The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[Vermy]

Ness has safer moves.

 

[PhantomX]

Nair comes out a lot faster, has much better knockback, is safer and deals more damage. Watch videos of MK players who are actually GOOD at this game. They NEVER kill with SL and don't even use it that much because it's like the most overrated move EVER. Just compare how many times they kill with Nair and SL ... Nair wins by a HUGE margin.

You should take your own advice. Pretty much the only thing Dojo ever kills me with is grounded shuttle loop. Grounded shuttle loops also pretty much decide MK dittos, and entirely shut down GW. It is far and away the best move in this game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pretty much the only thing Dojo ever kills ME with is grounded shuttle loop.

I care.

MK might not have his shuttle loop and would still be just as good. Can't be said about his nair.

Also Ness > Lucas. Ness is better in close range (better grab = much more options) and has more KO options (Lucas has only slow, grounded smash moves - Ness has bthrow, bair/uair) and is stronger in the air (fair >>> all of Lucas aerials).

 

[Ray_Kalm]

A good KO move? No, because it has overall poor knockback and is super easy to DI.
The best move in Brawl? Not even close. It's way too unsafe to be even close to that. Hit a shield with that and you get massive punishment.

Nair comes out a lot faster, has much better knockback, is safer and deals more damage. Watch videos of MK players who are actually GOOD at this game. They NEVER kill with SL and don't even use it that much because it's like the most overrated move EVER. Just compare how many times they kill with Nair and SL ... Nair wins by a HUGE margin.

Shuttle Loop is very safe if it's used properly.

 

[Nic64]

You should take your own advice. Pretty much the only thing Dojo ever kills me with is grounded shuttle loop. Grounded shuttle loops also pretty much decide MK dittos, and entirely shut down GW. It is far and away the best move in this game.

I don't know if I'd rank it as the best attack in the game, but it is amazing and you don't have to watch MK's like dojo/m2k etc. for very long before you see them make good use of it, the "you barely see top MK's use it or KO with it" comment was very wrong. Honestly I think gheb just posts ridiculous things as bait now...

 

[C.box]

I care.


MK might not have his shuttle loop and would still be just as good. Can't be said about his nair.

Aren't you the one who always says "IMO, in my opinion" when talking about match ups you disagree with.

Also mk without shuttleloop would not be just as good as mk is now quit lying to yourself.

 

[-Mars-]

Nic64 why are you so amazing? Everytime you post I feel like siggin it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shuttle Loop is very safe if it's used properly.

It's 100% unsafe on shield. That's all there is. Most moves are safe if you hit the opponent with it. Some are even safe if you hit their shield with it. SL isn't one of those moves.

I don't know if I'd rank it as the best attack in the game, but it is amazing and you don't have to watch MK's like dojo/m2k etc. for very long before you see them make good use of it, the "you barely see top MK's use it or KO with it" comment was very wrong. Honestly I think gheb just posts ridiculous things as bait now...

OK? Watch teh_spamerer and tell me how many times he uses Shuttle Loop? I talked to M2K on AIM and he told me that SL isn't that good and rarely works against realy GOOD players.
I have yet to see DEHF, Fiction, Ally or NinjaLink getting KOed by Shuttle Loop (not counting gimps) on a consistent basis because it never happens because of the reasons I mentioned before (unsafe move etc).

"and you don't have to watch MK's like dojo/m2k etc. for very long before you see them make good use of it"

Yes, you have to...show me where it happens on TOP LEVEL play.

Aren't you the one who always says "IMO, in my opinion" when talking about match ups you disagree with.

And? There is a difference between opinions and facts.

Opinion: Sheik doesn't harcounter Wolf IMO.
Fact: Shuttle Loop is unsafe on shield and thus not among the best moves in the game.

Also mk without shuttleloop would not be just as good as mk is now quit lying to yourself.

SL doesn't make a difference in any match-up.

Now YOU quit lying.

 

[Luigi player]

MK would be worse without SL, it's what makes him so dangerous on the ledge... and grounded shuttle loop is a really good counter move.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You should take your own advice. Pretty much the only thing Dojo ever kills me with is grounded shuttle loop. Grounded shuttle loops also pretty much decide MK dittos, and entirely shut down GW. It is far and away the best move in this game.

Peach has that same problems with shuttle loop.

Some Peach's say she has mix ups to get around, but for the most part it's a nightmare for her.

 

[smashkng]

I care.

MK might not have his shuttle loop and would still be just as good. Can't be said about his nair.

Also Ness > Lucas. Ness is better in close range (better grab = much more options) and has more KO options (Lucas has only slow, grounded smash moves - Ness has bthrow, bair/uair) and is stronger in the air (fair >>> all of Lucas aerials).

But Lucas has a better recovery, and Lucas' throws also have KO potential. All his smashes are powerful, but they have extreme ending lag. But who cares who's better. They both are low in the tier due their terrible ground break. It can allow for example Wario to finish with forward smash and MK down smash out of it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But Lucas has a better recovery, and Lucas' throws also have KO potential. All his smashes are powerful, but they have extreme ending lag. But who cares who's better. They both are low in the tier due their terrible ground break. It can allow for example Wario to finish with forward smash and MK down smash out of it.

Lucas throws > Ness's Bthrow in KOing power?

lol


Ness is clearly better. No clue why someone would even consider Lucas > Ness.

 

[kingcobra9]

But who cares who's better. They both are low in the tier due their terrible ground break.

you could also wonder why we care about the teir list at all

 

[phi1ny3]

G&W would tell you otherwise about Shuttle loop.

 

[Nic64]

I talked to M2K on AIM and he told me that SL isn't that good and rarely works against realy GOOD players.

He's also said the same thing about tornado and then does this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfvsLDobUNg

Almost every attack in MK's arsenal is great in certain situations, yes you can't just mash up B against everyone mindlessly, but situationally, shuttle loop is amazing.

I have yet to see DEHF, Fiction, Ally or NinjaLink getting KOed by Shuttle Loop (not counting gimps)

It's KO potential is mostly gimping, obviously on stage MK has better, more powerful options that kill earlier. You could never KO with shuttle loop at all and it would still be a great attack though.

"and you don't have to watch MK's like dojo/m2k etc. for very long before you see them make good use of it"

Yes, you have to...show me where it happens on TOP LEVEL play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUkUm3P98ok

^mew2king, first game all 3 KOs via the shuttle loop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJmzWFdfzgw

^teh spammerer, a player you just used as an example of not utilizing much shuttle loop, using it as a major part of how he shuts GAW down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MZkEi7lGtw

it's also quite good in dittos

Yay ignorance!

 

[Tien2500]

While we're at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U9CZLuV0A. 12 Shuttle loops in this match by my count and none of them are punished.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Showing single examples doesn't prove me wrong, Nic.

G&W would tell you otherwise about Shuttle loop.

MK ***** G&W without SL just as hard. Just use ftilt/fsmash instead of bair

"While we're at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U9CZLuV0A. 12 Shuttle loops in this match by my count and none of them are punished."

Is it that hard to understand? SHUTTLE LOOP IS NOT SAFE ON SHIELD. Out of those twelve times he used that move he never hit his shield with it.

 

[Nic64]

Showing single examples doesn't prove me wrong, Nic.

It's more evidence and reasoning than you've ever cared to provide, completely undeserved too as I'd already acknowledged that you're just trolling, but I'm bored as **** today and have nothing better to do for another 2-3 hours lol

 

[Magik0722]

Sure SL is not safe if it is sheilded but noone just throws out SLs. It is used OoS to stop an approach

SL is very similar to Marths UpB as well sure its unsafe on sheild but just throwing it out there is not its purpose

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's more evidence and reasoning than you've ever cared to provide, completely undeserved too as I'd already acknowledged that you're just trolling, but I'm bored as **** today and have nothing better to do for another 2-3 hours lol

Calling me a troll doesn't magically make you right.

Watch all CoT4 videos of teh_spamerer (vs Anther, Dojo etc) and tell me how many times he uses SL overall. Not a lot. He only uses it in MK dittos to punish ...well... shielded Shuttle Loops.

Also that M2K example of him spamming tornado is a dummy argument. You simplay dodged my point. If you call me a troll for that reason you have some work to do yourself.

Edit:

Magik I agree with you. The whole debate is pointless. I'm simply stating 2 things.

1.) It's not MKs best KO move
2.) It's not the best move in the game

Unfortunatley, Nic decided to turn this into a major troll war...

 

[Magik0722]

Oh well what in your opinion is the best move in the game?

 

[PhantomX]

Showing single examples doesn't prove me wrong, Nic.



MK ***** G&W without SL just as hard. Just use ftilt/fsmash instead of bair

"While we're at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55U9CZLuV0A. 12 Shuttle loops in this match by my count and none of them are punished."

Is it that hard to understand? SHUTTLE LOOP IS NOT SAFE ON SHIELD. Out of those twelve times he used that move he never hit his shield with it.

No... he doesn't. You've pretty much cemented yourself with your last slew of posts as someone that doesn't know anything about this game.

It was bad enough that you wrote me off as a non-top level player, after that you continued to shove your foot further and further down your throat.

MK without shuttle loop would be a third of the character he is now. The move is exceedingly versatile and has ridiculous range. Also, to use your own arguments against you, TOP LEVEL MKs won't use that move on shielding opponents, they would do it on reaction to other moves/attempted moves.

FYI, the reason Dojo doesn't use grounded shuttle loop to kill Fiction is b/c Fiction spot dodges a lot, so it's easy to land dsmashes on him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh well what in your opinion is the best move in the game?

I don't think there is one move that can truly be called the single best move. This game has too many "variables" and situations to make such a claim. The best overall move might be bad in a certain situation.

If I had to choose though I'd say Falco's Laser.

Edit:

"It was bad enough that you wrote me off as a non-top level player"

lmfao

Added to my ignore list...

Edit2:

Can't ignore mods huh? Well I'm allergic to ignorance so I just won't read his posts anymore =/

 

[Nic64]

Watch all CoT4 videos of teh_spamerer (vs Anther, Dojo etc) and tell me how many times he uses SL overall. Not a lot. He only uses it in MK dittos to punish ...well... shielded Shuttle Loops.

It's not as useful in the Pikachu matchup, again it's all situational, very little is equally useful against everyone.

Also that M2K example of him spamming tornado is a dummy argument. You simplay dodged my point. If you call me a troll for that reason you have some work to do yourself.

It was a bad argument to begin with, I didn't need to address it honestly because it was a logical fallacy.

I'm simply stating 2 things.

1.) It's not MKs best KO move
2.) It's not the best move in the game

I agree on both points but you're making it out as if it wasn't a very good attack at all when it is extremely good.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I agree on both points but you're making it out as if it wasn't a very good attack at all when it is extremely good.

Fun fact: I never said that it was not a good move. That was your interpretation. I wasmerely trying to make up for the ridiculous arguments of PhantomX/CaliburChamp, who said it's "the best move by far", which is bull.

 

[Galaxy]

People have different playstyles too...so some pro may use SL a lot more than another pro doesn't mean it is good or amazing.

 

[PhantomX]

I don't think there is one move that can truly be called the single best move. This game has too many "variables" and situations to make such a claim. The best overall move might be bad in a certain situation.

If I had to choose though I'd say Falco's Laser.

Edit:

"It was bad enough that you wrote me off as a non-top level player"

lmfao

Added to my ignore list...

Edit2:

Can't ignore mods huh? Well I'm allergic to ignorance so I just won't read his posts anymore =/

That's pretty much impossible. If you were allergic to ignorance you'd be perpetually symptomatic just from very fact that you are yourself.

 

[Magik0722]

I believe it is the best move in the game, if you count both grounded and aerial SL as a single move. It is a powerful KO move followed by a glide attack which is a powerful KO move. So if you attempt to dodge it in the air you can get hit by the glide attack next. It has invincibility frames which is always broken and makes it a stupid OoS option and stops alot of approaches because of it. And then of course there is the gimping aerial move which has a unforgiving angle and ridicously high knock back. I like to think of it as marth doing a UpB then doing a tippered Fair afterwards.

But im not sure its the best by far. GaWs bucket is a close second IMO. although those two moves are by far better then the rest

 

[DanGR]

How can a move with as much speed, range, versatility, knockback, and invincibility as it has not be the best move in the game? When used grounded it eats through everything... and kills. On some stages it's impossible to punish too. T_T

 

[황미영]

Yo Gheb I know you're happy and I'mma let you finish but, MK has one of the best moves of all time!

But seriously, go and face top level MK's yourself before you start talking. It's a lot different when you play them.

 

[PhantomX]

How can a move with as much speed, range, versatility, knockback, and invincibility as it has not be the best move in the game? When used grounded it eats through everything... and kills. On some stages it's impossible to punish too. T_T

Don't even waste your time, DanGR. Are you one of the WC top players, Dojo, M2K, or Ally? No? Then your opinion doesn't matter!

Obviously these blockable lasers that only have a thin hitbox where their animation is are better than a move that covers a huge block of space in front of and above MK!

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can we stop arguing about Shuttle Loop please? This is meant to be a tier list discussion, not a moveset discussion. Whichever way you look at it, MK is the best in the game, end of.

Regarding Wario, where do you think he should be on the tier list? IMO, I can definitely see why he'd be that high up, since he has some really great matchups and all. But since he doesn't seem to have as many people repping him as other top tiers like Diddy Kong, I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped a couple of places, though I reckon he should definitely stay in S Tier.

And even after three and a half months of the tier list being around, seeing Samus over Jigglypuff STILL bugs me.

 

[DanGR]

Don't even waste your time, DanGR. Are you one of the WC top players, Dojo, M2K, or Ally? No? Then your opinion doesn't matter!

Obviously these blockable lasers that only have a thin hitbox where their animation is are better than a move that covers a huge block of space in front of and above MK!

You're right.
What was I thinking.
*facepalm*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I believe it is the best move in the game, if you count both grounded and aerial SL as a single move. It is a powerful KO move followed by a glide attack which is a powerful KO move. So if you attempt to dodge it in the air you can get hit by the glide attack next. It has invincibility frames which is always broken and makes it a stupid OoS option and stops alot of approaches because of it. And then of course there is the gimping aerial move which has a unforgiving angle and ridicously high knock back. I like to think of it as marth doing a UpB then doing a tippered Fair afterwards.

But im not sure its the best by far. GaWs bucket is a close second IMO. although those two moves are by far better then the rest

Glide attack can clash with moves.

Some characters like Lucario can Fair into Dair on MK because of this.

 

[Tien2500]

Can we stop arguing about Shuttle Loop please? This is meant to be a tier list discussion, not a moveset discussion. Whichever way you look at it, MK is the best in the game, end of.

Regarding Wario, where do you think he should be on the tier list? IMO, I can definitely see why he'd be that high up, since he has some really great matchups and all. But since he doesn't seem to have as many people repping him as other top tiers like Diddy Kong, I wouldn't be surprised if he dropped a couple of places, though I reckon he should definitely stay in S Tier.

And even after three and a half months of the tier list being around, seeing Samus over Jigglypuff STILL bugs me.

Wario is a hard character to use and a hard character to fight against so I think his tier placement is kind of hard. His mobility clearly gives him a ton of potential and he's way too heavy to be moving like he does so he has the potential to stay top tier. But there is always the possibility that people will get better at fighting him and he'll drop a bit if he gets more rep.

And I think Samus is better than Jiggly.

 

[smashkng]

The best KO move is Snake's up tilt. Of early kill moves it's Wario's Fart.

Snake's ftilt is also incredibly good (great priority, amazing 21% when fresh, amazing speed, can KO though it's better for rack damage and crazyly long invisible disjointed range in both hits) I think it's better than MK's up b. MK's aerial up b is powerful when close to the blast line, but it's much weaker from farther distances similar to Snake's fsmash making aerial SL it better as gimp move than offensive move.

 

[PhantomX]

Why do people keep considering that shuttle loop's killing you off the side blast zone is a gimp? It's not making it so you can't recover... it's KILLING YOU.

Snake's tilts can't be used in the air just like on the ground, and Snake's tilts are equally unsafe on shield as MK's up B against the good characters... hell, sometimes they're even unsafe on hit if you manage to SDI through the ftilts' first hit. Snake also doesn't have invincibility on his moves. Not to mention grounded shuttle loop AND aerial shuttle loop come out faster than Snake's moves (and beat them).

 

[da K.I.D.]

snakes f tilt cant hit you at the top of the screen. the fact that it has an aerial version and a grounded version that are both completely devastating for entirely different reasons is what makes it rediculous.

to be honest, the only move i think that even compares to SL in terms of overall amazingness is tornado

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Why do people keep considering that shuttle loop's killing you off the side blast zone is a gimp? It's not making it so you can't recover... it's KILLING YOU.

Snake's tilts can't be used in the air just like on the ground, and Snake's tilts are equally unsafe on shield as MK's up B against the good characters... hell, sometimes they're even unsafe on hit if you manage to SDI through the ftilts' first hit. Snake also doesn't have invincibility on his moves. Not to mention grounded shuttle loop AND aerial shuttle loop come out faster than Snake's moves (and beat them).

I absolutely agree with this.

 

[DanGR]

Why do people keep considering that shuttle loop's killing you off the side blast zone is a gimp? It's not making it so you can't recover... it's KILLING YOU.

Snake's tilts can't be used in the air just like on the ground, and Snake's tilts are equally unsafe on shield as MK's up B against the good characters... hell, sometimes they're even unsafe on hit if you manage to SDI through the ftilts' first hit. Snake also doesn't have invincibility on his moves. Not to mention grounded shuttle loop AND aerial shuttle loop come out faster than Snake's moves (and beat them).

You were close.

Snake:
ftilt- hits on frame 4
uptilt- hits on frame 8

MK:
grounded upb- invincibility 5-8, hitbox out on 8
aerial upb- hits on frame 8

edit: uptilt comes out on frame 6. my bad.