Vudujin
Smash Lord
That's the idea. You can combo her the whole way off of the stage, because she DI's into all of your hits. Just make sure you can get back to the ledge, and every stock will be 0 to death-ing Nana, then tracking down a Sopo.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various
- Thread starter Smash G 0 D
- Start date
BluEG
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Messages
- 287
She really can't DI? lmao.
And she can't use a third jump.
Doesn't sound too bad. I see some complications with Popo getting in the way. Do you treat it like 2v1 in doubles? Like focusing on Nana but swapping a few bairs into popo to keep him back while you work her off the stage.
And she can't use a third jump.
Doesn't sound too bad. I see some complications with Popo getting in the way. Do you treat it like 2v1 in doubles? Like focusing on Nana but swapping a few bairs into popo to keep him back while you work her off the stage.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
Yup. That's almost exactly what I was going to say.
CPU's pretty much always use survival DI. So they come towards you in combos.
CPU's pretty much always use survival DI. So they come towards you in combos.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
Mos Def, and I don't mean the wrapper.
Seartu
Smash Journeyman
I'm a little late to the party here but Iceblock/blizzard-platform shenanigans suck. I hate it so much. Choknator owns me so hard with that ****, I just can't get in.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
IF you WD D-smash them at 0 you can get another one and start a nana killing combo.
mexicanmax227
Smash Apprentice
marth main. gonna keep it brief. any advice vs. luigi? pretty sure ive got this match up but would hate to lose at tournament. all i know is that his recover is bad, his wavedashes are long, he floats, and marth out ranges him. thankful for any advice, i come from an old meta and plan to regularly attend tournaments soon. I would hate to get embarrased by a beast luigi.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Control the ground and grab him.
Never let him down ever. Punishment should emphasize putting him offstage so he has to use his awful recovery. Limit his options as much as you can and try to force him to side-B so you can sword on it. You can build height if you want I guess but make sure to bair him offstage so you can milk his recovery for being bad and severely injure him. Fish for dairs and tipper f-smashes but don't be overzealous with them.
WD approach lags him so if you stay a WD length inside him you can make him run into stuff while he's committed. It's funny. I recommend d-tilt and grab. Luigi can't jump approach so his mixup vs this kind of thing is pretty weak overall. He has some tricks but it's largely gimmicky and revolves jumping around platforms with wavelands, crouching, and sidestep (which are all countered largely by dash dance).
His moves are fast but there are always holes in his pressure strings.
Throwing him off the stage is also really good in general. Fast edgehogs, covering stuff with aerials, etc. is all really good.
Even with all this you can still lose to Luigi.
Never let him down ever. Punishment should emphasize putting him offstage so he has to use his awful recovery. Limit his options as much as you can and try to force him to side-B so you can sword on it. You can build height if you want I guess but make sure to bair him offstage so you can milk his recovery for being bad and severely injure him. Fish for dairs and tipper f-smashes but don't be overzealous with them.
WD approach lags him so if you stay a WD length inside him you can make him run into stuff while he's committed. It's funny. I recommend d-tilt and grab. Luigi can't jump approach so his mixup vs this kind of thing is pretty weak overall. He has some tricks but it's largely gimmicky and revolves jumping around platforms with wavelands, crouching, and sidestep (which are all countered largely by dash dance).
His moves are fast but there are always holes in his pressure strings.
Throwing him off the stage is also really good in general. Fast edgehogs, covering stuff with aerials, etc. is all really good.
Even with all this you can still lose to Luigi.
mexicanmax227
Smash Apprentice
Thank YOu!
BluEG
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Messages
- 287
Control the ground and grab him.
Never let him down ever. Punishment should emphasize putting him offstage so he has to use his awful recovery. Limit his options as much as you can and try to force him to side-B so you can sword on it. You can build height if you want I guess but make sure to bair him offstage so you can milk his recovery for being bad and severely injure him. Fish for dairs and tipper f-smashes but don't be overzealous with them.
WD approach lags him so if you stay a WD length inside him you can make him run into stuff while he's committed. It's funny. I recommend d-tilt and grab. Luigi can't jump approach so his mixup vs this kind of thing is pretty weak overall. He has some tricks but it's largely gimmicky and revolves jumping around platforms with wavelands, crouching, and sidestep (which are all countered largely by dash dance).
His moves are fast but there are always holes in his pressure strings.
Throwing him off the stage is also really good in general. Fast edgehogs, covering stuff with aerials, etc. is all really good.
Even with all this you can still lose to Luigi.[/]
^ do this.
In fact, aside from specific attacks, it's how you beat Luigi with pretty much any character.
The ground is a Luigi highway, keep him off of it and your golden.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
Sigging because of how funny that is out of context.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That is pretty good actually.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
i realized i don't know how to offstage edgeguard luigi. do you have to risk getting misfired into or can you stay above/below luigi's side b trajectory and still hit a spike/bair while the luigi is moving horizontally?
marth normally sits horizontally when he wants to spike so i get the feeling the only safe edgeguards are bairs..while if you want to spike you would have to either predict the luigi's side b length and hit him between swipes or just assume he won't misfire.
marth normally sits horizontally when he wants to spike so i get the feeling the only safe edgeguards are bairs..while if you want to spike you would have to either predict the luigi's side b length and hit him between swipes or just assume he won't misfire.
Cinbad
Smash Cadet
Most luigis will use the side b in short bursts in order to recover horizontally, so try to hit him during the lag period in between these bursts. You can also throw yourself in front of him and use your body to block his side-b's. The extra damage is worth it, as one good body block and gimp from very low percentages
Honestly though, you're probably better off just chilling on the stage if you're playing as Marth. If the weeg tries to recover high, just f-smash him. If he tries to recover low, just f-smash him.
Honestly though, you're probably better off just chilling on the stage if you're playing as Marth. If the weeg tries to recover high, just f-smash him. If he tries to recover low, just f-smash him.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
What? Luigis can't sweetspot past Marth's Fsmash?
C'mon now ...
C'mon now ...
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
F-smash is easily teched even if you flub the sweetspot.
When my set with Vudujin comes out I have some things I want to discuss with you kiddies.
It involves smash theory.
*gasp*
When my set with Vudujin comes out I have some things I want to discuss with you kiddies.
It involves smash theory.
*gasp*
Cinbad
Smash Cadet
the joke -------------->
Your heads: O O O
Your heads: O O O
Vudujin
Smash Lord
I believed so hard.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
If you go low, make sure you're touching the stage after a charged gm so you tech a dair. Or just go really high. It's actually one of the few situations where you want to be above Marth. When recovering save all your jumps including down-b. If he tries the spike you can actually still make it back if it doesn't kill you. Also, Luigi has the 50/50 do or die Abe Lincoln gimp. Once positioned with no options except up-b and an opponent going for an edge hog, you'll either die or they'll get coined and air dodge to their death. I've been trying to watch their controller for an L or R input, and up b right before they press it.
BluEG
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Messages
- 287
Thats dirty haha.
I'm having trouble with the opposite though. When I'm edgeguarding marth I'm not sure what to do if he does reach the ledge.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Gotta watch out for the ledgehop fair. If you can bait it you can wd in with a shield.
Seartu
Smash Journeyman
Luigi punishing marth oos...how does one go about doing that?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
How do you hit Marth OOS?
Do a high momentum WD and then shield
Slide into sword move (ideally he doesn't grab)
If you got enough momentum and/or his timing was sucky enough then free move OOS
If he did a laggy enough move (f-smash, rising fair, etc) then free move OOS
If not, back off and try again (this will happen a lot more and more the better they are)
Also works with crouch but in exchange for eating damage you get your whole ground moveset (smashes, tilts)
In general if Marth jumps this isn't bad because sneaking under stuff or trading isn't too hard
Same with if he plays super distance (unless he's a pro gimper and he's camping the edge area, in which case it's meh - not the worst but just annoying when you get gimped but that position gives you chances to get earlier KOs than normal too so double-edged sword for him)
If he plays ground control with offensive DD and denies your WD space then it's rough IMO
Do a high momentum WD and then shield
Slide into sword move (ideally he doesn't grab)
If you got enough momentum and/or his timing was sucky enough then free move OOS
If he did a laggy enough move (f-smash, rising fair, etc) then free move OOS
If not, back off and try again (this will happen a lot more and more the better they are)
Also works with crouch but in exchange for eating damage you get your whole ground moveset (smashes, tilts)
In general if Marth jumps this isn't bad because sneaking under stuff or trading isn't too hard
Same with if he plays super distance (unless he's a pro gimper and he's camping the edge area, in which case it's meh - not the worst but just annoying when you get gimped but that position gives you chances to get earlier KOs than normal too so double-edged sword for him)
If he plays ground control with offensive DD and denies your WD space then it's rough IMO
Bing
Smash Master
Just saying, the best way to punish a missed rest is taught to fair/bair. Works like a charm.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Meteor dair (not hard to do either tbh) > follow is good below Up+B KO percent (45 or so)
I find meteor dair > d-smash is usually good damage (30%+) but there's undoubtedly more with it (dair > grab, dair > up+B maybe, etc). Learning it is useful for making a better low percent punish - his other options aren't as good IMO and it's not hard to learn.
If you're lazier or have time to set up, charging d-smash to hit with the backswing can sometimes lead to bair follows too, which is cute. If you get 2 bairs then it's better then the dair stuff (40%+). Otherwise it's about the same (30%+).
But Luigi's rest punish is simple at heart - he has such a ridiculous KO for it that he doesn't need a very complex low percent / mid percent punish game like Sheik and Peach and such. He can do it more Fox style. Not needing to charge Up+B for the KO potential is also a huge boon over stuff like Fox u-smash and Marth f-smash.
I find meteor dair > d-smash is usually good damage (30%+) but there's undoubtedly more with it (dair > grab, dair > up+B maybe, etc). Learning it is useful for making a better low percent punish - his other options aren't as good IMO and it's not hard to learn.
If you're lazier or have time to set up, charging d-smash to hit with the backswing can sometimes lead to bair follows too, which is cute. If you get 2 bairs then it's better then the dair stuff (40%+). Otherwise it's about the same (30%+).
But Luigi's rest punish is simple at heart - he has such a ridiculous KO for it that he doesn't need a very complex low percent / mid percent punish game like Sheik and Peach and such. He can do it more Fox style. Not needing to charge Up+B for the KO potential is also a huge boon over stuff like Fox u-smash and Marth f-smash.
Bing
Smash Master
hmm... I never thought to up-B after taunt... I'll have to remember that
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ur dumb
10 ur dumbs
10 ur dumbs
Bing
Smash Master
I guess I can't troll around in friendlies? lmfao
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
There's trolling and there's just plain bad
Also don't you main Sheik now >_>
Don't tell me you're using Luigi for ICs and Puff...
Also don't you main Sheik now >_>
Don't tell me you're using Luigi for ICs and Puff...
Bing
Smash Master
Falco/Sheik yes.
And god no, I like using Falco vs those two MUs you mentioned(ICs and Puff) But we were just messing around for a bit
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
IMO the real reason to learn Falco when you play Sheik is for FD & PS vs Foxes since a lot of Sheiks dislike fighting Fox and it's an even MU but Falco beats Fox 60-40 IMO so it's a big improvement. And it's easier to play. And Foxes often have Falco weaknesses. The only problem is Fox vs anyone is a huge learning curve 'cuz he's so versatile so it's tough to play a secondary vs him for experience reasons. So might as well use Sheik.
Might be worth looking into though. Learn how to beat his DJ aerials with u-tilt and the 0-deaths on FD and then you have a gay CP vs Foxes that are Sheik-savvy. Neutral game on FD is all based off of forcing Fox to jump in a punishable manner, or eat a shine if you put offense on him. And then just roll a 0-death on him and GG McCloud.
Falco vs Puff is just dairing her whenever possible and dairing her more after that to produce what looks vaguely like a combo (since forced tech is the closest thing to a stun combo you can do to Puff [aside from an IC infinite]). Otherwise be safe (laser, bair, nair, u-tilt, shine-grab pressure, safe strings over long ones, etc). U-throw combos into stuff so shine-grab liberally. Don't force kills. If she's on the ground, try to keep her there (so you can dair her). Hold away to avoid u-throw rest whenever it seems like you messed up and could get shield grabbed.
Falco vs ICs is ******** but I hear d-tilt is good, shine-retreat dair/nair are good, f-smash can be spaced vs shield as an effective poke, and jumping over ice blocks with no FF avoids a lot of ice block patterns. Gimp Nana however possible. Learn how to SDI the dair CG. Bizarre MU.
Might be worth looking into though. Learn how to beat his DJ aerials with u-tilt and the 0-deaths on FD and then you have a gay CP vs Foxes that are Sheik-savvy. Neutral game on FD is all based off of forcing Fox to jump in a punishable manner, or eat a shine if you put offense on him. And then just roll a 0-death on him and GG McCloud.
Falco vs Puff is just dairing her whenever possible and dairing her more after that to produce what looks vaguely like a combo (since forced tech is the closest thing to a stun combo you can do to Puff [aside from an IC infinite]). Otherwise be safe (laser, bair, nair, u-tilt, shine-grab pressure, safe strings over long ones, etc). U-throw combos into stuff so shine-grab liberally. Don't force kills. If she's on the ground, try to keep her there (so you can dair her). Hold away to avoid u-throw rest whenever it seems like you messed up and could get shield grabbed.
Falco vs ICs is ******** but I hear d-tilt is good, shine-retreat dair/nair are good, f-smash can be spaced vs shield as an effective poke, and jumping over ice blocks with no FF avoids a lot of ice block patterns. Gimp Nana however possible. Learn how to SDI the dair CG. Bizarre MU.
Bing
Smash Master
Yeah Im sort of In between maining Sheik and Falco, but I kind of like the way you worded it... In regards to MUs you went through, thank you telling me the IC's one.. Of course I try avoid Ice block patterns and remove Nana, but other then then I normally try to apply shield pressure and poke through. I also like Shine bairs if I can get them... but thank you. I shall change my total outlook on that MU.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Shine bairs are okay. But in a perfect world you want them airborne more than anything else because ICs have terrible combo break options once you familiarize yourself with their counters. So ideally you find a way to launch them. Also, Nana is nice & predictable in the air and is easy enough to KO off the top with shine > firebird.
Ideally you hit dairs or shines but those require some tech skill and even then they're not totally safe because of the nature of aerial-shine pressure windows. Furthermore, the fact that shine-grabs (main way to create blockstring safety) are poor vs them also complicates your typical pressure game. So a lot of people have gone for a more poking oriented style. Emphasizing strategies that SH offensively (or roughly in place to control a spot) and wait for their action, then pick your aerial based on what they're doing and go from there. You can also use safe ground moves (again, why d-tilt is so good) because it's safe vs shield grab, launches on hit, and is strong (relevant vs crouch). Low aerial into shine into retreat jump or a second shine or FJ or retreat rising aerial is pretty safe too.
Bair is good mostly because you can stick them between the stage and the ICs if you get them in that position and it's frighteningly hard for them to get by it. It's something Fox does and Falco can mimic it fairly effectively. He actually benefits from his higher damage normals here. Mixed up properly, it's hard for them to get by him. Often they just turtle up under the plat and try to play out of that position but that's hard for its own reasons. And Falco can maneuver around their blizzard or just disrupt it outright if he's clever with his laser or movement.
Ideally you hit dairs or shines but those require some tech skill and even then they're not totally safe because of the nature of aerial-shine pressure windows. Furthermore, the fact that shine-grabs (main way to create blockstring safety) are poor vs them also complicates your typical pressure game. So a lot of people have gone for a more poking oriented style. Emphasizing strategies that SH offensively (or roughly in place to control a spot) and wait for their action, then pick your aerial based on what they're doing and go from there. You can also use safe ground moves (again, why d-tilt is so good) because it's safe vs shield grab, launches on hit, and is strong (relevant vs crouch). Low aerial into shine into retreat jump or a second shine or FJ or retreat rising aerial is pretty safe too.
Bair is good mostly because you can stick them between the stage and the ICs if you get them in that position and it's frighteningly hard for them to get by it. It's something Fox does and Falco can mimic it fairly effectively. He actually benefits from his higher damage normals here. Mixed up properly, it's hard for them to get by him. Often they just turtle up under the plat and try to play out of that position but that's hard for its own reasons. And Falco can maneuver around their blizzard or just disrupt it outright if he's clever with his laser or movement.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
The only OoS options Luigi has against Marth is WD > whatever you want after getting fsmashed, or
usmash OoS if his landing aerials don't push you away far enough.
Taunt is ACTUALLY a really good rest punish if they don't CC it.
The last 4 posts have been about mustache-less high tiers. BEGONE WITH THEM!!!!! (I used Fox for an hour last night. . . teehee. It was a blast)
I've been trying this new mix-up that works really well on characters that make it difficult to get inside due to their strong defense like Sheik and Falco. Once you've established a proper space between them, SH aerial to bait a forward attack then buffer roll behind them and SH nair. It's cute.
usmash OoS if his landing aerials don't push you away far enough.
Taunt is ACTUALLY a really good rest punish if they don't CC it.
The last 4 posts have been about mustache-less high tiers. BEGONE WITH THEM!!!!! (I used Fox for an hour last night. . . teehee. It was a blast)
I've been trying this new mix-up that works really well on characters that make it difficult to get inside due to their strong defense like Sheik and Falco. Once you've established a proper space between them, SH aerial to bait a forward attack then buffer roll behind them and SH nair. It's cute.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think rolling behind Sheik's SH bair into jab or d-smash is a really underrated strat if you do it like once or twice in a set total (unless they're ******** and keep letting it work in which case go for it). I saw an ICs do it vs me once and he got me. It never worked again, but I think if they're absentminded about defending a spot you could use it to sneak up on them. I think the key to beating Sheik is finding a way in without WDing. I think trading nair with f-tilt is also something to work looking into...
I think getting behind her SH fair might also be a good way to close distance and maybe get combat initiated. Roll while she's rising with SH (so this sadly requires a mild predict) and then engage her however you can...
Just random ideas.
I think getting behind her SH fair might also be a good way to close distance and maybe get combat initiated. Roll while she's rising with SH (so this sadly requires a mild predict) and then engage her however you can...
Just random ideas.
Vudujin
Smash Lord
Yeah, keyword being mix-up. Only the trolliest of Luigi's would just roll around a Sheik non-stop and try to nair her.
I do agree with your notion of avoiding WD'ing as the final "in" for your approach. Luigi really needs frames on his side in that match-up; the lag on the WD approaching usually means that you're getting jabbed out of it or putting a hitbox out early and rolling in with it only to get clanked or CC'd. His u-smash, d-smash, f-smash, u-tilt, and f-tilt can cover Sheik's approaches. You just have to be spaced for a dash attack, and you can do most of those moves out of a walk with promising results.
I do agree with your notion of avoiding WD'ing as the final "in" for your approach. Luigi really needs frames on his side in that match-up; the lag on the WD approaching usually means that you're getting jabbed out of it or putting a hitbox out early and rolling in with it only to get clanked or CC'd. His u-smash, d-smash, f-smash, u-tilt, and f-tilt can cover Sheik's approaches. You just have to be spaced for a dash attack, and you can do most of those moves out of a walk with promising results.