Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

[BluEG]

Haha ok, I agree with that about the Up-B. But i still like the idea of psychological terror if i could get good enough at it haha.


TBH, learning to WD with both hands has been very hard for me since I've gotten so used to using my left hand. But being able to WD with both is really opening up a lot of doors. If one hand is tied up L-canceling or shielding, it makes getting a quick wave dash much much easier.

I'm also thinking about switching to only using z for aerials. As far as speed goes, pressing jump and then moving it to press a or the c-stick is very tedious when you can just press z at almost the split second after jumping by using your pointer finger.

Oh, and you can waveland aerials in place too

 

[BluEG]

Heres a video of some of the stuff I'm talking about. The full hops are where I mess up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqTCzfTAtRs&feature=youtu.be

Youtube did an odd thing with the camera zooming in and out, but it should be fixed in a few minutes. Let me know what you think.

 

[Winston]

When would you want to waveland aerials in place?

 

[BluEG]

Its about the same speed as a auto-canceled aerial but leaves you the option to react with a retreating or approaching wavedash.

Also, when you are wavelanding Short hop and full hop aerials repeatedly, thats what your opponent thinks you are going to do, so it acts as a mixup when you would normally do a waveland.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh ... why are you doing full hop aerials ...

 

[BluEG]

Uhh ... To hit them with an aerial after you throw or pop them into the air with Usmash/Dsmash/Utilt/Nair. Pretty much anything.

 

[Wenbobular]

Well it sounded like you were talking about neutral game

 

[BluEG]

Fair enough. Sorry about that.

Whenever I do full hop to use an aerial as a followup, I almost always waveland afterwards.

 

[Winston]

Its about the same speed as a auto-canceled aerial but leaves you the option to react with a retreating or approaching wavedash.

Also, when you are wavelanding Short hop and full hop aerials repeatedly, thats what your opponent thinks you are going to do, so it acts as a mixup when you would normally do a waveland.

hmm? It's significantly slower than an AC aerial. 4 frames vs. 10 frames of lag.

I'm not sure how it gives you more options to react, I mean you have time to decide whether to AC or waveland during the lag of the aerial I feel.

 

[BluEG]

For AC, I'm pretty sure you have to start fastfalling before the aerial finishes, otherwise it slows the motion down. But once you start the fast fall, you're committed to AC. I didn't know there were more frames on landing, it looks pretty much the same to me.

However, I'm more interested in that wave landing the aerial gets you to the ground at the same speed as an AC but you aren't fastfalling at all.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Yx0VUy0hw&feature=relmfu#t=2m29s

I think if Vudu went in with a mindset to waveland in place on that SH fair instead of an AC, it would have been easy to react to Foxes roll and get him with a Dsmash or a jab-grab


On another note

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Yx0VUy0hw&feature=relmfu#t=3m21s

That looks like something to start messing with.

 

[Wenbobular]

His roll finished around the same time his Fair did, there was no way Vudujin was going to catch his roll without predicting what he did after his roll too

2nd thing has been around since forever
It's pretty cool but not all that helpful because it's pretty obvious when you're going for it
Luigi needs all the help he can get with recovery though *shrug*

You should work on your wavedash length

 

[BluEG]

His roll finished around the same time his Fair did, there was no way Vudujin was going to catch his roll without predicting what he did after his roll too

I see what you're saying, but in general, I think if the fox rolled out of the way of Fair the fox is thinking "Phew, I'm safe, he missed" But then you get right back into his face with the waveland. Luigi is so fast that he is easy to react with, but harder to react to-His bursts of speed really throw people off.

I think Luigi really needs to just focus on being a threat everywhere at all times instead of strictly playing defensive/offensive. Leaving multiple options open really allows that.


Has there really been anyone who can do Down-B recovery perfectly atleast like 90% of the time? I think the tornado can potentially be great for recovery, but its just so damn hard to do =/

 

[Wenbobular]

I think the Fox is bad if he's just rolling around like a noob <_<
Fox has so much more speed than Luigi that if he just stays in your deadzone (inside max wavedash length but outside of your aerial range) then he just runs you over if you try a bad jump

I get what you're saying but I don't reeeally see how it helps vs a Fox that can keep up the pressure

The most important thing is pressing buttons immediately after you press B

 

[BluEG]

As far as fox goes, yeah, he pretty much ****s on Luigi if they know the matchup. The video was just an example for a situation I think WL in place is a decent option since it leaves the option to retreat or approach open rather than committing a fast fall for an AC. Since it gets you to the ground as fast as an AC, it lets you linger in the air for a moment to see what your opponent is doing-and you're opponent isn't always fox.

Its all just theoretical, I havent gotten good enough yet to try it-but for all I know ACing the aerial is the better way to go, but I really think the two are interchangeable.

The best way I've found to do the down-b is to flex before you even start and then kind of shake violently/vibrate with your hand and thumb. Its pretty tiring though-I feel like I need to go to the gym to train for smash hahaha

 

[BluEG]

I'm not sure, I'm still messing around with it. It might be because I'm messing up wavedashes-But I think Luigi gains extra momentum when wavedashing on platforms if you jump out of a dash animation before doing the wavedash. Not when you're already on the platform, but going to it.

Basically trying to find out what determines Luigi's speed when he does WD on a platform. Its all over the place for me.

 

[Wenbobular]

I don't understand what you mean by wavelanding in place leaves your options open, because wavelanding in place is not nearly fast enough to legitimately pressure a roll that ends at the same time your Fair does ... what are you planning on doing after the waveland, wavedash over to them and ... ?

If you waveland after your Fair to chase after them then you have some shot of surprising them in a somewhat illegitimate manner, but wavelanding in place doesn't do anything

 

[BluEG]

Ah, this is what I mean.

So doing a SH aerial and then auto-cancelling is an option that lets you quickly throw an aerial out and then return to a neutral position. Wavelanding an aerial in place serves the same purpose and does so at the same speed. (Although it was brought to my attention that there are 6 more frame on landing so it may make my point moot)

To make the AC aerial as fast as possible, you fast fall before the aerial is finished, and as soon as you start fast falling, the option to waveland is gone.

However, Wavelanding in place has the same timing as a normal waveland, so up until the moment you actually do the WL in place, you can change your mind and make it an approach or retreat if you need to.

In regards to the video, I'm saying that instead of starting to fast fall for the AC, you could linger in the air a moment to see what your opponent is doing. If you want to get back to neutral like the AC, just waveland in place. If you see your opponent roll, waveland and attack. Does that make more sense?

 

[Wenbobular]

That's interesting I guess
At least I understand what you meant now haha

Just landing (no fastfall)-> wavedash / dashdance might be similar / better, you get the option of dashdancing and landing lag -> do stuff is faster than waveland lag -> do stuff

 

[knightpraetor]

vist took a match off with me with luigi a long time ago..i was 3 stocking him with marth then he was like..."damn, I hate playing against marth..have to play campy"...and then he proceeded to camp wavedash angled ftilts on me for 3 stocks...obviously he pressured me when he got me pinned near the edge..but it was the ftilt that was actually causing problems.

i use that same strategy when jiggs is spacing bairs on me as ICs..

and even though i'm better now and have some ideas on how to edgeguard luigi at least..I still think it's one of the better options luigi has

 

[Wenbobular]

Marth just grabs Luigi and chucks him upwards, then proceeds to do up attacks for 100%

 

[Seartu]

Could I get a quick explanation on Luigi's auto-cancelled aerials? I'm surprised I haven't run across this before, which aerials can be auto-cancelled and how?

 

[Wenbobular]

I think how it works is after a certain frame during the aerial, if you land on the ground you only go through landing lag instead of having to L cancel

Luigi can do it with any of his moves I think by short hopping, doing the move, and fastfalling

 

[BluEG]

Long as the aerial's animation is done before landing you autocancel.

 

[Wenbobular]

Just do a Falco Bair short hop no fastfall to see what it is

 

[Vudujin]

Nair auto-cancels on a short hop with no fast fall. Press A right after hitting jump.

 

[BluEG]

Anybody have any Puff matchup advice?

Right now I pretty much move around waiting for a chance to move in with an U-smash, Ftilt, or grab->downthrow and then try to get a follow-up nair or chop for a kill.

Some random tricks for the matchup would be much appreciated

 

[Wenbobular]

Ledgedash upsmash is mad good vs Puffs who think they can just wall you with Bairs, but you have to execute pretty good to catch them with it

 

[Vudujin]

For Puff, approach with jabs, u-tilts, or d smash. If they crouch a lot, try going for D smash at low percents to avoid punishes. From mid to pre-high, you wanna jab then read the DI; If they go away then f-tilt, up then uair, down then D-smash. You can combo if you get them with the uair.
Grabs are good in the MU also. U throw to chop/ double uair / FH nair work at low percents. At mid percents use f or d-throw; if DI'd then WD into something.

This is kinda dumb, but you can F-throw > WD up-B at zero if you catch them at the right DI.

U smash is your finisher. At high percents you can D-throw and still cover all the DI options. If they DI towards your back (most distance) then you can follow-up with WD U-smash. If they don't DI you get your choice of aerial.

Luigi's moves come out really fast, so just keep up with the hitstun you dish out and space your moves well. Wait for your turn to attack. Full-hopping with nairs is great for low ceiling kills if you waveland towards them fast enough.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh...
Why would you ever Fthrow up-b at 0 <_<
If you miss they actually just kill you
If you hit it ... you get like, 30% total

How is the vague possibility of 30% worth your life =_=

 

[Seartu]

Uhh...
Why would you ever Fthrow up-b at 0 <_<
If you miss they actually just kill you
If you hit it ... you get like, 30% total

How is the vague possibility of 30% worth your life =_=

Yea, it sounds, kinda dumb. But vudujin must not have realized it sounds kinda dumb. Oh wait.

This is kinda dumb, but you can F-Throw > WD up-B at zero if you catch them at the right DI

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh ... he only said it was "kinda dumb"
But it's so bad it transcends "kinda dumb" and becomes "if you want to win never do this ever"

If he only calls it "kinda dumb" then someone might actually be tricked into trying this for real ~_~

 

[Vudujin]

Wow, I think you're reading into that a lil too much.

The man asked for some tricks and I gave hime a trick.

You can DI rest too. It's not gonna kill you on any stage except Story or Stadium.

The odds of that working are about as big as getting 4 misfires in a row, but hey, lots of people have done that before.

 

[Wenbobular]

Uhh haha
Are you planning on only using this silly trick only when you're at 30 or below or something? That's like 3 Bairs <_<

Do whatever you want bro ~_~

 

[Vudujin]

Once again, reading into it too much. It's a trick, not an approach. . . . ya know. . . friendlies. . . . this game being fun. . . . something dumb you do isn't going to taint your smash career forever. . . ya know. . . those kinds of things.

 

[Wenbobular]

I guess that's what I get expecting serious discussion of tactics in the Luigi forums

 

[BluEG]

Pinging puff is quite satisfying. Who cares how you set it up ? =]

Although it is a shame that Luigi's ping got slammed by the ban hammer from 64-melee while Puff's got buffed ;((((((


Is downsmash really that useful against puff? I am too worried about missing if they jump in the air over it so I almost always opt for Usmash instead.


On a random side note, who Pivots a lot? I'm noticing that pivoting makes my ideas about wavedashing in place almost void because an empty pivot functions the same way and is fasterrrrr!

 

[Wenbobular]

What exactly is an empty pivot <_<

Wavedashing in place is still good because you often want to stay grounded

 

[Oracle]

Wavedashing in place is good so you can confuse them with lots of noise and smoke

 

[BluEG]

An empty pivot is pivoting without doing an attack.

Basically you start a dash then flick the control stick in the opposite direction and immediately let go.
The result is you start a dash then immediately turn around.

 

[Blea Gelo]

what is this lol.
blueg, wif jiggly you dont need to enter at all, is really situational and it's not subjective at all, it's how it is.
when he is far, sh fireball, when you know they will not reach u but get close, extra percent for jiggs is good at least 6, but dont get punished for it.
walking backwards and beeing a moveable target every time he is getting close go te a bair it's good, you can counter it wif an upwarded ftilt.
fair is not that good against jiggz if u are not certainly sure you are gonna get the hit or not get punish if u miss. Dair is a better option, has more priority, comes out faster, and it might not kill jiggs as fast as the ftilt cause of the direction the f tilt has, but it certainly makes you harder to hit. nairs out of shield are pretty good. and do not Dsmash jiggz unless, he is CC, and has more than 25% or so. if you WD and they CC that dsmash, they can get a rest real quick. wif jiggz a Usmash is a lot better than a dsmash most of the times, do not use fsmash against jiggz. Ftilts are way better than f smash. and quick d throws at high percents are good. at low percents u already know what to do.
remember luigi gets baited really easy, once you do the WD you cannot do sht until you are released from that lag momentum after the WD is done, so try mixing your walking too. like every other character, once u your opponents head, they will shield, when they shield, you grab. nair is good to do when they are next to u to rest or anything, is really situational, but it's a really good option