelda play similar, but Bowser is better at it.

Biased post gooo!

 

[Laijin]

Bowser sucks. Zelda is a girl so she sucks too. However Sheik is too good. She can combo and she even has an infinite(The Savior combo). She should be top tier in my opinion

 

[Palpi]

only saviors sheik is top tier

 

[Laijin]

Your wrong. Sheik should be above Metaknight in my opinion cause Metaknight does'nt have a combo. And besides Savior stole that combo from billy so savior is a theif and should not be trusted

 

[Palpi]

That *******!

 

[Red Arremer]

Sheik also likes it rough... she does use a chain and needles, after all.

 

[Palpi]

she like one of dem freaky girls

 

[Laijin]

Billy is the inventor of that combo. Not savior.
Besides, Sheik is better than MK.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Peach is always relevant. All the time.

Wow, that's weird. Said I was on the last page... but I wasn't.
Ignore this.

 

[lloDownedu74]

I'm not too familiar with either Zelda's or Bowser's metagames, but I've never seen/played a bowser main, where I have seen a few Zelda mains (on wifi)

Idk if this helps

 

[zeldspazz]

Bowser sucks. Zelda is a girl so she sucks too. However Sheik is too good. She can combo and she even has an infinite(The Savior combo). She should be top tier in my opinion

Isnt Sheik a girl too? O.o

 

[Red Arremer]

A crossdressing girl. So she's safe.

 

[shinyspoon42]

10! 10 off topic posts spawned by my comment! Nice job guys.

 

[CRASHiC]

Zelda's a cute girl on the streets, but a freak when the lights go out.
We should definitely make a "Smash charecters in the bed room" tier list.

 

[aeghrur]

Lil by lil people are starting to realize where Peach belongs on the tier list in here.

You mean in the kitchen?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Zelda's a cute girl on the streets, but a freak when the lights go out.
We should definitely make a "Smash charecters in the bed room" tier list.

Sonic would be too fast for anyone.

 

[zeldspazz]

Link, Pit, and Zelda would be top tier, listen to how they sound o.o

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, you said that dtilt has bad range, therefore its hard to connect. But it actually has some good range on it, it extends right to the tip of her foot iirc. And it also hits above her up to the top of her head, and slightly (but I mean very slightly) behind her. Its also pretty fast, comes out on frame 5. That description doesnt fit "hard to pull off to me" :\ We may just have different views on how what we consider to be good range.

Ok, good.

So, why's the range bad? Because you can't get it off reliably in match-ups where it counts.


Really, because it's a combo starter, but requires the opponent to be inside Zelda's zone of control, it doesn't extend far enough to reliably to really change Zelda's match-ups with really rare exceptions, because her other moves extend further anyway, meaning if you mess with the opponent's spacing, they're gonna be in range for an f-smash to punish, not a dtilt (and if Zelda didn't have moves that long ranged, she'd have no defensive game to speak of, because miffed spacing would be basically within a pixel of her).


So honestly, what match-ups should you reliably hit with it? Match-ups with characters that have to get in Zelda's face and actually do approach her anyway, the one's without the spacing game to beat out her other options.


So, it's good in those match-ups, and it helps if you really read your opponent well, but it has bad range because it really doesn't have the range to make a real difference.

You mean in the kitchen?

I'm sorry, that just wasn't funny.

 

[Clai]

Zelda's a cute girl on the streets, but a freak when the lights go out.
We should definitely make a "Smash charecters in the bed room" tier list.

This is really... really... creepy. Seriously, why would you be wasting your time conjuring a tier list about video game characters in bed when you can be using that time getting a real girl in your bed. This is just wholly unneeded.

I do have to say lol at Sonic being too fast for everyone, though. That was good.

Yes. Bowser is definitely not much better than Zelda. If you think that, you know nothing about either of the 2 characters.

I'm sorry, but saying that Bowser is not much better than Zelda shows to me that you know nothing about Bowser. For such a heavy character, Bowser has great mobility that allows him to get close enough to work grab-release/sideB shenanigans on anyone and his great OoS option in Up+B allows him to escape situations where he can't get inside. Yes, Bowser struggles against projectiles more than most character, but that really only affects him against real projectile-heavy characters on big stages like Final Destination. Unlike Zelda, Bowser does have the mobility to get to characters as long as the amount of space he has to traverse isn't rediculuous.

So yeah, Bowser is much better than Zelda.

bawww

did someone sing you to sleep and draw on your face?

Jigglypuff was annoying in Smash64 and Melee. Annoying, but she had a few good qualities that made her interesting, like up-throw into Rest kills at 25%. They took all of those qualities away from Jigglypuff and now she's just unbearable.

Really, Brawl would be so much better if Mewtwo was in it instead of Jigglypuff. So much better.

 

[Neo Exdeath]

Zelda's a cute girl on the streets, but a freak when the lights go out.
We should definitely make a "Smash charecters in the bed room" tier list.

Nice to know how perverted people can be on this site.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm sorry, but saying that Bowser is not much better than Zelda shows to me that you know nothing about Bowser. For such a heavy character, Bowser has great mobility that allows him to get close enough to work grab-release/sideB shenanigans on anyone and his great OoS option in Up+B allows him to escape situations where he can't get inside. Yes, Bowser struggles against projectiles more than most character, but that really only affects him against real projectile-heavy characters on big stages like Final Destination. Unlike Zelda, Bowser does have the mobility to get to characters as long as the amount of space he has to traverse isn't rediculuous.

So yeah, Bowser is much better than Zelda.

So, the only noticeable things about Bowser instantly make him better than Zelda? His ability to grab release into stuff, upB out of stuff, and claw jump indefinitely?

Well, guess I should be maining Bowser instead. Those sound like options that can win matches. Why lightning kick, or spike, or have a projectile, or use a reflector, when I can Claw Hop or upB OoS?

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm sorry, but saying that Bowser is not much better than Zelda shows to me that you know nothing about Bowser. For such a heavy character, Bowser has great mobility that allows him to get close enough to work grab-release/sideB shenanigans on anyone and his great OoS option in Up+B allows him to escape situations where he can't get inside. Yes, Bowser struggles against projectiles more than most character, but that really only affects him against real projectile-heavy characters on big stages like Final Destination. Unlike Zelda, Bowser does have the mobility to get to characters as long as the amount of space he has to traverse isn't rediculuous.

So yeah, Bowser is much better than Zelda.

No, he isn't. I've played both characters since the Japanese release, and I'm bound to say that they are on a similar level. Bowser probably is a bit better than Zelda, but they're still not that far apart from each other to say Bowser is MUCH better.

Zelda deals more damage, usually, and she can kill earlier.

Both are comparable, because Zelda has, while no Grab-Release shenanigans, DTilt shenanigans. She also has a reflector, and while it's not a good reflector, it does provide her with a bit of protection from projectile-heavy characters. She is also floaty-ish, and is one of the very few characters that are not or hardly able to be chaingrabbed (thus winning the matchups against chaingrabbers, or being even with them).

Zelda's recovery also is slightly better than Bowser's. And she actually does have an offstage game - a pretty decent one at that -, unlike Bowser, who has to rely on Firebreath for edgeguarding.

 

[Clai]

So, the only noticeable things about Bowser instantly make him better than Zelda? His ability to grab release into stuff, upB out of stuff, and claw jump indefinitely?

Well, guess I should be maining Bowser instead. Those sound like options that can win matches. Why lightning kick, or spike, or have a projectile, or use a reflector, when I can Claw Hop or upB OoS?

Who said anything about Klaw-hopping indefinitely? In fact, what does your post even serve? It's not about the single things that Bowser/X character has, it's about how Bowser/X character is able to incorporate them into the character's metagame.

Bowser's Klaw-hopping, combined with his good dash speed and good F-air, allows him to mix up between attacking and retreating and doesn't force him into a linear/easily readable pattern like Zelda. Really, Zelda plays a fine defensive game, but when she has to go on the offensive, what options does she have? Bowser has more viable options than Zelda, and combined with his superior weight, and yes, Bowser is clearly better than Zelda.

EDIT:

No, he isn't. I've played both characters since the Japanese release, and I'm bound to say that they are on a similar level. Bowser probably is a bit better than Zelda, but they're still not that far apart from each other to say Bowser is MUCH better.

Zelda deals more damage, usually, and she can kill earlier.

Both are comparable, because Zelda has, while no Grab-Release shenanigans, DTilt shenanigans. She also has a reflector, and while it's not a good reflector, it does provide her with a bit of protection from projectile-heavy characters. She is also floaty-ish, and is one of the very few characters that are not or hardly able to be chaingrabbed (thus winning the matchups against chaingrabbers, or being even with them).

Zelda's recovery also is slightly better than Bowser's. And she actually does have an offstage game - a pretty decent one at that -, unlike Bowser, who has to rely on Firebreath for edgeguarding.

Alright, so Zelda has D-tilt shenanigans, and how exactly is going to set those up? That's really what I'm getting at- while Zelda certainly has options going for her, she doesn't have the mobility or quick enough moves that she can trap an opponent who's playing defensively. Some of her options may seem okay by itself, but how does she combine them into her game? Bowser is much better assimilating all of his options into a fluid playstyle, while Zelda is just a combination of traits that can't be utilized to the fullest because of her limited capabilities.

 

[Nanaki]

Zelda's recovery also is slightly better than Bowser's. And she actually does have an offstage game - a pretty decent one at that -, unlike Bowser, who has to rely on Firebreath for edgeguarding.

Her Recovery might be slightly longer, but that doesn't matter if she gets KO'd 50%+ earlier. Just saying.

Bowser > Zelda, but not by more than 1 or 2 places.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vex disagrees with Bowsers placement, if it means something.

Also why is so Yoshi low on the list? His MU don't seem that bad, and some characters have worse MU across the board than he does.

 

[AtmaIllumina]

Zelda, Shei, Bowser, w/e....Peach still ***** them all. End of story.

 

[Tien2500]

So, the only noticeable things about Bowser instantly make him better than Zelda? His ability to grab release into stuff, upB out of stuff, and claw jump indefinitely?

Well, guess I should be maining Bowser instead. Those sound like options that can win matches. Why lightning kick, or spike, or have a projectile, or use a reflector, when I can Claw Hop or upB OoS?

Problem is none of those are really that good except for the lightning kicks. Her gimp game isn't that good due to pooer aerial mobility. I'd take Bowser's gimp game over hers spike or not. Her projectile can't force an approach. He reflector has too much cooldown. And its very debatable whether Up B or lightning kicks make a better OOS options.

 

[Red Arremer]

Alright, so Zelda has D-tilt shenanigans, and how exactly is going to set those up?

How is Bowser going to set up his Grab Release properly? He sucks at grabbing, a LOT, and many characters can easily get around his poor-ranged and slow grab. So your mention of Grab Releases is exactly in the same boat.

 

[Clai]

How is Bowser going to set up his Grab Release properly? He sucks at grabbing, a LOT, and many characters can easily get around his poor-ranged and slow grab. So your mention of Grab Releases is exactly in the same boat.

You're looking at Bowser's grab like it's an option that Bowser must rely on to do anything. Bowser doesn't need to use his grab releases as the only way to rack up damage, it's just an addition to his playstyle. Bowser may have a bad grab, but by keeping opponents honest, he's still able to get in grabs in regardless.

Zelda has D-tilt and Lightning Kicks, but what happens when her opponents see them coming and go out of their way to avoid them? How is she going to punish opponents who overprepare for those moves? That's the problem with one-dimensional characters- once you neutralize that dimension, all that's left is... mediocrity.

 

[Red Arremer]

You're making Zelda worse than she is. She doesn't only have her Lightning Kicks and her DTilt. I was naming the DTilt as a counterpart to Bowser's grab releases.

She has far more options. Fastfallers and big characters for example will have big trouble DIing out of well-placed USmashes or FSmashes. She also has a good Jab, he DSmash is extremely useful if the opponent is up close and her UTilt is pretty underrated, as well.
Her moveset is not as terrible as you make it out to be.

The problem Zelda has is that she's built to be a defensive character mainly equipped with KO moves to complement Sheik.

 

[Tien2500]

You're making Zelda worse than she is. She doesn't only have her Lightning Kicks and her DTilt. I was naming the DTilt as a counterpart to Bowser's grab releases.

She has far more options. Fastfallers and big characters for example will have big trouble DIing out of well-placed USmashes or FSmashes. She also has a good Jab, he DSmash is extremely useful if the opponent is up close and her UTilt is pretty underrated, as well.
Her moveset is not as terrible as you make it out to be.

The problem Zelda has is that she's built to be a defensive character mainly equipped with KO moves to complement Sheik.

Zelda's problem is that she's a character with excellent defensive options and no way to force an approach.

 

[Red Arremer]

Zelda's problem is that she's a character with excellent defensive options and no way to force an approach.

That's what I said earlier in this thread, yes.

Do you want a cracker, Polly?

 

[Clai]

You're making Zelda worse than she is. She doesn't only have her Lightning Kicks and her DTilt. I was naming the DTilt as a counterpart to Bowser's grab releases.

She has far more options. Fastfallers and big characters for example will have big trouble DIing out of well-placed USmashes or FSmashes. She also has a good Jab, he DSmash is extremely useful if the opponent is up close and her UTilt is pretty underrated, as well.
Her moveset is not as terrible as you make it out to be.

The problem Zelda has is that she's built to be a defensive character mainly equipped with KO moves to complement Sheik.

It's a possibility. I don't know Zelda well at all, and I may be making her moveset to be terrible when it's really not, but the point stands that any character that can beat Zelda defensively completely shuts her down since she doesn't have the offense to compensate for it.

Even without her set-ups and lightning kicks, she isn't terrible, I think she's just outclassed by Bowser. She's still leagues better than Link or Samus.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Zelda has good defense

Zelda can't not be played aggressive

Zelda is not good at approaching

Chatracters can force her too apprach

^ fawks it all up for her even with her good qualities.

There , I just set the foundation down for Zelda. Never speak of this again.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yea, let's speak about Peach instead, we haven't talked about her at all!

 

[Tien2500]

That's what I said earlier in this thread, yes.

Do you want a cracker, Polly?

Next time I'll make sure I read every single post in this thread to make sure I don't accidentally repeat something that has been already said.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, let's speak about Peach instead, we haven't talked about her at all!

I like this man.

Peach is B-tier. Discuss.