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Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

Winston

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Sheik is the perfect weight for comboing if the Sheik isn't making any inputs on their controller ><

Seriously, there's something called DI

About edgeguarding, I'd like to say that she has options to get past Luigi's ledgehop bair -> regrab the edge -> stand up -> up b if she recovers close enough to the stage, but I can't concretely outline what they are. Just that Plank was doing things to throw a wrench in that plan last time I played him. I could have been doing it wrong though.

If Luigi could refresh invincibility faster he'd be very very good at edgeguarding Sheik.
 

Winston

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Yeah I probably should have baired more aggressively offstage when he was below the stage.

I do think Luigi is good at edgeguarding Sheik, just mainly that he's bad at knocking her offstage far enough to really take advantage of it for consistently low percent KOs from edgeguarding.
 

Pakman

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You don't need low percent KO if you can keep her off stage and keep that damage up. A successful edge guard doesn't necessarily end when the opponent reaches the stage.
 

Winston

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Well, what I mean is, in situations where Sheik is forced to up B Luigi is very good at KOing/edgeguarding to build up damage and force more edgeguards on Sheik. However, he doesn't really combo into dair at percents that send Sheik offstage far enough for her to get edgeguarded. Dair isn't easy to land as a single hit, either. He can combo into chop/bair sometimes, and land ftilts, but those are weaker and will also not often send her far offstage.

So basically, I don't see "Luigi has good edgeguarding on Sheik" to imply that "Luigi can KO Sheik easily overall/Luigi has good punishment on Sheik overall".

I think like half the time that people get knocked offstage into an edgeguard by Luigi it's because of gimmicky stuff or unfamiliarity with how to DI his moveset, i.e. stuff that shouldn't work that often in the long run.

I guess Luigi has a lot of stuff out of throws near the edge where he can guess what they will do and gimp them for it, but I feel like most of those aren't even 50/50 shots, and they require you to be pretty near to the edge. Grabs are rare enough already.

Bthrow ftilt on fastfallers and fthrow ftilt on mid-floaties looks kind of promising but I haven't worked out how to use it optimally yet. Those are still quite situational too.
 

Pakman

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The issue with sheik is that it very easy for her to shut down your offense. Needles ruin wd approach. Aerials -> tilt has too much priority to counter (or even trade most of the time) and too fast to shield grab.
 

otg

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On my 5th 4 Loko and still ****** you.
On the topic of Mario vs. Luigi, I think the point about Mario's anti-air being better is almos moot. Luigi is going to be approaching from the ground for the most part, and even if Mario does land an utilt, he's at most going to land one or two before Luigi either nairs/any other aerial or double jumps out. Even if Mario calls the DJ and attempts to punish, it's not like he is really fast or has awesome range or a really good finisher in the air or on the ground that can be comboed into to REALLY do damage. At the most he'll get like, an uair or something.

I really can't comment on the rest of the matchup, tho I do think Luigi wins it, just had to point that out.
 

Winston

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Mario can get a couple hits sometimes. Sometimes he can legit combo a few hits, and then make a not too difficult read to get a few more. It'll end up being like 40% at best though provided the Luigi doesn't try to nair out every time like an idiot. He can't like combo into knee or something that really punishes Luigi hard.
 

A2ZOMG

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Mario can use fireballs to prevent Luigi from WDing freely, and it's entirely possible to tilt on reaction when Luigi WDs in range since WDing is about a 15-17 frame commitment. Combined with controlling the air significantly better (better land traps in general), and edgeguarding Luigi quite well, I do think the matchup is even. Mario isn't really as threatened by Luigi's zoning as he is by other characters, and he does have the tools to react to Luigi trying to approach.

He does have more trouble KOing, but B-air, Fireball, and Cape edgeguards more than make up for it as far as I'm concerned. Even if you do DI well, more often than not, you're going to take some hits before you make it back, and most of this situations, Luigi needs a misfire to make it back after taking hits to his recovery, which is uncommon enough to not really matter too much.
 

Winston

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Bair edgeguarding is total garbage. It sends at like a 60 degree angle if DIed, and it's really weak so it's not like it'll KO Luigi off the top until ludicrous percents. Mario's moves are super weak and Luigi has the luxury of recovering high against Mario, making bair edgeguarding pretty ineffective. Seriously, try playing vs a level 9 Luigi for a while. Knock him offstage with something other than a throw, bair edgeguard him a bit, and notice the trajectories that are available to him.

"Tilt on reaction" is cute. The thing is, the ability to tilt comes at the price of mobility, and Luigi has longer range than Mario. You won't win the matchup that way.

I understand that wavedashing is more of a commitment than most forms of movement, and baiting wavedashes and sticking moves in the way is a big part of being successful vs Luigi, but Mario's tilts are not the best things to do this with, and it's not a reason that Mario does particularly well in the matchup.
 

A2ZOMG

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I consider Mario primarily a spacing character when I analyze his tools, and matchups he does well in are ones where his spacing tools work well and give him control of the match. With the idea that Mario can control Luigi's WD and slow the match down with fireballs, U-tilt, and eventually F-smash (against a Luigi that relies less on WDing and more on poking), I think Mario has the tools to make this matchup even. Just most Mario users on youtube play Mario like Aggressive Fox or Captain Falcon, except for Scorpion Master and KoreanDJ lmao. With that kind of playstyle being so commonplace, it's really not a surprise to me that people think this matchup is terrible for Mario...when honestly, I think they're just playing suboptimally in an obscure matchup.

Not being able to kill that easily is fine since Luigi can be gimped with smart use of all of Mario's edgeguard tools, although random U-smashes can do the trick in anti-air situations. Also, Jabs -> D-smash, while better with Doc, are still great in this matchup.
 

A2ZOMG

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Before you consider that argument invalid, think for a moment what makes Scorpion Master the best Mario, able to beat people like Armada, Silentspectre, and Mew2King in tournament. It's because he has by far the best spacing of any Mario user that currently exists.

Mario's best strategy isn't offense, contrary to how popular it is. His best strategy is in fact spacing, and he has good tools for it. With a mixup tool that can bait shieldgrabs and juggles, one of the safest F-smashes in the entire game, a good anti-air U-tilt and F-tilt, and a B-air that can link into a waveland out of short hop, and a Jab sequence that is mostly safe on crouch cancel and tends to put people in F-smash range at low percents, Mario's game is pretty much built around the idea of spacing.

With that in mind, how does Luigi get in on a defensive Mario playstyle? WDs can be controlled by fireballs, and are susceptible to getting poked unlike other forms of mobility. Luigi should never really jump against Mario of course unless it's for juggles or punishes, and Mario does get good reward from Jab when it's not crouch canceled. And while Mario doesn't kill too easily, all of his Smashes are viable KO moves and besides F-smash have applicable setups. And edgeguards are important on both sides.

The biggest complaint I see from most Mario users is that Luigi has a lot of priority when they argue Luigi wins the matchup. Priority is NOT an issue for Mario however as I proved since he has the spacing tools to come out on top. Luigi does have more KO power though and sliiiightly more range damage on a few moves.

I call 50/50 at any rate. I believe Mario's spacing tools and ways to control Luigi justify it, and that proper use of all of Mario's edgeguard tools make up for somewhat inconsistent KO moves.
 

Pakman

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Fireballs might stop Luigi's WD, but they aren't lasers and don't stop his ground approach. They are one of the easiest projectile to attack cancel (just made that phrase up but I think you get it). I can hold my stick towards Mario and hit the A button whenever a fireball gets close and have a relatively safe approach. The second that the fireballs stop or Mario jumps, I go into wavedash mode.

Close quarters Luigi has the advantage. Better range, and better priority. And there is nothing Mario can do to keep Luigi away from him. Mario doesn't have the mobility to easily get away from a pressuring Luigi either.
 

A2ZOMG

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Every ****ing character in the game is based around spacing. And pretty much EVERYONE above Mario has more range then him.

HMMMMMM
Characters above Mario who are not based around spacing:

Fox and Falco either camp or rushdown
Sheik either camps or grabs
Falcon is primarily baits and rushdown

Mario plays better strict spacing games than those characters. Not that it actually wins him those matchups, except it makes him good against Falcon. Plus I'm pretty sure the general consensus is that Mario beats Doc, due to winning spacing wars with F-smash alone.

A slight range advantage up close is okay (ignoring that Mario has F-smash), but Luigi's grab reward is significantly worse, which matters just as much, since both characters safest closeup options are generally susceptible to crouch cancels.
 

otg

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I ignored your post again. Spacing and baiting aren't styles of play like Rushdown/camp/runaway/w'e.... they are things that you have to do with every single character in the game at all times if you want to win. To say that Sheik/spacies/whoever don't have to think or worry about their spacing is just flat out untrue, and makes me question your understanding of how this game is played.

Have you ever played a platform campy Falco as Mario? Who whores out bair all day? Tell me spacing isn't important for him then.

Also as for Doc vs. Mario, saying that Mario only wins cause of fsmash is once again ********. You seem to forget that Doc has a way better edgeguard, KO moves, projectile and CC game.
 

Pakman

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This thread is about Luigi, OTG. We all give 0 ****s about your ******* character.
IN TOURNAMENT

GTFO.

<3 OTG
 

A2ZOMG

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The point remains is that the majority of vids featuring this matchup don't represent the matchup well, and that a lot of Mario players unnecessarily do poorly in this matchup for trying too hard to play rushdown, when camping and defensive spacing is what actually works, and what Mario is ACTUALLY good at in general.

Of course everyone spaces. For the characters I mentioned, it usually isn't the best option. Specifically for Mario, it's a much more optimal option than the playstyle that most Mario users tend to use.
 

Wenbobular

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The point remains is that the majority of vids featuring this matchup don't represent the matchup well, and that a lot of Mario players unnecessarily do poorly in this matchup for trying too hard to play rushdown, when camping and defensive spacing is what actually works, and what Mario is ACTUALLY good at in general.

Of course everyone spaces. For the characters I mentioned, it usually isn't the best option. Specifically for Mario, it's a much more optimal option than the playstyle that most Mario users tend to use.
All like ... 3 of them played at a high level? It's like Mango vs Pakman at Apex2 ... in teams. Please post something that resembles high level play involving Mario vs Luigi in singles because I'm not sure any exist ¬.¬

Spacing usually isn't the best option? Is that what you're trying to say?
Spacing isn't an "option" or a "playstyle" which was what OTG was trying to tell you but apparently that just soared over your head.

Also poor spacing gets you killed regardless of character.
 

Pakman

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Aw, sorry Pakman. In all fairness, my Luigi is incredibly ****, you can ask Wes.
Nice. I am super rusty, so you should just take the role of Tristate Luigi.

Doc blows.

At Pound 3 I played friendlies with Green Mario and did rather well.

DJ Nintendo has a patient campy Mario and he NEVER picks Mario against me. He is probably very familiar with the match up from Mario's perspective so if He name searches we could probably get some good insight.

Summon DJNintendo.

Luigi doesn't obliterate Mario. It is a close match, but Luigi has the advantage. I've played Boss before and he knows most of the subtle stuff about Mario and he had trouble dealing with spacing and priority. Matches were very close though. Last hit last stock if I remember correctly.
 

A2ZOMG

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Spacing usually isn't the best option? Is that what you're trying to say?
Spacing isn't an "option" or a "playstyle" which was what OTG was trying to tell you but apparently that just soared over your head.

Also poor spacing gets you killed regardless of character.
Defensive spacing with the idea of utilizing pokes and anti-airs, minimizing risks, and never going for unreliable combos or followups is Mario's best strategy, and one he pulls off efficiently.

You don't need to have particularly on-point spacing with Falcon, Sheik, Fox, or Falco, when rather you control the match better through other means. But with Mario, on-point spacing is more important and optimal.

The vast majority of Mario mains play Mario more like Falcon or Aggressive Fox. Which is basically emphasis on rushdown and combos, much less conservative spacing. A playstyle that far from optimal against Luigi or many of Mario's matchups besides against like fastfallers.

And while Boss is great and all, I would generally criticize him for being too aggressive. Like...I watched his videos of Mario vs Chudat's ICs. He makes the Ice Climbers look much harder than they actually are, simply because he approaches too much and rarely ever tries defensive spacing.
 

Bamesy

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...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
Marth can't even space well against Luigi.
How is somebody with barely half that range, no disjointedness, less speed and less combos supposed to do better?
LOL

Wake up or shut up. hahah
Sorry that was mean but it was funny hahahah
Seriously though, end discussion.

Sheik...combos...mean
 

DJ Nintendo

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I didn't name search lol. I never do. I only post in matchup threads when I'm summoned lol. Pakman, I don't play campy anymore. I'm mad aggro now while still being defensive with every character lol. Although I can still camp it up depending on the situation.

Do you guys wanna know what Luigi should do and to expect against Mario/Doc or what Mario/Doc should do and expect against Luigi?
 

M@1funk$hun

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post both of those ideas in the appropriate threads =3
I think we just recently got off luigi in the mario boards. it's a hot topic nowadays
 

Bamesy

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...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
Why is there a post in the Luigi boards?
It's not allowed!

Don't CC Falcon...1/5 aerials will not be pleasant and it won't do you any good.

Grab, utilt, move lots and stay ON HIM.
Don't over commit as his punishes are too good.

General advice vs Falcon with every character. :/
 

Blea Gelo

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CC falcon nairs at low % works hella ****ing good. at low %. if you have reflects, ull be able to know if he's gonna nair or not.
also, it's not about moving a lot, it's about having spacing. try surprising him wif grabs/Utilts. Its hard to hit a falcon who knows the luigi matchup wif a surprising Dsmash, so tilts idea its better.
 

Wenbobular

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Dsmash is kinda bad in neutral game because Falcon just jumps over the hit box with stomp
CC when you know it's a Nair coming is amazing
 
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