The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Red Arremer]

Well he certainly is Top 5, the exact position is arguable. Not only does he have his CG, but also his lasers, shine, an incredible DACUS, evil CG to spikes. Not to mention his incredible maneuverbility and overall good matchups (with some exceptions of course).

His only weakness is basically his horrendously bad recovery and his lack of good kill moves outside of the DACUS.

 

[Barge]

Not to mention lazar spam, which goes through like, anything o_<
Falcos Dacus is too good.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont think falcos reflector is that good...

i dont know which iteration of the game it was but falco reminds me a lot of paul phoenix in one of teh tekken games, In that he was stupidly good despite the fact that his moveset out side of about 5 moves was pretty useless.

Thats how i feel about falco, hes not that great but he has 4 or 5 stupidly abusable moves that make him top tier. Its pretty much dair, bair, d throw, laser and side b

 

[Umby]

I think it's interesting how Falco actually has a number of good moves aside from the abused ones, but they get overshadowed due to the fact. Nair, uair, and utilt are all solid moves.

 

[Adrostos]

grah @ my freinds using the tier list for johns >_< cuz i main DDD, marth, and G&W
xD
to be fair in my case though my marth kinda sucks and i picked all three before ever really paying attention to the list and i also main jiggly :D
and ive got a very unique D3, dont like the chaingrab game...so i play with a very different metagame
its cool when people get so used to a certain metagame that they play in a way to matchup well against that char and then that person has a retardedly differeant metagame >_<
imo its weird that my fave counter pick stage vs alot of chars when using d3 is rainbow cruise >_<

jiggs manly-er then gdorf and falcon according to the tier list :D yay for jig mainers >_<

and as for falco. i personaly do not like the way hes used because of wat was just stated.
i dont like the idea of a char being able to earn high tier spotlight just cuz he has a couple of good moves
(i dont like his shine btw )
but this is kinda just a lil bias for me i suppose since my play style is so uncompatable with falco so idk
hes an ok char but i think he dos not deserve his spot as third highest
both DDD and G&W have way more useful moves in there arsenal then falco does in my oppinon
but w/e



Jiggs manlyer then both gdorf and falcon acording to the list? :D yay for jigg mainers

 

[DanGR]

His jab is the best in the game. I swear.

I see Falco as a character with a lot of options. In any given situation, he always has many different ways to deal with it. He's also got a superb camping game, and a great close combat game when characters get past the camping.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

His jab is the best in the game. I swear.

IT PUSHES PEOPLE AFTER IT'S OVER. If a character or Wario's bike is just sitting in front of the attack, it gets pushed away when he stops. ;_;

NO PUNISHMENT

 

[DanGR]

IT PUSHES PEOPLE AFTER IT'S OVER. If a character or Wario's bike is just sitting in front of the attack, it gets pushed away when he stops. ;_;

NO PUNISHMENT

EXACTLY! That and it's 2 frames, infinite, has fantastic priority and range. Everything any character should want.

 

[Deathcarter]

EXACTLY! That and it's 2 frames, infinite, has fantastic priority and range. Everything any character should want.

Please, such a puny jab is no match for the aerial prowess and manliness of the Jiggernaut. DI'ing into Falco for a rest interrupt FTW.

Now Melee Ganondorf, THAT was a jab. lol good times.

 

[Vorguen]

Brawl Ganondorf really stinks. I remember in the Melee days the best local player around here was a Ganon main. It makes sense that nobody really wants to play him anymore.

 

[choknater]

It takes a LOT of effort, but he can be kinda unexpectedly decent, sorta.

hahah.

 

[Deathcarter]

Brawl Ganondorf really stinks. I remember in the Melee days the best local player around here was a Ganon main. It makes sense that nobody really wants to play him anymore.

Well, at least he has a decent matchup against G&W and Kirby. Thats.....something.

Anyway, do you guys beleive Shiek is a better character than Zelda? Because I honestly think so. Especially since Shiek has better matchups against the top tiers than Zelda (Except DDD, Diddy, and Snake but Shiek still goes even with the King and Diddy IMO).

 

[_Phloat_]

I think Shiek is a much better character than Zelda.

 

[dean.]

Chain-Choking is based on prediction

No it's not, it's based on having fast enough reflexes to react to your opponent's get-up option to follow up with another Flame Choke.

 

[Darknid]

Chain Choking is based on reflexes but it's even harder to execute than Bowser's CG. Like anything involved with Ganon, only the dedicated will pick it up.

As for Falco..How about when he needs to kill me? CG to spike has about 0 chance of killing me(DK), because if I'm low enough for him to be able to spike me out of CG, then I can just jump and up B and I can actually go over the stage for a lagless landing. If I'm too high I will just interrupt him with up B. It's pathetically overrated. After the CG is over..what does he do? He probably won't land another spike against my recovery and his only decent kill move is F smash(Fresh U smash survived at 150%, fresh Dsmash survived at 140% but could be higher if I broke). Avoid the F smash and never die. If your opponent is living to 200% while you die at 50-60%, you are at a huge disadvantage. In fact, the only good thing I see about Falco is his laser.

 

[Darknid]

Marth is should probaly be Top 5.

His only bad matchups are Metaknight, Snake, and DDD, and they are not really all that bad.

There really is no character like that cept Metaknight or Wario, with almost no bad matchups.


Of course I am getting this from the Marth boards, but they did discuss it with the others.

There's also DK.

When all of your bad matchups are top/high tier, you don't deserve top 5.

 

[Rykoshet]

When all of your bad matchups are top/high tier, you don't deserve top 5.

You might want to reword that or hell even think again, the best characters should ONLY have bad matchups that are top/high tier. It means that it requires a certain character level to even touch you. And that's only speaking in black and white blanket terms, try not making dumb generalizations. Marth is rather blatantly one of the top 5 characters in the game. He spanks all of the niche top/high tier fights, and holds his own against the 3 most imposing characters in the game, 3 of 4 characters that have an advantage on him.

Coming from the east coast I'm honestly still surprised places even entertain the idea of allowing standing infinites.

Falco's close up game needs to be embraced but the truth of the matter is as time progresses people are going to really start to exploit the fact that he doesnt kill very well at all. Even as an Ike player I find myself significantly outliving my falco opponents nowadays.

 

[Darknid]

You might want to reword that or hell even think again, the best characters should ONLY have bad matchups that are top/high tier. It means that it requires a certain character level to even touch you. And that's only speaking in black and white blanket terms, try not making dumb generalizations. Marth is rather blatantly one of the top 5 characters in the game. He spanks all of the niche top/high tier fights, and holds his own against the 3 most imposing characters in the game, 3 of 4 characters that have an advantage on him.

Coming from the east coast I'm honestly still surprised places even entertain the idea of allowing standing infinites.

Falco's close up game needs to be embraced but the truth of the matter is as time progresses people are going to really start to exploit the fact that he doesnt kill very well at all. Even as an Ike player I find myself significantly outliving my falco opponents nowadays.

Well think about it..If all of your bad matchups are top tier, and most people choose characters based on who's god/high tier, then you'll be at a disadvantage most of the time. Look at the high tiers..Most of them are about 50-50 with each other. Wario, Snake, MK, D3, GnW, Falco, Diddy etc. Who would you take out to put Marth in, anyway? My list is

1. MK
2. Snake
3. Diddy
4. D3
5. Wario
6. Falco
7. GnW

and so on..Who would you take out to replace with Marth? Honestly.

Also..If the infinite is banned, DK could definitely make it up there. If the CG is banned too, D3 is crap tbh. What character other than MK/Snake has an advantage over Snake, GnW, holds his own vs MK, even with Falco, probably beats D3 if infinite is banned, beats Marth, 50-50 with Oli, ROB, Diddy(slight disadvantage), Kirby and Pika, beats ICs and beats Lucario?

What other character has a resume of that quality?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Game and Watch is a merely-average character. Perhaps ever-so-slightly more than that.

I just figured I'd say that.

 

[Rykoshet]

Marth beats falco, beats game and watch, beats wario, beats diddy, and has workable disadvantages against d3 snake and mk. Dedede and snake have more disadvantages than marth does. Even if you ignore that fact last fact he at the VERY LEAST should be fourth.

The CG shouldnt be banned, but it SHOULD have to be a running CG. East coast just flat out bans standing and small step infinites which is why I find it odd that it's considered normal elsewhere.

 

[§leepy God]

♫ Wait, do Marth really beat Falco? I think that's the other way around since Falco is annoying with his laser gun and stuff. When I look at it, Marth may not have enough bad match up's, but he doesn't have a lot of good one's like the characters he got above him on the tier list. That's my way of viewing. ☼

 

[Darknid]

Marth beats falco, beats game and watch, beats wario, beats diddy, and has workable disadvantages against d3 snake and mk. Dedede and snake have more disadvantages than marth does. Even if you ignore that fact last fact he at the VERY LEAST should be fourth.

The CG shouldnt be banned, but it SHOULD have to be a running CG. East coast just flat out bans standing and small step infinites which is why I find it odd that it's considered normal elsewhere.

Not sure that Marth beats Diddy. Even with Marth's advantages, he would probably have to be significantly more skilled than the Diddy to beat him. How does Snake have more disadvantages than Marth? Let's see, there's D3..and DK..and that's it. What are his other bad matchups? Workable disadvantages? How is this a selling point? Sounds like a nice way to say "gets beaten by" D3, Snake and MK. Obviously DK's creds are better than Marth's, as are a lot of other high tiers. You still haven't answered the question..Who would you take out to place Marth into the top 5? or even the top 7? Or, if the infinite is banned, the top 8?

♫ Wait, do Marth really beat Falco? I think that's the other way around since Falco is annoying with his laser gun and stuff. When I look at it, Marth may not have enough bad match up's, but he doesn't have a lot of good one's like the characters he got above him on the tier list. That's my way of viewing. ☼

I also don't understand this. Marth doesn't even outrange Falco on the ground(sad, huh) with anything but shieldbreaker.. and how does he deal with lasers? Plus Marth is light and Falco should have no problems killing. I'm sure Marth can combo Falco and maybe gimp him but other than that idk what he's got on Falco or GnW for that matter.

 

[Deathcarter]

G&W is not really average, he just has no facets of his game that allow the player to enhance their gameplay, aka something like dashdancing, but character specific. G&W has abusable traits, but nothing to add a new dimension to his player's game, with the possible exception of tech chasing (though it can be teched/roll buffered and thus not easy to follow through). G&W really does not have anything to add to a players style of play, leading to G&Ws with similar playstyles ,and as a result, similar counters. I hope that makes sense.

The characters that are moving up seem to be the characters that allow for the development of different, similarly effective, styles of play, to counteract different obstacles. Characters like Diddy Kong, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, Sonic, Yoshi, and Peach look to be the characters with the highest chance to noticably rise due to this facet of their moveset as opposed to characters who happen to be placed incorrectly (Luigi/Pokemon Trainer) or have discovered an exploit in certain matchups against higher characters (Pikachu). This is why I think G&W will fall.

But he is still too exceptional to be average. Hell, Bowser is too exceptional to be average.

EDIT: this is a reply to Reflex if it is not obvious.

 

[Red Arremer]

G&W is not really average, he just has no facets of his game that allow the player to enhance their gameplay, aka something like dashdancing, but character specific. G&W has abusable traits, but nothing to add a new dimension to his player's game

So his gameplay is literally flat and 2-dimensional, eh? ;P

 

[Darknid]

G&W is not really average, he just has no facets of his game that allow the player to enhance their gameplay, aka something like dashdancing, but character specific. G&W has abusable traits, but nothing to add a new dimension to his player's game, with the possible exception of tech chasing (though it can be teched/roll buffered and thus not easy to follow through). G&W really does not have anything to add to a players style of play, leading to G&Ws with similar playstyles ,and as a result, similar counters. I hope that makes sense.

The characters that are moving up seem to be the characters that allow for the development of different, similarly effective, styles of play, to counteract different obstacles. Characters like Diddy Kong, Wario, Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, Sonic, Yoshi, and Peach look to be the characters with the highest chance to noticably rise due to this facet of their moveset as opposed to characters who happen to be placed incorrectly (Luigi/Pokemon Trainer) or have discovered an exploit in certain matchups against higher characters (Pikachu). This is why I think G&W will fall.

But he is still too exceptional to be average. Hell, Bowser is too exceptional to be average.

EDIT: this is a reply to Reflex if it is not obvious.

Yeah, I had a tougher time learning how to urinate than I did learning how to play GnW. What you're describing is the very reason I believe Snake will one day be the top character.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well, Falcos CG is near useless against Marth since of UPB.

How does Falco outrange Marth without lazers?


Also Snake still has trouble with other people like ROB.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not sure that Marth beats Diddy. Even with Marth's advantages, he would probably have to be significantly more skilled than the Diddy to beat him.

Marth has an advantage primarily because of the fact that like every other character, he zones Diddy. Diddy really has no safe options and it can be hard to get out the bananas to really work into anything. Marth has incredible mobility and speed in the air.
Marth does have a small advantage against Diddy.

I also don't understand this. Marth doesn't even outrange Falco on the ground(sad, huh) with anything but shieldbreaker.. and how does he deal with lasers? Plus Marth is light and Falco should have no problems killing. I'm sure Marth can combo Falco and maybe gimp him but other than that idk what he's got on Falco or GnW for that matter.

Wait what?
You MUST be joking right?
marth outranges falco badly.

jab length=marth
ftilt=marth
dtilt=marth
utilt=marth
fsmash=marth
dsmash=marth
Usmash=marth ( in terms of vertical otherwise falco has better area of effect)
Fair=marth
dair=marth
uair=marth
nair=marrth
bair=marth

The only thing that Falco has is his specials which he cannot use safely.
You are dealing with a character who has high mobility in the air and speed.
And once he ge sin close then what? Falco has a tough time doing anything.

 

[Darknid]

Marth has an advantage primarily because of the fact that like every other character, he zones Diddy. Diddy really has no safe options and it can be hard to get out the bananas to really work into anything. Marth has incredible mobility and speed in the air.
Marth does have a small advantage against Diddy.


Wait what?
You MUST be joking right?
marth outranges falco badly.

jab length=marth
ftilt=marth
dtilt=marth
utilt=marth
fsmash=marth
dsmash=marth
Usmash=marth ( in terms of vertical otherwise falco has better area of effect)
Fair=marth
dair=marth
uair=marth
nair=marrth
bair=marth

The only thing that Falco has is his specials which he cannot use safely.
You are dealing with a character who has high mobility in the air and speed.
And once he ge sin close then what? Falco has a tough time doing anything.

Well, how will he get in close? That's problem number one. As for range, shine can keep marth at bay, even if it does have to be used carefully. Also, their F smashes have about the same range, and Falco's F tilt is about equal to Marth's F smash. Up close, Falco wins. Falco boxes a lot better than Marth. If Marth is staying out of Falco's CQC range, Falco can retreat and camp. I'm sure Marth spaces better, but his range is extremely overrated. But I'm sure Marth does have the advantage against Falco hand-to-hand, he definitely whoops him in the air. My main problem with calling this matchup a Marth advantage is Falco's ability to camp. What if Falco simply camps the hell out of Marth until Marth gets close, then uses illusion to gain more distance?

and I believe you still haven't answered my question..

 

[bigman40]

I say Yoshi should be in bottom tier when next tier list comes out. Who agrees with me?

 

[Darknid]

Well, Falcos CG is near useless against Marth since of UPB.

How does Falco outrange Marth without lazers?


Also Snake still has trouble with other people like ROB.

Falco's shine outranges Marth and his F tilt contends with a lot of Marth's moves. I was wrong, he doesn't space better, but he has his tools to keep Marth away. Also, SHDL really ****s with aerial approaches.

Snake vs ROB? I'd hardly call that a disadvantage. Then again, I really look down upon characters that can't get the kill. Snake can survive fresh ROB aerials at 130(depending on position). Hell, I've SDI'd them to the opposite blast zone to survive to ******** percents. ROB's F smash and D smash are weak..U smash is really hard to land against a Snake as they avoid that situation at all costs against any character. In terms of ground game, ROB has surprisingly effective boxing/CQC abilities, but I don't think that contends with Snake's 'tarded tilts. The camping game is a problem, though. But idk if that's a ROB advantage. Seems pretty even.

I say Yoshi should be in bottom tier when next tier list comes out. Who agrees with me?

I say you don't know what you're talking about. Let me guess, you also think Bowser belongs in bottom tier?

 

[bigman40]

I say you don't know what you're talking about. Let me guess, you also think Bowser belongs in bottom tier?

Yep.

10yepz

 

[Frown]

I say Yoshi should be in bottom tier when next tier list comes out. Who agrees with me?

Totally agreed. He has no kill moves, crap recovery, no range etc.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, how will he get in close? That's problem number one. As for range, shine can keep marth at bay, even if it does have to be used carefully.

Marth has high air speed.
He also has good mobility.
Those two things are something characters like Metaknight do not have. This aids him in his ability to approach.
Shine is not going t keep marth away.
You fire a shine and marth blocks it or dodges it, and he gets into your safe zone and starts dicng you up.
lasers are the only thing falco has, and considering the fact that he cant kill Marth without sticking himself in range of marths sword first, that should be a red flag, especially when falco has predictable kill moves.

Also, their F smashes have about the same range,

About=/=same
Falco's fsmash has less range.
Especially when you factor into account that Falco needs to hit with his wings to KO.
Aything else is a sour spot

and Falco's F tilt is about equal to Marth's F smash.

No it is not.
Do explain as to why you are trying to say Falco's Ftilt is anywhere near the range of Marth's Fsmash?
It simply is not.

Up close, Falco wins.[/quote[
Falco cannot get upclose without being in range of marth.
let alone that marth has a 1 frame dragon punch.

Falco boxes a lot better than Marth. If Marth is staying out of Falco's CQC range, Falco can retreat and camp.

Wait what?
Did you just say if marth stays out of Falco's range Flaco can camp him?
OKay dude, go and play the game and the compare the range of their attacks.
Marth cnan perform his attacks while Falco has to struggle to get in close to attack.
marth can swing all day and smack Falco, but Falco has to get in even closer in order for him to land ana ttack on marth.

Falco's Ftilt cannot reach marth, while marth's ftilt can reach Falco.

I'm sure Marth spaces better, but his range is extremely overrated.

How is it overrated?
How do you overrate range?
Its obvious that marth outranges Falco (whereas you are trying to say he doesn't).
This is not even an argument. Play the game, look at the pictures.
Marth>Falco in terms of range.

Aything that Falco tries to perform becomes unsafe due to that range.
Thats why he has an advantage, how do you hit someone who is zoning you without the risk of beig smacked away?

But I'm sure Marth does have the advantage against Falco hand-to-hand, he definitely whoops him in the air. My main problem with calling this matchup a Marth advantage is Falco's ability to camp. What if Falco simply camps the hell out of Marth until Marth gets close, then uses illusion to gain more distance?

Its rather tough to explain.
Marth has good mobility and his good air speed to aid him.
No Falco user is going to use a grounded laser.
The problem though is that he cannot move while using his laser. He is stationary while he is firing in the air.
So if marth jumps and uses a rising air dodge, he would bypass both lasers and continue to approach Falco and be capable of moving back in case Falco fires off a shine.

Falco cannot simply illusion away from Marth.
Why? Again because Marth is so agile. If falco illusions and Marth isnt hit, Marth can close that distance very quickly at which point, Falco cannot simply illusion again because Marth is too close for him to illusion safely.

and I believe you still haven't answered my question..

I believe I had and you simply did not read it and the fact that you are comparing Falco's Ftilt in terms of range to Marth's Fsmash is laughable.

Falco's shine outranges Marth

Too bad its very slow and if it misses or is shielded Falco is going to get his *** kicked.

ts like firing a grounded laser. Even if you hit it doesnt smack the opponent very far if at all.

and his F tilt contends with a lot of Marth's moves.

No it doesn't, you'll eat a Dtilt for trying to Ftilt Marth, let alone it is outranged. You'll be Ftilting air while he can smack you around.

Also, SHDL really ****s with aerial approaches.

marth=/= kirby/Metaknight
He has good speed and mobility .

 

[Red Arremer]

Yep.

10yepz

Explain on Bowser plz.

 

[Deleted member]

Hes slow he loses to everyone he has no good matchups all his moves suck he always gets gimped.

Bottom tier

 

[M.K]

Hes slow he loses to everyone he has no good matchups all his moves suck he always gets gimped.

Bottom tier

1) King Dedede is slow, there goes THAT logic.

2) He does not have bad match-ups against everyone, in fact, his Meta-Knight match-up is on par or better than most of the others. His other match-ups are slightly worse, but not terribly worse than the rest of the cast.

3) You are an idiot, do you just take the normal generalizations and believe them? You are obviously wrong on most, if not all, of these points.

4) Learn to not be so stupid. Your points are invalid, unsupported, and just plain wrong.

5) You are fail tier.

 

[Nul]

Even CF beats out Yoshi, except that Bair, but that's it.

Bottom Tier > CF > Yoshi

 

[bigman40]

Explain on Bowser plz.

He's decent when you look at him, but when you get used to his style (which shouldn't take too long), you'll be able to figure out what he's gonna be up to. He's gonna be susceptible to spam since he's like, the biggest target in the century. His CG isn't gonna get very far either. When your opponent starts paying attention, they'll just spam to force you to approach, then knock you either off the map, or away so they can spam from the other side. Sorry, but he has to keep too much momentum to be a contest.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Marth does Beat Diddy. He's one of the "tough matchups" for him, if I've been reading the Diddy boards right. I don't get it but I never play really good Marth's.

 

[Veelhelm]

Deleted the content.

-Chaco