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The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

Discussion in 'Luigi' started by Smash G 0 D, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. Smash G 0 D

    Smash G 0 D
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    • Back Roomer
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    [​IMG]
    The Official Luigi Matchup Database
    So I'm creating a new thread so that we can start fresh, and in a more organized manner.

    Basically we'll pick one character at a time and discuss:

    -Win/lose ratio (e.g. Luigi vs Fox is 95:5 in Luigi's favor)
    -What can LUIGI do to win this matchup?
    -What should we WATCH OUT FOR in this matchup?
    -What stages should you counterpick and why?
    -What stages should you ban and why?
    If you guys could provide a short summary of the matchup, especially after you've made posts giving detailed information about the above, then this thread would love you forever! ^_^

    Note: When considering stages we are assuming that we are only using Luigi, and no secondaries. We all use different secondaries. :3

    I'll add some cool stuff as the thread moves along, like a separate part where you can see stages and who you should CP TO that stage and who you should ban that stage against and stuff.

    Let's start with Fox. We've discussed the crap out of him so this should be fairly easy. :D

    Let us begin!

    How to submit information -
    Fill out the following form.

    Ratio:

    What can Luigi do?:

    What should Luigi watch out for?:

    What stage should Luigi counterpick?:

    What stage should Luigi ban?:

    Summary:

    Anything else you would like to add:

    Feel free to ask any poster about information they posted - healthy discussion leads to more accurate information.
    And be respectful when doing so. Thanks! ^_^



    [​IMG]
    FOX

    Smash God's Post - I'm gonna edit this a little bit - I've learned better since I made that post last year. :p

    Discussion: Pages 1 - 4

    [​IMG]
    MARIO

    Discussion: Pages 5 - 8
     
  2. Smash G 0 D

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    • Back Roomer
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    I guess I'll start.

    FOX

    Ratio (Luigi : Fox): 42.4 : 57.6

    What can Luigi do?:
    Aight, first of all, Luigi can combo the hell out of Fox. He's fast, so juggle combos will rack up damage on Luigi HELLA fast. Dsmash at 0% will probably go into Dsmash. You can throw Utilts in there and finish with an aerial. Start combos with Uthrow/Dthrow into turnaround Dsmash or Ftilt or something - it's all basically free damage. You just have to land the starting move!
    Also, at 0%, you might as well learn the CG with Uthrow. Which turns into a WD CG at above like 50% (see: Ka-M). It's definitely worth learning because it makes FD all the better a CP for Fox. You can finish the CG with Dsmash aerial or something and you'll have a VERY solid combo.

    Luigi also edgeguards Fox without much difficulty. You can hang on the ledge and drop Bair almost any sort of recovery attempt he pulls out when he's below the edge line (imaginary horizontal line coming from the ledge). Luigi's Dair goes through firefox, and fireballs will make him drop.
    You can mix up edgeguarding against Fox a LOT. Example: lower tilted Ftilt to cancel phantasm, drop down and Bair him into the stage for a stage spike. I find this easier to land on Battlefield, but I've seen it done on Dreamland, so it's easily done on pretty much any stage if you read the phantasm. It's not something you should RELY on, but it's just an example of how creative you can get.
    Fair/Dair/Bair will all beat Fox's recovery moves. Once you get Fox off the stage with Bairs/Ftilt/Throws, it should be easy pie. That's the mindset I put on when edgeguarding Fox. You have to read his recovery, and throw out the according move.
    If he recovers up and onto the stage, you can just try and read where he's going to land and Ftilt or aerial or throw him back off - with a good read and Luigi's speedy wavedash, you can get to him as or before he lands on the ground.
    Your hits will be much stronger on Fox then his are on you, so you have to use this to your advantage. Fox can't combo nearly as well as Luigi can combo Fox.

    Oh and one more thing: coinspike.

    What should Luigi watch out for?:
    First of all - shine. Do NOT get shined off the stage. Luigi has a hard time recovering from a shinespike. And once you get shinespiked, you give Fox the time to get into a great position to shine you AGAIN even if you manage to recover.
    Against a reckless Fox, you CAN Uair him before he shines you - you just need to time it out. But this is not something you can rely on. Just don't get off the stage if he's near you.
    If Fox shines you ON the stage, then Luigi will slide pretty far away. From here Fox can just laser you and force you to approach again, or you'll just be taking damage and wasting time trying to dodge his laser.
    Sometimes it's better to just keep sliding away and get hang onto the ledge he shined you towards - it's a safe place to gather your momentum again and you won't get hit by lasers while you're down there.
    I need confirmation on this, but is it possible to CC Fox's Nair and attack him with Dsmash or something before he shines you? I feel like Nair -> Shine isn't that dangerous for Fox to try.
    Basically with Fox, you want to get away before he gets you in the air. You're floaty, so that's where a lot of his damage will come from - aerial combos.
    Usmash will kill you fairly early. Probalby like 60%-70%ish? Maybe more towards 75%. I know it kills Jiggs at 55% on most stages, so I'm using that as a base.
    Don't get Uthrown. Fox can go for an Uair (which you can DI out of) or run away and laser camp.
    Recovering: be VERY careful. Remember, you don't want to get shined! If you're UpB-ing onto the ledge, make sure you sweetspot it PROPERLY. If you're too high, Fox can CC the coin and shine you, then grab the ledge and you're pretty much dead. If you're sweetspotting it properly, he has to drop down and shine you. If you're doing this properly and you're hugging the wall of the side of the stage, you'll just get shined into the wall and be able to UpB again. The only downside to this is you'll take damage, but you'll stay alive.

    Oh also, I think if you're trying to wavedash towards him with a shield, lasers will stop your wavedash. Just watch out for that.

    What stage should Luigi counterpick?:
    If you can CG, FD is not a bad choice at all. He has lasers here, but the side of the stage works for you in terms of sweetspotting the ledge for recovery, and Luigi has a solid edgeguarding game here. Besides that, it's combo central. Fox will just fall into hit after hit. If you can CG very well, you can probably get a 0-death. DK can do it, and so can we!
    Now, I'm weird, but I like Pokemon Stadium vs Fox. Most people will disagree, but it's like FD with platforms and I love platforms. The only stuff Fox really has here is space to space his aerials and a lower ceiling to kill earlier with an Usmash. Luigi's got some nice combos, and fairly small walls for good Chop kills. Meh. For the record, I've landed a shoryuken kill on a Fox here out of shielding his dash attack.
    If the Fox is aggressive, Dreamland is an aight stage. Just be sure he won't camp. You get very nice platforms here for some good mobility options, and a solid edgeguarding game with a nice wall to sweetspot UpB's on.
    Yoshi's Story = early kills for both of you, early. I feel like it benefits Luigi more, though, because it's easy to take Fox off the stage here. And with Randall and a wall, getting shinespiked isn't terribad.
    At Battlefield, the edges mess up Fox pretty bad. You get mobility here and ledge gimps (recovery is predictable, if he doesn't go for ledge, punish him with aerials through the platform, etc.) Fox gets the usual stuff. It's hard for Fox to laser camp you here, and you can get away from combos fairly easily with the platforms. The ledges DON'T hurt Luigi as much as you might think - you CAN green missile onto the ledge, if you aim for JUST above where you would be hanging. You'll stop in a way that you can drop and UpB right onto the ledge. This is the CP of choice for many Luigi players against Fox.
    You can't really go wrong with Fountain of Dreams. You get the platforms for mobility, and decent combo space. Small sides = earlier kills than Fox will get on you. The short platforms give you good pressure options like Nair/Bair into drop through platforms with more Nair/Bair (or drop cancel if you're a beast).

    What stage should Luigi ban?:
    Fortunately, there aren't any really bad stages vs Fox. It depends on your preference and how the Fox plays.
    If you don't mind any of them, you might as well just ban Kongo Jungle 64 (the ledges suck for recovering), although even there you get a lot of space for dodging Fox's attempts at approaching you.
    Or ban Brinstar. I honestly have very little experience with this stage and don't know what the matchup is like here, but maybe I'd ban it just so I can stay in my comfort zone.
    At Rainbow Cruise, Fox can run away. Same goes for Pokefloats. But not many Foxes will pick these stages against Luigi.

    Summary:
    Luigi has great combos on Fox, once you land the initial hit. Be smart when recovering so as to not get shinespiked. Luigi's floatiness will make it easier for Fox to combo with Nairs/Bairs. Shine will send you far away, but be smart with what you do from here - instead of trying to get back ASAP, get yourself into a safe position and try not to let Fox get free damage on you with lasers.
    There isn't any Starter stage that gives Fox a huge advantage over Luigi, so just CP and ban certain stages to stay in your comfort zone and you should do fine.

    Anything else you would like to add:
    From 0%: Uthrow -> [Turn-around] Dsmash -> (if they miss the tech) Jab reset -> Shoryuken!
    0%-52%
    It isn't guaranteed, but it works.
    I'VE LANDED IT IN TOURNEY.


    I might edit this with more/specifics later on.

    If I said anything incorrect, please let me know! If you just want to disagree for the sake of disagreeing, feel free so that we can start a discussion and I can edit this post to be even better and you can make yours better! :D

    That way the OP will have the most accurate information possible.
     
  3. otg

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    Smash Master

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    I would think BF would be really bad vs. Fox, you're already limited *** recovery now has to deal with the weird lip and ledges of battlefield. Plus if you're sideBing as you recover to get into position to upB the ledge, you have to be INCREDIBLY precise not to get underneath the stage or you're pretty much dead regardless of what % you're at.

    Personally I would stay away from it, but I don't main Luigi so wtf do I know?
     
  4. Smash G 0 D

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    LOL I completely forgot to mention that.

    "I came back to edit my post after having lunch and I was like hey why didn't I add BF in here? I'll do that now!"

    Tanx!

    EDIT: kdone
     
  5. Flonomenalz

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    This is a really nice thread, I think I might do one for Falco since it's like my favorite match up. Will edit it in after I eat. Also, I don't think it's necessary to do one for Marth since we already have an entire thread for that somewhere, but if someone feels like it then go ahead.
     
  6. Smash G 0 D

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    Well, we'll still do Marth, but I'll link to that thread in it.

    But the point of this is to get multiple people to do the same characters so we get multiple opinions :p If you wanna add your input for Fox, now's the time.

    I look forward to your Falco post when we get to him, though.
     
  7. Flonomenalz

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    Okay, I didn't realize you wanted us to do them one at a time lol, I just wrote one on Falco, but I saved it and will re-post when we're on Falco.

    As for Fox.... you pretty much covered everything I think. CC his n-air into a d-smash works very well iirc, because due to Luigi's weird physics, the n-air when CC'd pushes him back a little bit sometimes, which can occasionally put you out of shine range and still leave you able to punish with a d-smash.
     
  8. Smash G 0 D

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    Well... that works too.

    I'll just keep this post in mind and update it into the OP when we discuss Falco.

    ^_^ Thanks for the input!
     
  9. Winston

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    The thing is, if you're side bing that low towards the stage you're getting auto shinespiked by fox anyway.

    So, I don't see why the edges are a problem. Fox loses more in terms of recovery.
     
  10. Smash G 0 D

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    But if you sideB low on a stage like FD, depending on where Fox is, you'll still live even with a risk of getting shinespiked. If you hug the wall and get shined out of UpB, you're still fairly safe.
     
  11. otg

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    Smash Master

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    On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
    This is really what I'm getting at.
     
  12. Wenbobular

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    No you're not ... Fox just shine spikes you again ...
    And if you're side-b is too low you're not recovering ... period. Unless you have some godly down-b mashing skills

    I feel like a lot of this advice is for Foxes that don't have Luigi experience.

    I.e.

    Dsmash at 0 pretty sure doesn't knock Fox over so I think he actually has frame advantage
    I don't think Foxes that know how to shorten the illusion are easy to edgeguard at all ~_~
    DI back on Luigi kills so many combo options at killing %...it's just knowing to DI back when Luigi grabs you
    That combo just sounds so implausible ... ~_____~ maybe if they were like, not holding directions or teching or anything

    Even if it works
    Why would you up-b???
    Dsmash -> aerial, grab -> aerial ... stuff that might actually knock them off the ledge and do more damage in the process seems much better

    Some of the stuff is decent, some of it just sounds like it'd never work

    If you're going to Syphers we should get some friendlies :lick:
     
  13. Smash G 0 D

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    I want to respond to your post but I'm about to leave so I'm making this post so I can edit it when I get home kthx

    Can't go to Sypher's which I'm HELLA mad about.

    Maybe epsilon's next Friday.

    And trust me, the wall is a godsend if you're getting shinespiked.

    More edits when I get home.
     
  14. Wenbobular

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    It's not a godsend if it's just delaying the inevitable :lick:
    It saves you from one shinespike, but if the Fox is smart they still have their jump and float there, waiting to shinespike you again.
    If you get shinespiked into the wall a 2nd time, they're now low enough to sweetspot the ledge with their 2nd jump, or at least make it back to ledge height by the time you up-b which generally makes the 3rd shinespike send you away from the stage

    I usually don't have to shinespike 3 times though :p usually by the 2nd one I can land a shine that sends you away and then you're just so doomed

    ~_~
     
  15. Smash G 0 D

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    Btw, as for that combo I mentioned, I know it's REALLY hard to believe and sounds TOTALLY implausible. Like I said - it isn't guaranteed. BUT it WILL land more than you think it will. I've landed it like 5 times in tournament. And more than that in friendlies.

    Here's my point: Wall > no wall. You have a CHANCE of survival, depending on what the Fox does. With no wall, you're dead either way.

    Going out of town. Be back on Monday.
    I might check up on SWF through my phone. Just maybe.

    EDIT: I may have made a mistake. The combo I mentioned might just be Uthrow -> Dsmash -> Jab Reset Shoryuken, no Nair.

    I guess you'll land it if they don't tech. If they do tech, then punish with grab if they shield or chase with WD into grab or Dsmash or something.

    Someone else make a write-up for Fox o:!
     
  16. Wenbobular

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    Smash Hero

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    Why am I like one of the most active posters in this forum at the moment
    I don't even play Luigi
     
  17. Rappster

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM4N_uRR7UQ

    i think he's right
     
  18. Smash G 0 D

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    That was pretty nice, but it won't work on FD. There's an incline.

    I'll see if I can test to see if it works on YS against Luigi.

    But again, my point is that wall > no wall.
     
  19. Wenbobular

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    I disagree because no wall means less options for Fox ... because where Luigi is almost always dead against a competent Fox, Luigi still has to guess between a sweetspot from below, a just above the ledge Firefox, or a higher angle.

    Battlefield also makes the straight at the ledge option dangerous because it's a jerk and decides to just kill you most of the times you try

    Edgeguarding Fox when he's above is a huge guessing game regardless of what you do ~_~
     
  20. Winston

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    The stage doesn't matter much as far as shinespikes go. It's as simple as shinespike, double jump grab the edge, if the first one didn't kill then drop down shinespike again with ledge invincibility. Repeat as necessary. If the luigi up b's early then he passes right through fox, and fox simply double jumps and grabs the edge for the edgehog.

    The edge isn't a reason to dislike the stage vs. fox. Vs other characters, maybe.

    if it's relevant to you, Vist likes to pick the stage vs fox sometimes.
     
  21. Smash G 0 D

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    Meh, I guess it's preference/the Fox player.

    Battlefield will suck for Fox's recovery. Other stages give walls.

    I think with the walls, because you're forcing the Fox to look at more options, there's a higher chance he'll mess up. And you can't assume he won't mess up, because then you might as well just give up. xP
     
  22. Wenbobular

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    .... What?

    I don't think relying on your opponent messing up is a terribly great strategy.

    With Battlefield you limit his below the stage options to often just 1 or 2 angles, as opposed to 3 angles that each require you to do something different to cover them ... which is pretty huge ~_~
     
  23. Smash G 0 D

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    Well I guess so. I'm gonna test that shine down the wall thing today.
     
  24. Winston

    Winston
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    I'll make a post about the stuff I want to add later.

    But first, the stuff I disagree with/comments on your stuff:

    ????

    - Luigi's combos on Fox are alright, but I'm pretty sure these characters have better combo games on Fox:
    Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Falcon, Doc, ICs, DK at least. Jigglypuff too if you count all the ways she can gimp/rest Fox. Peach, Pikachu, Mario, and Mewtwo are probably tied with Luigi.

    - If you dsmash fox at 0 he has frame advantage; it's not gonna lead to another dsmash unless he does nothing.

    - throw -> smash combos are bread and butter and pretty effective, but with DI they only set up for techchases and not true combos. At the percents where you are trying to do dsmash -> finisher, if they DI the dsmash it generally won't combo into a finisher.
    I think you are exaggerating a LOT when you say "it's basically all free damage". Techchasing is the key to getting big punishes vs. Fox, and techchasing isn't free damage (at least nobody currently has the reaction time to make it so with Luigi).

    - utilt is one of the more reliable ways to combo at mid percents, provided you control your wavedash length so you don't overshoot them while chasing their DI.

    I think mixing in 0-2 uthrow regrabs is very good to do at the low percents (like sub 20) because
    A. they might miss the back DI
    B. it might throw off their tech timing.
    C. uthrow -> usmash is way better at like 10 percent than 0 percent.

    However, there's a segment around 30% where dash regrab doesn't work anymore and I feel like no Luigi player currently can react fast enough to make chaingrabbing reliable at those percents. Feel free to link me to a video if you think I'm wrong about this, but I'll have to see it in action consistently before I'm convinced.

    I think chaingrabbing is viable above 50 or so, but even then it's pretty hard and I've never seen it reliably done until somewhat higher percents.

    Again, pretty much all the characters above Luigi on the tier list edgeguard Fox as well or better than him. It's very easy to edgeguard Fox when he has to up b from below the stage line, or from very far out. However, Luigi lacks an extremely strong combo finisher like the knee or tipper, so vs. an opponent with good DI the usual dsmash/throw -> dair combo finish will put them in a position above the stage where they have a lot of options. He also lacks good horizontal aerial mobility and a speedy diagonal up b, so he can't cover options by aggressively edgeguarding offstage (when they are above the horizontal line) like falcon/mario/marth can.

    You usually have to make at least a 50/50 read to edgeguard successfully in these cases.

    I agree with this. If he has to up b below the stage line and not far from the edge horizontally, ALWAYS go down there and kill him. Depending on the situation, use fair/dair/bair.

    for some reason the downward angle ftilt seems to let the grab the edge even if they get hit by it sometimes. I don't really know how it works. Also, going for stagespikes is pretty bad if you have other alternatives, imo. A lot of players expect shenanigans when they are recovering and tech by habit. In the setup you described, you have time to grab the edge - > drop down with a dair to hit them away from the stage hopefully.

    Again, biggg oversimplification. Fox actually has a ton of recovery options. Obviously Luigi can edgeguard Fox, but in my mind a character edgeguards another character well if he can cover the options in most common situations without having to make a read. This isn't the case for Luigi/Fox imo. If someone can describe to me a method to cover all/most of the various firefox angles and illusion heights, as well as shortened illusion sweetspots, I'd be happy to be disproven. In every situation I'm sure Luigi can bring his success rate to at least 50/50 if he executes very well, but we have to do a lot better than that if we want to say that Luigi edgeguards Fox "easily".

    I think Fox's combo/punishment game on Luigi is pretty much just as good as Luigi's is on Fox. Maybe if Luigi is godly at ccing and smash DIing on reaction this isn't the case, but Fox has a lot more stuff on Luigi than most people realize.

    Luigi can definitely CC/ASDI down dsmash, and I think it's one of his essential defenses in the matchup so that Fox doesn't just walk all over you for free with nair pressure. You can't rely on it too much, though. Like always, Fox can mix in drills if you are just CC spamming.

    Also, if the fox is technical and fastfall/l cancels quickly, then often ASDI down downsmash won't work because you don't get the reduced stun. It's still really important to ASDI down every nair that you can, though, because if he actually knocks you into the air then you are in trouble.

    Rainbow Cruise is a semi-popular counterpick vs Luigi. I don't honestly know how the matchup plays out there, though.

    I think Kongo Jungle 64 allows Fox to win by timing you out if he really wants to, but almost nobody tries to do this.

    I already said my bit on this; I think Battlefield is a fine stage vs. Fox, unless you know that the Fox won't edgeguard you properly and will let you recover on other stages.

    :urg:
     
  25. Smash G 0 D

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    Dammit, I was TWO SENTENCES away from finishing my post quoting Winston. Blagh. I'm just gonna list stuff now.

    1. I'll start with this - I'm extremely optimistic when I post about MUs. That's just my mindset - I can't play well without that mindset so it comes out when I post because that's how I'm thinking when I play the match.

    2. Other characters combo-ing as well as Luigi does doesn't take away from his combo-ing potential on Fox.

    3. CG-ing is hard, sigh. :[

    4. Oversimplification comes from my over-optimism. I just list the moves I think about when edgeguarding Fox, and then let the reads come when I play.

    5. I've been proved wrong about Battlefield. I was even playing on it myself the other day and had no problem with mid-greenmissile recoveries. You can slam into the edge and still be able to catch the ledge with UpB or just cyclone or whatever you need to do. I was just thinking about the possibility of survival that walls give you as opposed to the certain death of getting shined below BF.

    6. I SWEAR IT'S NOT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE. I've landed that combo at least 3 times in tourney. That's just for when I feel like being a **** and I felt like I should share it with yall. ;P

    I'm gonna edit my post now. Thanks for the corrections, guys!
     
  26. Winston

    Winston
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    1). Optimism is great for when you play the match, but I feel like if you're discussing a matchup you need to look realistically at the tools available to you and what your opponent can do to avoid them. A matchup guide isn't as helpful when it's like "to edgeguard, just use these moves appropriately, easy". That leaves out a lot of information.

    Again, my point isn't that you should be pessimistic about Luigi, but that a matchup guide should include unbiased information.

    2). I just think that the combo/techchase section needs to go way more in depth than "Luigi can combo Fox cuz Fox falls fast". Luigi has pretty limited combo potential if you leave it at that. Honestly almost every solid/big combo that Luigi lands that I've seen is either based on unintentional missed techs, bad DI, multiple tech reads, or some combination of those. I feel like at some point we have to stop relying on our opponents handing these to us and figure out how Luigi can consistently get big followups even if none of that happens.

    3). Yeah, CGing is hard ><. Someday someone will be able to do it consistently, but not from 30 I think.
     
  27. Pakman

    Pakman
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    WWMD

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    if you slightly hold down when you dash with any character you can CC while dashing.
     
  28. Winston

    Winston
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    Sigh, I really wish there was more discussion in the Luigi boards.

    I wanna post stuff but I don't think I understand most matchups well enough.
     
  29. Smash G 0 D

    Smash G 0 D
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    Leave Luck to Heaven

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    Winston, come to Max's smashfest today. I will most likely be there. Like 4-4:30 until 11, probably.

    His fests/tournies are hella fun. I hope we do draft crews.
     
  30. Wenbobular

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    We're moving in to college today haha
     
  31. Smash G 0 D

    Smash G 0 D
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    Nuuuuuuuuuuuuu D:<
     
  32. Winston

    Winston
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    We can probably make it to the next one/most of them =P
     
  33. Smash G 0 D

    Smash G 0 D
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    K I just got back. First of all:

    You guys are wrong about BF being a good CP for Fox. And I was right about walls. I've been playing Foxes ALL DAY and that's the conclusion I came to. I asked CK about it too when we were doing a bunch of Luigi vs Fox matches, and BF was the worst stage for Luigi.

    While playing against Fox, Luigi will have to get the ledge at some points. It's simply safer to have that wall because you can ride it without Fox being able to shine you. On BF, you can't move towards the stage to avoid getting shined because then you can't recover. And limiting Fox's recovery options is crap. He's easy enough to edgeguard on FD, and in fact it's easier than on BF. You just need to choose the right aerial or use Ftilt depending on where he is. BF makes it no more easier. Plus he gets the platform to recover onto and the top platform to camp on.

    I have some other stuff to add to the MU that I'll talk about in a bit. I'm tired right now. I might just redo my whole post, because now I've actually spent a good amount of time playing the matchup rather than just thinking about it theoretically.

    Side note - CK says he doesn't even think Vist would take him to BF. It's just a bad stage for the matchup, lol. Luigi needs the vs Fox ledgegames.
     
  34. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    I cosign that Battlefield is bad for Luigi.
     
  35. Winston

    Winston
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    @ KK, I dislike the stage in general for Luigi, but it shouldn't matter vs. Fox.

    @ Smash God

    I don't understand why citing CK's opinion makes yours correct. Explain how having a wall helps you get around this:

    Get ledge invincibility, drop down, shine. If he goes into the wall and is still within range of your drop down -> dj regrab the edge, drop down to shine him again. If he up Bs early while you are doing that, he goes through you, you dj grab the edge for the edgehog. If he goes too low for that, you will be able to edgehog him with a getup attack. During your getup attack if he down Bs instead of up Bs, grab the edge and shine him again.

    At Apex Vist counterpicked Tec0's fox to Battlefield after losing game 2 on Yoshi's. If FD is banned I think he is perfectly fine going there.

    I'm not arguing that Battlefield > FD as a CP, or that BF is a great stage overall. My point is just that the edge doesn't screw Luigi over vs. Fox really. It does in other matchups though.

    Also, how is it easier to edgeguard fox on FD than on Battlefield?
     
  36. Smash G 0 D

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    When you're hanging on the ledge at FD, you can drop and jump along the wall of the stage. Because of the way it curves in, Fox can't straight-up drop and shine you.

    At FD Fox can't even ride the wall of you're on the ledge because you just need to aerial.

    It's harder to edgeguard Fox at BF because he has more options that are harder to punish. On FD, he can go for the ledge or stage, which you can punish. If he goes high, then jump on the stage and punish with something fast. If he's too low, then he's dead. At BF, he can get on the platform or go for the ledge or stage. He can't ride the stage onto the ledge like on FD, but that doesn't matter because Luigi covers it anyways.

    Urgh I wish we had recorded the matches from yesterday.


    Also grabs are great in this matchup. Uthrow Dsmash at 0 is great for setups. You just need to read the tech and regrab or Dsmash again, and if he doesn't tech you can jab reset into shoryuken or a grab. If this occurs near the edge, definitely grab and throw him off, then edgeguard. It's a potential 0-death.
    Dthrow Ftilt works for a huge range of percents until they start DI-ing away, in which case you automatically know which way they'll go.
     
  37. Bamesy

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    I like the subtle similarity to my old LLL thread... perhaps you read it. lol

    Maybe I'll come back and share my thoughts if I feel it's needed. In the meantime, here's my thoughts on Falcon and Samus, probably applicable to every match up, if you're interested.
    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266567


    I like what you're all doing with this place. Keep it up.

    PS: FD good, BF not that good.

    :)
     
  38. KirbyKaze

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    I think BF is bad partly because the platforms a so darn high and Luigi moves slowly in the air.

    Fox moves significantly less slowly in the air.
     
  39. Blea Gelo

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    bf is good if u know hot to punish fo x in the platfomrs, u can take adventage of em. when u have a solid mental game, u can combo till forever
     
  40. Bamesy

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    I think BF is good for Sheik because the platforms are so dam high and she's great in the air.

    The edges are bad if you're not good in the air too.

    Sheik on BF is the worst thing for Luigi.
    That's what I'm afraid of anyway. :|
     

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