Darknid
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2008
- Messages
- 449
Your comments were true, but this doesn't put Yoshi below falcon and ****.Darknid, I left my comments above.
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Your comments were true, but this doesn't put Yoshi below falcon and ****.Darknid, I left my comments above.
I didn't say he was below Falcon (I think someone else did). I said he was bottom tier. He just can't answer to stuff when his plans are figured out. And you didn't answer my question on the air camping. What were you trying to get out of that?Your comments were true, but this doesn't put Yoshi below falcon and ****.
okay, i see where youre getting at, but telling me bowsers options just gives me further info on how to **** him LOL. also, i like sheik better, so i will probably play her and transform to zelda at like 120 or 130 (since its bowser) with fresh KO movesReally, there is no need to play Sheik against Bowser because Zelda is a better choice anyway on him and can lock down several more of Bowser's options. She has better abilities of killing him off, racking damage on him and she also has no trouble getting out of the chaingrab.
Gimping Bowser is not as easy as it sounds - Fortress has invincibility frames and generally insanely high priority. He's definitely not as easy to gimp as the spacies. =P
Also, don't underestimate Bowser's speed. It's not like you run in, can do a hit and run away again. FAir, FTilt, Jab, Grab and Klaw are insanely quick. Since sheik is a lot in the air, she also could have to eat an UTilt - one of Bowser's best moves overall.
Well, since you didn't do much but explain how dolphin slash is the most broken move in the game and how Marth is so fast and his sword is so long that lasers and illusions don't matter because you will never escape him(even though I often outspace him as Bowser, DK and even Zard), I'd like to concentrate on your answer to my question which still wasn't very clear. So you'd take D3 out to place Marth into the top 5? Well, I strongly disagree. Oh, you said D3 will fall..Well then, if he falls, why do you think Marth would replace him on that list over, say, Wario or Falco? Or DK for that matter, if D3 is indeed going to fall.Let us be realistic, MK and Snake arent going anywhere.
DDD may fall due to his bad matcups with some characters same with Wario(though warios are scattered not based in high and t0 like marth.)
Let alone when did we just to tierlist rather than matchup?
lolokay, i see where youre getting at, but telling me bowsers options just gives me further info on how to **** him LOL [...]
While not as effective, Yoshi can air camp similarly to Wario, except Yoshi has a projectile to annoy people with.I didn't say he was below Falcon (I think someone else did). I said he was bottom tier. He just can't answer to stuff when his plans are figured out. And you didn't answer my question on the air camping. What were you trying to get out of that?
I confess i was trollin the shiz out of u
Bowser *****.
I like it when people bring up things that were never said.darknid said:Well, since you didn't do much but explain how dolphin slash is the most broken move in the game
Really Is aid it was inescapable? Where?darknid said:and how Marth is so fast and his sword is so long that lasers and illusions don't matter because you will never escape him
All of which have better range than Marth with several of their moves.darknid said:(even though I often outspace him as Bowser, DK and even Zard)
We were just discussing Falco vs marth.darknid said:stuff
The egg is basically an Anti-Air projectile. He doesn't have the drop like it used to in melee (if it did, Yoshi would go up from that). So using it in the air is worthless cause it will barely go past horizontal range from when he threw it.While not as effective, Yoshi can air camp similarly to Wario, except Yoshi has a projectile to annoy people with.
yes sir hahaIf you're an amazing Sheik who can deal easily with disadvantageous MUs, then that's cool, but that doesn't make her overall better in that match - only in your case. If you catch my drift. ^^
I was exaggerating, not quoting you. I actually asked this question before we discussed falco vs marth. Now answer it.
I like it when people bring up things that were never said.
Really Is aid it was inescapable? Where?
Proof now or STFU.
All of which have better range than Marth with several of their moves.
Stop failing.
We were just discussing Falco vs marth.
WHy are you going off on this other tangent?
I'll discuss it after we finish with Falco and Marth unless you feel you conceided the matter.
I wasn't talking about using it in the air, that wouldn't work.The egg is basically an Anti-Air projectile. He doesn't have the drop like it used to in melee (if it did, Yoshi would go up from that). So using it in the air is worthless cause it will barely go past horizontal range from when he threw it.
While yoshi has the fastest aerial top speed, his acceleration sucks hardcore compared to it. Wario can at least fake his opponents to think they're gonna land closer than they believe, but when Yoshi attempts that, he'll get screwed cause he can't go in the opposite way fast enough to keep him safe.
lol, that's true. Wario is too good.Wario spits on your scrub characters and scrubish techniques
Wario is truth.
All hail.
Exaggerating the statements of the person you debate with is insulting to the opponent and detracts from the validity of the debate.I was exaggerating,
You know, if you ask me.I actually asked this question before we discussed falco vs marth. Now answer it.
I've asked this several times. You actually semi-answered it. Who would you take out of a top 5 list to put Marth in? you said D3 will fall..Well, if that happens, I'd say Wario and DK both have priority over Marth in the event of D3 fallingExaggerating the statements of the person you debate with is insulting to the opponent and detracts from the validity of the debate.
DON'T DO IT
You know, if you ask me.
How can he approach?
And I answer
then perhaps that wasn't your question?
Re-state it clearly then so I can answer it in case I misunderstood.
Darknid, even if DK has top/high tier matchups as good as Marths, he cannot be in top tier simply because his matchups against the mid and low tiers are WELL below the usual standerd of the Top tier. For pete's sake, SAMUS has a neutral/very slight advantage on him. NOBODY highly regarded as Top tier has anything worse than 1 disadvantaged matchup against anybody in Mid/Low (except DDD if you beleive he is disadvantaged to both Zelda and Shiek if you count Zero Suit as High)).I've asked this several times. You actually semi-answered it. Who would you take out of a top 5 list to put Marth in? you said D3 will fall..Well, if that happens, I'd say Wario and DK both have priority over Marth in the event of D3 falling
Yeah, because it's mid tiers, and not high tiers that you have to worry about in tourneys and competitive play. Samus? that's it? How many samus mains do you honestly see? and even so that's an even matchup, especially since Samus doesn't kill DK until like 500.Darknid, even if DK has top/high tier matchups as good as Marths, he cannot be in top tier simply because his matchups against the mid and low tiers are WELL below the usual standerd of the Top tier. For pete's sake, SAMUS has a neutral/very slight advantage on him. NOBODY highly regarded as Top tier has anything worse than 1 disadvantaged matchup against anybody in Mid/Low (except DDD if you beleive he is disadvantaged to both Zelda and Shiek if you count Zero Suit as High)).
HOW SUGGESTIVE.I don't know what came over me.
Mid tiers still happen. Whether or not they're common is irrelevant. Marth DOES have slightly better matchups and that's enough.Yeah, because it's mid tiers, and not high tiers that you have to worry about in tourneys and competitive play.
Bowser's trouble is that the properties of his good moves just aren't that good.
How? Bowsers recovery is very hard to gimp. There are a lot of recoveries out there that are easier. If bowser is near the stage, he can use up b and get there quite quick since it's a pretty fast move. If he's far he can jump and DI in and then recover and seeing how bowser is the heaviest/tied for heaviest char getting him far off won't happen until higher damage. Plus, When you DO go for a gimp, we can up B before you do and take advantage of UB's invincibility frames and very good priority.A fairly exploitable recovery
If the bowser players using his laggy moves to often he's playing wrong., a fairly obvious moveset...while he does have power, his powerful moves aren't too hard to avoid, given his bad jumping and lag on many of his powerful moves.
His chaingrab is overrated, although so is Yoshi's--Bowser's grab is terrible, so if an opponent just stays near an edge or plays on platforms (if they're around, which they usually are), they can usually outmaneuver Bowser with their own aerials and stuff. Even if you do grab, it's not a lot of damage outside of the last hit (which is usually F-Tilt or F-Air, I think), while a missed grab can mean your ***, given how big Bowser is.
Camping isn't very good against bowser (read the rest before you kill me for that). I mean that it isn't something new or amazing that will wreck bowser. Power shielding is quite easy and bowsers shield is also big enough for him to get far. Bowser can use ^b which clings with quite a bit of projectiles thanks to high priority and invincibility frames. It also cancels automatically when hit. Sheik can't camp us very well can't say anything about the other two but there matchup isn't that bad for bowser (44-55 each). Combo's in brawl?!?!?! Seriously though the can juggle him but we can get out and fortress is usually a good way.Bowser is TERRIBLY easy to camp with many characters, who can already do silly combos to Bowser (Sheik, Wario, Falco, here's looking at you).
Good character against aggressive opponents if you know what you're doing (Up-B out of shield is nice, and Bowser tends to outrange a fair amount of people with single-hit exchanges), but he just can't approach well enough (or force others to approach well enough) to be considered anything more than Low Tier, I believe.
...they will be facing an extremely maneuverable Bowser.so if an opponent [...] plays on platforms (if they're around, which they usually are)...
Wow, that's really impressive of Bowser. He moves so fast through the air! Is battlefield a good stage for Bowser?...they will be facing an extremely maneuverable Bowser.
Hmmm. That means it also works on Norfair. That seems kind of intimidating.It already was pretty good for him in the first place due to him being able to USmash/UTilt/UAir through the platforms nicely and its small size... but with this, it makes it even better. ^^
It works on all drop through platforms, too.
God, that's too much. I thought it would be bad because he couldn't do so many chain release grab shenanigans. Is that what I should consider banning against him? Or will he just be fine on a flat stage like FD?Yes. Norfair was Bowser's best stage to begin with, due to many ledges. XD
Yeah. Bowsers LOVE norfair. Prevents quite a bit of bowsers weaknesses from taking effect (like camping). With this he'll be even better there :DGod, that's too much. I thought it would be bad because he couldn't do so many chain release grab shenanigans. Is that what I should consider banning against him? Or will he just be fine on a flat stage like FD?
Which is why I'll never do it. Even if I'm an "aerial specialist".Yes, Zamus is good... she should definitely rise.
And draconoa, CPing Norfair against Bowser will make the Bowser player incredibly happy. XD
Maybe Pit. He is one of the few characters that can still camp Norfair, and loves it in general anyway with ledge camping and sharking uair.Basically that stage - even without the Side B Cancelling - allows him to maneuver easily due to the many ledges. He also can cancel the Side B on the lava (hence Bowsers also like Brinstar); he generally also is able to make good use of the Klaw in this stage. Not to mention... you will see hundreds of his UTilts and USmashes on this stage. 8D
Bowser is too good on Norfair. Except for MK, I can't think of any character who does better than Bowser on it. ^^