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Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

Winston

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sighhhhh ><

I don't care if BF is a good stage or not; I don't pick it myself. The only reason I brought up Vist being okay with the stage is to support my original point, that the edges don't screw him over vs. Fox in relation to the non-FD stages. If Battlefield is a bad stage vs. Fox, which it might be, it's not because of the edges.

If we can just get on the same page with that point I'll shut up about it.

About FD edgeguarding, I still think it's pretty much guaranteed for Fox but we can save that for another day.

About grabs, there's a ton of stuff to talk about and I'll post the variations I know tomorrow maybe
 

Pakman

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The thing about silly grab combos with Luigi is that the way this game is played, many times getting a character off stage is more important than dealing more damage.
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
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Yeah, if you aren't near the edge the best thing is to get as much possible out of it as you can.

And Winston, I understand what you're saying about Battlefield. My point is that Luigi can benefit a lot from edges like FD's, but he doesn't get those advantages from BF.

Maybe it's just how MY Luigi plays o_O? Idk. I wish we could play irl so that we can see what each other mean more easily xP
 

Pakman

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In my experience, putting yourself at an advantage is generally more useful than putting the opposing character at a disadvantage. I always cringe when certain falcon players pick Yoshi's against peach because they don't want dream land. Falcon needs room to run around and benefits from a longer stage because his recovery blows.
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
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Agreed.

Also, I was just playing some Melee with lloD and I got shined off the stage with Luigi on FD but I went TOWARDS the stage and it actually saved me.
 

Winston

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Yeah we gotta play sometime. And I understand FD is a great stage. I'm just saying that FD is the ONLY stage that has that kind of edges, haha. I mean this whole debate was in response to otg suggesting that Battlefield is particularly bad because of the edges, not that Battlefield is bad in relation to FD.

Vs. Fox I'm thinking FoD might be the way to go if they ban FD... even though Stadium is kinda similar to FD, transformations are weird, + Foxes seem to thrive on that stage because of familiarity.

Dreamland has those high platforms and stuff.
 

Wenbobular

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Man
I can't wait to play Smashgod in SOOOO MUCH Fox vs Luigi

I don't think FD edges help you to the extent that you can rely on them vs higher level players / people with Luigi experience ... players that are good should come up with answers quickly enough (talking about Fox here) that FD won't really help and people with Luigi experience will just know what to do to shine you to death
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
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Wen, I look forward to playing you as well.

Bamesy, are you talking about Marth's Nairs or Fox's Nairs? I'm pretty sure we're talkin' about Fox, here.

Anyone else gonna write something up for Fox using the form in the OP?
 

Wenbobular

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Marth Nairs are pretty awesome though
I don't think Marths Nair enough vs Luigi

Also I think Bair can be just as big of a problem for Luigi as Nair
 

Pakman

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The toughest Marth other than M2K I've had to face is HBK and G$ is a close 3rd. I get killed by their nairs much more than fsmash. Their nairs are a safer way to get me off stage which a competent Marth can capitalize on quite easily.
 

thegreatkazoo

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What about fair? I would think well spaced Marth fairs would essentially put us on immediate defense.

Sorry I haven't been as inquisitive as I used to. :(
 

Pakman

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Fairs don't kill you. You are floaty enough that if you take a fair you can DI and not get a ridiculous combo started on you.

Fair is a strong somewhat safe pressuring move that Marth can do, but a well timed ftilt tilted upwards can screw with marth's spammability.
 

thegreatkazoo

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Fairs don't kill you. You are floaty enough that if you take a fair you can DI and not get a ridiculous combo started on you.

Fair is a strong somewhat safe pressuring move that Marth can do, but a well timed ftilt tilted upwards can screw with marth's spammability.
Fairs kill me? :lol:

No, I'm not that bad.

However, that pressure seems to get to me sometimes though. Nothing a WD OOS couldn't handle, no?

*Goes to practice more*
 

Wenbobular

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Late Fairs you can get between the hits, also his arm is kinda just sticking out there
Early Fairs you can just chop out of shield or something
Nair doesn't give you an arm to hit, it's like all sword...it also autocancels for more shenanigans

Anyways, more Fox discussion ~_~ haha
 

Wenbobular

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I pick Falco because Winston just listed that as a 30-70 matchup and I think it's bad but I don't think it's 30-70 bad
Not that I know what 30-70 bad is like really...
 

Pakman

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The difficulty of this match-up is stage dependent.

The reason this match is so hard is that Luigi's primary means of horizontal movement is wavedashing. Lasers ruin your wavedashes.

Powershielding lasers and wavelandin around on platforms are the only ways to make this match manageable versus competent falcos.

You cannot challenge falco from below you need to be above him or get into close range even ground. If the falco starts his shield pressure nonsense, you have lost momentum, get away and wait for another opportunity.
 

Wenbobular

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Step it up Luigis, how am I being warned that I may be bumping an old thread ~_~

The denizens of the Mario boards want to know what you guys think of the matchup haha

I play neither character so I have no idea

In theory I think caping Luigi's missile is very doable and thus Mario's edgeguarding is quite good but I don't think I ever see anyone do it
Luigi has that big Bair to stuff your up-b attempts though and he's floaty enough that Mario's fast up-b doesn't offer nearly as much protection compared to characters that can't just float there for infinity time

As for the neutral game ...
Mario does moves
Luigi does moves
They can't really combo each other
As far as I can tell

...<_<
My excellent analysis of this matchup
Yep
 

Pakman

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Luigi out ranged Mario. That is his main advantage.

If Luigi recovers high, Mario can't punish well. All Mario's killing moves can be DIed so that recovering high is generally feasible. If you have to use your up B to recover, you are basically screwed.

However, on stage I feel Luigi has the advantage. You can get through fireball spam pretty easily. Mario's recovery is predictable and doesn't have a lot of room for useful variation. Luigi has more mobility and range which makes a hit and run strategy effective. Mario can't punish as well from throws. Luigi can dthrow into aerial stuff.

Don't get me wrong, Mario is no push over, but I think Luigi has the slight advantage. Mario has the edge in edgeguarding but Luigi has the edge on stage.

Without more thought, I'd say Mario Luigi is like 55/45 in Luigi's favor.
 

Winston

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I think Mario is somewhat Luigi favored and Doc is slight Doc favored or even. ease of KO makes all the difference. Doc can edgeguard high Luigi recoveries wayyy better.

btw, how do you get through fireball spam easily? Does this apply to pills also?
 

Pakman

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I think Mario is somewhat Luigi favored and Doc is slight Doc favored or even. ease of KO makes all the difference. Doc can edgeguard high Luigi recoveries wayyy better.

btw, how do you get through fireball spam easily? Does this apply to pills also?
They are slightly different, but the idea is the same. Pills are all about timing. You can go under full jump pills and ftilt through standing pills.

Fireballs generally need to be attacked. Try not to jump over them if you don't have to. Just walk (not wd or run) and ftilt incoming fireballs until he jumps, then close the gap with a wavedash and play the spacing game.
 

A2ZOMG

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The main thing that nobody mentions about Mario vs Luigi is that Mario's anti-air is by far superior. Although Mario doesn't have very good combos on Luigi, his D-throw sets up into U-tilt juggles extremely well, and Luigi's options around U-tilt are pretty bad, since all his aerial attacks basically just lose to U-tilt. On the flip side, Luigi doesn't have nearly as consistent anti-air options, so he doesn't keep Mario in the air quite as easily.
 

Bamesy

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Hey it's November now!

Today (last night after midnight) I picked up Luigi again!
Hurray. Played him last night in a few consecutive matches, first time since July
Woopwoop

Luigi > Mario and Doc.
He's just better at that weight differencial and can move with range the way Marth can in comparison.
As well, off stage means **** if you can't get them there.
Everything Luigi does pushes Mario/Doc off, Mario/Doc can't push Luigi off.
Luigi ***** people offstage too.
PS: The Doc I play all dai might not have the best defensive game and DI, but Luigi can combo anything more than anything can combo him.
Except Falcon or Marth or Sheik lol
They're 'maybes' or 'evens'

:)
 

A2ZOMG

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No offense, but that analysis barely makes sense.

And Mario juggles Luigi like a pro with U-tilt, while Luigi barely can do the same back in comparison (plus, Luigi's D-throw and U-throw are awful). Also Mario/Doc have good N-airs that send you sideways.
 

Winston

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The main thing that nobody mentions about Mario vs Luigi is that Mario's anti-air is by far superior. Although Mario doesn't have very good combos on Luigi, his D-throw sets up into U-tilt juggles extremely well, and Luigi's options around U-tilt are pretty bad, since all his aerial attacks basically just lose to U-tilt. On the flip side, Luigi doesn't have nearly as consistent anti-air options, so he doesn't keep Mario in the air quite as easily.
Right, but you are underestimating just how weak Mario is, and how hard it is for Mario to KO if Luigi doesn't run into your fsmashes.

Try juggling a level 9 Luigi into a finisher. Observe how far that knocks him offstage. Consider how you are going to KO him at reasonable percents.

It looks something like the first stock of this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5HS2TuIpsk#t=4m24s

(Of course I made tons of mistakes, including lots of missed cc/oos punishes, missed ledgedashes, and capes, but hopefully it shows that I'm not clueless about the matchup. I'm also not trying to say that the match is representative of the matchup as a whole.)

Mario's better air game/slightly better combo game is what keeps the matchup close, as Luigi has better range, ground speed, and finishers.

Also, even though Luigi isn't quite as good at Mario at keeping Mario in the air, he's still fine at it. A sh backwards uair will often combo into a bair, and then Mario still has to get down without Luigi WDing under him with utilt/usmash or wding over and hitting him from the side with an upwards angled ftilt/bair.
 

A2ZOMG

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Mario can KO Luigi reasonably with U-smash (a tad later than Luigi's U-smash KO on Mario), which like U-tilt can be used effectively in anti-airs. CC -> U-smash is also situationally effective. More importantly, Luigi has a lot of trouble recovering against Mario without a misfire.

It was mentioned earlier that fireballs are also useful in this matchup, due to their ability to control the ground as well. Something worth stating merely because the majority of Mario videos usually feature very aggressive players.
 

n0ne

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hmmmmm................................................................................
(more dots)..................................

idk, ive always known mario is at disadvantage against luigi... and mario really has to OUTSMART luigi to get the kills.

Luigis plain mega priority **** him... unless there is like perfect spacing.

Marios Utilt may work against luigi, but it is also a trade.. most of the time .. and mario has more to lose than luigi from it.

Luigi has that GREAT wavedash... but Mario DOES have onstage shorthop cape mindgames... and CCing helps tons for Mario.
Marios grab game IS much better than luigis, but he has to mindgame or space afterwards to keep hitting bcuz nair or dair just comes out too fast.

Mario DOES edgeguard luigi much much better as long as luigi is not too far from the ledge. because misfire is dangerous, and good luigis dont usually recover low so its unpredictable and hard to counter. For Mario to recover safely.. he has to be a bit unpredictable with his up-b/down-b/cape combinations or exclusions for him to get back to ledge. the trick is to avoid luigi while recovering and using ub-b once it is safe

As much as i love Mario and i actually do hate luigi because of the way people play him around here, i actually give the MU 65-35 luigis favor (maybe that is a bit TOO extreme but meh) because in the end, if you are mario and you REALLY want to win against luigi... you have to space very well and outsmart him. I feel for u a2zomg but i hate it also.. but its just rapeville for luigi against us Marios.
in the end luigi kills mario very easy if there is no knowledge from the mario playr about the MU
 

A2ZOMG

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I dunno n0ne. Luigi is retardedly easy to beat with U-tilt once he's in the air. You just D-throw him, U-tilt, and wait until he gets tired of failing to N-air out of it and proceed to react and **** anything else he tries. It's simple, effective, and rewarding. Your U-tilt just flat out beats his N-air and D-air unless you do it REALLY late (I am quite certain that U-tilt is either slightly disjointed or the fist is invincible or both). U-tilt hitbox duration is like 7 frames or so, which is plenty of time to let him fall onto your fist.

I think Luigi is much easier than most people imply. I'm naturally patient and comfortable with spacing (which is the complete opposite of practically every Mario I see on youtube, yours included). While I do think my spacing is above average, I just think it's merely because I choose to do it in my playstyle, and that what I do is not hard to replicate.

KOing Luigi is a bit difficult, but fortunately he's easy to edgeguard, so he's no Peach. And unlike Peach he really doesn't have the mobility OR the priority to challenge your U-tilt.
 

Winston

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I dunno n0ne. Luigi is retardedly easy to beat with U-tilt once he's in the air. You just D-throw him, U-tilt, and wait until he gets tired of failing to N-air out of it and proceed to react and **** anything else he tries. It's simple, effective, and rewarding. Your U-tilt just flat out beats his N-air and D-air unless you do it REALLY late (I am quite certain that U-tilt is either slightly disjointed or the fist is invincible or both). U-tilt hitbox duration is like 7 frames or so, which is plenty of time to let him fall onto your fist.
Can you combo Luigi? Yes, at some percents. Is it good enough to swing the matchup in Mario's favor, especially considering Mario almost never gets grabs on Luigi? No.

At really low percents, he'll nair you after the utilt lag. At higher percents, he'll take at MOST one aerial after the utilt before DIing to a platform and getting out, or at least forcing you to outplay him to continue the combo. The percent range where you get multiple hits isn't that large, and even when you do get multiple hits it's not a huge amount of damage, and won't set up for a KO.

I think Luigi is much easier than most people imply.
What's this supposed to mean? Pakman/I have said slight Luigi favored, not like Luigi ***** Mario or anything. Are you arguing that Mario goes even/has the advantage?

I'm naturally patient and comfortable with spacing (which is the complete opposite of practically every Mario I see on youtube, yours included). While I do think my spacing is above average, I just think it's merely because I choose to do it in my playstyle, and that what I do is not hard to replicate.
Post some videos of yourself playing the matchup then, if you're implying that other Mario players are just doing it wrong.

KOing Luigi is a bit difficult, but fortunately he's easy to edgeguard, so he's no Peach. And unlike Peach he really doesn't have the mobility OR the priority to challenge your U-tilt.
About usmash KOing Luigi, you can't land a Usmash unless the Luigi makes big mistakes.

About Luigi being easy to edgeguard, I think that's patently false if the Luigi has good DI, since he gets to recover from high because Mario can't knock him offstage with a favorable trajectory. He'll rarely have to make himself vulnerable to cape or whatnot. Add that to the chance of misfires, and he is definitely not "easy to edgeguard", though he isn't Peach in difficulty of edgeguarding either.
 

Bamesy

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...making interesting maneuvers in the Okanagan...
um...
I've been using Mario since August, and picked up Luigi again yesterday but used to main him...

Luigi beats Mario, 100% fact as far as I'm concerned. It'll take immeasureably drastic things for me to believe otherwise by now. :/

More importantly, Sheik is gay.
<3 fighting her though. For some reason. :p
 
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