The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[BOB SAGET!]

Please, do not waste your time arguing with this isolate waste of space; it will get you nowhere.

And when he quotes me with a moronic, meaningless comment about his opinion of tiers, ignore him. There is no point hassling yourself.

Why would this fool throw away his time advancing to our competitive Smash community telling us how to play? If you think tiers do not exist or "R 4 Queers." We could care less. This is just how we develop the metagame of Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

TL;DR: Get over yourself.

im not telling u how to play its the other way around actually. im just saying my opinion if dont agree with it than why do u care so much. " isolate waste of space" whatever makes u sleep at night.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

You're entitled to opinion, but others can weigh its value.

What you say is in a sense true, every character can be played equally well, in the sense that every character has some sort of maximum potential to be brought out (whether its been fully discovered or not is another subject)....

...however...

...Your opinion is uneducated. Fighting games are like a game of chess, an intellectual battle field when taken seriously. Though obviously there is a key difference. Picking a specific character is analogous to changing the number and type of pieces each player would have in a chess match. Its like having one player start with three bishops and one less rook (Specifically placed of course) and the other having four rooks and no knights (or picking a different character.)

A fighting game like brawl where each character has so many more properties in a single attack then each piece individually has in chess is impossible to balance perfectly. A lot of times having 4 rooks is better then three bishops...

Take a game where there a 20 characters that are all exactly the same except for one whose attacks all do an extra hp/percent of damage. That character would be instantly better then all the others, even if slightly so. Even if you try to balance it out by say, making his attack slightly slower, you would either make that character worse or better then all the others. If your changing the characteristics of characters there will be imbalance.

The only way for a fighting game to be perfectly balanced would be if all the characters were exactly the same, and that game would never sell and be boring as hell. Its basic design. The best thing they can do is minimize that imbalance will still making the game diverse and otherwise fun.

Like I said, you're entitled to an opinion. However, when opinions stray into the realm of facts, they lose.

Fight a DeDeDe worth his salt using DK, see what happens, and get back to us.

brawl is very unique and can evolve over time. new strategies can be produced with any character. in this unique game, with many combos, dodges, etc it is impossible to reach a charcters full potential. plus the sbr is a bit opinion oriented. fox is rated low here but in japan hes rated very high.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Funny. This guy reminds me of the actual Tourettes Guy.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I still want your definition of "tier list."

 

[Xiahou Dun]

I'm interested in his definition of "Opinion" : D

 

[Umby]

brawl is very unique and can evolve over time. new strategies can be produced with any character. in this unique game, with many combos, dodges, etc it is impossible to reach a charcters full potential. plus the sbr is a bit opinion oriented. fox is rated low here but in japan hes rated very high.

A tier list doesn't measure characters' potential. It shows the current overall ranking at the specific time when the list was made. Ergo it constantly changes.

 

[Lenus Altair]

What you say is in a sense true, every character can be played equally well, in the sense that every character has some sort of maximum potential to be brought out (whether its been fully discovered or not is another subject)....

brawl is very unique and can evolve over time. new strategies can be produced with any character. in this unique game, with many combos, dodges, etc it is impossible to reach a charcters full potential. plus the sbr is a bit opinion oriented. fox is rated low here but in japan hes rated very high.

Bold for emphasis. Did you read what I posted?

Yes, new discoveries can be found changing our understanding of characters. A tier lit represents our current understanding, the current metagame, based on what we currently believe to be a characters full potential.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. KNOWN TECHNIQUES. no character is better than another because tiers only rate charcters based on KNOWN TECHNIQUES. so every character has the same potential, but some are closer to almost being close to reaching it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. KNOWN TECHNIQUES. no character is better than another because tiers only rate charcters based on KNOWN TECHNIQUES. so every character has the same potential, but some are closer to almost being close to reaching it.

Wow, I said I wanted YOUR definition, I didn't say I wanted you to copy and paste from smashwiki.

But now that you have, actually read that and try to understand it, maybe then you'll understand why your opinion is misinformed and... well, wrong.

And there will be very few more character-metagame-changing techniques discovered. Characters are better than others just by their characteristics, since each is different. Of course a character like CF won't be nearly as good as MK because of the way his attacks work.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Please just PLEAZ discuss the important stuff.

Are we really so bored we are arguing with someone who just does not want to change his mind?

 

[Lenus Altair]

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. KNOWN TECHNIQUES. no character is better than another because tiers only rate charcters based on KNOWN TECHNIQUES. so every character has the same potential, but some are closer to almost being close to reaching it.

If its not know, players can't apply the technique, making it irrelevant.

Just because a character may have more potential doesn't mean all characters full potentials are equal.

 

[choknater]

Aw, he was actually banned :'C

Why? He still had time to learn! Why silence a man with arguments and beliefs?

Well, he double posted lol...

Oh well, and I guess the topic title explains the nature of tiers anyway haha

 

[Negi-Kun]

im not telling u how to play its the other way around actually.

Sir, you obviously do not have the brain capacity to understand what I am trying to imply.

We never tell you how to play. Name one place you have seen a man such as yourself attempt to convince the casual community that the "right way to play" is competitively.

im just saying my opinion if dont agree with it than why do u care so much. " isolate waste of space" whatever makes u sleep at night.

We should be telling you this. Why do you spam that our opinions are wrong with "TR4Q"? You are putting up no argument whatsoever. I advise you to find some common sense in yourself before you do something even more foolish.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Aw, he was actually banned :'C

Why? He still had time to learn! Why silence a man with arguments and beliefs?

Well, he double posted lol...

Oh well, and I guess the topic title explains the nature of tiers anyway haha

Yeah, that's a little unnecessary.
Oh well, what difference will one more person who thinks the Smash community is terrible make?

 

[Umby]

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. KNOWN TECHNIQUES. no character is better than another because tiers only rate charcters based on KNOWN TECHNIQUES. so every character has the same potential, but some are closer to almost being close to reaching it.

Nice way to assume every character has the same potential.

So what if tiers rate characters based on the current metagame? That's it's general purpose. It's not going to say that certain characters are going to stay better or worse in the future. The metagame is still developing. As it does, so will the tier list. That's what it means to reflect the current metagame, after all.

 

[choknater]

I think he was banned because he created that dumb thread haha.

Anyway, I do think all the characters have HIGH and UNTAPPED potential, esp. characters who are weakly represented. But it's not all equal, since they are all different, of course, lol.

Hence, tears.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

lol, kicking the man down while hes down.

He needs to learn that no matter what, he needs proof to show that his "opinoins" as fact.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Aw, he was actually banned :'C

Why? He still had time to learn! Why silence a man with arguments and beliefs?

I guess not being very likable or intelligent is a bannable offense now. Unless I'm missing something else he did a ban was pretty unwarranted. :/

 

[Negi-Kun]

It was only a matter of time; I suppose everyday Anti-Tiers like that ill-advised troll deserve to be banned.

Admittedly, the Tourettes Guy is pretty funny, heh.

 

[Umby]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228596

This is probably the reason for his ban.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228596

This is probably the reason for his ban.

And the fact he was plain old trolling. >_> Surprised he lasted 22 posts.

Anyhow......someone pull this topic back on topic pls.

Oh, I know: How much do you think Pikachu's Dthrow chaingrab will affect his placement in the next tier list?

 

[Xiahou Dun]

It was only a matter of time; I suppose everyday Anti-Tiers like that ill-advised troll deserve to be banned.

Admittedly, the Tourettes Guy is pretty funny, heh.

And the fact he was plain old trolling. >_> Surprised he lasted 22 posts.

Anyhow......someone pull this topic back on topic pls.

Oh, I know: How much do you think Pikachu's Dthrow chaingrab will affect his placement in the next tier list?

-.-"

*Sigh* Another day. Another forum full of people who have absolutely no idea about trolling at all, but still like to try and point it out every 15 seconds anyway.

 

[choknater]

*shrug* I don't think he was trolling, just simply earnest and misguided lol. Unless that's what trolling is....?

To Nidtendofreak: There are not a lot of pro high placing Pikachus besides Anther and maybe Veng, it would take some great and consistent Pikachu players to actually prove that the CG's would take him up the tier list by placing high and using them a lot, lol.

 

[arch knight]

what makes wolf and zero suit so low? both have decent damage deals and recovery. zeros third jump gives that boost to get back to the stage or close to the edge to grab it with the whip. Dsmash lock and combos work great with her.

With wolf his laser can cancel mks nado and drill as well as slow down approaches and with slanted stages like delfinos islands or yoshis island (brawl) his illusion works wonders.
his dthrow is good for spike set ups off the stage if you have the reaction time

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Something I have learned from GameFAQs: "Opinion" about a basic fact that goes against what everyone else says without any sort of real attempt of proof to back it up + little effort put into each post + not changing your "opinion" after proof of your "opinion" being wrong is brought up and/or with little to no attempt to counter said proof = trolling. Plain and simple. >_> I've seen that sort of anti-tier "logic" many times by well known trolls over there.

Pikachu topic: Just how many are we talking about though? A small rise in pikachu placements with the CG being noticeably used? Top 8 in major tournaments by more people then Anther?

 

[arch knight]

i rarely see any pikas CG most ive played spam dsmash and thunder. Only a few pikas i know either have good understanding of the char or have a great air game which makes it hard for me to hit them because of the knockback or less lag moves

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Something I have learned from GameFAQs

Hehehehehehe. Yeah I stopped paying attention about there...

Simply put sometimes trolls pretend to be stupid. That doesn't justify the leap in logic to Stupid people=Trolls.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hehehehehehe. Yeah I stopped paying attention about there...

Simply put sometimes trolls pretend to be stupid. That doesn't justify the leap in logic to Stupid people=Trolls.

If someone is stupid/ignorant, they will accept logic, or at least respond to it.

If someone is trolling, they will ignore logic and keep saying the same things over and over. He was ignoring logic.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

If someone is stupid/ignorant, they will accept logic, or at least respond to it.

If someone is trolling, they will ignore logic and keep saying the same things over and over. He was ignoring logic.

Not at all.

 

[Anther]

lol.. pika's cg on snake is awesome..

 

[choknater]

Cute Pika avatar haha.

How high % does it go

 

[da K.I.D.]

pika is top tier,

he has rediculous CGs (mostly on top tiers)

he has setups for his grabs

and the added bonus of needing to get an opponent to 20% (with a different CG) in order to get teh full bonus from his CG. so its not like falco in that you can damage yourself in order to get away from the CG, cause it actually makes it more dangerous

pika for top tier

 

[Anther]

The snake one just leads to a high percentage when you get it to work, and when you mess up they end up ready to be edgeguarded or a grab that leads to a backthrow to get them back off the stage.

I don't know the exact mechanics of it though, but if snake loses his jump somewhere in there he's pretty messed up...

 

[woody72691]

all in favor of changing this up to make it better say "I"

 

[choknater]

Pikachu has amazing matchups against some of the top tiers

falco ddd snake lol you name it

In fact I dunno if Pikachu has any bad matchups (maybe MK? but who cares about him lol)

 

[da K.I.D.]

as funny as it is, I think wolf gives pika a hard time.

It seems like pika gets out spammed, and out spaced pretty hard.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Pikachu has amazing matchups against some of the top tiers

falco ddd snake lol you name it

In fact I dunno if Pikachu has any bad matchups (maybe MK? but who cares about him lol)

Despite those good match ups, pikachu has 2 killer top tier match-ups that destroy pikachu. G&W and Marth. Those match ups are like 60-40, 65-35 against pikachu. Then you have everyone between marth and pikachu on the tier list that has a slight advantage over pikachu. So while pikachu makes a nice counter against some of the top characters it is still difficult for pikachu to win a tourney on it's own with other high tier characters in the way.

 

[BentoBox]

60-40 is very far from the end of the world...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Apprently my point I was trying to make was not recieved how I expected it to be.

I was trying to point out that pikachu does indeed have some bad match ups. And if anyone was going to continue the conversation with rankings for pikachu next tier list, I was adding that there are still a lot of other match-ups that prohibit pikachu from being able to move much higher than they already are.

 

[choknater]

Despite those good match ups, pikachu has 2 killer top tier match-ups that destroy pikachu. G&W and Marth. Those match ups are like 60-40, 65-35 against pikachu. Then you have everyone between marth and pikachu on the tier list that has a slight advantage over pikachu. So while pikachu makes a nice counter against some of the top characters it is still difficult for pikachu to win a tourney on it's own with other high tier characters in the way.

Perhaps you can secondary Metaknight when that happens LOL!

j/k

But anyways, with a fast and adaptable character like Pikachu, I doubt that any matchup "ratios" are truly set in stone.

Marth? Bah. I bet I can beat them Marths with Pika.