The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[PokemonMasterIRL]

There are other stages you can Zero Switch on, PS1 is one of the best.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

what is zero switching

 

[Umby]

what is zero switching

It's a method of using Pokemon Switch on moving platforms so that you can move immediately after you switch.

 

[da K.I.D.]

what is all this bullcrap im hearing about developing wolfs metagame, hes a basic straight forward character.

what is there to develop?

how do you even know that hes not as developed as he can be already?

Where is the basis for these statements?

Wolf is just like most of the characters in the game, if you have good prediction and reading skills, and you can space really really well, you can win with him. nothing really about wolf is al that complecated.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Characters like wolf, G&W and Lucario you really can't do much with at all. You can't improve or mix it up with them cause of how they are. people don't tend to realize this. really when other characters are advancing more than they are.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Characters like wolf, G&W and Lucario you really can't do much with at all. You can't improve or mix it up with them cause of how they are. people don't tend to realize this. really when other characters are advancing more than they are.

If their bases are good enough, though, it won't matter much. Dedede hasn't improved in ages, and his game revolves around shield dashing, B-Air, and grabbing. He's still A-Tier, at least.

 

[Nanaki]

If their bases are good enough, though, it won't matter much. Dedede hasn't improved in ages, and his game revolves around shield dashing, B-Air, and grabbing. He's still A-Tier, at least.

This is where a common misconception seems to spring up with these tier list discussions.

'They haven't advanced, therefore they should drop'.

If they haven't advanced, but are still overall better and more viable than the people below them, there's no reason for them to drop.

 

[Dark.Pch]

People are going on about these characters metagames. The truth is, they can not go any further. These characters are basic/simple. Not much do them. They can be where they are on the tier list. But people need to understand, you really can't do much when it comes to improving how they can be used.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People are going on about these characters metagames. The truth is, they can not go any further. These characters are basic/simple. Not much do them. They can be where they are on the tier list. But people need to understand, you really can't do much when it comes to improving how they can be used.

What if everyone is doing it wrong?

Say, Wolf players haven't maximized abuse of their Down-B invincibility frames, and it allows them to camp much better than originally thought. Such a "discovery" would certainly help the metagame, even if it's just the better use of an already-used tactic.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario's learned about B-reversal.

Using Aura sphere charing to turn Lucario around in the air. This lets him use Bair against characters like Marth and Mk who otherwise would edgeguard his fair.

We're trying to make a chart of exactly what percentage moves do with aura so we can figure out how to use it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario has been advancing a bit, it's just that nobody bothers to put them up. ;_;
The issue is half the lucarios on the boards don't really understand what the tool is for, like dtilt and ftilt lol, the other half that actually do well in tourneys don't really bother with the boards much lol.
BROVERSAL!?! for example, although flashy, has dramatically improved AS's chances of hitting because of its ability to make it less telegraphed, plus is maximizing time that you'd normally doing a plain old empty hop with charging AS, which often you don't get the time to do more openly. Couple that with being able to reverse your momentum without much commitment with disjointed aerials/tilts, and it's pretty good stuff when you start looking more into it.
Lucarios really need to get smarter lol, I saw people change to become momentously better just because they worked on being a better lucario player instead of looking into plain stats on him.
It's underestimated because everyone else looks at other character's b-reversals, which are either situational like snakes or they're low tier and people don't give a hoot for it. It's really more effective as far as my research on it goes, and it improved my lucario mixup game tons better + my camp game (even if he's only going to be camping people with terrible/no projectiles).
We're also rediscussing rising dair, pivot grab, and more setups.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Using Aura sphere charing to turn Lucario around in the air. This lets him use Bair against characters like Marth and Mk who otherwise would edgeguard his fair.
.

Ivysaur can do that with Razor Leaf in order to stop edgeguards with her unstoppable B-Air.

 

[Kewkky]

What if everyone is doing it wrong?

QFT. I dare not say it cuz I haven't even gone to any USA tourney, let alone a big one... But these are my exact thoughts on a few people's perception of some characters' metagames.

 

[Dark.Pch]

What if everyone is doing it wrong?

Say, Wolf players haven't maximized abuse of their Down-B invincibility frames, and it allows them to camp much better than originally thought. Such a "discovery" would certainly help the metagame, even if it's just the better use of an already-used tactic.

And Just how would you know that he is doing it wrong? How would people know Peach for what she really is and stop under rating her? How people know how beast lucas and Ness really are. How would we know there are characters that can get at high tiers more than people know?

Nothing would be discovered and nobody would know who is doing it WRONG as you say. Reason for that cause people worry too much about high tiers and playing gay/running the clock. That's all I been hearing and all people seem to wanna do to win. That is all that matters. So how in the world would one know just what character can do what with this nonsense going on in this game. When it comes to money, you think people care about things like this? No, it is about playing gay and ticking the enemy off. that is all it has come down to just to get that money.

That is more important now then anything else.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ivysaur can do that with Razor Leaf in order to stop edgeguards with her unstoppable B-Air.

Ike's SAFs > Ivy's Bair.

Granted, if she was that far down in the first place, she would be dead. >_>

 

[zeldspazz]

That's all I been hearing and all people seem to wanna do to win. That is all that matters. So how in the world would one know just what character can do what with this nonsense going on in this game. When it comes to money, you think people care about things like this? No, it is about playing gay and ticking the enemy off. that is all it has come down to just to get that money.

That is more important now then anything else.

Isnt this the point of a competitive scene though? To win?

 

[Umby]

And Just how would you know that he is doing it wrong? How would people know Peach for what she really is and stop under rating her? How people know how beast lucas and Ness really are. How would we know there are characters that can get at high tiers more than people know?

Nothing would be discovered and nobody would know who is doing it WRONG as you say. Reason for that cause people worry too much about high tiers and playing gay/running the clock. That's all I been hearing and all people seem to wanna do to win. That is all that matters. So how in the world would one know just what character can do what with this nonsense going on in this game. When it comes to money, you think people care about things like this? No, it is about playing gay and ticking the enemy off. that is all it has come down to just to get that money.

That is more important now then anything else.

Just because these factors prevent us from knowing whether or not we are "doing it wrong" right now, doesn't mean there aren't other factors that allow is to discover untapped potential. It's not a question of "How hard is it to find" as opposed to "Could it be found?"

"There known knowns and known unknowns, but there are also unknown UNKOWNS: Things we don't know we don't know!"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

And Just how would you know that he is doing it wrong? How would people know Peach for what she really is and stop under rating her? How people know how beast lucas and Ness really are. How would we know there are characters that can get at high tiers more than people know?

Nothing would be discovered and nobody would know who is doing it WRONG as you say. Reason for that cause people worry too much about high tiers and playing gay/running the clock. That's all I been hearing and all people seem to wanna do to win. That is all that matters. So how in the world would one know just what character can do what with this nonsense going on in this game. When it comes to money, you think people care about things like this? No, it is about playing gay and ticking the enemy off. that is all it has come down to just to get that money.

That is more important now then anything else.

If I started playing a character and I'm doing significantly better in tournaments with my strategy than everyone else (This...seems familiar...), there's a good chance that what I'm doing differently is "doing it right". That goes for any character.

It isn't a question about mindsets. "Playing to win" often means discovering unique tricks and styles of play that allows you to become a better player. That can very well be learning how to "play gayer" than ever before, but it can also be a new means of approach, or a clever edgeguarding tactic.

Wanting to be the best doesn't mean that the metagame will stagnate--In fact, it usually helps it flourish.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"There known knowns and known unknowns, but there are also unknown UNKOWNS: Things we don't know we don't know!"

Great quote. Also, a **** great show.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Isnt this the point of a competitive scene though? To win?

Which takes or if not, takes way too much time to improve characters meta games or find stuf out for that matter.

Just because these factors prevent us from knowing whether or not we are "doing it wrong" right now, doesn't mean there aren't other factors that allow is to discover untapped potential. It's not a question of "How hard is it to find" as opposed to "Could it be found?"

"There known knowns and known unknowns, but there are also unknown UNKOWNS: Things we don't know we don't know!"

Here is an example. I could say that Peach can't beat olimar. But how would i trully find out if Peach could beat olimar when I counterpick luigi on him. And the same with everyone else who plays her. Just how the heck would I know this at the highest levels of play. People wanna win and take the easy road out to get closer to that cash.

Something about a character could be so obvious and right in thier face, but yet to care cause of how people play now.

"Plank"

"You are not playing gay enough"

" Camp him till the very end non stop"

"Run the timer"

This is the world or brawl. Not trying to but stuff to the test to really find stuff out cause people are just greddy and don't give a damm.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

people are just greddy and don't give a damm.

Welcome to humanity.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is the world or brawl. Not trying to but stuff to the test to really find stuff out cause people are just greddy and don't give a damm.

Wanting money and enjoying the spirit of competition are two very different things.

You can't speak for everyone.

Don't worry--There are lots of people that are willing to try and "make it work" when faced with a bad matchup. You're not special.

 

[Umby]

Here is an example. I could say that Peach can't beat olimar. But how would i trully find out if Peach could beat olimar when I counterpick luigi on him.

If you really cared to learn, then there's nothing keeping you from exploring the matchup to its fullest. If you're in trouble in tournament, then you've got no time for such things if you're aiming to win. Fortunately, we have friendlies. The great thing about friendlies is that you use it for practice for tournament competition and learning matchups.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I try to play to win and have fun, if I can do both then I'm not disappointing myself.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If I started playing a character and I'm doing significantly better in tournaments with my strategy than everyone else (This...seems familiar...), there's a good chance that what I'm doing differently is "doing it right". That goes for any character.

It isn't a question about mindsets. "Playing to win" often means discovering unique tricks and styles of play that allows you to become a better player. That can very well be learning how to "play gayer" than ever before, but it can also be a new means of approach, or a clever edgeguarding tactic.

Wanting to be the best doesn't mean that the metagame will stagnate--In fact, it usually helps it flourish.

How can that be when people will just pick the easy/gay way to win? I choose not to play gay. i won't do that. I'm not gonna learn anything nor would it make me a better player. I'm not gonna be learning other stuff about my character that needs to be learned by NOW to help boost her metagame and have her doing better in tournaments.

If I was to do and this crap, I not be as good vs meta as I am now and find out all this crap Peach can do to him while others are crying about meta and switching Peach for someone else. if you actually wanna learn stuff about your character and improve how they are, then you have to learn to actually go out there in the field with them and put it to the test. Wether you win fail so many times. You at least learn something. That's how I do it. I refuse to run away to another character against top players/characters. I won't learn anything. Reason why I don't is why I learned and know so much about my character. I now have been going nearly even with top players now and I was never able to do this before with this character. I'm getting closer and learned more stuff than before. Matches are less troublesome and I learn some sick stuff (like how Peach can kill better than before)

wanting money and playing to win will lead the the basic, boring crap you see all the time. that in no way will help develop anything at all. Just piss people off to a point they won't ive a damm about this game anymore. And when more do that, it will be hardly to improve a character cause they just wont care anymore and have 2 options:

1-Play this typical game like everyone else to get money and get known as a PLAYER too feel goo about your self and feel like somebody in this community

2- Leave this game and go back to true games that take lots of skills and thinking and not waste money or time on this.

 

[Palpi]

I didn't understand one sentence of that -----^

 

[Kewkky]

^ I only read this part...

If I was to do and this crap, I not be as good vs meta as I am now and find out all this crap Peach can do to him while others are crying about meta and switching Peach for someone else.

I hate it when people say MK's one of Kirby's hardest matchups. As if I'm wrong and what I'm doing all the time isn't actually working... It's Kirby's hardes matchup IF you misspace and fall for everything. It's actually WAAAY easier than Snake.

 

[Palpi]

I think Kirby can handle an aggressive MK fairly well.

A campy MK is another story.

 

[Umby]

How can that be when people will just pick the easy/gay way to win? I choose not to play gay. i won't do that. I'm not gonna learn anything nor would it make me a better player. I'm not gonna be learning other stuff about my character that needs to be learned by NOW to help boost her metagame and have her doing better in tournaments.

If I was to do and this crap, I not be as good vs meta as I am now and find out all this crap Peach can do to him while others are crying about meta and switching Peach for someone else. if you actually wanna learn stuff about your character and improve how they are, then you have to learn to actually go out there in the field with them and put it to the test. Wether you win fail so many times. You at least learn something. That's how I do it. I refuse to run away to another character against top players/characters. I won't learn anything. Reason why I don't is why I learned and know so much about my character. I now have been going nearly even with top players now and I was never able to do this before with this character. I'm getting closer and learned more stuff than before. Matches are less troublesome and I learn some sick stuff (like how Peach can kill better than before)

wanting money and playing to win will lead the the basic, boring crap you see all the time. that in no way will help develop anything at all. Just piss people off to a point they won't ive a damm about this game anymore. And when more do that, it will be hardly to improve a character cause they just wont care anymore and have 2 options:

1-Play this typical game like everyone else to get money and get known as a PLAYER too feel goo about your self and feel like somebody in this community

2- Leave this game and go back to true games that take lots of skills and thinking and not waste money or time on this.

So your argument is that people will play gay and/or switch characters to handle a certain matchup.

First of all, you can't assume that everyone will play gay in the sense of play to win. That ignores Reflex's statement. When trying to win, you may find different strategies and tactics with a character more viable than standard options, which may include being gay, but does not necessarily mean you'll have to play gay. Understand that there are people with a similar attachment to their character like you have, and strive to overcome the walls that they have when playing in tournament. They take pride in not counterpicking and going the whole tournament with just their main character. That's fine. That's respectable. However, there will be some people that play a character that has a significant advantage over yours. If you counterpick that character to win a tournament (or at least do better than you were previously in a lost match), that's not going to completely dampen your learning and playing experience. Once again, you can still learn and get better at certain matchups through friendlies.

On a side note, you also can't necessarily say that people who play gay are just interested in winning and getting money. You can't say that people like DMG don't just simply have an infatuation with their playstyle. Have you SEEN this man talk about how much he likes playing like a ******?

 

[Nestec]

Dark.Pch

Sorry dude, you talk too much. About the same old **** too. Every. Time.

Oh, and btw...IMO...

Characters with hardly any recent discussion: Yoshi, Samus, Pikachu, ROB, Sheik...

Anybody wanna talk about these guys? I'm fine with any discussions actually, as long as it's unrelated to PT, Peach, or Reflex. XP

 

[Umby]

I'd personally like to hear more about Sheik. I have really mixed thoughts about him...

her...

?

 

[Nanaki]

I'd personally like to hear more about Sheik. I have really mixed thoughts about him...

her...

?

Her.

Sheik is...I hate to say it, but underrated.

God I hate that word.

 

[Sucumbio]

yes, I'm glad to see sheik moving up, though I'm surprised zelda's simultaneously moved down so much more in contrast...

I'd personally like to hear more about Sheik. I have really mixed thoughts about him...

her...

?

Jinx.

 

[SuSa]

I said ages ago Sheik is easily B tier, mid or highish. I felt underneath Zamus.

Zelda... sucks... she's basically Sheik's fallback for a few matchups *coughs IC's*

I said I'd be going Sheik in tournament, but I jumped the gun. I'm nowhere confidant enough with her yet, I still make stupid mistakes, and my spacing still needs a bit of work.

That being said, I used her once against a G&W on Brinstar.... yeah for dying from any smash at like.. 60% with perfect DI? :/

He wasn't supposed to be allowed to switch from DDD -_- I didn't notice til halfway into the match however..

 

[Nestec]

Do Sheiks still have trouble getting kills?
Or have they found a reliable setup into Usmash?

Hmm, on an unrelated note, sometimes I wonder what it would be like to main other characters...

 

[Umby]

Jinx.

Hey, Jinx is clearly a white man with black face.

I said ages ago Sheik is easily B tier, mid or highish. I felt underneath Zamus.

Mind elaborating for me sir?

 

[kingcobra9]

other than grab realease dacus no sheiks don't have reliable setups to kills
sheik has:
-grab realease dacus
-dacus
-gimp action
-downsmash
-vanish edgeguard
-vanish kills

 

[Sucumbio]

He wasn't supposed to be allowed to switch from DDD -_- I didn't notice til halfway into the match however..

DOH. heh I've been meaning to ask how the Sheik thing turned out, but it was such a short ladder I didn't even participate.

IDK I don't want to get discouraged using sheik but her weight is so light it's frankly disheartening, you really have to be SO on your game, at least with some of the characters you can afford to make a minor bad decision (or even a whopping giant one depending) but Sheik is just asking to get punished. Drill down tactics would pay off more if she had better KO power I guess, but I'm still confident she can whoop ***.

But Zelda, tho, well yeah, I guess she does suck, she's like totally telegraphed, stagnant in movement, but her KO power is alluring, and why I continue to flirt with using her when Sheik fails.

 

[SuSa]

People say Falco has a good mixup game, which is why he is so good.

Sheik has a very similiar mixup game, no chaingrab, but fthrow is amazing, same with grab release >dacus/needles/regrab on some of the cast. (MK included)

Sheik (from my experience) only has two limiting factors.

1) Recovery - for many characters (lol MK/D3) they can use (dair/sourspotted bair respectfully) to gimp Sheik. (I just gave two examples...) however, saving second jump and smart use of your chain normally saves you from the gimp (aka: she isn't hopeless). But, recovering on stage sucks. Gets you punished easily. This is bad, but doesn't ruin her.

2) Her blind spot below her while airborne. Dair.. sucks -_- , although she isn't as screwed as some characters - it still hurts a lot.

This is what keeps her from being anything higher then B tier IMO.


That being said, whoever says she has issues killing needs to watch better Sheiks. Her damage racking game is simply amazing. Getting your opponent into kill %'s shouldn't be an issue, landing the kill CAN be - but it doesn't matter if you can safely wrack up damage to the point where anything will KO. (Many of her moves are safe on block)

Ftilt is a reliable KO setup at proper %'s and decay rates. It's why I CP Brinstar. Gotta love ftilting the stage for proper decay.

Also down-B is a godsend for KO's.

tl;dr
Mixup game as good as Falco's, amazing follow up game, lack-luster recovery, blind spot below. Borderline viable (viable, but much harder then anyone above her...lol)

 

[Nestec]

Lol, Zelda doesn't really suck, her playstyle just really doesn't work out in this game...
Or at least, they've given her a contradictory character design...

Maybe it's the new hair.