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Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Can you explain wavedashing in place a little more? The application of it in relation to tech chasing. Is it just to keep a tempo on your button pressing so you can react to the tech as fast as possible?
Exactly. A wavestep is also a great way to space against get up attack and gain momentum on the ground.
 

onehunna

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
27
Location
Seattle, Washington
Around 1:56 in this Eddy Mexico versus MacD set, Eddy goes down throw, down air, waveland, up+B ping. Recently I've been practicing more with sweetspotting Luigi's down air meteor spike, mainly off the edge. (Wavedashing backwards and down airing for the edgeguard, hop up from the ledge and down air for the edge guard.) But has anyone else here experimented much with a more Falco-like usage of Luigi's butt spike? Of course, it's so difficult to land consistently. But maybe set-ups such as the down throw and up throw (neutral air too!) at lower percents can open up more opportunities for these types of combos? Just food for thought, maybe.

And can we talk about Eddy's performance at the most recent Super Smash Sunday? Great, patient play overall (against a stacked turnout) with some classic misfire moments. What did you guys see Eddy Mex doing that you liked?

Edit: Here are links to Eddy's singles matches.

vs. HugS (Samus)
vs. Khepri (Captain Falcon)
vs. MacD (Peach)
vs. Westballz (Falco)
vs. Fly Amanita (Ice Climbers)
vs. Westballz (Falco)
vs. S2J (Captain Falcon)
 
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Griffard

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
748
Location
Geneva, IL/New Orleans, LA
^^Really great post onehunna. I want Luigi board discussion to be trending towards this analytical and conversational discussion.
That being said I haven't watched singles matches yet, so I'll hit those now! I noticed Eddy Mexico didn't utilize his down-b the same ways that other Luigi mains do. In teams play I saw him get some serious punishes, I really like his movement and quick f-tilts. Combo game and edgeguards were really clean, and he knew a ton matchups. I'm gonna come back and edit this when I rewatch, but I was definitely poppin' off in my student center on headphones watching him wyl' out on fools.

EDIT: dang so just in his set with MacD I saw a bunch of noteworthy stuff. As in I actually took notes haha
dub EDIT: just wanna say hadn't seen any singles yet when I first posted... after watching the run PHEW I'm impressed! Took more notes than this too.

  • ~~Nair immediately to protect from anti-airs after a whiffed high aerial.

    ~~Side-B on offense! From ledge/other situations where you don’t threaten insta-SD w/ misfire. Play like a level 9

    ~~Waveland with opponent’s tech/wake-up roll after a d-air spike, into SHORYUKEN

    ~~Diagonal Air-dodges to get between opponent on platform and recover to bottom part of stage.

    ~~F-smash with back to ledge is safe, get back ON ledge for free w/ shield push. Up-B sometimes too (more risky)

    ~~Waveland techread w/ the quick f-tilt (WD then keep control stick in held direction and just press a. Tilt for tilted)

    ~~Off d-smash/anything missed tech—> down B to scoop, then second hit chase for a pop or tech chase.

    ~~Jab—>run JC grab

    ~~Spot-dodge to Up-B if on top of you, F-smash either way when you see which side they’re on.

    ~~Many many short hop f-airs

    ~~Luigi wins in clank situations! Down-b/jab clank to f-tilt, but also f-SMASH!
 
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Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Eddie Mexico at that SSS may be the finest Luigi play we've seen to date. We all have so much to take away from it.
 

itsbme

Game on!
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Aug 16, 2008
Messages
251
Location
U.S.A.
I think one thing I noted to was against MacD on Battlefield; he did Tornado right into MacD and then somehow that clinked and he then instantly did UpB which bounced off MacD's shield, and Eddy was able to fall back and grab the ledge. Nutty.

20mexmex.png
 

The Luigi Cyclone

Smash Rookie
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I must say for a Luigi main this was a very nice thread and I will refer to it often. Thanks guys!
 

itsbme

Game on!
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Aug 16, 2008
Messages
251
Location
U.S.A.
Against s2j, eddy liked to use up tilt a lot, plus he opted for wavedash up smash when approaching. Also rolled when getting swarmed with nairs. I liked eddys wavedash from behind s2j through him while doing fsmash. It allowed him to attack while keeping a shield grab from happening.
 

onehunna

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
27
Location
Seattle, Washington
Great observations from everyone so far. I don't mean to derail this discussion, but what are a few solid follow-ups to a forward-tilt poke out of wavedash at lower percents? It's a delicate timing, sometimes I can't act quickly enough off the initial hit due to animation lag. I've experimented with jabs and down smashes, maybe grabs as well? Any help is appreciated.
 
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Griffard

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 13, 2007
Messages
748
Location
Geneva, IL/New Orleans, LA
The low % wd f-tilt is a difficult topic in my opinion. I think jabs --> reverse grab are typically better, f-tilt can be punished by a lot of characters on HIT at low %. Like you said, jabs work really well. Mixing up # of jabs with f-tilt in close quarters can be great. I think d-smash is going to be too slow a lot of the time. I recommend experimenting with spot-dodge to grab, raw grab or wd through or back to wd in --> stuff.

edit: more recently, I've started wd-ing THROUGH my opponent deliberately at low percent and f-tilting their backside so I am moving away as I ftilt. Totally safe on hit of course, but also nearly completely safe on shield too, depending on spacing of course.
 
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Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
You could catch a Falcon jumping out of their shield with that cross up ftilt. Retreating upward ftilts are also great versus Falcon, especially versus opponents who like to try to read your movement. You're too slippery for that though
 

Verda Stelo

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 2, 2014
Messages
112
Location
Atlanta, GA
Thanks for the video Renth. You and BluEG are looking pretty good. The Ganon match up is really fun but it seems much harder for Luigi than it should be because he gets punished so hard with just one attack. The wavedash also becomes a weakness if your movement gets read (which you Florida Ganons are pretty good at). What do you think of the match up?
 

Renth

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 8, 2005
Messages
5,938
Location
Colver, PA
Thanks for the video Renth. You and BluEG are looking pretty good. The Ganon match up is really fun but it seems much harder for Luigi than it should be because he gets punished so hard with just one attack. The wavedash also becomes a weakness if your movement gets read (which you Florida Ganons are pretty good at). What do you think of the match up?
A lot of people feel like Ganondorf confidently wins the match up. My personal opinion after playing Abate, Vudujin and BluEG. I feel the match up is even and if it is in ganondorfs favor it leans only 55-45.
 

Dapplegonger

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Is there any comprehensive list of matchups I can find? This thread is informative and all, but you have to read through every single post to find info. I feel like it would be easier if the matchups were divided into specific sections.
 

kodeyluigi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
132
Sup guys? Can we discuss the Falco matchup? I'm interested in hearing what are some of you guys strats for escaping lazer pressure? Also: you guys should check my Luigi out and tell me what you think. Here's a link to one of my videos:
Check out this video on YouTube:

http://youtu.be/EPT3nJbxzE0
 

BluEG

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
287
A lot of people feel like Ganondorf confidently wins the match up. My personal opinion after playing Abate, Vudujin and BluEG. I feel the match up is even and if it is in ganondorfs favor it leans only 55-45.
I gotta agree with this one. Its only slightly in favor of Ganon. Luigi can abuse his speed to get in on Ganon very easily. Ganon has an edge with the punishes.
 

EddyBearr

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Jun 14, 2013
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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I think Ganon wins almost any matchup if you're able to read your opponent. As long as you don't get read a lot, then I think Luigi wins the matchup slightly (because you're always going to get read some).

I think it's more a problem of Ganondorf mindset being an antithesis to Luigi mindset. It's like Luigi is used to being highly mobile while not worrying about punishes past a single hit nearly as much as other characters, whereas Ganondorf becomes an expert of dealing with being out-maneuvered while single-hit punishes are all that's needed. I feel if Luigi players work out a means to overcome this antithesis (safer means to approach, bait&punish, and scout), the metagame will develop in Luigi's favor.
 
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Scruffy_Scoundrel

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Scruffy_Avenger
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I recently started playing luigi and he's quickly becoming my main, I watched fight pitt v this weekend and a theory that I had myself for a while was more or less confirmed. I think we need to rethink the Luigi vs Fox match up, I think it may actually be in luigi's favor.
 

EddyBearr

Smash Lord
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Minneapolis, Minnesota
I recently started playing luigi and he's quickly becoming my main, I watched fight pitt v this weekend and a theory that I had myself for a while was more or less confirmed. I think we need to rethink the Luigi vs Fox match up, I think it may actually be in luigi's favor.
If you watch the Colbol vs Abate Loser's Finals of Luigi vs Fox, you see very clearly why Fox beats Luigi. Abate should have won, but that's because Colbol started getting really serious tournament jitters. When Colbol was collected, he was really picking on Luigi's shortcomings.

With that said, Luigi is definitely a winner over Foxes that don't know the matchup.
 

Scruffy_Scoundrel

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Scruffy_Avenger
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Abate lost because he pressed up b when side b or down b would have been a better option not because colbol outplayed him, and I think luigi beats fox offstage if luigi plays frame perfect on the ledge there isn't much fox can do but we have to play against fox on the ledge
 

Kidney Thief

Smash Journeyman
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Aug 13, 2014
Messages
299
Location
Gatineau/Ottawa
Hey guys I've been playing D.O.C and regular Mario for a while now, and I've recently picked up Luigi when practicing alone in my room and I'm trying to keep him a secret from some of my friends until he's as good as my two Marios. I love to do some theory crafting very much, and so it got me thinking. So far I've come to the conclusion that I should use Luigi over Mario's if I go to dreamland for example. Doc gets to play on Pokemon Stadium and Regular Mario is pretty versatile in general when it comes to stages imo. I also figured I should use Doc for Fox/Falco and Yoshi. Mario for Marth and since I have much smaller practice with Luigi against other players, I'm not sure where he'd excel over the two Mario's. That's why I'm here in the Luigi boards. Could you guys give me general advice on all Luigi matchups that you know, and bonus points if you can compare matchups between one of both Marios vs Luigi

TLDR : What do you guys think of the Luigi matchups against Sheik, Peach, Falcon, Ice Climbers, Samus, Ganon, the two Marios, The two Links and low tiers in general if you happen to have that info. Bonus points if you can say which of the three Mario bros is better in a specific matchup.
 
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kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
Yo wee gees what's up with this thread? It's sort of whack in the sense that the first post wasn't edited, formatted, or updated to reflect all the MUs.

Can anyone give me quick summary of the current aggregate MUs for luigi in the current meta?
 
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Jelson

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
26
Yo wee gees what's up with this thread? It's sort of whack in the sense that the first post wasn't edited, formatted, or updated to reflect all the MUs.

Can anyone give me quick summary of the current aggregate MUs for luigi in the current meta?
Yeah; lots of framework, but nothing finalized. These Luigis were active years before us. Any MU in particular?
 

kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
Yeah; lots of framework, but nothing finalized. These Luigis were active years before us. Any MU in particular?
I geuss just the extremes; highly favorable and highly unfavorable MUs. Anything close to even - 40 to 60 can usually be subjective or bias.

From what I've seen it seems that Luigi has a lot of difficulty against against Marth, Sheik, Ganon, and Samus. Spacies seem to obviously be an unfavorable MU as well, but I'm unsure to what degree.
 
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Jelson

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2015
Messages
26
I geuss just the extremes; highly favorable and highly unfavorable MUs. Anything close to even - 40 to 60 can usually be subjective or bias.

From what I've seen it seems that Luigi has a lot of difficulty against against Marth, Sheik, Ganon, and Samus. Spacies seem to obviously be an unfavorable MU as well, but I'm unsure to what degree.
Objectively, I'd say spacies, Shiek, Marth, and Captain. As far as those MUs in particular, there's nothing more I can say that hasn't already been detailed much more thoroughly on these boards. It takes some digging and searching, but it's there. There are some things I'd like to emphasize though:

Shiek:
  • Try not to recover too low, or else you're asking to get gimped.
    • She throws her needles at a perfect 45 degree angle, so keep that in mind as you observe her movement as she edgegaurds.
  • For stage selection avoid low ceilings
  • Try not to rage when you get dash attack-cancel grabbed
  • If she ever recovers on stage the first time it's a free Shoryuken, and the rest of the game if she still tries to do it it's a free grab.
Marth:
  • Do your best to stay on the ground
    • Don't be afraid to use platforms to maneuver if you're in a bad spot though, but if your wavedashes aren't perfect you'll just get up tilt tipped. Before I do this I like to throw a fireball; wavedash in place to bait a slash.
    • Cyclone is your friend even more so when you're falling into him in the air. Kick him in the face.
    • Hopefully, you've got a second jump. Good Luigis save this until they absolutely need it. Out of this comes evasion, the ability to air dodge, and therefore mixups.
    • Crouch-cancel
  • You have a projectile; Marth doesn't.
    • Fade away Vududashes (your back turned to the direction you're launching) are great if the Marth is chasing you off a patform
    • Marth is relatively tall, so short hop fast-fall fireballs regardles of when you hit B will always hit and trick him the hop.
  • When you recover, you gotta sweetspot the edge.
    • After sweetspotting; it's time to L-cancel that forward smash/down tilt. Luckily, Luigi's up-B is just straight up, so it's easy to time that four frame window with a little practice. Personally, I like to use Luigi's fist as a visual cue as it sticks out a little bit over the Shoryuken hit-bubble. Essentially I'll hit L the very moment his fist is under what I call the "top border" of the stage. What I mean by this for example would be the grass on Dreamland, the rectangular edges of Battlefield, the top cardboard piece that makes the stage of Yoshi's, etc.
  • Capitalize on grabs. Marth is very conveniently weighted to where he can still escape traditional neutral game shenanigans.
    • Grab combos at 0%:
      • Up throw > Bair > Bair (from here follow up with a down smash and resume shenanigans)
      • Down throw > pivot Dair
      • Up throw > any aerial
      • Down throw > pivot forward smash
    • From any other percent just up throw > reverse forward air when Marth is below 60%, and up throw > down air when he's above 60%.
Ganon: He's a tank character; slow but hits hard. Just space well. When he recovers try to be more above him and then just Dair.

Samus: No data. You're going to have to watch some vods for this one.

Falco:
  • He'll force you to recover low with lasers, and then wait for his chance to down air your upward approach. It's a precarious game of juggling going up and throwing fireballs to ensure your horizontal space in.
    • Remember the sweetspot technique I mentioned earlier.
    • If you absolutely have to recover low cyclone AWAY from the stage, or you're a sitting duck for 72 frames
  • Trigger tricking is handy. Hold in L/R (whichever one you don't use to wavedash) as you plug in your controller and now you can only make digital presses. Practice holding down the tricked trigger but not pressing it until necessary while playing.
  • Light shield makes multishine useless.
    • In neutral this is a good way to convert his shffld aerials to shines into grabs. Falco has four frames of jumpsquat which is literally enough time to get that grab when they shine-cancel.
  • If they don't DI your down smashes; just stand in place and keep doing them. After two or three, resume neutral game shenanigans.
  • When edgegaurding:
    • <45 degrees below ledge line: wait by ledge and short hop Dair
    • If 90 > x > 45 (x being Falco's position in relation to the ledge in degrees), then grab the ledge and back air him
      • It's up to you to discern whether you should fast fall back air or hit away from ledge and back air.
  • Jelson's Super Spacie Swag Combo (mid to high %): with your back towards and a few steps from ledge > grab > up throw > full hop > reverse fast fall fireball > Neutral air into them, and double jump into forward air.
  • Oh, and you can chain grab 0 to 50. Then just up throw again to a Dair.
    • @ Stride Stride please finish your chain grab frame data guide.
Fox: Fox is a faster Falco with a different spike method, and no hitstun laser.
  • when you get shined off stage immediately fast fall to grab ledge. If you miss the fast fall NEVER jump; cyclone instead.
 
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Stride

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
680
Location
North-west England (near Manchester/Liverpool)
I don't have to motivation to finish the chain grab frame data at the moment (and likely won't for a long time, if ever); it's tedious to collect and the vast majority of it is practically useless anyway. If I could make it significant more efficient to collect by automating the process then I'd probably resume doing it, but until that's possible I don't see myself working on it anymore.

I'll write about the chaingrab in practical terms though; it's not really complex in practice. To my understanding:

Up throw chaingrab to 35% into up throw->dash->jump cancel->up smash (no direct combo off the up smash if they DI it behind), or down throw->down smash (down smash doesn't connect if they DI the throw behind), is close to optimal when not taking platforms into account. You could chaingrab for a little longer but then it gets more difficult that I'd like for the reward.

You could also down smash non-behind DI instead of dash->jump cancel->up smashing all DI. However, I don't believe this is practical to do consistently (if at all); because of the small window for covering DI away on the up throw with an up smash, I don't think you have time to confirm the DI before dashing. Therefore, you have to start dashing immediately, and then if they didn't DI away, do a pivot up smash or early up smash.

If you could react to the DI fast enough that you didn't have to preemptively dash, then you could down smash non-behind DI for a guaranteed followup. Since it's a matter of reaction time, some players may be able to do it with practice, but I don't feel like it's possible (at least for me). Reaction time is difficult to take into account objectively, because it varies so much with the individual and the situation, and because the amount of data on the subject is lacking.

Even though you don't get a direct followup from the up smash if they DI it behind, you still get a tech chase. Also, if they don't DI the throw behind, then depending on the timing/positioning of your dash/jump cancel/up smash, the up smash can be reversed; which makes it a 50-50 guess as to which direction to DI the up smash to avoid the followups.

Optimal DI on the throw at 35% is always behind regardless of whether it's up throw or down throw; the opponent could try mixing up DI on the throw to throw off the Luigi, but the up throw chaingrab is guaranteed regardless of DI, and DI behind has a significantly smaller window to catch as well as not being subject to the DI mixup on the up smash. Because of that, and because Luigi doesn't have any useful DI traps off grab at this damage, I believe that up throw to up smash is the optimal way to end the chaingrab. While down throw down smash does work, any opponent who knows the matchup will just DI the throw behind; at least with up throw up smash you get the up smash before their DI behind gets them out, and it covers all DIs on the throw. In a throw out of neutral (where the opponent might miss the DI), or when platforms are in play, then down throw down smash could be better.

The chaingrab is not guaranteed 0 to death, but it's good and guaranteed at least 0 to 45 or so, with more generally guaranteed/favourable damage into edgeguard/kill setups afterwards. The only hard part of the regrabbing itself is reacting quickly enough to cover both DI in front and no DI/DI behind at 0%. No Luigis I've seen go for the chaingrab properly for some reason (even on FD) and usually go straight for up smash, so either they know something that I don't or they just don't know about/want to use it.

I geuss just the extremes; highly favorable and highly unfavorable MUs. Anything close to even - 40 to 60 can usually be subjective or bias.

From what I've seen it seems that Luigi has a lot of difficulty against against Marth, Sheik, Ganon, and Samus. Spacies seem to obviously be an unfavorable MU as well, but I'm unsure to what degree.
Ganon and Samus can be hard until you learn them, at which point I feel that Luigi wins. There was a thread on here where that was discussed briefly: http://smashboards.com/threads/luigis-worst-matchups.385815/

Spacies and Sheik are borderline unwinnable (possibly actually unwinnable), though spacies are far easier than Sheik below high levels of play or when the opponent doesn't know the matchup.
 
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kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
Objectively, I'd say spacies, Shiek, Marth, and Captain. As far as those MUs in particular, there's nothing more I can say that hasn't already been detailed much more thoroughly on these boards. It takes some digging and searching, but it's there. There are some things I'd like to emphasize though:

Shiek:
  • Try not to recover too low, or else you're asking to get gimped.
    • She throws her needles at a perfect 45 degree angle, so keep that in mind as you observe her movement as she edgegaurds.
  • For stage selection avoid low ceilings
  • Try not to rage when you get dash attack-cancel grabbed
  • If she ever recovers on stage the first time it's a free Shoryuken, and the rest of the game if she still tries to do it it's a free grab.
Marth:
  • Do your best to stay on the ground
    • Don't be afraid to use platforms to maneuver if you're in a bad spot though, but if your wavedashes aren't perfect you'll just get up tilt tipped. Before I do this I like to throw a fireball; wavedash in place to bait a slash.
    • Cyclone is your friend even more so when you're falling into him in the air. Kick him in the face.
    • Hopefully, you've got a second jump. Good Luigis save this until they absolutely need it. Out of this comes evasion, the ability to air dodge, and therefore mixups.
    • Crouch-cancel
  • You have a projectile; Marth doesn't.
    • Fade away Vududashes (your back turned to the direction you're launching) are great if the Marth is chasing you off a patform
    • Marth is relatively tall, so short hop fast-fall fireballs regardles of when you hit B will always hit and trick him the hop.
  • When you recover, you gotta sweetspot the edge.
    • After sweetspotting; it's time to L-cancel that forward smash/down tilt. Luckily, Luigi's up-B is just straight up, so it's easy to time that four frame window with a little practice. Personally, I like to use Luigi's fist as a visual cue as it sticks out a little bit over the Shoryuken hit-bubble. Essentially I'll hit L the very moment his fist is under what I call the "top border" of the stage. What I mean by this for example would be the grass on Dreamland, the rectangular edges of Battlefield, the top cardboard piece that makes the stage of Yoshi's, etc.
  • Capitalize on grabs. Marth is very conveniently weighted to where he can still escape traditional neutral game shenanigans.
    • Grab combos at 0%:
      • Up throw > Bair > Bair (from here follow up with a down smash and resume shenanigans)
      • Down throw > pivot Dair
      • Up throw > any aerial
      • Down throw > pivot forward smash
    • From any other percent just up throw > reverse forward air when Marth is below 60%, and up throw > down air when he's above 60%.
Ganon: He's a tank character; slow but hits hard. Just space well. When he recovers try to be more above him and then just Dair.

Samus: No data. You're going to have to watch some vods for this one.

Falco:
  • He'll force you to recover low with lasers, and then wait for his chance to down air your upward approach. It's a precarious game of juggling going up and throwing fireballs to ensure your horizontal space in.
    • Remember the sweetspot technique I mentioned earlier.
    • If you absolutely have to recover low cyclone AWAY from the stage, or you're a sitting duck for 72 frames
  • Trigger tricking is handy. Hold in L/R (whichever one you don't use to wavedash) as you plug in your controller and now you can only make digital presses. Practice holding down the tricked trigger but not pressing it until necessary while playing.
  • Light shield makes multishine useless.
    • In neutral this is a good way to convert his shffld aerials to shines into grabs. Falco has four frames of jumpsquat which is literally enough time to get that grab when they shine-cancel.
  • If they don't DI your down smashes; just stand in place and keep doing them. After two or three, resume neutral game shenanigans.
  • When edgegaurding:
    • <45 degrees below ledge line: wait by ledge and short hop Dair
    • If 90 > x > 45 (x being Falco's position in relation to the ledge in degrees), then grab the ledge and back air him
      • It's up to you to discern whether you should fast fall back air or hit away from ledge and back air.
  • Jelson's Super Spacie Swag Combo (mid to high %): with your back towards and a few steps from ledge > grab > up throw > full hop > reverse fast fall fireball > Neutral air into them, and double jump into forward air.
  • Oh, and you can chain grab 0 to death.
    • @ Stride Stride please finish your chain grab frame data guide.
Fox: Fox is a faster Falco with a different spike method, and no hitstun laser.
  • when you get shined off stage immediately fast fall to grab ledge. If you miss the fast fall NEVER jump; cyclone instead.
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING BOOOOOT!

Top tier dissertation level response. Thanks!
 

ForTheLulz

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Maryland
About Fox
1. What percents does uthrow -> uptilt -> regrab work on spacies?

2. What are the ways to mix up your recovery to avoid shinespikes?

About Marth
1. Is there a way I could weave in through Marth's nair->dtilt wall?
 

Yann J.Ridin

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 8, 2013
Messages
100
Location
Switzerland, La Suisse, Pays de Neuchâtel
Hello,

1. I only know for PAL. It should be relatively the same, plus I give you approximative data. I indicated the % before the uptilt, not before the grab (grab does 7%).
So you can do this really early if they dont DI "in" like ~30%. The easiest % to regrab should be like ~50% and it becomes impossible after ~65%.
At high percentage try to uptilt fox the lowest/latest possible for optimization. The inverse at low % ofc.

2. You have plenty of thing, the most important is keeping your DJ for the end of your recovery so you will have more options:
You can DJ Fair/upair. Fireball when falling or after DJ. Sweespot DJ or UpB ofc. You can try early UpB to suprisingly hit him whith the coin and he will **** his input. You can airdoge through fox on stage or on ledge. Maybe tricky DJ cancel by a rising tornado to hit him with the tornado...(I nerver try this but yeah still..).

3. I'm not really comfortable with this matchup... Did you try to WD in shield? The aim is that the velocity of your WD cancels the "push back" when marth hits your shield and so, you can probably shield grab him (thats more an advice for the dtilt). For the aerials (that concern more the Fair than the Nair) you can WD shield and push you shield front-upward so marth will hit your shield earlier and you can act OOS quicker.

Just about the Nair: you can try to hit the head of marth with a Fair. You need a really good spacing and it easier if the marth is approching with the SH Nair than just a straight standing SH nair. You can try to go under marth with WD upsmash but if he does anything else than SH, you are quite ****r.

More general advice: try to understand the "pressure loop" of your oppenent. begginer player often do a SHFFL and if they miss, they shield so you can grab. Average player whith better execution will often do a Jab or tilt after landing a aerial to keep the pressure and personnaly, i find really hard to catch them after their landing. So try to go one step forward and don't try to punish their landing like beginner and wait for their pressure attack (jab/tilt) to punish them. The most important thing is to be near with dashdance when they try to pressure you and observe what they do after they miss. If they retreat with dash back: go for a long WD Dsmash or whatever. If they continue with the pressure (often whith a SHFFL) try dash upsmash below him.


I'm really a player "in construction" and certainly i will change my mind about what i wrote here in 6 month. i hope my spontaneous answer with poor english will help you a bit. GL
 

juiey2

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
63
Location
Hell
I'm sorry. I've read the whole thread and I can't figure out how to get past Ganon's barrage of spaced SHFFL'd fairs to ftilt/jab and other shenanigans. It's so f****** annoying to:

- Get chased with uairs after you get hit and sent airborne
- Get shieldgrabbed/Uair oos almost instantly after every god damned spaced aerial (luigi's hurtboxes just get into ganon after you throw the attacks, which makes it almost impossible to space)
- Get faired when I'm wavedashing in or approaching in any way I possibly can (that crap is just so wide and beefy. It's like it's difficult NOT to hit).

Considering these and reading the posts within this thread, I realized I shouldn't approach and wait for a wiff... But guess what, that didn't work aswell.

Fireball camping is just not as effective when you're Luigi... Best case scenario Ganon gets hit by 2 of them and gets through... Luigi's traction is very hard to deal with, so he has very little OOS options...

P.S: Beginner player. Have mained luigi in SSB, SSBB, and now this is my first 2 months at melee.

I'm honestly thinking about switching characters to Mario or Dr. Mario if I'm before this matchup once again. The thing is: IT'S SO FRUSTRATING TO DO THAT. HELP ME, PLEASE!!
 

MurphyPrime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
238
You have only been playing for two months, stuff like this works when you are inexperienced. Luigi is very helpless against Ganon if you can't wavedash consistently, so work on that if you can't. Otherwise you'll have to rely on rolling behind him when he swings, then trying to grab or some attack. Don't fire ball camp. It's just an awful plan cause Ganon can jump over it and fair you. For the points you said:

-Luigi is bad in the air, so it's not too surprising this happens. You got to try your best to DI away from him but he still might get you anyway.
-You should be able to space dairs against him if you hit lower on shield. Try testing how far you can be on a shielding opponent (just plug a controller in and hold the shield) before it doesn't hit them.
-You get fair'ed because he:
A: Knew you were going to approach
B: You miss-timed the approach and didn't get to him when he was exposed.
I'm going to assume it's some mix of the two, but probably more B. Wavedash in and roll behind him/spot dodge. You should be able to punish properly since he will be in lag. Also down special towards him when he jumps, then move away if it misses him.

Nair out of shield should be good, so is jump then immediate down special. Super stylish is up special out of shield, but it's not easy with Luigi's lack of traction.

Saying all of this, don't get discouraged. I had a tough time against my brother's Ganon for a while. Just keep trying to fix mistakes you make. Watching Luigi vs. Ganon matches may help as well ( think this might be a good one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODL3MJllhu4). It's not worth it to switch characters just yet. Hope you figure it out.
 
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kingPiano

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
574
Yea I second that when you can WD and Perfect WD on command whenever you want, Luigi pretty much becomes completely unpredictable and scary against any character he can combo.

His WDs in and out and through are unreactable and you can choose the lengths and when to finally approach or fake an approach. You have to mix up timing, distance, and the amount of WDs to approach/fake successfully. Any aerial or fast ground move out of his WD is pretty much unreactable and you can easily rush in after a whiff to punish. All of this can also be done right OoS that's Luigi's BIGGEST strength, he moves the fastest OoS in the game aside from ICs, plus he can slide while shielding then punish OoS if he gets hit while still advancing.

Hell even his Down-B can beat out most of Ganon's stuff and definitely as a punish, just go in then come back or go in and through. Ganon is too slow to actually punish unless they read it and CC > into something.
 
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