The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0

[ShadowLink84]

*shrugs*

No one who is currently under Ike should move up above him, as none of them have what it takes to do so. They specialize in less things then Ike does. Ness has his throws, aerials, spikes, and projectiles. Lucas has his recovery and projectiles. Sonic has his speed, recovery, tournament results, and mind games. Mario has his juggling and gimping. Yoshi has Chain Grabs and All Around speed. Ike has Jab Games, Grab Releases, Spiking, All Around Range, and All Around Power.

IIRC ike doesnt have any rab releases except for aerial ones and only on a few characters.


he has high range and high power but no speed and relies on what little he has. Nor does he spike often.



Sonic should be above if only because he has better tournament results.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

IIRC ike doesnt have any rab releases except for aerial ones and only on a few characters.


he has high range and high power but no speed and relies on what little he has. Nor does he spike often.



Sonic should be above if only because he has better tournament results.

*points to the list I posted of grab releases* He actually has a lot.

3 frame jab = no speed? 7 frame Bair that hits like a mach truck = no speed? 20 IASA frames on a smash attack = no speed? ACing Nair and Bair = no speed? Ike has speed, you just can't be spamming Fsmash like an idiot. >_>

And Ike actually spikes a fair bit. Particularly with reverse aether. And then there is all of the spiking fun on Pirate Ship and Delfino. ^_^

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well, looking at the Torney results tier list, I see many differences.

Like how is PT and Sonic the top of C tier lol.

Luigi is just... WOW!.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*points to the list I posted of grab releases* He actually has a lot.

Those are air releases not ground releases.
I looked and unless I missed soemthing (do point out if I had) he only has a ground release on the motherboys.

3 frame jab = no speed? 7 frame Bair that hits like a mach truck = no speed?[/quote]
yay two moves!

20 IASA frames on a smash attack = no speed?

Definitely no speed.

ACing Nair and Bair = no speed? Ike has speed, you just can't be spamming Fsmash like an idiot. >_>

Ike doesnt have speed overall.
Only a handful of moves can be considered as fast
bair ad jab being his quckest.
in general though Ike is not a fast character.


Saying Ike has plenty of speed when you ca only name 4 moves says alot.
Let alone that you are saying a 20 frame move is fast is well, yeah.

And Ike actually spikes a fair bit. Particularly with reverse aether. And then there is all of the spiking fun on Pirate Ship and Delfino. ^_^

When you get spiked by an aether you know you recovered wrong.

When you are getting spiked for jumping in the water like a fool, you are doing it wrong.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Seeing how much we use Jab, Ikes play a fairly quick ground game. And we stick with either our Fair with the lovely IASA frames so it's hard to punish (impossible outside of a projectile for a lot of characters), or our ACing aerials. Or aerials that outlast dodging attempts, take your pick.

When you get spiked by an aether you know you recovered wrong.

When you are getting spiked for jumping in the water like a fool, you are doing it wrong.

1) I guess Bowser and DK almost always recover wrong then. Because they are VERY easy prey to reverse aether if they want to avoid landing lag.

2) Because Ike sits in the water the entire time on Pirate Ship. >_> Obviously we knock them into the water. Which is very easy to do as Ike. lol jab combo.

And we spike in other ways. Heck, a simple B-throw off the stage works fairly well. Or Jab1 -> Jab 2 -> Walk-off Dair, which Ryko has pulled off multiple times because it's doable.

Ike gets a good number of kills from spikes, the number is smaller then it could be because every freaking move outside of 3 throws are kill moves.



BTW, that was 20 frames of reduced lag, not 20 frames in total. >_>

And I noticed you avoided the grab release comment in your rebuttal.

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi has much better grab releases than both of them. Yoshi also can punish better than ike(as far as damage, im not talking bout fsmash on a down bing bowser, i mean in general), because of his amazing bair and grab combos, and yoshi doesnt get ***** by projectiles like ike does, while yoshi can outcamp a large majority of the cast, including some like falco(sort of, depends on distance), and sometimes snake as well. Yoshi also has more air mobility than ike and can go far out to edge guard, while having a hard to gimp recovery.

Get at me!

 

[Kinzer]

I can't be sure on this, but doesn't Ike like, Jab everybody on ground release?

If that's true, compared to Sonic's non-Ness ground releases... :/

I still remember how BA Ike's jab is. Being able to deal 16% damage, refresh his moves as well as being able to kill (what does Ike have that doesn't kill anyway...?), being able to cancel if need be, blah blah blah.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Seeing how much we use Jab, Ikes play a fairly quick ground game. And we stick with either our Fair with the lovely IASA frames so it's hard to punish (impossible outside of a projectile for a lot of characters), or our ACing aerials. Or aerials that outlast dodging attempts, take your pick.

Except that is all he has on the ground. His jab.
Can you honestly say that Ike's jab game is enough for his ground game? yes it is good and it has incredible jab cancels and the like, but is from saying he has a quick ground game.

yes Ike can try to space the opponent, he is defensive, but in the face of projectiles he is forced to be offensive. Characters like Sonic who can get in very quickly can also pressure him hard.
Ike has his jab game but there are other characters who truly have a better ground game.

1) I guess Bowser and DK almost always recover wrong then. Because they are VERY easy prey to reverse aether if they want to avoid landing lag.

Then let me retract and be more specific. in general, the reverse aether does not work on the whole of the cast, ebcause most, if not all are capable of recovering perfectly well vertically. So aether spiking typically does not occur.

2) Because Ike sits in the water the entire time on Pirate Ship. >_>

And why would someone bother going after Ike while he is in the water?
Its not like he can force you to come to him.

Obviously we knock them into the water. Which is very easy to do as Ike. lol jab combo.

LOL DI.
Its not knocking them into the water very easily.

And we spike in other ways. Heck, a simple B-throw off the stage works fairly well.

Yeah Ryko did that to me when Iw as a fellow Ike.

Or Jab1 -> Jab 2 -> Walk-off Dair, which Ryko has pulled off multiple times because it's doable.

Ryko pulls it off because he knows it is not expected. He'll tell you too, there is tons of crap that gets pulled off that should not be done and is usually an error on the opponents part.

Ike gets a good number of kills from spikes, the number is smaller then it could be because every freaking move outside of 3 throws are kill moves.

four spikes.

Aether
nuetral B 9good luck with that)
Dair
Dtilt

Since we know eutral B and dtilt are extremely hard to land we'll ignore those.
Aether spiking can work but only on a few characters who tend to have mostly horizontal recoveries liek DK and bowser, or mediocre recoveries.
Dair can be used off a B throw can lead o a spike but it is not a guaranteed.

BTW, that was 20 frames of reduced lag, not 20 frames in total. >_>

My error then, mainly since I always hear people referring to IASA frames upon the frame it kicks in.
MK's 15 frames etc etc.

Regardless thouh, the very first hit of that move comes out very late.

And I noticed you avoided the grab release comment in your rebuttal.

Check my edit. I was playing GOW2 so I was rather hasty in my posting.

Ike only has air grab releases.
Gruond grab release only occurs on the mother boys because they get screwed by 40 or so frames.

DK will punish you if you ground release him.


@kinzer: no he doesn't. The same time Ike gets out o the ground is the same as everyone else except the mother boys, Bowser and DK(when ground released only)

Aerial release he has some follows up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

@_@ Note to self: next time start flame war with only one rabid low tier character board at a time.....particularly if still fighting a headache.

Yoshi has much better grab releases than both of them. Yoshi also can punish better than ike(as far as damage, im not talking bout fsmash on a down bing bowser, i mean in general), because of his amazing bair and grab combos, and yoshi doesnt get ***** by projectiles like ike does, while yoshi can outcamp a large majority of the cast, including some like falco(sort of, depends on distance), and sometimes snake as well. Yoshi also has more air mobility than ike and can go far out to edge guard, while having a hard to gimp recovery.

Get at me!

Ike can punish almost any ground based move with jab. Which in itself leads to other things. He can deal a lot of % punishment. Heck, he doesn't even need to, he's KOing insanely early.

Ike doesn't get ***** by most projectiles. Falco's lasers? Yes, who doesn't. Luigi's Fireballs, Ivy's side B, and stuff like that? lol no. He can just jab most of that stuff out, or better yet: walk and powershield. Really, not that hard. It's not ****, it's a minor annoyance most of the time. The projectiles that can **** Ike are Falco's lasers, Pikmin, Pikachu's Thunder bolt(stage dependent. This REALLY sucks at Jungle Japes for example), Wolf's laser to a small degree, Toon Link's wall of projectiles, Link's wall of projectiles to a lesser degree, and thats it.

Yes, Yoshi can go farther out. Because he has to due to his lesser amount of KOing power.

@Shadowlink

About grab releases: The thing is, he's tall enough he doesn't have to rely on his opponent spamming the jump button on a lot of them, unlike Sonic who does. Ike also has his walk-off fairs, which send characters into dead zones quickly.

About ground game: I never said Ike has the best ground game. That belongs to Snake. I said he has a workable one. Jabs, like mentioned, Grabs, particularly B-throw -> dash attack which is guaranteed on the majority of the cast at various ranges. 0-100% on Ganondorf for example, but either 20%-100 or 40% to 100% on the lightest character he can use this on. I do remember that somehow Sonic is an oddball and can escape this all of the time, but there are lighter characters that can't, Utilt as an anti-aerial wall, etc. And bluntly, thats all he needs to quickly get characters into KOing range.

About Pirate Ship: I know from experience at tournaments that it's easy for Ike to knock people into the water. The ship is an average sized platform, with large side blastzones. It doesn't take much, maybe 40%, before characters start hitting the water. Otherwise this wouldn't be as much of a **** stage for Ike.

About Spikes: Almost every single spike in the game is about it being unexpected. How many true combos are there into spikes in Brawl? Not a whole lot.


Now to get another aspirin, because the first one isn't working.

 

[Kinzer]

Don't go killing yourself due to an overswarmdosage now.

I dunno about rabid, but the only ones I see showing signs of life are the Yoshi and Sonic boards, I dunno where anybody else is. It won't help you if you make it seem like you have more work for yourself.

Anyway... There was something else I was going to say, but I forgot... hold on please.

Oh that's right, I was going to find some earlier posts and quote and reply to them.

Come on, noone wants to argue why his/her main should move up?

I mean, don't leave this haniging .

I was about to come in this thread and just somehow bump it to see if I could get anybody to spark some discussion. Looks like I was beaten to the pawnch.

I also love how the hot-topic is the low tiers. Seems that a lot of people acknowledge that the lower half is badly messed up, while everybody else knows where the upper half are.

I honestly think Peach should go higher. >_>

How much higher... you got anything to back it up?

This is so disapointing to see C.Falcon at the end of the very bottom of the list =p
I thought Ganondorf sucked even more than him in Brawl v_v'

I think Falcon/Ganon/Jiggles are all equally bad and should share the last spot.

Anybody want to argue why I might be wrong?

I belive that Ganon should be about 8 places higher, due to his fantastic defensive game.

Lucas should go down, ness should go down, link=down.

-SIEG

... :/

Ho- ... Eight...? I don't think even the Ganon mains would say he go up this high if any.

Lucas will probably be moving down 3 spots at the least... Ness isn't going anywhere, & Link is fine being the 4-6th worst character in the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

@_@ Note to self: next time start flame war with only one rabid low tier character board at a time.....particularly if still fighting a headache.

Thats a very lovely way to refer to people.

About grab releases: The thing is, he's tall enough he doesn't have to rely on his opponent spamming the jump button on a lot of them, unlike Sonic who does. Ike also has his walk-off fairs, which send characters into dead zones quickly.

What, you will have to clarify about the whole height issue because I am unsure as to what you are referring to exactly.

About ground game: I never said Ike has the best ground game. That belongs to Snake. I said he has a workable one. Jabs, like mentioned, Grabs, particularly B-throw -> dash attack which is guaranteed on the majority of the cast at various ranges. 0-100% on Ganondorf for example, but either 20%-100 or 40% to 100% on the lightest character he can use this on. I do remember that somehow Sonic is an oddball and can escape this all of the time, but there are lighter characters that can't, Utilt as an anti-aerial wall, etc. And bluntly, thats all he needs to quickly get characters into KOing range.

Ike has a great jab, but that is the fastest of his ground moves. He has no method of leading into his tilts other than through his jabs and his grabs.
The core part of his round game from which he can work is his jab.
He has a few guaranteed attacks like the Bthrow to dash attack but otherwise, the majority of the time Ike spends his time spacing himself.

In comparison to the rest of the cast, Ike's saving grace is primarily his jab which unfortunately, isnt enough because he relies so heavily upon it. He has no good GTFO move either for when he is being pressured.

hitting hard is great, but unfortunately, Ike has no method from which he can guarantee a kill move.
When I play Ryko, typically he cant get KO's until later percentages because of that issue. He has great power for sure, and yes his Fair can send many a character into dead zones, unfortunately, safe for a few characters (who recover poorly) he cant make use of that ability.

About Pirate Ship: I know from experience at tournaments that it's easy for Ike to knock people into the water.

The ship is an average sized platform, with large side blastzones. It doesn't take much, maybe 40%, before characters start hitting the water. Otherwise this wouldn't be as much of a **** stage for Ike.

What? How? Ike has no metho by which he sends the opponent directly into the water unless he spiked them or they fell in.

Even if they fall in the water,
Or they can simply stay away and play it safe because Ike cant go out and chase them for a spike very easily without it being broadcasted,
Ike really has no method by which he can just go out and take advantage of the water

About Spikes: Almost every single spike in the game is about it being unexpected. How many true combos are there into spikes in Brawl? Not a whole lot.

That means nothing.
Just because it is unexpected doesn't mean its good. it being unexpected means that the other play made an error, hence why they didn't expect it.

Now to get another aspirin, because the first one isn't working.

mmhmm

 

[Lawz.]

I belive that Ganon should be about 8 places higher, due to his fantastic defensive game, also, sonic should be mid-tier.

spin-dash combo's for the win.

Lucas should go down, ness should go down, link=down, wario=up one place, marth=up one place.

-SIEG

Ness is better than Ganon
Lucas is better than Ganon
Link may even have a better recovery than Ganon
If Ganon were to move 8 spots up then Link should move up 10 spots because Link is better

 

[Nidtendofreak]

About height: If a character is held by a grab with there feet touching the ground, they will automatically ground break. If their feet are off the ground, they will automatically air-break. Ike holds characters higher up then Sonic, Ike has more opportunities to use air grab releases.

Ike has a great jab, but that is the fastest of his ground moves. He has no method of leading into his tilts other than through his jabs and his grabs.
The core part of his round game from which he can work is his jab.
He has a few guaranteed attacks like the Bthrow to dash attack but otherwise, the majority of the time Ike spends his time spacing himself.

In comparison to the rest of the cast, Ike's saving grace is primarily his jab which unfortunately, isnt enough because he relies so heavily upon it. He has no good GTFO move either for when he is being pressured.

hitting hard is great, but unfortunately, Ike has no method from which he can guarantee a kill move.
When I play Ryko, typically he cant get KO's until later percentages because of that issue. He has great power for sure, and yes his Fair can send many a character into dead zones, unfortunately, safe for a few characters (who recover poorly) he cant make use of that ability.

For most characters their jab is their quickest move. >_>

And his jab is enough, and it does work as a GET OUT move. Frame 3 anyone? What he lacks is an aerial GET OUT move. Ground wise he is alright.

Guaranteeing a kill move? Outside of Jab->Grab->Dthrow, no, but neither does Sonic.

More later, eating now. Will edit post.

 

[ShadowLink84]

About height: If a character is held by a grab with there feet touching the ground, they will automatically ground break. If their feet are off the ground, they will automatically air-break. Ike holds characters higher up then Sonic, Ike has more opportunities to use air grab releases.

No I know that I just wasnt sure what you were referring to when you mentioned height. particularly when you tlaked about spamming jump.

For most characters their jab is their quickest move. >_>

True, but they also have moevs that are close in terms of speed.

And his jab is enough, and it does work as a GET OUT move. Frame 3 anyone? What he lacks is an aerial GET OUT move. Ground wise he is alright.

notable GTFO moves
Dolphin Slash
Bowser Fortress

Those are GTFO moves.
Those are moves that ca be used freely while being forced onto the defense.
When Ike is forced onto defensive move, jab doesnt act as a good GTFO move because it cannot cover all his options.


By that logic, every character who has a frame 3 jab has a good GTFO move. Which we know isnt true.

Guaranteeing a kill move? Outside of Jab->Grab->Dthrow, no, but neither does Sonic.

Dthrow kills? What percent?

sonic can guarantee a Bair after a spincharge at higher percents.
He also has a better edgeguard game than which helps to make up for it.

For Ike, he doesnt have such an edgeguarding game like Sonic does, so even though Ike has all this power to his attacks, nailing the final blow is difficult and really belittles his strength.

Considering ho quickly sonic can rack up damage as well as how much easier he can get grabs, he has more opportunities to get a potential offstage gimp .

More later, eating now. Will edit post.

okay.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay, sense you post I won't edit and just post again. >_>

Ike's dthrow is the second or third strongest Dthrow in the game. Obviously it's stage dependent and character dependent, but I believe 150% is about average. Which is sad compared to the rest of Ike's moves, but hey it's there.

And nailing the final blow isn't hard. Heck, for me all I have to do is actually finish the jab combo for a change if I really need to. It'll be fresh. Ftilts and Utilts aren't that hard to land unless it's against someone who is nearly lagless like MK: about as hard as landing's Sonic's fsmash, maybe a bit easier I'd have to check out the frame data again. Might I add that Ike's Ftilt KOs a few % before Snake's, and his Utilt kills 1% later then an uncharged Usmash? Uair is also great for KOs, it outlasts AD's, and uthrow is weak enough to toss people up onto platforms, which really sets them up well for a Uair KO.

And of course, Jab -> Bair kills quickly, and is rarely seen coming.

Or I could do Bthrow->Dash Attack on stages with smaller blastzones within the true combo range. Just jab a few times -> grab -> pummel -> bthrow, and the dash attack will be fairly fresh even if you had used it just right before you went for the KO with it.

What? How? Ike has no metho by which he sends the opponent directly into the water unless he spiked them or they fell in.

Even if they fall in the water,
Or they can simply stay away and play it safe because Ike cant go out and chase them for a spike very easily without it being broadcasted,
Ike really has no method by which he can just go out and take advantage of the water

Jab combo. Doesn't send them far vertically compared to horizontally. I could always follow with a walk off fair if I felt the need in order to keep them from getting back onto the ship. I know from experience that a jab combo will quickly knock DK, Lucas, Falco, Falcon, Diddy, Luigi, and Mario off the ship and into the water. Those are just the characters I can remember off the top of my head.

And it doesn't matter to Ike if his attempts to water spike are broadcasted. They are screwed. Aether both protects from spikes, and prevents people from just jump over him to get away, and then it sets up the dair spike.

That means nothing.
Just because it is unexpected doesn't mean its good. it being unexpected means that the other play made an error, hence why they didn't expect it.

I put that up there to explain that it's how all spikes go, because you can't guaranteed any of them. You can even tech Falco's CG -> Dair. Worse case scenario is that Ike is getting just as many spikes as anyone else with a good aerial spike, which is still a source of KOs.

notable GTFO moves
Dolphin Slash
Bowser Fortress

Those are GTFO moves.
Those are moves that ca be used freely while being forced onto the defense.
When Ike is forced onto defensive move, jab doesnt act as a good GTFO move because it cannot cover all his options.


By that logic, every character who has a frame 3 jab has a good GTFO move. Which we know isnt true.

I stand corrected. What is Sonic's FTFO move? I don't remember how quickly his Usmash and Dsmash start up, and when he has his invincibility frames on Usmash.

sonic can guarantee a Bair after a spincharge at higher percents.
He also has a better edgeguard game than which helps to make up for it.

For Ike, he doesnt have such an edgeguarding game like Sonic does, so even though Ike has all this power to his attacks, nailing the final blow is difficult and really belittles his strength.

Considering ho quickly sonic can rack up damage as well as how much easier he can get grabs, he has more opportunities to get a potential offstage gimp .

Sonic's Bair isn't exactly the strongest KO move out there. >_> When does it KO?

No, Ike doesn't have the edgeguarding as well as Sonic does, but he isn't as reliant on it as Sonic is. After about 50%, Ike's opponents should be starting to be forced to recover. And when they are forced to recover, they aren't attacking Ike.

And Ike can get in grabs nearly as easily as Sonic with Jab->Grab. It's almost like having a 3 frame grab. >_> And his jabs rack up damage quickly, again not as quickly as Sonic, but he doesn't need to rack up damage as quickly as Sonic.

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic has about 1 frame of invincibiltiy in his Up-Smash, and it's not even a GTFO move. The Spring would fill that category.

With no DI, it kills Marth from the center of FD at 125%.

 

[Ussi]

grab releases are gay..

Anyways, about Ike and killing: Ike has 6 frames of hitstun from his jab AT LEAST otherwise its 13 frames if you don't get out at 6 frames. the only way to get out at 6 frames is to jump.. so if you aren't jumping, you'll eat utilt since utilt takes 13 frames to come out. If you jump AD, Ike can uair that easily. There is Ike's semi-guaranteed kill move.

Ike's gimping game will never be as good as Sonic's since his recovery limits it, but Ike has his fare share of edge guarding with his massive range. but again, Sonic does better at it.

Ike can force people to come into the water in PS when he has the % lead and the other person lacks a projectile to aim at him.

Ike's dthrow kills at 160-170% on a middleweight. Not reliable.


And another thing, I believe Bowser has 30 frames of lag from a GR too, only when he's releasing his grab he has 20 frames. (i think)

 

[ShadowLink84]

Okay, sense you post I won't edit and just post again. >_>

No prob

Ike's dthrow is the second or third strongest Dthrow in the game. Obviously it's stage dependent and character dependent, but I believe 150% is about average. Which is sad compared to the rest of Ike's moves, but hey it's there.

Is it with or without DI?

And nailing the final blow isn't hard. Heck, for me all I have to do is actually finish the jab combo for a change if I really need to. It'll be fresh.

Wih DI Ike's jab doesn't kill until over 150%. Even when fresh. Center stage.

Ftilts and Utilts aren't that hard to land unless it's against someone who is nearly lagless like MK: about as hard as landing's Sonic's fsmash, maybe a bit easier I'd have to check out the frame data again.

Utilt is actually faster. ut again, what setups do you have other than through your jabs?

Might I add that Ike's Ftilt KOs a few % before Snake's, and his Utilt kills 1% later then an uncharged Usmash?

I dont care aout killing power. We already know Ike can kill really friggin early. I am asking his setups, his ability to land the kill move.

Uair is also great for KOs, it outlasts AD's, and uthrow is weak enough to toss people up onto platforms, which really sets them up well for a Uair KO.

The range on it is a bit lacking though and rather difficult to land that grab as well.

And of course, Jab -> Bair kills quickly, and is rarely seen coming.

Whether or not it is predicted is unimportant. What matters is if it is unavoidable and what is required.

Or I could do Bthrow->Dash Attack on stages with smaller blastzones within the true combo range. Just jab a few times -> grab -> pummel -> bthrow, and the dash attack will be fairly fresh even if you had used it just right before you went for the KO with it.

This doesn't kill anyone except for characters with BAD recoveries.
Link will di at ridiculously low percentages as will Ganondorf, anyone else though, not erally.

Jab combo. Doesn't send them far vertically compared to horizontally.

in comparison to Snake's jab which is stronge with more horizontal trajectory, you can DI Ike's jab to live until higher percents even when fresh. (kinda stupid erally).

I could always follow with a walk off fair if I felt the need in order to keep them from getting back onto the ship.

Why would they instead not go in the water, the hop out and grab the ledge?

I know from experience that a jab combo will quickly knock DK, Lucas, Falco, Falcon, Diddy, Luigi, and Mario off the ship and into the water. Those are just the characters I can remember off the top of my head.

Wait what?
How in the heck is Lucas, Falco, Falcon, Diddy, Luigi and mario landing in the water unless the jab cmoo has slapped them far away at higher percents and at a more horizontal trajectory?

And it doesn't matter to Ike if his attempts to water spike are broadcasted. They are screwed.

Ike's Dair comes out in over 10 frames. They are FAR from screwed. your opponent can make sure that they never are placed in a situation where the Dair is unavoidable, which, it is.

Aether both protects from spikes, and prevents people from just jump over him to get away, and then it sets up the dair spike

how does it set up for a Dair spike?
You mean when yo reverse aether and grab the ledge? Thats really all I can see you doing with it, since any other time the opponent would smack into the stage. Since if you go for the aether spike and hit the water, well you wot land the Dair.

I put that up there to explain that it's how all spikes go, because you can't guaranteed any of them. You can even tech Falco's CG -> Dair. Worse case scenario is that Ike is getting just as many spikes as anyone else with a good aerial spike, which is still a source of KOs.

Difference between Falco's spike and Ike's?
he can land his at lower percents and even if the opponent techs it, he is perfectly safe. he can actually land the spike at a given percentage.

Ike. no setups period.
When Falco spikes someone it is usually from his Cg because it is a seup and unavoidable, otherwise, he doesn't land a spike .
Nor do we factor things like, unpredictable, unexpected, because that is player dependant not a result of the characters abilities.

I stand corrected. What is Sonic's FTFO move? I don't remember how quickly his Usmash and Dsmash start up, and when he has his invincibility frames on Usmash.

Usmash and Dsmash are not GTFO moves. I cannot see as to why you would think so because eof how slow they are.
His best GTFO move is either his OOS Uair (can break bombs on green greens without him being harmed) and possibly side B (due to invincible frames.)

Sonic's Bair isn't exactly the strongest KO move out there. >_> When does it KO?

Around 130 or so.
Its an average kill move.

No, Ike doesn't have the edgeguarding as well as Sonic does, but he isn't as reliant on it as Sonic is. After about 50%, Ike's opponents should be starting to be forced to recover. And when they are forced to recover, they aren't attacking Ike.

Yeah Sonic doesn'thave Ike's kill power.
But he isn't dependent on ONLY landing a kill move.
Sonic can go to edge guard, Ike can't do it at the same degree.
He either lands a kill move or he just keeps tacking on damage.

Eve if you have the opponent at 100% and force them to recover, it means little if they arent KO'd

And Ike can get in grabs nearly as easily as Sonic with Jab->Grab.

um no he can't. Who are you kidding?
For one, Sonic doesnt need to jab anyone to get a grab in. So he isn't as limited as Ike.
In fact, he can cause his speed eve further by using dash shield grabs.

In short, Sonic can dash shield grab through a falcon punch due to his insane speed.

It's almost like having a 3 frame grab. >_>

Where the situation is basically, the opponent being in jab range. And Ike cant force people close unless he is at a lower percent than them.
Even then there are ways around the jab.

And his jabs rack up damage quickly, again not as quickly as Sonic, but he doesn't need to rack up damage as quickly as Sonic.

Course not, he has kill power, but he has no kill setups.
Thats not very good .

If you have no kill setups, you are stuck racking up damage, at which point, racking up damage more quickly can make up for this.

grab releases are gay..

Why is that?
its the best way to kill Wario.

Anyways, about Ike and killing: Ike has 6 frames of hitstun from his jab AT LEAST otherwise its 13 frames if you don't get out at 6 frames. the only way to get out at 6 frames is to jump.. so if you aren't jumping, you'll eat utilt since utilt takes 13 frames to come out. If you jump AD, Ike can uair that easily. There is Ike's semi-guaranteed kill move.

Isn't his Uair around 15 frames? I cant see it landing very easily .
Meh i'll take it though.

Ike can force people to come into the water in PS when he has the % lead and the other person lacks a projectile to aim at him.

Everyone can do that though, and even then the opponent would be above him and Ike cant exactly stay in the water forever.

And another thing, I believe Bowser has 30 frames of lag from a GR too, only when he's releasing his grab he has 20 frames. (i think)

I thought it was for both while for DK, he gets 20 frames when released from a grab.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonics up smash, kills at about 145% fresh.

and you can DI out of it...

also bowser has 30 frames of GR lag when he is being released he has less when he does the releasing.

DK has less lag when he is beign released tho

 

[da K.I.D.]

we all need to just chill out and read this
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/smash-live-stream

 

[Nidtendofreak]

....I'm sorry, but as far as I can tell Shadowlink, you have no clue at how Ike's water spiking game works.

All he has to do is land ONE aether.

Aether hit, it spikes, opponent is send down under water, farther then Ike is who just lands in the water like he did an empty jump. He has MORE then enough time to SHDair the opponent as they come up for air. They can't avoid it period. Once they get aethered once into the water, unless Ike screws up, they will die. Period.

Uair's range isn't lacking. It has a nice hitbox, bigger then Bair's hitbox for sure, and outlasts all ADs. Beats Sonic's horizontally, but not vertically because the vertical reach of Sonic's Uair is stupid.

Ike isn't depended on only landing a kill move. We do freaking land spike, and we can gimp some recoveries with walk-off fair. Ike just don't gimp as often as Sonic, who in turn doesn't flat out KO as often as Ike.

If you force someone to recover, they are now on the stage edge. Suddenly Jab Combo is KOing sooner, along with the rest of his moves, etc. The opponent is in a bad place unless they are like MK. Being on the stage edge against Ike = very bad.

Jab -> Grab is very reliable. You can't avoid a 3 frame jab forever, and it's Ike's most used move. If it was easy to avoid, Ike would be lower. And as Ussi showed with his frame data, you don't have a big window of time to jump out of grab range.

 

[Ussi]

Aether sucks and has no hitstun. Marth can DS out of it while Ike is at his apex, Sonic can easily spring (Since there is invincibility frames in the beginning right?) out of it and gimp Ike if there wasn't water below.

The thing with Ike's uair is cause it lasts longer than an AD. So chasing a jump > AD is very effective with Ike's uair.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Man, you guys arguing over something like a most likely banned stage o.o.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Man, you guys arguing over something like a most likely banned stage o.o.

Pirate ship isn't the only Water stage. Delfino has water too remember.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Oh yeah.

But isn't a little too much to be arguing on a topic involving spiking them in the water?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Man, you guys arguing over something like a most likely banned stage o.o.

It's legal in Texas. Good enough for me.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Oh yeah.

But isn't a little too much to be arguing on a topic involving spikin them in the water?

Meh. More useful then half this threads discussion so far. :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

whenever you doubt the validity of the current topic, just remember

we can always haev more sonic discussion

 

[ShadowLink84]

....I'm sorry, but as far as I can tell Shadowlink, you have no clue at how Ike's water spiking game works.

All he has to do is land ONE aether.

I do admit i lack knowledge on his water games.

Aether hit, it spikes, opponent is send down under water, farther then Ike is who just lands in the water like he did an empty jump. He has MORE then enough time to SHDair the opponent as they come up for air. They can't avoid it period. Once they get aethered once into the water, unless Ike screws up, they will die. Period.

cant the opponent swim to the side as they come up?

Uair's range isn't lacking.

in comparison toFalcons?
I mean vertically .

It has a nice hitbox, bigger then Bair's hitbox for sure, and outlasts all ADs. Beats Sonic's horizontally, but not vertically because the vertical reach of Sonic's Uair is stupid.

Actually I think Sonics uair contends with Ike's uair in terms of horizontal and might have some frame during which he has no hurtbox.

I know for sure horizontally the Uair is great but vertically, I know a number of other Uairs beat it.

Ike isn't depended on only landing a kill move. We do freaking land spike,

the point is not that you land it. But on how reliable it is.

and we can gimp some recoveries with walk-off fair. Ike just don't gimp as often as Sonic, who in turn doesn't flat out KO as often as Ike.

Except both of them have issues anding that final KO move. Hence why I eel sonics gimping game aids him more. While Ike does not rely flat out on killing, his ability to gimp a character (Ike), is far lesser because of how incredibly good recoveries are in this game.

If you force someone to recover, they are now on the stage edge. Suddenly Jab Combo is KOing sooner, along with the rest of his moves, etc. The opponent is in a bad place unless they are like MK. Being on the stage edge against Ike = very bad.

Can you tell me when ikes jab combo kills with DI?
Ike isnt very intimidating when you are on the edge, primarily, because every character has options against Ike.
You do not need to be MK in order to get back on the stage against Ike.

Jab -> Grab is very reliable. You can't avoid a 3 frame jab forever, and it's Ike's most used move. If it was easy to avoid, Ike would be lower. And as Ussi showed with his frame data, you don't have a big window of time to jump out of grab range.

his grab comes out on frame 6 correct?
Also Ussi explained from a Utilt or how you would chase from a Uair. (unless he posted another).

No one is saying you can avoid ike's 3 frame jab. But in comparison to Sonic, ike doesnt get grabs as often.
sonics grab game is more flexible and reliable because he can use his grabs in a greater amount of scenarios than Ike.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's grab is 7 but 1 frame in jumping won't get you away, and it leaves you completely open to air release crap without a jump. AD comes out in 13 frames instead of 6 so can't AD out of jab.

(sounds bad on paper but really isn't that bad as I made it sound)

Niddo, Sonic gets grabs better than Ike and has a better grab game.

And when it comes down to it, Ike has more get ***** match ups than Sonic, but Ike has his adv match ups Sonic never gets.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

cant the opponent swim to the side as they come up?

They can try, but Ike can still get there in time. You in water = screwed.

Ike isnt very intimidating when you are on the edge, primarily, because every character has options against Ike.

Edge, not ledge. Edge = side of stage, ledge = hanging onto stage.

Niddo, Sonic gets grabs better than Ike and has a better grab game.

I never said Ike had an easier time getting grabs then Sonic. I'm not that stupid. I think I didn't word it well, I meant it's not that hard for Ike to get grabs, while for Sonic it's lol easy.

And when it comes down to it, Ike has more get ***** match ups than Sonic, but Ike has his adv match ups Sonic never gets.

Ike has 3 ****'d match-ups (D3, Falco, Olimar), Sonic has none. I know this. I didn't bring up match-ups for a reason. >_> Granted, Ike still does better then a lot of lower tiered characters, just that Sonic isn't really one of them. I think it averages out it close to the same...

thats all for tonight.

 

[Deleted member]

Ike is hella good, just not as good as sonic.

For the record, i think ike is better than yoshi by a decent amount, but yoshi has a better chance to do well without a secondary.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

The only people that seem to be heavily discussed are Ike, Sonic, and Yoshi.

Needz moar Lucas, PT, ZSS, Mario, heck ANYBODY!

 

[Kinzer]

Lucas is bad, more specifically people just say he's worse than Ness. I think we've all gotten that message, but I suppose one could be a little bit more original and ask how much lower does Lucas need to go?

How about Ness? If people say Lucas < Ness, then where would Ness be affects how much lower Lucas should be, right?

Zero Suit is still underrated.

Mario has trouble with the high-tiers, and lol D3. I find him just fine where he is.

Pokeymanz Trainer is not deserving of his spot, needs to be a whee bit higher. By whee bit I mean 2 spots at worst.

As for Ike and Sonic's matchups... Ike has some neutral matchups here and there, but his "get ****" matchups are much worse in terms of difficulty and frequency than Sonic's. Ike vs. Falco is a good example to use, being 25:75 in Falco's favor, whereas Sonic's worst matchups... which character/s it is is arguable, however the number is an undisputed 35:65 at worst.

As for the "greener" spectrum of their matchups... I am unaware of some of Ike's numbers because when I still contributed/posted/lurked/trolled (IDC what you say, take your pick, ponit was I spent a considerable amount of time in the Ike boards), discussing matchup ratios was heavily discouraged, but does Ike have any advantaged matchups that are better than 6:4 besides Squirtle? If yes, neither does Sonic. So Ike might have it a little bit worse in terms of overall in the matchup field.

Why do I say that? Because even if Ike might have some more "neutral" matchups, Sonic's are more "balanced", as in a majority of his matchups are 44:55 - 4:6 Sonic's opponents' favor, whereas Ike hard-countering one or two characters, gets hard-countered by many more characters, and still has it much harder in said matchups... so he runs more "hot 'n cold." Oh how long it has been since I extensively paid a visit to the Ike boards that I know not much other than what I knew before I moved on to Sonic, however I am free to be corrected. Perhaps Ike does have his majority of matchups as only slightly disadvantaged. Then again I could be right, but until somebody else refutes/backs-up my post, then I cannot be entirely certain.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I was just saying we need more discussions about other characters <_<.

 

[Tyr_03]

Lucas should be above Ness....GO!

 

[M.K]

Lucas should be above Ness....GO!

I don't think so.
Lucas is garbage, he has absolutely nothing going for him, nothing to make ME want to use HIM in any circumstance other than to humiliate myself in the name of competitive Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

 

[Barge]

I prefer ness.
This topic has been brought up a bajillion times, though.

 

[:mad:]

... you almost made me cry.
Heha, nah. I always expect that sort of response from someone that doesn't put the time or effort into learning a character like Lucas.

I'm on the fence about this, since I enjoy playing as both Ness and Lucas. I'd say Lucas is better though.
Ness is funner to play as.
Meta-Kirby has no friends.

@Barge - Personally, I prefer the air.

 

[Sosuke]

Lucas is better then Ness imho.

His down-B HURTS people.



But really, Lucas seems more **** then Ness. =/