The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[choknater]

Yeah but couldn't you say the same about any low tier? I'm sure Mario, Ness and Yoshi have much more potential than Ike. You could say a great Ike could beat the average bottom tiers, but could a great ike really beat a great Mario or Ness or whoever? If you are going to compare the best of the best, I'd like to see a great Ike beating Deva, Boss or any other great players that play low tiers. But even so..you're not doing it right. If you're going to assume that the low tiers will be your average pro player, you must assume the same for Ike as far as the tier list is concerned. I see no reason other than D3 to place Ike above the likes of Mario, Ness and Yoshi. But I am not dogging Ike, though, he is just overrated(just like his buddy Marth..)

Yes, but the point I'm getting at is...

Not all the players of characters can back what they say about matchups through gameplay. Lots of Sheik players claim that she has an advantage against the likes of Ness or Wolf, but don't have the right amount of skill to do so.

People take so-called matchup "ratios" way too seriously when they can change at any moment. It is the right and ability of the great players of those characters to change those ratios. I can never accept them as set in stone, ever.

Ike has his limits, but he also has his possibilities.

(I am an optomist when it comes to smash and characters.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A lot of those matchups seem like you simply slapped a 50-50 on there and called it a day. I mean come on..Almost even with Diddy Kong? Does that make sense? Even with Sonic? Was that really explored? Was Wario really explored? Even with Lucas and Ness? It really doesn't seem like the work has been done here.

Yes, both of those characters were discussed twice, once on each board, with the best of the opposing characters stating those numbers.

You obviously have no clue as to how Ike works. Please stop playing fsmashing noobs. It's people who think like that which make various characters (such as Ike), get such bad raps. They don't know how they work, and then claim that they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq_GN3VWhEI&feature=channel_page

Good Ike VS Diddy video, so you can begin to get an idea.

 

[WingedKnight]

People take so-called matchup "ratios" way too seriously when they can change at any moment. It is the right and ability of the great players of those characters to change those ratios. I can never accept them as set in stone, ever.

QFT!!! Let's use the prime example of good ole Meta Knight. The scene a few months ago was "no match-up that is disadvantageous or even close to neutral". Now, he has a dozen match-ups that are dead even (I hate how a clearly neutral match-up for him is always listed 55:45 just "cuz hes MK"), and some of then could well prove in time to be bad for him (Wario, anyone?). Long story short, he sure isn't "broken" anymore. This works with the top chars, but exactly the same with lower spots, just reversed. The metagame advances, the playstyle changes, the mighty ratios shift. And we Brawl on...

 

[choknater]

Yeah, I usually don't state my completely subjective opinion, but I do agree that Ike is an underrated powerhouse. His jab/nair/fair game sets a very solid foundation that he can innovate and work through in order to win matchups/matches.

 

[Kinzer]

It's easy to assume no work was done, but to prove it is a different story.

I know Ike & Sonic are an even matchup, so is Diddy Kong (The winner is determined by who has better Naner control). If you think otherwise go read the discussions, they're out there.

P.S. I really out to start reporting people for having at my post count... at least it goes under the "off-topic" section.

Edit: Good lord the thread hasn't been this fast moving since ti came out, there's liek at least 3 people who posted before me!

 

[Red Arremer]

I dunno, Ike seems to have similar MU digits as Bowser, just that Bowser does have more advantageous MUs even in High Tier and goes even with MK.
But in general Bowser's MUs are mostly 40:60 ones. x.x

 

[choknater]

Thanks to yours truly!!!! LMAO jk.

Sonic's mobility allows him to have great banana control. He has a strong point that his dash attack is very good, much like Diddy's (except not as lagless... but no big deal.)

I think the only SLIGHT advantage that Diddy has over Sonic banana-wise is that, of course, Diddy is the one pulling them out after they disappear. I know it sounds obvious, but he is essentially controlling the space right off the bat by being the one placing them. Sonic has to work past this... but it's fine for Sonic I think, because his LONG RANGE speed as opposed to Diddy's close range speed can make zoning very easy for Sonic, allowing him to get in position to grab bananas when Diddy can't catch up.


Did I make any sense? haha

lol @ "MUs" for matchups. nice spadefox

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I dunno, Ike seems to have similar MU digits as Bowser, just that Bowser does have more advantageous MUs even in High Tier and goes even with MK.
But in general Bowser's MUs are mostly 40:60 ones. x.x

Oi, I started to notice that as I put up the numbers. A few of the * ones could move ever so slightly in our favor because of DACIT, except for Picachu, which will probably go down due to chaingrab, but those are basically the numbers.

 

[Kinzer]

Uh... Chok, I was talking about the Ike Vs. Diddy matchup, not Sonic Vs. Diddy.

However now that it was brought up, I suppose that the MU is even too... (I like to think it's on Sonic's advantage but're you gonna do...?)

 

[Darknid]

Yes, both of those characters were discussed twice, once on each board, with the best of the opposing characters stating those numbers.

You obviously have no clue as to how Ike works. Please stop playing fsmashing noobs. It's people who think like that which make various characters (such as Ike), get such bad raps. They don't know how they work, and then claim that they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq_GN3VWhEI&feature=channel_page

Good Ike VS Diddy video, so you can begin to get an idea.

You don't really know me or who I've played, the video taught me nothing I didn't already know, and surely doesn't prove anything. Characters like ike get bad raps because it takes a great deal of skill to get to the point where your disadvantage is only a slight one. 6-4 vs ICs is impressive, but even so that matchup must be extremely hard. None of this justifies Ike being mid-tier, either.

 

[choknater]

oh LOL my bad.

Hm... Ike vs Diddy sounds like bad news IMO. As long as Diddy doesn't do anything stupid or hasty, diddy can still dominate the game at a mid-long range with naner throws, guns, and well timed dash attacks if he really does have to approach. Basically, beating Ike is not taking too many close range risks and therefore not falling to his power. Ike's goal is basically to get close in order to play RPS with his amazing jab, aerials, and mixing in grabs since his grabs are decent.

 

[Red Arremer]

Oi, I started to notice that as I put up the numbers. A few of the * ones could move ever so slightly in our favor because of DACIT, except for Picachu, which will probably go down due to chaingrab, but those are basically the numbers.

Well, basically, the only characters who really wreck Bowser are Dedede and the Ice Climbers because of their infinites. He does have some other bad MUs, but most of them, as said, are either even or slightly disadvantegous.

@choknater: What's so funny about that? I prefer abbreviating it cause I write it like 9001 times a day

 

[WingedKnight]

I'm really unsure on Ike's placement. I do believe he's underestimated, but the question is how much? For now, he belongs a little lower down the list, maybe bottom of mid or top of low. But I would not be surprised if he advanced to the point he needed to be moved up.
Yeah, I like Ike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You don't really know me or who I've played, the video taught me nothing I didn't already know, and surely doesn't prove anything. Characters like ike get bad raps because it takes a great deal of skill to get to the point where your disadvantage is only a slight one. 6-4 vs ICs is impressive, but even so that matchup must be extremely hard. None of this justifies Ike being mid-tier, either.

No, I don't know you, but I can tell by your comments you are indeed clueless about Ike. And it does justify Ike being Mid-tier: the match-up ratios (which are for the most part agreed on by both sides) have no "Because of this, you can not win a tournament" issue, nor does he have one built into his character. Look at all of the characters below him: except for Sonic, they all have something that keeps them down. Mario has his D3 match-up and basically no tournament results largely due to that. EB boys have grab-release issues. PT has switching and fatigue issues, etc. Ike does not have these issues, thus being bottom of Mid. He doesn't have a "killer" weakness. Some strong ones yet, but nothing to those extents.

This is also why I can see Sonic being move up above Ike, he falls in the same boat.

EDIT: lol at posts suddenly before mine.

Against Diddy, Ike has to abuse his DACIT if Diddy tries to stay away at Mid range, which is why we will avoid FD as much as possible. Platforms help us in this regard. DACIT -> Jab -> Pivot Grab is possible, and obvious puts us right in Diddy's face.

I actually have a fair amount of experience in this area (went against Hylian's Diddy, someone at the monthlies in my area uses Diddy a lot), it's one of those momentum match-ups where you know who's most likely to win in about 30 seconds of game time.

 

[Kinzer]

Well but that's the thing.

Diddy certainly is a monster once he gets the momentum, but he has to work in a lot of things for only a tiny reward, whereas it only takes one thing to go wrong before Ike destroys the foundation of Diddy and the match goes even or Ike starts to get his way.

Diddy is a lightweight, and lacking in kill power, Ike is the very opposite with the Power semi-trucks and decently heavy (not including gimp K.O.s, which don't even happen if you don't allow it to). Diddy can cause some frustration starting at 0% but once it goes a little bit past 50% or so, all those strings are lost, and it goes down to baiting attacks/hoping for a mess-up.

 

[DanGR]

The SBR's Current Tier List
SS Tier- Meta Knight
S Tier- Snake
A Tier- Falco, King Dedede, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth, Diddy Kong
B Tier- Wario, R.O.B., Lucario, Olimar
C Tier-Pikachu, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Ice Climbers
D Tier- Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Wolf
E Tier- Luigi, Zelda, Bowser, Fox, Sheik, Ike
F Tier- Mario, Lucas, Ness, Samus, Sonic, Pokémon Trainer, Yoshi
G Tier- Link,Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon

My Tier List
S Tier- Meta Knight, Snake
A Tier- Falco, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, Marth
B Tier- R.O.B., Pikachu, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Olimar, Zero Suit Samus
C Tier- Luigi, Peach, Pokémon Trainer, Pit, Wolf, Toon Link, Fox, Sheik/Zelda
D Tier- Bowser, Ike, Sonic, Sheik, Mario, Ness, Samus, Zelda, Lucas, Yoshi
E Tier- Jigglypuff, Link, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon

 

[Red Arremer]

PT is definitely too high, imo... and I don't know if Fox is better than Bowser. :X

 

[Nidtendofreak]

PT is definitely too high, imo... and I don't know if Fox is better than Bowser. :X

Oi, those were the only two things I saw that stood out as a bit off to me, PT being the major one and Fox being a minor one. Other then that, any changes I would make are just minor, IMO ones, not ones I completely can't see being correct.

 

[choknater]

I think DanGR's list is actually very good, especially for one posted in this thread (lol.)

Dunno about Luigi, but DanGR's a smart guy so I'll trust that placement.

Ah, wait a minute, Sheik/Zelda separate from Sheik and Zelda?

I'll accept that I guess, haha.

 

[WingedKnight]

No more SS tier, people have seen the light!
Wait.....why is Olimar all the way down there?!? Or Bowser for that matter.

 

[DanGR]

PT is definitely too high, imo... and I don't know if Fox is better than Bowser. :X

I figured. I regularly play with one of the best Foxes in the U.S., and Reflex is in my state...

When you hear about him taking a match off of M2K's MK with PT, and when you see him regularly two and three stock one of the best Falcos in the U.S. at a tourney, it's difficult not to place him that high.

 

[choknater]

"down there?"

I think tier orders don't really matter as much as the tier placements. People get really nitpicky about tier orders when it's really not a big deal. I think he was placed the correct tier on DanGR's list.

 

[Red Arremer]

I think DanGR's list is actually very good, especially for one posted in this thread (lol.)

Dunno about Luigi, but DanGR's a smart guy so I'll trust that placement.

Ah, wait a minute, Sheik/Zelda separate from Sheik and Zelda?

I'll accept that I guess, haha.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226311

Though, on second thought, I think the combination is a bit too low, too. ;o


@DanGR:
I agree that PT is an amazing character if used right, but I don't know if he really is pretty much on the top of Mid Tier. He's too low on the current list, no doubt, but I think you've placed him too high.

Also, yes, Fox can be good, but so can be Bowser. Have you ever played a good Bowser? The character's sensationally good in the right hands (NinjaLink, Sliq and Vex Kasrani should have some Bowser vids on YouTube. I know of one NL is playing Boss' Mario, stuff like that).

 

[WingedKnight]

I suppose you're right, chok. I just see Olimar as Top 10 material, and there he is in like 15th. ^_^'

 

[cookieM0Nster]

bad or not it doesn't matter. it's just like saying CF is better than Ganon, it's not true.

AWW NAWWW YOU DIDN'T

ITS ON, MY FALCON, UR GANON, ANYTIME


ITS ON BRA.


I like the version 2.0 list. Cfalc is now underestimated, time for good players to break the game wit him! yayuzz!

 

[Darknid]

No, I don't know you, but I can tell by your comments you are indeed clueless about Ike. And it does justify Ike being Mid-tier: the match-up ratios (which are for the most part agreed on by both sides) have no "Because of this, you can not win a tournament" issue, nor does he have one built into his character. Look at all of the characters below him: except for Sonic, they all have something that keeps them down. Mario has his D3 match-up and basically no tournament results largely due to that. EB boys have grab-release issues. PT has switching and fatigue issues, etc. Ike does not have these issues, thus being bottom of Mid. He doesn't have a "killer" weakness. Some strong ones yet, but nothing to those extents.

This is also why I can see Sonic being move up above Ike, he falls in the same boat.

EDIT: lol at posts suddenly before mine.

Against Diddy, Ike has to abuse his DACIT if Diddy tries to stay away at Mid range, which is why we will avoid FD as much as possible. Platforms help us in this regard. DACIT -> Jab -> Pivot Grab is possible, and obvious puts us right in Diddy's face.

I actually have a fair amount of experience in this area (went against Hylian's Diddy, someone at the monthlies in my area uses Diddy a lot), it's one of those momentum match-ups where you know who's most likely to win in about 30 seconds of game time.

As for the text in bold, no, you really can't. You are incorrect.

Obviously a "killer" weakness doesn't influence tier placement very much because DK remains high tier and Luigi remains mid-tier, despite the fact that both fall prey to D3's infinite. There's also the fact that Wario remains high tier despite the large number of grab release problems he has(I mean really, Bowser can infinite him both ways and Yoshi forces an air break, meaning a guaranteed infinite). As for Ike's weakness, well, there is that recovery..

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I might as well post my newest tier list again. BTW Dan, I took another look at the list and I saw some other things I didn't agree with. Like Zelda's placement. >_> Way too low.

S Tier- Meta Knight, Snake
A Tier- Falco, King Dedede, Wario, (Diddy Kong, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch)
B Tier- (R.O.B., Pikachu), Ice Climbers, (Olimar, Lucario), Kirby, (Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus)
C Tier- (Luigi, Peach), Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, (Pit, Toon Link), Zelda, Bowser
D Tier- Fox, Sheik, (Ike, Sonic), (Ness, Mario), Yoshi, PT, Samus, Lucas
E Tier- Link, Jigglypuff, (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Really close placements are defined by ()s.

EDIT: Actually, yes I can, just like if I said "Diddy's Banana's are useless" you would be able to tell I was clueless about how Diddy Kong works.

-Wario can stay away from grabs easily: one of the few, if not only guy who can. He's that flipping good in the air.
-DK has lots of other big things going for him however. Strong AND fast? His match-ups outside of D3 are good as well, but it's the D3 match-up that won't let him move up.
-Luigi has more going for him then Mario, hence his higher placement then Mario. He would be higher however if it wasn't for D3's infinite. And he's not as easy to grab due to how much he slides around on the ground, so that helps a bit.
-Ike's recovery: Olimar has bad recovery, look where he is, but yes it's keeping them both down some spots. If he had a better recovery, he would be above Sheik without a doubt, maybe a spot higher then that. That's not a killer weakness. It's a very noticeable one yes, but it can be worked around. For example, on BF and SV, Ike can recover by sliding up the slope with aether, making it harder to gimp. He can also go to Pirate Ship or Mario Circuit. It's a weakness that is easily fixed with stage choice. You can't really work around grab release gayness.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, the secret to this whole tier placement thing is that this game is actually really balanced, and balanced to the point where most of the individual character placements are negligible.

It's like N64 Smash, only to a lesser extent; it's possible to do a whole lot with characters that are generally considered low tier if the player is excellent with them.

 

[Red Arremer]

S Tier- Meta Knight, Snake
A Tier- Falco, King Dedede, Wario, (Diddy Kong, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch)
B Tier- (R.O.B., Pikachu), Ice Climbers, (Olimar, Lucario), Kirby, (Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus)
C Tier- (Luigi, Peach), Zelda/Sheik, Wolf, (Pit, Toon Link), Zelda, Bowser
D Tier- Fox, Sheik, (Ike, Sonic), (Ness, Mario), Yoshi, PT, Samus, Lucas
E Tier- Link, Jigglypuff, (Ganondorf, Captain Falcon)

Really close placements are defined by ()s.

Other than me thinking that Zelda/Sheik probably can be B Tier and PT being better (probably before Ness/Mario bracket), I think that this is one of the best Tier Lists posted so far. You might want to put Falco a bit lower, because he will probably crash down in general (Pika's CG etc), but overall... well done. ^^

Well, the secret to this whole tier placement thing is that this game is actually really balanced, and balanced to the point where most of the individual character placements are negligible.

It's like N64 Smash, only to a lesser extent; it's possible to do a whole lot with characters that are generally considered low tier if the player is excellent with them.

Very true. I always had the feeling that Brawl was better balanced than anyone would admit. Generally I'd even say that characters in the same tier are pretty much exchangable and it still would look right.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Ness should be B tier, he has a REALLY good approach, defense, and EXCELLENT killing options.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ness should be B tier, he has a REALLY good approach, defense, and EXCELLENT killing options.

I really think Bowser should be S Tier. He has an excellent defense, great punishing options, good killing options,has a reliably good recovery, is great in spacing, can deal awesome damage, is amazingly mobile and has a grab release.

...Wait...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ness should be B tier, he has a REALLY good approach, defense, and EXCELLENT killing options.

Defense is just a wall-of-pain. Lots of characters have that. His approaching game is negligible because he can't do much when he's inside.

B-Air and B-Throw kill, but that's all for reliable ones.

Grab release stuff hampers him a whole lot. Since EIDI is nonexistent, Charizard and Marth take him for free.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@Spade: I suspect that Falco will go down, but the CG on Pikachu hasn't been really proven in tournaments yet. I'm waiting for that before I drop him one. Two spots at the max. As for PT.....meh, I don't know as much as about him as some of the others, I still think Ness and Mario > PT for now. Could change though, but I also believe Yoshi > PT.....maybe they'll both move up over Ness and Mario in the future, but Yoshi would need to keep up the tournament results. Zelda/Sheik was my first attempt at placing them in a tier list, so it could be off I'll admit. It's a bit harder, seeing as they don't have their own spot for tournament results.

@cookie: is that a joke post or serious post?

 

[woody72691]

aww Nawww You Didn't

Its On, My Falcon, Ur Ganon, Anytime


Its On Bra.


I Like The Version 2.0 List. Cfalc Is Now Underestimated, Time For Good Players To Break The Game Wit Him! Yayuzz!

Hell Yeah Man!!!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Spade: I suspect that Falco will go down, but the CG on Pikachu hasn't been really proven in tournaments yet. I'm waiting for that before I drop him one. Two spots at the max. As for PT.....meh, I don't know as much as about him as some of the others, I still think Ness and Mario > PT for now. Could change though, but I also believe Yoshi > PT.....maybe they'll both move up over Ness and Mario in the future, but Yoshi would need to keep up the tournament results. Zelda/Sheik was my first attempt at placing them in a tier list, so it could be off I'll admit. It's a bit harder, seeing as they don't have their own spot for tournament results.

@cookie: is that a joke post or serious post?

Well, the thing about Ness is that his game is mostly WoP with an unsafe projectile thrown in, which is a dime a dozen in this game; many can simply do it better. That, combined with the grab-release shenanigans on him (since he has to be on the ground to B-Throw someone for killing, it's not nearly as hard to grab him as it is, say, Wario) sort of curse him to mediocrity.

As for Mario, he can combo, edgeguard, and is rather mobile, but he has so little range that in most situations, he ends up being Luigi, minus a lot of power and a bit of range.

That's not to say that Mario and Ness don't have their positive, unique points, but that's what I see on the surface.

Pokemon Trainer's biggest issue is the switch-on-KO mechanic, where one (or even worse [but much rarer], two) Pokemon end (or ends) up being dead weight. When you're outplaying someone as PT, you can usually switch when you KO someone, so that the 'bad' Pokemon is only out at the end of your first stock, thus limiting that problem, but you're put in a sticky situation when that doesn't work out for you. Granted, getting a quick KO with the "bad" Pokemon and switching isn't too hard, but it's never fun to work with.

 

[DanGR]

No more SS tier, people have seen the light!
Wait.....why is Olimar all the way down there?!? Or Bowser for that matter.

Olimar is simply overrated. Bowser lacks tournament data.

"down there?"

I think tier orders don't really matter as much as the tier placements. People get really nitpicky about tier orders when it's really not a big deal. I think he was placed the correct tier on DanGR's list.

The bolded part- exactly. For my first list, I focused on where the cutoffs should be rather than the individual placements.

@DanGR:
I agree that PT is an amazing character if used right, but I don't know if he really is pretty much on the top of Mid Tier. He's too low on the current list, no doubt, but I think you've placed him too high.

Also, yes, Fox can be good, but so can be Bowser. Have you ever played a good Bowser? The character's sensationally good in the right hands (NinjaLink, Sliq and Vex Kasrani should have some Bowser vids on YouTube. I know of one NL is playing Boss' Mario, stuff like that).

Maybe Reflex is just too good...
Yeah, that's it. >_>

Bowser has all the grab release shenanigans, but where are the tournament placings to back him up? Tier lists measure competitive value and without the data to prove it, I don't think I can place him any higher.

 

[Red Arremer]

Bowser has all the grab release shenanigans, but where are the tournament placings to back him up? Tier lists measure competitive value and without the data to prove it, I don't think I can place him any higher.

The problem is that really no one plays Bowser. =/
Even one the better Bowser players (Vex) doesn't use him in tournament. One of the reasons is Dedede having infected pretty much every tournament and we all know what De3 does to him.

But in general Bowser is a bad character everyone underestimates... do you think he is slow? I'm sure you do. Did you know his MU with MK is even? I'm sure you didn't.

Here's a thread on that matter I made on the Bowser boards:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227331

 

[Rykoshet]

A lot of those matchups seem like you simply slapped a 50-50 on there and called it a day. I mean come on..Almost even with Diddy Kong? Does that make sense? Even with Sonic? Was that really explored? Was Wario really explored? Even with Lucas and Ness? It really doesn't seem like the work has been done here.

My personal belief isnt that ike is 50-50 with diddy but honestly it's probably a 6-4 at worst. Vs sonic it is a 50-50, and you're free to ask any "Ike knowledgable" sonic if that's the case (malcolm was actually the one that decided on the 50-50 and the guy is obviously amazing with one and is more than competent with the other). Wario is a 50-50, that's been explored. I find lucas harder to fight than ness but that's only because I can read ness and I don't pay enough attention to lucas to see what's coming. The work has been done and if anything our matchup threads are far more comprehensive than the crap I tend to see when ike comes up anywhere on the other boards.

Typically what you see is "Oh yeah 7:3 on ike definitely, I've never fought an ike that I thought was hard", mostly because the flat out amazing ikes count in at less than a dozen. I've had ****ing links tell me that they think such is the case. Just because a character requires a high level of skill to play competently does not make the character terrible, it just means that at the highest levels of play (the only levels that count) the character can hold its own. Ike is mid-tier, as the only impossible matchups in my own eyes are mk and olimar, and considering I can 0-death olimar to make up for the 0-120 he puts me at, even that isnt set in stone.

I mean honestly, is your response really "well yeah but you have to actually be good with the character"? That sort of crap only applies when you're discussing whether or not a character is broken, which ike obviously isn't.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The problem is that really no one plays Bowser. =/
Even one the better Bowser players (Vex) doesn't use him in tournament. One of the reasons is Dedede having infected pretty much every tournament and we all know what De3 does to him.

But in general Bowser is a bad character everyone underestimates... do you think he is slow? I'm sure you do. Did you know his MU with MK is even? I'm sure you didn't.

He's sadly faster then Ike outside of Jab, Utilt, and Bair IIRC. ;_;

I've played around with Bowser a bit, while he's nicely similar to Ike in some regards: he doesn't help me find a good secondary to fix up Ike's issues. Falcon doesn't really solve anything (I just plain old like using him), and it would be sad if Ike was my best answer to D3. >_<

Maybe I'll try him again later, I'm working mostly on G&W currently. Need to stop using Fairs like Ike and use Bair instead.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Maybe Reflex is just too good...
Yeah, that's it. >_>

Well, that's a given, but Squirtle's pretty cursed awesome, too...Charizard can hold his own, and Ivysaur has some pretty neat niches.

There's a lot to learn, and there's a lot of options open. At least a fair amount of potential, for sure. I wouldn't waste time with a character that doesn't have anything to grow on.

Today, I figured out that full-hopping F-Airs with Charizard works well against taller characters, and that Ivysaur's Bullet Seed is quite usable when the opponent is above you if they have bad horizontal aerial mobility, like Dedede.