The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[Rykoshet]

Bullet seed honestly just *****. If vine whip had even the slightest horizontal movement like olimar's up B did, PT's biggest weakness would probably be wearing squirtle out.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bullet seed honestly just *****. If vine whip had even the slightest horizontal movement like olimar's up B did, PT's biggest weakness would probably be wearing rock smash out.

Fix'd. If Charizard was his own character in Brawl, he'd be a secondary for that solo reason.

 

[GwJ]

Fix'd. If Charizard was his own character in Brawl, he'd be a secondary for that solo reason.

Completely agreed.

 

[DanGR]

The problem is that really no one plays Bowser. =/
Even one the better Bowser players (Vex) doesn't use him in tournament. One of the reasons is Dedede having infected pretty much every tournament and we all know what De3 does to him.

But in general Bowser is a bad character everyone underestimates... do you think he is slow? I'm sure you do. Did you know his MU with MK is even? I'm sure you didn't.

Everyone doesn't underrate him. A lot do. I don't personally. I thought about picking him up a while back, but there's too many DDDs in the south.

He's not slow. >_> His only major problem imo is being really big.

Well, the secret to this whole tier placement thing is that this game is actually really balanced, and balanced to the point where most of the individual character placements are negligible.

It's like N64 Smash, only to a lesser extent; it's possible to do a whole lot with characters that are generally considered low tier if the player is excellent with them.

Do you think it's more balanced than Melee? O_o

edit: this thread is moving way too fast.

 

[Rykoshet]

Seriously, in a game full of jabs and pummels and what the hell not, stale moves is never something you should be completely worried about (that's in response to your hypothetical). In reality if I had to choose between a fatigued squirtle or a fatigued charizard, I'd probably go for the charizard since if you don't gimp someone with a tired squirtle, they're just not dying.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Do you think it's more balanced than Melee? O_o

Yes. By a fair amount, at least.

Also, in other news, about half a year ago, I used to say "Rock Smash is my favorite character." <3

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yes. By a fair amount, at least.

.....

*blink*


Well then......thats a new one on me......

Er, seeing as you claim you like to use characters with potential: any thoughts on picking up Ike and abusing his grab-releases which are rarely used? XD

 

[Red Arremer]

He's sadly faster then Ike outside of Jab, Utilt, and Bair IIRC. ;_;

Heh. Bowser has a very similar speed to Snake. While one has a faster move there, the other one is quicker there. But it pretty much comes down to about the same mobility and speed.

I've played around with Bowser a bit, while he's nicely similar to Ike in some regards: he doesn't help me find a good secondary to fix up Ike's issues. Falcon doesn't really solve anything (I just plain old like using him), and it would be sad if Ike was my best answer to D3. >_<

Bowser is honestly a great choice if you want to deal with MK outside of using MK himself. Hardly anyone plays Bowser, so you have the "surprise" on your side, as well. As I already mentioned, Bowser's only really horrible MUs would be De3 and ICs. Other than that, almost everything is 40:60 to even/advantageous. If you find something to deal with De3, I'm pretty sure using Bowser as secondary is a good way complementing Ike.

Maybe I'll try him again later, I'm working mostly on G&W currently. Need to stop using Fairs like Ike and use Bair instead.

Haha, I have that when using Wario a lot. Wario's mobility makes me play him a little bit like my GaW, and so I use NAir and BAir a lot with Wario. XD

 

[Nidtendofreak]

True enough about the MK part. But in SA, only one person uses MK, and he uses secondaries a fair bit. I have to worry more about Sonics then MKs. (Espy cheats, I swear he's hacking all the Wiis to make Sonic faster). But ya, I'll poke around with Bowser more now that I have actual tournament experience and know what I'm looking for now. Of course, if I pick up Bowser I'll have to resist the urge to Bowsercide very stock...

And it is very awkward when you play one character like another. SHFairs with G&W = lol landing lag.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

.....Er, seeing as you claim you like to use characters with potential: any thoughts on picking up Ike and abusing his grab-releases which are rarely used? XD

I've been playing a bit of Ike lately. I think his raw power and abusable safe moves, such as F-Air and jab/grab shenanigans all add up to a rather solid character. I do enjoy playing as Ike.

Also, in other news, I believe that Captain Falcon's movement and recovery already put him above Link and Ganondorf. Combined with his fairly-nice range, I think he's above Jigglypuff, as well. At least he can do stuff without automatically getting outranged or shieldgrabbed.

I do think there's untapped potential in Captain Falcon. Maybe not a ton, but he's not the undisputed worst, at least.

 

[bigman40]

lol Reflex, play Yoshi and tell me what you think XD

 

[Browny]

Olimar is simply overrated.

Wow I wish that was true. I also wish MK/Snake were overrated

 

[BentoBox]

The Olimar hype died down last year. He's not ranking fantastically well and you, djbrowny, remain the only one to keep claiming he's underrated. Also, olimar is in no way better than Marth.

 

[Darknid]

I might as well post my newest tier list again. BTW Dan, I took another look at the list and I saw some other things I didn't agree with. Like Zelda's placement. >_> Way too low.

S Tier- Meta Knight, Snake
A Tier- Falco, King Dedede, Wario, (Diddy Kong, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch)
B Tier- (R.O.B., Pikachu), Ice Climbers, (Olimar, Lucario), Kirby, (Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus)
C Tier- (Luigi, Peach), Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, (Pit, Toon Link), Zelda, Bowser
D Tier- Fox, Sheik, (Ike, Sonic), (Ness, Mario), Yoshi, PT, Samus, Lucas
E Tier- Link, Jigglypuff, (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Really close placements are defined by ()s.

EDIT: Actually, yes I can, just like if I said "Diddy's Banana's are useless" you would be able to tell I was clueless about how Diddy Kong works.

-Wario can stay away from grabs easily: one of the few, if not only guy who can. He's that flipping good in the air.
-DK has lots of other big things going for him however. Strong AND fast? His match-ups outside of D3 are good as well, but it's the D3 match-up that won't let him move up.
-Luigi has more going for him then Mario, hence his higher placement then Mario. He would be higher however if it wasn't for D3's infinite. And he's not as easy to grab due to how much he slides around on the ground, so that helps a bit.
-Ike's recovery: Olimar has bad recovery, look where he is, but yes it's keeping them both down some spots. If he had a better recovery, he would be above Sheik without a doubt, maybe a spot higher then that. That's not a killer weakness. It's a very noticeable one yes, but it can be worked around. For example, on BF and SV, Ike can recover by sliding up the slope with aether, making it harder to gimp. He can also go to Pirate Ship or Mario Circuit. It's a weakness that is easily fixed with stage choice. You can't really work around grab release gayness.

I'll admit, Wario is hard to grab, hut come on.. If a killer weakness does a character in, how is DK so high? There isn't a player alive who couldn't learn enough about D3 to infinite a DK and simply go D3 vs any and all DKs he faces.

As for Luigi vs Mario..Well, that's debatable, but Luigi isn't just above Mario, he's FAR above Mario despite the fact that D3 can infinite him. Also, Luigi could be the EASIEST character to grab as every single move he has with the exception of fireball can be punished with a grab. Ask a Luigi if it's hard for a D3 to shieldgrab them, really.. With Wario, it's kind of understandable, but with Weegee you will get grabbed, and that will be a stock. That's a killer weakness, yet Luigi is still pretty high.

Now you're right, Ike's recovery isn't a weakness that falls even close to the category of being infinite'd by D3 or Wario/EB boys' grab release problems but it's still a very big weakness and in this game, almost all of the high tiers have great recoveries, while Ike's is very easy to gimp. His up B used to scare me away, but now I know how to deal with it every time, and a WOP can really destroy him. Look at Link and Mario, look at where they are..Now look at DK, Luigi, and Wario and tell me that grab release/infinite susceptibility affects tier placement more than a piss-poor recovery.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'll admit, Wario is hard to grab, hut come on.. If a killer weakness does a character in, how is DK so high? There isn't a player alive who couldn't learn enough about D3 to infinite a DK and simply go D3 vs any and all DKs he faces.

That's a character specific weakness, wario's weakness is universal, it's a bad comparison to make. Furthermore, Ike's recovery is far from as bad as the ones you're comparing them to.

 

[Darknid]

That's a character specific weakness, wario's weakness is universal, it's a bad comparison to make. Furthermore, Ike's recovery is far from as bad as the ones you're comparing them to.

er..what? The comparison between Wario and DK's weaknesses is irrelevant. I'm using them to point out that a killer weakness does not affect tier placement as much as a crappy recovery.

Also, Ike's recovery is worse than Mario's, but better than Link's. Ike has a grand total of two options, both of which are completely predictable, and stoppable. As for his quick draw..if I'm WOPing him he's probably gonna hit me with it, sending me back to the stage as he falls to his death. As for his up B I usually see it coming because most Ikes do that very low so they grab the edge, and first off you can just edgehog but if they are too high for that you can also use your best aerial to hit him under the stage, where he is helpless. At least with Mario he can stay in the air for a bit with his cape and hit you with fireballs as he's recovering, and Link can throw bombs and boomerangs(All Links DI up because of his recovery). Mario has a much better recovery than Ike. The only danger in facing Ike's recovery is if it hits you with that weak spike, but the problem with that is most characters that are high on the tier list have great recoveries and can easily come back from that weak spike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

DK has a recovery that is barely better then Ike's. He's even more predictable as he can only recover in one direction. Mario can stall yes, but in the end of the day he's going to be recovering in one direction: Up. It's marginally better then Ike's, not this large amount better you seem to believe. Edgehogging as a recovery weakness is not a unique issue. If the character doesn't have multiple jumps, or an amazing recovery like ROB, Pit, or MK, edgehogging can screw them over.

As for recovering from an aetherspike:

MK - obviously he can get back.
Snake - Cypher = Dair food. C4 isn't going to help much here for getting past a spike attempt. I'm not even sure if he could pull it out in time.
Falco - LOL GG. He's dead.
D3 - Depends on how many jumps he has left. If he has to superjump, he's very likely to get punished, specially since he can't AC on the way up and has to be on the way down and canceled if he doesn't want landing lag on the stage. But still likely to make it back on.
Wario - Corkscrew doesn't AC = Dair food. If he has his DJ though he has a good chance of making it back between that and the Bike Jump (assuming access to bike jump). Waft obviously works as well.
Diddy Kong - Risky but doable. There is enough time to SHdair him after grabbing the ledge. I'd rather just get back on stage though so I don't risk a stage spike.
Marth - He's safe.
G&W - He's safe.
ROB - lol not happening unless he was out of fuel.
Pikachu - He probably has to use Up B twice, and at slight angles due to the fact it can't be the exact same direction twice, but he's probably safe.
ICs - Probably safe, unless it was a solo climber.
Olimar - Dead.
Lucario - Depends if he can reach onto the stage or not. If not, he's dead by just staying on the ledge.
Kirby - Probably safe.
DK - Most likely dead.
ZSS - A gamble, I'd say likely safe.
Luigi - Predictable, probably dead if he uses Nado, still very good chance of being dead if he uses Up B unless he was at low %s.
Peach - I'd say most likely dead.
Zelda - Varies on her % damage and where she appears.
Sheik - See above except more risky.
Wolf - lol dead.
Pit - Should be able to stay clear of Ike on the way up, but a small bit of risk evolved.
Toon Link - Should make it back.
Bowser - Dead
Fox - lol dead.
Ike - lol aetherciding each other constantly until one dies from being at a higher %s.
Sonic - Should make it back.
Ness - Fairly gimpable.
Mario - Depends on the % damage, as in how far he has to travel with Up B. Probably going to make it back.
Yoshi - DJ = Safe. No DJ = dead.
Samus - Risky.
Squirtle - Depends on the angle.
Charizard - Good chance of being safe.
Ivy - Most likely dead
Lucas - Good chance of making it back.
Link - Have fun with those there iron boots.
Jigglypuff - Safe
Ganon - Probably dead.
Falcon - Probably dead.


Basically what it comes down to: the aether spike itself doesn't kill much, but it sets up very bad situations for a lot of characters assuming Ike grabbed the ledge and didn't fall to his death, during which case he can quite often capitalize on the said bad situation for the opponent. Obviously how much damage matters as it dictates how far they will fall, but you should get a general picture. Being aetherspike'd = bad for you, good for Ike.

 

[Darknid]

DK has a recovery that is barely better then Ike's. He's even more predictable as he can only recover in one direction. Mario can stall yes, but in the end of the day he's going to be recovering in one direction: Up. It's marginally better then Ike's, not this large amount better you seem to believe. Edgehogging as a recovery weakness is not a unique issue. If the character doesn't have multiple jumps, or an amazing recovery like ROB, Pit, or MK, edgehogging can screw them over.

As for recovering from an aetherspike:

MK - obviously he can get back.
Snake - Cypher = Dair food. C4 isn't going to help much here for getting past a spike attempt. I'm not even sure if he could pull it out in time.
Falco - LOL GG. He's dead.
D3 - Depends on how many jumps he has left. If he has to superjump, he's very likely to get punished, specially since he can't AC on the way up and has to be on the way down and canceled if he doesn't want landing lag on the stage. But still likely to make it back on.
Wario - Corkscrew doesn't AC = Dair food. If he has his DJ though he has a good chance of making it back between that and the Bike Jump (assuming access to bike jump). Waft obviously works as well.
Diddy Kong - Risky but doable. There is enough time to SHdair him after grabbing the ledge. I'd rather just get back on stage though so I don't risk a stage spike.
Marth - He's safe.
G&W - He's safe.
ROB - lol not happening unless he was out of fuel.
Pikachu - He probably has to use Up B twice, and at slight angles due to the fact it can't be the exact same direction twice, but he's probably safe.
ICs - Probably safe, unless it was a solo climber.
Olimar - Dead.
Lucario - Depends if he can reach onto the stage or not. If not, he's dead by just staying on the ledge.
Kirby - Probably safe.
DK - Most likely dead.
ZSS - A gamble, I'd say likely safe.
Luigi - Predictable, probably dead if he uses Nado, still very good chance of being dead if he uses Up B unless he was at low %s.
Peach - I'd say most likely dead.
Zelda - Varies on her % damage and where she appears.
Sheik - See above except more risky.
Wolf - lol dead.
Pit - Should be able to stay clear of Ike on the way up, but a small bit of risk evolved.
Toon Link - Should make it back.
Bowser - Dead
Fox - lol dead.
Ike - lol aetherciding each other constantly until one dies from being at a higher %s.
Sonic - Should make it back.
Ness - Fairly gimpable.
Mario - Depends on the % damage, as in how far he has to travel with Up B. Probably going to make it back.
Yoshi - DJ = Safe. No DJ = dead.
Samus - Risky.
Squirtle - Depends on the angle.
Charizard - Good chance of being safe.
Ivy - Most likely dead
Lucas - Good chance of making it back.
Link - Have fun with those there iron boots.
Jigglypuff - Safe
Ganon - Probably dead.
Falcon - Probably dead.


Basically what it comes down to: the aether spike itself doesn't kill much, but it sets up very bad situations for a lot of characters assuming Ike grabbed the ledge and didn't fall to his death, during which case he can quite often capitalize on the said bad situation for the opponent. Obviously how much damage matters as it dictates how far they will fall, but you should get a general picture. Being aetherspike'd = bad for you, good for Ike.

Are you kidding me? DK's recovery is leagues above Ike's. That's a ridiculous statement. We are discussing a character's recovery, not their recovery moves. Thing about DK is his recovery is even harder to mess with than Ike's and he recovers the same way every time, yet you can't stop it. Also, Fox, Falco, Ganon, Link and Falcon can all easily survive aetherspikes, but Link will never meet you there and Ganon would probably bair you to your death. You do realize that even with two different recovery moves, Ike is even more predictable than Mario? Hell Mario, simply by use of his cape and aerial agility, could cover the horizontal distance that Ike does with his side B, without putting himself at risk. How many DKs do you honestly see having trouble recovering? Hell, Ike can even be gale guarded..he's like one of two characters that can be. His recovery is gar-*****

 

[.Marik]

Donkey Kong's recovery>Ike's recovery.

The horizontal angle it covers is amazing. Donkey Kong's will most likely make it back to stage with the correct use of a jump and UpB.

Ike's... seems risky a lot of the time. Easy to Dair spike Ike.

And Yoshi mainers egg throw before using our second jump, for those exact reasons. So you people don't spike us when we can avoid it.

 

[Darknid]

not only that, but it's nearly impossible to edge guard as it lasts long enough to hit enemies.

 

[PieDisliker]

After seeing Dog Latin play, I feel that Ness should be moved up to D. He's that awesome. xD

 

[Darknid]

we can't all be dog latin, sir

 

[Nidtendofreak]

DK's leagues above Ike's?

Is this some kind of joke? You're a bit late for April Fools. DK's recovery is a bit above Ike's, but not by much.

You can indeed stop DK's recovery, and fairly easily. It's EXTREMELY Linear, just like *gasp* Ike's. Linear + not super fast like Marth's/Mario's = very punishable. Which means anyone with a quick, someone disjointed aerial can just bash back DK repeatedly until he dies or they mess up on their end. Or just chuck a projectile as long as it doesn't hit during the 3 frames of invincibility.

Fox, Falco, Ganon, etc are Aetherspike bait, assuming they aren't at like 0% damage. If they can't make it back with their 2nd jump, they are dead. Firefox/Firebird have too much start up time and don't move fast enough. Just regrab the ledge, seeing as they will be going mostly vertically. Same basic idea with Ganon's, except you might get hit by final sweep.

And it's not like Ike is D3 when it comes to horizontal movement speed in the air. Being tied with Toon Link defiantly isn't bad. Right about smack dab middle. And he doesn't fall like a brick. Link, Fox etc do. He's on the faster side vertically yes, no doubt about it, but not that far down.

 

[GwJ]

I think it just depends on who you're playing against. Others players punish Ike's and DK's recoveries differently. While I think DK is a cut above Ike, others will have an easier time punishing DK (Mario) than punishing Ike's.

 

[Darknid]

DK's leagues above Ike's?

Is this some kind of joke? You're a bit late for April Fools. DK's recovery is a bit above Ike's, but not by much.

You can indeed stop DK's recovery, and fairly easily. It's EXTREMELY Linear, just like *gasp* Ike's. Linear + not super fast like Marth's/Mario's = very punishable. Which means anyone with a quick, someone disjointed aerial can just bash back DK repeatedly until he dies or they mess up on their end. Or just chuck a projectile as long as it doesn't hit during the 3 frames of invincibility.

Fox, Falco, Ganon, etc are Aetherspike bait, assuming they aren't at like 0% damage. If they can't make it back with their 2nd jump, they are dead. Firefox/Firebird have too much start up time and don't move fast enough. Just regrab the ledge, seeing as they will be going mostly vertically. Same basic idea with Ganon's, except you might get hit by final sweep.

And it's not like Ike is D3 when it comes to horizontal movement speed in the air. Being tied with Toon Link defiantly isn't bad. Right about smack dab middle. And he doesn't fall like a brick. Link, Fox etc do. He's on the faster side vertically yes, no doubt about it, but not that far down.

That's funny, you know, what you're saying. It's funny because if you go and watch a DK match you won't see his recovery being messed with, except maybe by PK fire or something but even that is doubtful. DK's recovery is easily one of the best in the game, because he almost always recovers. Snake, D3, Diddy, Marth and a lot of other high tiers have recoveries that are very easy to mess with, but DK's definitely isn't. Now, Ike on the other hand, well he's just as predictable as DK and if he ends up having to use aether, he's going to eat a bair. He has no good way to grab the ledge before I kill him, while DK can afford to **** around offstage. Ike must recover immediately, he cannot stall with a side B(DK's side B allows you to turn around and approach the stage with bairs), he cannot afford to do anything but recover, and unless he's in the right position, he can't even do that. He has to be close to the stage to use aether but if he is, I'm going to be popping him out of it. He has to charge his side B to use it from any respectable distance and I will be watching for him to do it in the first place, in that case I can just jump in front of him or bair him. DK's recovery is great, while Ike's is crap. You can theory craft your way around anything in a debate, dude, but when you watch the games and watch DK recover it's a different story.

As for Fox, he will always make it back. He has a very high double jump and firefox or whatever takes him a long distance. He will probably go well over the stage. Falco also has a decent DJ, and Ganon will most likely take you down with him if he doesn't latch onto you. But this is merely a small consequence of messing with Ike's aether..and it rarely happens because it's clear where Ike will be using aether and it's easy to just bair or fair him depending on your character. Unless you're facing Link or something, chances are you will be gimped if they use this method.

How do you determine a good recovery? The distance it covers? The speed of the actual recovery move? Well, I determine it by rate of success, and very few beat DK there. Ike sure as **** doesn't.

 

[Deathcarter]

That's funny, you know, what you're saying. It's funny because if you go and watch a DK match you won't see his recovery being messed with, except maybe by PK fire or something but even that is doubtful. DK's recovery is easily one of the best in the game, because he almost always recovers. Snake, D3, Diddy, Marth and a lot of other high tiers have recoveries that are very easy to mess with, but DK's definitely isn't. Now, Ike on the other hand, well he's just as predictable as DK and if he ends up having to use aether, he's going to eat a bair. He has no good way to grab the ledge before I kill him, while DK can afford to **** around offstage. Ike must recover immediately, he cannot stall with a side B(DK's side B allows you to turn around and approach the stage with bairs), he cannot afford to do anything but recover, and unless he's in the right position, he can't even do that. He has to be close to the stage to use aether but if he is, I'm going to be popping him out of it. He has to charge his side B to use it from any respectable distance and I will be watching for him to do it in the first place, in that case I can just jump in front of him or bair him. DK's recovery is great, while Ike's is crap. You can theory craft your way around anything in a debate, dude, but when you watch the games and watch DK recover it's a different story.

As for Fox, he will always make it back. He has a very high double jump and firefox or whatever takes him a long distance. He will probably go well over the stage. Falco also has a decent DJ, and Ganon will most likely take you down with him if he doesn't latch onto you. But this is merely a small consequence of messing with Ike's aether..and it rarely happens because it's clear where Ike will be using aether and it's easy to just bair or fair him depending on your character. Unless you're facing Link or something, chances are you will be gimped if they use this method.

How do you determine a good recovery? The distance it covers? The speed of the actual recovery move? Well, I determine it by rate of success, and very few beat DK there. Ike sure as **** doesn't.

Dude, DK's recovery is not that good. Anyboy who is somewhat proficient at edgeguarding can gimp DK. DK's recovery has nothing on MK's dair, DDD's bair, R.O.B.'s everything, G&W's fair, Mario's cape, Kirby/Jiggs/MK's multiple jumps, etc. All you need is a quick projectile or a high priority/ranged/disjointed attack to beat DK's recovery; Over half of the roster has something like that. It is better than Ike's recovery, but not by leagues like you claim.

And honestly, I think Ike, Zelda, Shiek, Sonic, Yoshi, Mario, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, and maybe even Lucas are in the same tier. They all look more close to each other than they do to Fox/Bowser/Luigi and Spamus/Ganondork/Craptain Failcon/The Jiggernaut/Fairy Boy on their respective sides on the lower tier list spectrum. Frankly, the only difference between them is how much their top tier matchups are different where the lower guys have a awfully bad matchup/are severely underatted. I am of the opinion of them all being in the same tier based on the healthy balance between the 9 of them. None of them severly pwn the others except for Yoshi and Ike against Squirtle whereas they outclass/are outclassed by the characters sandwiching them. This is where I seriously beleive they should be:


Mid: Luigi, Peach, Shiek/Zelda, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Bowser, Fox
Low: Shiek, Ike, Sonic, Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Yoshi, Ness, Mario, Lucas
Bottom: Jigglypuff, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

If it is heavily contested that Ike is low tier, then Zelda and Shiek alone should be in low tier too simply because they are not any better than Ike. I like DanGR keeping up with the consistency.

 

[Darknid]

Dude, DK's recovery is not that good. Anyboy who is somewhat proficient at edgeguarding can gimp DK. DK's recovery has nothing on MK's dair, DDD's bair, R.O.B.'s everything, G&W's fair, Mario's cape, Kirby/Jiggs/MK's multiple jumps, etc. All you need is a quick projectile or a high priority/ranged/disjointed attack to beat DK's recovery; Over half of the roster has something like that. It is better than Ike's recovery, but not by leagues like you claim.

And honestly, I think Ike, Zelda, Shiek, Sonic, Yoshi, Mario, Ness, Pokemon Trainer, and maybe even Lucas are in the same tier. They all look more close to each other than they do to Fox/Bowser/Luigi and Spamus/Ganondork/Craptain Failcon/The Jiggernaut/Fairy Boy on their respective sides on the lower tier list spectrum. Frankly, the only difference between them is how much their top tier matchups are different where the lower guys have a awfully bad matchup/are severely underatted. I am of the opinion of them all being in the same tier based on the healthy balance between the 9 of them. None of them severly pwn the others except for Yoshi and Ike against Squirtle whereas they outclass/are outclassed by the characters sandwiching them. This is where I seriously beleive they should be:


Mid: Luigi, Peach, Shiek/Zelda, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Bowser, Fox
Low: Shiek, Ike, Sonic, Zelda, Pokemon Trainer, Yoshi, Ness, Mario, Lucas
Bottom: Jigglypuff, Samus, Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf

If it is heavily contested that Ike is low tier, then Zelda and Shiek alone should be in low tier too simply because they are not any better than Ike. I like DanGR keeping up with the consistency.

Well, I don't know what to say, other than you're wrong. Watch vids of DKs playing. Sure, in theory anyone can beat it but that doesn't seem to happen.

EDIT:

Well, first off, DK will rarely be in a situation where his recovery will be just enough to bring him back. DK's recovery is almost always more than enough, and generally he's usually in the position to do his lagless onstage landing. MK's dair rarely beats it, D3's bair rarely beats it, ROB and GnW don't do crap, the only thing you listed that can reliably mess with DK's recovery is Kirby, his dair. A quick projectile? Well, then he will just DI over you and recover. You'd need a quick projectile that pushes DK away from the stage or kills him otherwise he will just return. Most projectiles that kill fly straight forward anyway, not really a threat. Maybe a gordo, but idk. Watch any good DK play.

 

[Frown]

DK's horizontal aerial movement is very good. He can usually make it back without using the Africa Choppa.

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

 

[Pancakesyo]

lol

fox is going up from that spot 100%.

 

[Deathcarter]

DK's horizontal aerial movement is very good. He can usually make it back without using the Africa Choppa.

"S Class"
Yoshi - 4.04
Jigglypuff - 3.87
Wario - 3.71
Wolf - 3.63
Captain Falcon - 3.63

"A Class"
Sonic - 3.36
Donkey Kong - 3.36
Lucas - 3.30
Bowser - 3.30
Squirtle - 3.27
Mr. Game & Watch - 3.24
Marth - 3.24

"B Class"
Zero Suit Samus - 3.13
Charizard - 3.07
Zelda - 3.02
Samus - 2.97
Lucario - 2.95
Ness - 2.92
Mario - 2.92

"C Class"
Snake - 2.88
Toon Link - 2.83
Ike - 2.83
Pikachu - 2.74
Peach - 2.74
R.O.B. - 2.70
Pit - 2.70
Fox - 2.70
Falco - 2.70

"D Class"
Ganondorf - 2.62
Kirby - 2.59
Sheik - 2.57
Olimar - 2.55
Diddy Kong - 2.50
Link - 2.45

"F Class"
Meta Knight - 2.35
Ivysaur - 2.32
Ice Climbers - 2.32
Luigi - 2.29
King Dedede - 2.10

I guess you learn something new everyday.

@Darknid: Have you ever thought that Ike's recovery was already accounted for in the tier list. Maybe if he had a better recovery, he could be in D tier; didn't that ever occur to you.

But I want this question answered, are any of the low tiers on the level of Shiek/Ike/Zelda/Fox/Bowser? Because a lot of people want to move Mario/Yoshi/Sonic/Ness/Pokemon Trainer to the bottom of lower-mid, while ignoring that those 5 are pretty much on the same level with none of them being exceptionally better than the other 4 while at the same time, they all look like they can move up in the tier list (don't mention them moving above Samus and Lucas because that is more of a case of those 2 moving down than the other 5 moving up). Should all 5 move to lower-mid/lower mid become one with low tier if they can compete with the purgatory 5. Or should you break up the capable 5, and select a few to move to purgatory (there is no name for a tier inbetween mid and low).

 

[da K.I.D.]

ness, sonic (obviously), PT (lol reflex), and yoshi, i can understand those four

but i really dont see what people see in mario, he seems really bad, and yes ive seen boss vids, and that just looks like a really bad character being played by a good player

 

[Darknid]

I guess you learn something new everyday.

@Darknid: Have you ever thought that Ike's recovery was already accounted for in the tier list. Maybe if he had a better recovery, he could be in D tier; didn't that ever occur to you.

But I want this question answered, are any of the low tiers on the level of Shiek/Ike/Zelda/Fox/Bowser? Because a lot of people want to move Mario/Yoshi/Sonic/Ness/Pokemon Trainer to the bottom of lower-mid, while ignoring that those 5 are pretty much on the same level with none of them being exceptionally better than the other 4 while at the same time, they all look like they can move up in the tier list (don't mention them moving above Samus and Lucas because that is more of a case of those 2 moving down than the other 5 moving up). Should all 5 move to lower-mid/lower mid become one with low tier if they can compete with the purgatory 5. Or should you break up the capable 5, and select a few to move to purgatory (there is no name for a tier inbetween mid and low).

Well there will be a lot of people claiming their main needs to go up..But I try to be unbiased(even if it seems like I am, arguing for DK's recovery). I honestly think Mario and Ness are mid tier material.

Mario is a pretty good character. He's one of the most agile, proficient aerial brawlers in the game and has probably the 2nd best gimping game behind MK. Plus he combos very well and has a great projectile. One of the best projectiles in the game IMO, it's really underrated. But there is that D3 crap that gets him down. If it weren't for that, I'd gladly argue that his proper placement would be above Ike, Zelda, Bowser etc. But the thing is, you can put him in lower mid or upper low, it won't change much. You can't look in the middle of the tier list and see one character on top of another and conclude that that character is better, it really isn't that absolute. Hell I doubt you could even conclude that within 5 spaces.

It's a good question though. I guess it depends on how things turn out. If Yoshi expertise grows and grows, Yoshi may rocket up, same with a lot of chars it seems.

 

[woody72691]

thats was a mouthful

 

[LumpyCPU...]

thats was a mouthful

first of all, giggidy giggidy goo.

secondly, that's an awesome account name!!!!

 

[GwJ]

Well, I don't know what to say, other than you're wrong. Watch vids of DKs playing. Sure, in theory anyone can beat it but that doesn't seem to happen.

EDIT:

Well, first off, DK will rarely be in a situation where his recovery will be just enough to bring him back. DK's recovery is almost always more than enough, and generally he's usually in the position to do his lagless onstage landing. MK's dair rarely beats it, D3's bair rarely beats it, ROB and GnW don't do crap, the only thing you listed that can reliably mess with DK's recovery is Kirby, his dair. A quick projectile? Well, then he will just DI over you and recover. You'd need a quick projectile that pushes DK away from the stage or kills him otherwise he will just return. Most projectiles that kill fly straight forward anyway, not really a threat. Maybe a gordo, but idk. Watch any good DK play.

Actually, everyone one of ROB's aerials beats DK's recovery.

And pancakesyo, stop spamming.

 

[choknater]

ROB's recovery is excellent, one of the best He just has to deal with not being able to air dodge out of his up-B which is easily remedied

 

[Ingulit]

Well, I don't know what to say, other than you're wrong. Watch vids of DKs playing. Sure, in theory anyone can beat it but that doesn't seem to happen.

EDIT:

Well, first off, DK will rarely be in a situation where his recovery will be just enough to bring him back. DK's recovery is almost always more than enough, and generally he's usually in the position to do his lagless onstage landing. MK's dair rarely beats it, D3's bair rarely beats it, ROB and GnW don't do crap, the only thing you listed that can reliably mess with DK's recovery is Kirby, his dair. A quick projectile? Well, then he will just DI over you and recover. You'd need a quick projectile that pushes DK away from the stage or kills him otherwise he will just return. Most projectiles that kill fly straight forward anyway, not really a threat. Maybe a gordo, but idk. Watch any good DK play.

Diddy Peanuts > DK Recovery

lol 2cents That's not to say that the matchup isn't totally in DK's favor, but still, a decent barrage and DK will be knocked too low to recover. It's all a matter of spacing on Diddy's part when DK is off stage.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUlBO4zsfmo&feature=related for a basic idea

 

[Xebenkeck]

Defense is just a wall-of-pain. Lots of characters have that. His approaching game is negligible because he can't do much when he's inside.

B-Air and B-Throw kill, but that's all for reliable ones.

Grab release stuff hampers him a whole lot. Since EIDI is nonexistent, Charizard and Marth take him for free.

Sorry to correct you, but ness' uair kills at really low %'s i.e. 110-120 if fresh, and it isn't hard to land. And you forget the spike of death is always relible. Ness has a bunch of other kill moves too, but like you said unrelible, Pk flash, PKT2, PKT,(stage spikes), Nair, fsmash. And his wall of pain is better then alot of said characters, he has two options to make it, either spam F-airs forward, or spam N-airs in a vertical manner. I agree Ness' approach game is pretty pathetic, a 1% hit from a fair hardly sufices. Ness' best approach honestly is a dash grab.

Grab release is a !@#in female dog, but there are ways around it, by either camping by an edge, counterpicking uneven stages, counterpicking stages with small platforms, or a stage with hazards like Brinstar(my favorite counterpick for ness)

Also many people write off Ness dsmash as being relativly useless, it actually is quite useful, it hits anyone who trys to roll dodge. If you charge it, it will beat a spot dodge, and if ness' back is to his opponent it covers him. Unlike its melee counterpart, it actually has knockback if you hit with it so it does give you breathing room.

Reflex is still too good though

 

[woody72691]

ROB is just playing annoying to fight against

 

[Judge Judy]

ness, sonic (obviously), PT (lol reflex), and yoshi, i can understand those four

but i really dont see what people see in mario, he seems really bad, and yes ive seen boss vids, and that just looks like a really bad character being played by a good player

His edge game and gimping abilities. Also, you might want to watch Fear and SupaTony.