The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[SuSa]

"Zelda doesn't suck, it's just.. she sucks in this game"

She has (arguably) the worst projectile in the game, few guarenteed KO's setups (....dtilt?), horrible (to no) approach options, and gets outcamped by basically everyone (hell, get the % lead and run circles around her while shielding Din's.. as Ganon.. you should try it, it's fun)

 

[Nanaki]

I thought decayed ftilt into Usmash was a pretty standard and accepted kill setup for Sheik. Maybe I'm way behind the times or something. Her gimp game is absolutely insane, and Vanish can net some moderately early KO's if you glide it offstage. Fthrow sets up all kinds of destruction.

Sheik is pretty good.

 

[SuSa]

Problems I see with Sheik mains still:

1) Poor at mixing up options
2) Needs more needle camping in some matchups, less in others.
3) STOP USING DTHROW
4) Learn when fthrow actually has followups (I swear, I think at some %'s we have a large frame advantage. O_o I can almost always fair/bair in mid %'s on people... no matter what they do... unless they airdodge, in which they still eat an aerial)

Pointing something out:
5) Vanish gliding is overrated nanaki, you'll actually rarely hit with it - and you can kill yourself trying it.

6) Most Sheik mains suck at reading their opponents. -_- I'm going to be brutally honest here.... You need to be able to read as Sheik...

I'll try to get a lot of friendlies/MM's in with Sheik at Active (I highly doubt MM's as I'll be broke. I might have $1 to start MM's with and I'll try and turn that into $20 lol)

 

[Nanaki]

Problems I see with Sheik mains still:

1) Poor at mixing up options
2) Needs more needle camping in some matchups, less in others.
3) STOP USING DTHROW
4) Learn when fthrow actually has followups (I swear, I think at some %'s we have a large frame advantage. O_o I can almost always fair/bair in mid %'s on people... no matter what they do... unless they airdodge, in which they still eat an aerial)

Pointing something out:
5) Vanish gliding is overrated nanaki, you'll actually rarely hit with it - and you can kill yourself trying it.

6) Most Sheik mains suck at reading their opponents. -_- I'm going to be brutally honest here.... You need to be able to read as Sheik...

I'll try to get a lot of friendlies/MM's in with Sheik at Active (I highly doubt MM's as I'll be broke. I might have $1 to start MM's with and I'll try and turn that into $20 lol)

I'll agree with this.

I wasn't saying Vgliding is always a good idea, I was saying you can net some (relatively for Sheik) early kills with it if you use it wisely.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sheik actually has it better than most characters with regards to the "below" blind spot. FFNair covers it all right.

 

[SuSa]

It covers it, but still doesn't solve it.

Most uairs beat out nair. :/

But she does seem to have it a bit better then Zamus in that regard.

But Zamus doesn't get gimped because she got hit once offstage.

 

[Deleted member]

Susa ill 1$ MM u yoshi vs shiek :D

The thing shiek probably has the most trouble with is air camping, she doesnt have many good options against it, her uair is laggy.

 

[Sucumbio]

2) Her blind spot below her while airborne. Dair.. sucks -_- , although she isn't as screwed as some characters - it still hurts a lot.

This is what keeps her from being anything higher then B tier IMO.

I haven't found tons of use with her Dair, I thought maybe it could be used like Sonic's but it just isn't the same... I've grown fond of fast falling Nair where her Dair would seem appropriate.

I need a personal taunt, "I'm too slow!!!" lol

 

[SuSa]

Susa ill 1$ MM u yoshi vs shiek :D

The thing shiek probably has the most trouble with is air camping, she doesnt have many good options against it, her uair is laggy.

If I don't have the $1 to MM, I want to friendly you at the least.

And since you are the first to offer the MM, if I do happen to have the $1, I'll be sure that you are what it's spent on.
(if I lose)

Also, fair/bair solve what uair doesn't. Fair/bair are disjointed above her by quite some degree.

 

[Deleted member]

Im pretty sure any good air camping character can deal with that without too much trouble no?
MK can just be MK lol and Wario outmaneuvers shiek and does normal dair campy stuff, even though he does get outprioritized, he has better options to bait it, pressure shiek if she stays on the ground, and that.

Those are the main aircamping characters, but like cant falco kill her out of a spike pretty easily cuz of her fall speed, ICs **** her pretty bad, and i would assume that marth beats her solidly with full hop zoning like havok does, and outranging.

I dunno, shes good but in theory she loses a lot =/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Funny thing about Wario and MK, Shiek has grab release to upsmash kills on them.

 

[Tien2500]

I think Sheik is in the right tier. She has an amazing gimp game, a solid projectile, and racks damage very quickly against many opponents. Still though being that light and having that much trouble killing is not a good combination.

Basically I think Sheik's advantages and disadvantages nullify eachother. Her damage racking ability is nullified by her weight and KO ability. Her ability to gimp is nullifed by here ability to get gimped. She's capable of doing more but then again most characters are. When the smoke clears I think she'll be towards the higher end of C tier.

If people can find better ways to use Zelda and Sheik together then maybe the two of them can be B tier especially since Zelda helps cover some of Sheik's really bad matchups..

Funny thing about Wario and MK, Shiek has grab release to upsmash kills on them.

Yes but those two characters, Wario in particular, are very hard to grab. A ton of characters can grab release Wario into KO moves and it doesn't hurt him that much.

 

[SuSa]

Zelda can take Falco for long enough to avoid the CG ****. Also Sheik vs Falco is equally stupid. We get chainspiked (SDI tech it), he gets ftilt locked to usmash KO'd easily.

Bair works great for anti-air. Due to her light weight, tornado isn't that bad, and she can punish MK (wait...what?) for a lot of things he does.

Wario... until I face someone like DMG, I have no comment. I play no good Wario's. :x Haven't played Fiction yet.... so...yeah...

Her killing isn't THAT bad. Also if you can safely wrack damage up, who cares when you KO?

Also lately I feel Zelda+Sheik should be considered 1 character. Down-B... you can freely select between the two. If you go Sheik and someone CP's IC's... just use down-B and you go from a "lol" matchup, to a more winnable one... it's not like down-B doesn't exist. >_>

I know PT is literally forced to switch... but I don't see that as such a huge difference :/

 

[PhantomX]

Sheiks are sooooooooooooo fun/easy to gimp, lol.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Yo Phantom i hear you're like the **** now XD

 

[DMG]

Shiek pretty easy to gimp.

Also, "aircamping" Shiek isn't as viable as it looks on paper. Her ground speed usually makes up for her ok air speed.

And yeah PX is also higher on our PR list that me. Even if I don't deserve to be that low, its nice that he's starting to get more recognition for his abilities. Before everyone would just talk Me and say stuff like "Texas has... more than 1 Wario?", but now people even Cheer for him on the Livestream and favor his "non gay" playstyle over mine lol

 

[Tien2500]

Her killing isn't THAT bad. Also if you can safely wrack damage up, who cares when you KO?

Ummm I think most people care. I don't think Brawl is the type of game where you can really stay 100% safe for too long (in most matchups). So the longer you go without getting the kill the more hits you wind up trading and all.

Also lately I feel Zelda+Sheik should be considered 1 character. Down-B... you can freely select between the two. If you go Sheik and someone CP's IC's... just use down-B and you go from a "lol" matchup, to a more winnable one... it's not like down-B doesn't exist. >_>

I know PT is literally forced to switch... but I don't see that as such a huge difference :/

The problem is that Zelda is only marginally more useful than she was in Melee. The only matchups I think most people would want Zelda in are Climbers and Dedede. Other than that Sheik is better.

You may want to switch to Zelda to KO but that most likely means your opponent is off the stage and I think in most cases you'd want to go for the gimp if you're in that situation. Maybe some Sheila main will show some of the potential they have together but until they do it kind of makes sense to keep them apart.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ummm I think most people care. I don't think Brawl is the type of game where you can really stay 100% safe for too long (in most matchups). So the longer you go without getting the kill the more hits you wind up trading and all.

this.

its a very painful truth that you only really see the effects of in game. Peach, Sheik, Sonic, and Samus, would all be drastically better if the only had one really good KO move.

And I realise that peach has fair, and up smash, sonic has f smash and bair, sheik has up smash and up b, and samus has down tilt, but those arent GOOD killing moves, I mean something that is strong, is reasonably quick and has a decent range.

 

[Browny]

Fair/bair are disjointed above her by quite some degree.

Prove it?

I dont see any hit/hurtbox on the sheik boards. just because an attack may look disjointed, doesnt mean it actually is.

 

[PhantomX]

Yo Phantom i hear you're like the **** now XD

I'm alright. I still favor shenanigans over gayness and patience too much to be the ****

And yeah PX is also higher on our PR list that me. Even if I don't deserve to be that low, its nice that he's starting to get more recognition for his abilities. Before everyone would just talk Me and say stuff like "Texas has... more than 1 Wario?", but now people even Cheer for him on the Livestream and favor his "non gay" playstyle over mine lol

Just gotta poop on HOBO 19, is all. PRs are super variable and not important, if you're good you're good.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The problem is that Zelda is only marginally more useful than she was in Melee. The only matchups I think most people would want Zelda in are Climbers and Dedede. Other than that Sheik is better.

You may want to switch to Zelda to KO but that most likely means your opponent is off the stage and I think in most cases you'd want to go for the gimp if you're in that situation. Maybe some Sheila main will show some of the potential they have together but until they do it kind of makes sense to keep them apart.

Luigi, Jigglypuff, and Kirby it is better to go Zelda.

From what I hear.

 

[Tien2500]

Prove it?

I dont see any hit/hurtbox on the sheik boards. just because an attack may look disjointed, doesnt mean it actually is.

Go to training mode set the computer to jump and see for yourself. They both hit above her head. The vertical range isn't great but its something.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That is a flawed way of measuring it.
Freeze frame her attacks.

 

[Tien2500]

That is a flawed way of measuring it.
Freeze frame her attacks.

If you want an exact measurement thats obviously not the best way to do it. But if you want a general idea and don't want to wait for someone to actually do all the testing/uploading training mode works.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah because it takes forever to tap that Z button to go frame by frame and then snapshot the frame it hits.

A claim isnt worth making if you wont go the lengths to prove it, plus knowing how much of a disjoint it has helps.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheiks need to use their jabs A LOT more. They're broken.

Edit: Not as broken as Falco or Luigi but still ridiculously good...

 

[Dark.Pch]

So your argument is that people will play gay and/or switch characters to handle a certain matchup.

First of all, you can't assume that everyone will play gay in the sense of play to win. That ignores Reflex's statement. When trying to win, you may find different strategies and tactics with a character more viable than standard options, which may include being gay, but does not necessarily mean you'll have to play gay. Understand that there are people with a similar attachment to their character like you have, and strive to overcome the walls that they have when playing in tournament. They take pride in not counterpicking and going the whole tournament with just their main character. That's fine. That's respectable. However, there will be some people that play a character that has a significant advantage over yours. If you counterpick that character to win a tournament (or at least do better than you were previously in a lost match), that's not going to completely dampen your learning and playing experience. Once again, you can still learn and get better at certain matchups through friendlies.

On a side note, you also can't necessarily say that people who play gay are just interested in winning and getting money. You can't say that people like DMG don't just simply have an infatuation with their playstyle. Have you SEEN this man talk about how much he likes playing like a ******?

You missed my entire point. Point is with all that I said, Metagames won't advance for most characters. Cause everyone is just gonna play like this. This is what people will focus on more than anything. One one can BS their way out of this. People know this is true. People just wanna win no matter what.

 

[gm jack]

Sheiks need to use their jabs A LOT more. They're broken.

Edit: Not as broken as Falco or Luigi but still ridiculously good...

A lot of us tend to use it as a very good panic move, due to the speed and range. The problem arises due to the Ftilt, which is a fantastic move. Ftilt simply sets up for more things, and needs to be kept decayed in order to combo truely to Usmash.

Sheik has KO options. People seem to be forgetting Her Bair and Nair. Takes higher percents than most kill moves, but sweet spotted they can kill at very reasonable percents. Near the edge. Sounds situational, but Sheik has the speed and combo ability to set them up fairly easily.

And of course, her DACUS reaches through a lot of platforms, and it also just broken ranged. Not guaranteed, but if you aren't expecting it, few have the reaction time to deal with it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sheik is like CF and ZSS, these are characters built around combos in a game with no hitstun. Heh

I know, I'm so profound today and have a lot of important things to say.

 

[gm jack]

Sheik is like CF and ZSS, these are characters built around combos in a game with no hitstun. Heh

I know, I'm so profound today and have a lot of important things to say.

Sheik is fast enough to true combo everyone. Low knockback and quick startup and cool down makes her one of the best combo-ers in the game. ZSS and CF lack this balance in the given environment.

As for people who do well with her Armada places 17th at Genesis, and was the 2nd highest non-high tier to place, below a Toon Link. Not quite as obvious as Reflex's placings, but when you consider the size of the tournament, that is very high for someone placed so low.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I didn't say Sheik couldn't combo or that it made her bad. ZSS does pretty well given that she has the same "problem." She also manages to combo pretty well.

All I really know about Sheik is that like every ZSS main seconds her.

 

[-Mars-]

If I b-reverse a needle so I have access to bair and still have my double jump......I rarely get gimped. Fast falling actually help sometimes lol believe it or not I just have to remind myself not to be predictable and recover low everytime. Vanish can cancel so landing on stage isn't a problem everytime although still gets me punished by characters that are quick enough. If you don't grab the ledge she has no problems getting back.

Her lightweight is irritating. Lol like I had a Snake player at 175% last stock and then I died to a C4 at 80% lmao.

The frames on her moves are ridiculous.

Maybe other players like switching to Zelda for Pikachu? Not me I do worse lmao.

I think the fact that she hard-counters some decent characters, has pretty much a CG on most of the cast and has legitimate setups into her usmash makes her good. then she has a lot of other small tricks that I haven't mastered yet that I need to in order to become good. that and the fact that I suck doesn't help.

 

[smashkng]

Sheik is like CF and ZSS, these are characters built around combos in a game with no hitstun. Heh

I know, I'm so profound today and have a lot of important things to say.

And also Sonic, who wants to combo in a no-hitstun game. All of his KO moves are extremely hard to land.

 

[Umby]

You missed my entire point. Point is with all that I said, Metagames won't advance for most characters. Cause everyone is just gonna play like this. This is what people will focus on more than anything. One one can BS their way out of this. People know this is true. People just wanna win no matter what.

Your point doesn't make sense. You're generalizing everyone's playstyle and making it the cause for staling the metagame. And you keep missing the fact that not everyone tries to play MK or a campy Wario in order to win. A lot of people go the extra length with their character to overcome the barriers in the metagame and relay their information and experience to others.

If your mind set is that people will only play the game a certain way win, then that influences a stale in the metagame itself. A great number of people that think that way give up on trying to find new or overlooked things with their character, and that keeps the metagame from advancing.

You have no true insight to what the metagame will look like in the future, near or far. Your claim about it may be right (we'll have to see) but your basis and reasoning hold very little water.

 

[Tien2500]

I think the fact that she hard-counters some decent characters, has pretty much a CG on most of the cast and has legitimate setups into her usmash makes her good. then she has a lot of other small tricks that I haven't mastered yet that I need to in order to become good. that and the fact that I suck doesn't help.

Who exactly does Sheik hard counter? Only character I can think of is Fox and shutting down Fox isn't really anything special. Lol.

 

[smashkng]

Who exactly does Sheik hard counter? Only character I can think of is Fox and shutting down Fox isn't really anything special. Lol.

Ganon. 95-5 matchup. Just get the lead and stall with Chain Jacket for the rest of the match. Ganon can't do anything to prevent Sheik to stall with Chain.

 

[Tien2500]

Ganon. 95-5 matchup. Just get the lead and stall with Chain Jacket for the rest of the match. Ganon can't do anything to prevent Sheik to stall with Chain.

But he said decent characters.

 

[Vermy]

Samus is a 95-5 matchup vs Ganondorf, but apparantly that doesn't count for much considering her position on the list.

 

[Inaphyt]

Ivysaur can do that with Razor Leaf in order to stop edgeguards with her unstoppable B-Air.

Why is Ivysaur a SHE? Did you have a look ; )? did you?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

30 characters hard counter Ganondorf, 4 characters have a small advantage over him, and 2 characters have it it slightly in their favor.

Having an solid advantage over Ganon doesn't mean ANYTHING in this game. It doesn't make a character better than they are, it doesn't have any influence on the tier list, it means absolutely nothing. All it says is Ganondorf should be in a tier below F.