The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[woody72691]

i did think about it, it was bad response on both of are part your response had nothing to do with mine and mine was like proving it

 

[kr3wman]

i did think about it, it was bad response on both of are part your response had nothing to do with mine and mine was like proving it

My statement had everything to do with yours. You state something ; I add something to it. I wasn't disagreeing with yours in any way.

 

[woody72691]

yeah but man it sounded so stupid. i just want a new tier and let's make sure that so called god meta knight gets knocked down a few tiers abit

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

Lot of people say Snake will go down in the next tier list

 

[Frown]

Lot of people say Snake will go down in the next tier list

And be replaced by whom? Falco? Noooo.

 

[Blad01]

Falco will move down on the newt tier list imo... He's already overrated, and now has a 20-100% CG by Pika.

 

[Kage Me]

Falco will probably move down, yeah...
I also think that Lucario can make it to A tier.

 

[Browny]

since my list V4.0 was horribad (and before things like pikas new CG etc were found), time for my list, V4.5

Win tier:
MK, Snake

Top tier
DDD, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Wario, G&W

High tier
Olimar, Marth, Lucario, Kirby, Pikachu, ROB

Mid tier
DK, ZSS, Peach, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Luigi, Fox, Zelda

Low tier
Bowser, Sheik, Sonic, PT, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Ike

Bottom tier
Samus, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Captain falcon


lol i know my top/high tier may look weird, im basing it on the degree to which i think those characers can dominate the majority of the cast without much effort

 

[Frown]

since my list V4.0 was horribad (and before things like pikas new CG etc were found), time for my list, V4.5

Win tier:
MK, Snake

Top tier
DDD, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Wario, G&W

High tier
Olimar, Marth, Lucario, Kirby, Pikachu, ROB

Mid tier
DK, ZSS, Peach, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Luigi, Fox, Zelda

Low tier
Bowser, Sheik, Sonic, PT, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Ike

Bottom tier
Samus, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Captain falcon

I like it, I like it a lot!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Lucas, Ness, Mario, Yoshi, PT and Sonic all > Ike?

..........................


................................................

I'm sorry, but no. That is just flat out wrong. Again, the only one who can have an actual argument about being > Ike is Sonic.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You're an Ike main.. Any of those characters can beat Ike, Ike isn't that good. Maybe not Lucas and Ness, but I don't know those matchups too well. Mario Yoshi Sonic and PT can beat Ike, some of PT's Pokemon at least.

 

[choknater]

I don't think Snake will go down. In fact, I think he and MK should be in the same tier.

 

[Knamaginerasu]

I don't think it is necessary for MK and SS to have their own tiers

 

[Frown]

SS

I never used that abbreviation for Solid Snake before.

Now that I think of it...

SS tier
MK

S tier
SS

 

[woody72691]

since my list V4.0 was horribad (and before things like pikas new CG etc were found), time for my list, V4.5

Win tier:
MK, Snake

Top tier
DDD, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Wario, G&W

High tier
Olimar, Marth, Lucario, Kirby, Pikachu, ROB

Mid tier
DK, ZSS, Peach, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Luigi, Fox, Zelda

Low tier
Bowser, Sheik, Sonic, PT, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Ike

Bottom tier
Samus, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Captain falcon


lol i know my top/high tier may look weird, im basing it on the degree to which i think those characers can dominate the majority of the cast without much effort

it's still bad

 

[Red Arremer]

it's still bad

Why? I think that tier list is quite good. Except the fact I doubt Bowser is Low Tier. <_<

 

[philbobjoe]

And Ice Climbers are too high.

 

[Frown]

Bowser is mid tier because of his edgeguarding capabilities and because of his dtaunt.

Ice Climbers are high/top tier because of LOLWUT HAXX BAN PLZ

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

*djbrowny's tierlist*

Should Olimar and Game and Watch really be above Marth?

 

[Red Arremer]

Should Olimar and Game and Watch really be above Marth?

Olimar yes. GaW I dunno.
I personally think Marth is a little bit too overrated.

 

[woody72691]

ice climbers are way to high. and CF didnt move one spot. i think he deserves a little bit more respect than that. ganon is just plan bad. falcon there are good signs

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You're an Ike main.. Any of those characters can beat Ike, Ike isn't that good. Maybe not Lucas and Ness, but I don't know those matchups too well. Mario Yoshi Sonic and PT can beat Ike, some of PT's Pokemon at least.

I'm assuming direct match-ups is what you were talking about (sound like it by the wording)

Mario is 45-55 or 5-5, it's board dependent which number you will see.
Yoshi is 5-5 both boards.
Sonic is 5-5 both boards.
Squirtle is 7-3, but were we hearing a heck of a lot of numbers from the PT boards. I've seen everything from 7-3 (most common from the Ike board people) to 45-55, even with the grab release CG, and the fact they stated Squirtle's weakness is disjointed hitboxes which Ike has plenty of. It was mostly agreed on that Ike has a large advantage here.
Ivy and Charizard went back and forth a bit, basically one was right at even, the other was a slight disadvantage. Which one was which also went back and forth a bit, but I think it was 5-5 or 55-45 for Ivy and 45-55 or 4-6 Charizard.
Ness is even. (which way it leans is unknown, not enough Ness or Ike mains, and they basically never run into each other.)
Same idea with Lucas as with Ness.


Basically IIRC, the only lower ranked character (counting PT as a single character) that has an undisputed advantage is Link, and it's only 45-55.

 

[The Cunning Weasel]

I too think Falcon should place higher than Ganon. To Ganon's credibility, he has the dair which is really good though.

 

[woody72691]

yeah if the other player is mentally ********. sorry for my comment but it's true

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'm assuming direct match-ups is what you were talking about (sound like it by the wording)

Mario is 45-55 or 5-5, it's board dependent which number you will see.
Yoshi is 5-5 both boards.
Sonic is 5-5 both boards.
Squirtle is 7-3, but were we hearing a heck of a lot of numbers from the PT boards. I've seen everything from 7-3 (most common from the Ike board people) to 45-55, even with the grab release CG, and the fact they stated Squirtle's weakness is disjointed hitboxes which Ike has plenty of. It was mostly agreed on that Ike has a large advantage here.
Ivy and Charizard went back and forth a bit, basically one was right at even, the other was a slight disadvantage. Which one was which also went back and forth a bit, but I think it was 5-5 or 55-45 for Ivy and 45-55 or 4-6 Charizard.
Ness is even. (which way it leans is unknown, not enough Ness or Ike mains, and they basically never run into each other.)
Same idea with Lucas as with Ness.


Basically IIRC, the only lower ranked character (counting PT as a single character) that has an undisputed advantage is Link, and it's only 45-55.

OK, well on a tier list it's not matchups that really determine X character being higher than Y character, well not matchups with each other that is. What matters more is matchups in general, and iirc Ike has some pretty horrendous mtchups with higher tier characters. Well, so do some of the other characters we're discussing as well.

Arguing for the sake of arguing is fun.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I know that. You're the one that brought up the match-ups with those characters. >_>

Ike has 3 "****'d" match-ups, none of them as bad as say Mario VS D3. (lol infinity). Olimar is 3-7, Falco is either 3-7 or 35-65, D3 is either 3-7 or 35-65 unless it's Pirate Ship, in which case it's neutral to Ike's slight favor (of course, any D3 that knows what he is doing will strike that stage, but it's lulzy how much a stage can change a match-up. Big blast zones, no gimp KOs for D3, and no walk-off KOs for D3 = suddenly a lot easier match-up for Ike).

Sonic I have already mentioned I can see why people place him above Ike, so there isn't much to mention here. Mario has his LOL ***** YOU ARE NEVER WINNING A TOURNAMENT BECAUSE OF THIS match-up, Lucas has the deadly 4/5/what ever number it is of match-ups that kill him, Ness is in a similar boat, just slightly less so (Extra Inch DI was proven false IIRC, I saw that in a topic on the Ness boards. Someone went to de-bug mode, saw NO differences what so ever when using EIDI so w/e).

Yoshi and PT I am not as sure about match-up wise. Yoshi I know has his "not as bad as most people" match-up against MK, but I don't remember much outside of that for the high tiers: I'd have to re-look it up. PT has Marth for an indisputable bad match-up. According to them, they don't have another match-up were all 3 are at an disadvantage and the rest they have at least one neutral, but I'll be honest and say after their match-up discussion with the Ike boards and seeing how they discussed match-ups with other boards I don't trust their numbers that much. They changed the frame data of Bullet Seed like, 3 times when talking about it.

And yes, arguing for the sake of arguing is fun.

EDIT: I looked up Yoshi's, found a topic that has all of the match-up ratios but is slightly older (last post was in December). He looks fairly similar match-up wise: most match-ups are in the neutral area, a lot of disadvantages in the higher tiers with a few odd ones, etc.

 

[Lawz.]

since my list V4.0 was horribad (and before things like pikas new CG etc were found), time for my list, V4.5

Win tier:
MK, Snake

Top tier
DDD, Falco, Diddy, Ice Climbers, Wario, G&W

High tier
Olimar, Marth, Lucario, Kirby, Pikachu, ROB

Mid tier
DK, ZSS, Peach, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Luigi, Fox, Zelda

Low tier
Bowser, Sheik, Sonic, PT, Ness, Yoshi, Mario, Lucas, Ike

Bottom tier
Samus, Ganondorf, Link, Jigglypuff, Captain falcon


lol i know my top/high tier may look weird, im basing it on the degree to which i think those characers can dominate the majority of the cast without much effort

i see no reason for Ganon to be above Link

 

[choknater]

They are both quite bad lol, why do you let 1 spot get to you?

They're in the same tier, that's all that really matters. Chars in those tiers need amazing players to have any success

Like Sakurai.

HE IS ENTERTAINER

 

[kr3wman]

yeah if the other player is mentally ********. sorry for my comment but it's true

You totally sound like Navigatr. (2:30 mark)

 

[Lawz.]

They are both quite bad lol, why do you let 1 spot get to you?

They're in the same tier, that's all that really matters. Chars in those tiers need amazing players to have any success

Like Sakurai.

HE IS ENTERTAINER

bad or not it doesn't matter. it's just like saying CF is better than Ganon, it's not true.

 

[Darknid]

which high tier does Ike beat? Hell, which non-bottom tier does Ike beat?

 

[choknater]

I'm sure a good enough Ike player can beat most of the bottom tiers. People's pre-conceived notions about matchups usually dont apply to great players of given characters

like my sheik

i am amazing

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Well we'd all like to write our own reviews wouldn't we?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well we'd all like to write our own reviews wouldn't we?

I can vouch for choknater.

choknater's shiek is epically amazing.

 

[WingedKnight]

Hmmm, djbrowny's tier list is intriguing. I agree with Diddy and Wario jumping up. Olimar is rightfully ahea of Marth (agreed with some, Marth is good, but a bit overrated), but he may even belong ahead of G&W. MAYBE! Snake and MK in the same tier is a good start, this SS Tier has GOT to go! Meta's still a beast, but he sure isn't the unbeatable broken monster everyone was scared of back in January. Personally, I think MK and Snake could be in the same tier as the rest of the top, but if you want to keep them apart and label that "Top", it works too. I think the ICs are a bit high, and Bowser shouldnt be quite that low. Maybe Pika ahead of Kirby thanks to CG? I dunno. Kirb is still probably overall better, but who knows.

 

[choknater]

Well we'd all like to write our own reviews wouldn't we?

You should try it sometime

I can vouch for choknater.

choknater's shiek is epically amazing.

man i dont even have new youtube videos and you know whats up

anyway: WingedKnight i think you're right about both MK and Snake being in their own top tier

or S tier if you wanna call it that

I think they deserve to be called on par sicne Snake players are REALLY stepping it up lately with great tactical improvements. mk is still ahead by a bit but no biggie, snake u got this

 

[Nidtendofreak]

which high tier does Ike beat? Hell, which non-bottom tier does Ike beat?

Right off the bat, Ike has a 6-4 advantage over the ICs. I'll put up the current numbers right now (lol copy+past from first post in this topic). No ratio = no discussion yet, "*" means re-discussion is needed. These are from memory, so one or two might be off.

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00 35-65

S Tier
Snake 13.91 4-6*

A Tier
Falco 13.03 3-7*
King Dedede 12.94 35-65
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50 45-55
Marth 12.09 4-6
Diddy Kong 11.94 45-55

B Tier
Wario 11.47 5-5
R.O.B. 11.38 4-6
Lucario 10.94 35-65
Olimar 10.94 3-7

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34 4-6*
Kirby 10.16 45-55
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59 6-4

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88 4-6*
Toon Link 8.47 4-6*
Pit 8.44 4-6
Peach 8.16 5-5*
Wolf 7.91 4-6

E Tier
Luigi 7.41 55-45
Zelda 7.03 55-45
Bowser 6.91 5-5* Pre-chain grab, now our favor for sure
Fox 6.66 5-5
Sheik 6.44 4-6
Ike 5.91 Ditto Match

F Tier
Mario 4.56 Not "officially" done, but we came to 5-5 when at the Mario boards
Lucas 4.50 5-5
Ness 4.50 5-5
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16 5-5
Pokémon Trainer 3.94 55-45
Yoshi 3.66 5-5

G Tier
Link 2.28 45-55
Jigglypuff 2.03 6-4
Ganondorf 1.88 65-35
Captain Falcon 1.63

Yes, a lot of 4-6s, but on the other hand there aren't a lot of "lol ****'d" match-ups, with a few noticeable evens (45-55 to 55-45 range) in the higher tiers. He has no "impossible" match-ups (Kirk beats Olimars, which is by far our worse match-up, as does Ryko so it's do able), and these match-ups obviously are just averages, and don't go into stages. Often, there are at least two stages in which the ratio changes in Ike's favor which we can use to our benefit, such as Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, and Pirate Ship for VSing Olimar, with only one stage that really hurts Ike (Jungle Japes).

I'm not saying he has great match-ups, or even good ones, but it's far from terrible like some people seem to think. I did an average before with a couple different numbers and it came out to be 47-53 on average, and we haven't even gotten to add Falcon in yet. Most of his match-ups are very manageable once you get knowledge of how to fight the character.

 

[Darknid]

I'm sure a good enough Ike player can beat most of the bottom tiers. People's pre-conceived notions about matchups usually dont apply to great players of given characters

like my sheik

i am amazing

Yeah but couldn't you say the same about any low tier? I'm sure Mario, Ness and Yoshi have much more potential than Ike. You could say a great Ike could beat the average bottom tiers, but could a great ike really beat a great Mario or Ness or whoever? If you are going to compare the best of the best, I'd like to see a great Ike beating Deva, Boss or any other great players that play low tiers. But even so..you're not doing it right. If you're going to assume that the low tiers will be your average pro player, you must assume the same for Ike as far as the tier list is concerned. I see no reason other than D3 to place Ike above the likes of Mario, Ness and Yoshi. But I am not dogging Ike, though, he is just overrated(just like his buddy Marth..)

 

[WingedKnight]

Chok, your absolutely right. Meta Knight is still, plain and simple, better than Snake. But MK's metagame has kinda come to a screeching halt. He's an exceptional character: he's just kinda limited and new stuff doesn't come up. Snake is in a more constant state of evolution, and like you said they have been working the tactics for serious. Meta is still the best, but not a whole tier above the next character below him. He was never THAT good, not even during the ban-craze.
Maybe I'm just biased, as I main the Dream Land trio. But Meta just isn't a mile above the rest of the cast like everyone once thought. Hopefully they change this SS garbage on the June list.

 

[Darknid]

Right off the bat, Ike has a 6-4 advantage over the ICs. I'll put up the current numbers right now (lol copy+past from first post in this topic). No ratio = no discussion yet, "*" means re-discussion is needed. These are from memory, so one or two might be off.

SS Tier
Meta Knight 15.00 35-65

S Tier
Snake 13.91 4-6*

A Tier
Falco 13.03 3-7*
King Dedede 12.94 35-65
Mr. Game & Watch 12.50 45-55
Marth 12.09 4-6
Diddy Kong 11.94 45-55

B Tier
Wario 11.47 5-5
R.O.B. 11.38 4-6
Lucario 10.94 35-65
Olimar 10.94 3-7

C Tier
Pikachu 10.34 4-6*
Kirby 10.16 45-55
Donkey Kong 10.06
Ice Climbers 9.59 6-4

D Tier
Zero Suit Samus 8.88 4-6*
Toon Link 8.47 4-6*
Pit 8.44 4-6
Peach 8.16 5-5*
Wolf 7.91 4-6

E Tier
Luigi 7.41 55-45
Zelda 7.03 55-45
Bowser 6.91 5-5* Pre-chain grab, now our favor for sure
Fox 6.66 5-5
Sheik 6.44 4-6
Ike 5.91 Ditto Match

F Tier
Mario 4.56 Not "officially" done, but we came to 5-5 when at the Mario boards
Lucas 4.50 5-5
Ness 4.50 5-5
Samus 4.41
Sonic 4.16 5-5
Pokémon Trainer 3.94 55-45
Yoshi 3.66 5-5

G Tier
Link 2.28 45-55
Jigglypuff 2.03 6-4
Ganondorf 1.88 65-35
Captain Falcon 1.63

Yes, a lot of 4-6s, but on the other hand there aren't a lot of "lol ****'d" match-ups, with a few noticeable evens (45-55 to 55-45 range) in the higher tiers. He has no "impossible" match-ups (Kirk beats Olimars, which is by far our worse match-up, as does Ryko so it's do able), and these match-ups obviously are just averages, and don't go into stages. Often, there are at least two stages in which the ratio changes in Ike's favor which we can use to our benefit, such as Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, and Pirate Ship for VSing Olimar, with only one stage that really hurts Ike (Jungle Japes).

I'm not saying he has great match-ups, or even good ones, but it's far from terrible like some people seem to think. I did an average before with a couple different numbers and it came out to be 47-53 on average, and we haven't even gotten to add Falcon in yet. Most of his match-ups are very manageable once you get knowledge of how to fight the character.

A lot of those matchups seem like you simply slapped a 50-50 on there and called it a day. I mean come on..Almost even with Diddy Kong? Does that make sense? Even with Sonic? Was that really explored? Was Wario really explored? Even with Lucas and Ness? It really doesn't seem like the work has been done here.