Guide The Official Luigi Matchup Database! - Currently discussing: Various

[condemned_soul]

Hey can we do the spacies MU...... i need to learn the MU

 

[Vudujin]

At early percents against Fox just CC D-smash. I personally like light shielding until his aggression pushes me onto the ledge and then I WD on w/ invincibility and do something. Most of Fox's approaches are going to be shffl nairs or dairs with shines afterwards, so you can dair him if you can see when they'll start their short hop. At mid percents I like to counter approach with random shffl nairs. Just wavedash in their vicinity and stick it out there. If you start a combo and are able to get a re-grab then take it. I like using f-throw cause the speed of it usually causes the fox to miss the tech, and they generally always roll away, so you want to keep pushing them off the stage with WD f-tilt and go for a chop-zone. DI-ing up to tech a platform is also out of the equation, so you can use this strategy on any neutral. The emphasis in this strat is to keep Fox as level with the stage as possible to limit his recovery. With a Luigi on the ledge and fox level with the stage and just an up-b or illusion left, he's pretty much screwed. Make sure you control center stage. A Fox with good center stage control against a Luigi is a shine-spiked Luigi. Use the ledge to your advantage but don't play on it. Luigi is one of the best characters from the ledge.

More on Falco later......

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Very nice thanks for the help.

From the same video, don't forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNWF5hFXsng&t=10m03s Vudu didn't even use his upB. so cool

 

[Blea Gelo]

wow, about he last thing u guys were talking about, ys isn't that bad for luigi vs falcon. luigi doesnt have any adventage vs falcon lvl, he lost in every lvl stick that in ur mind. YS isnt that bad just cause u die quick, u can also kill him quick, and that's the idea, learn how to deffend, that's y u have low platforms, closes edges, and a stage meisured with luigi's WD. he can be WAY faster than u in such a small stage, syou'll reach him quicker in the offensive, and u can just edgehog in the deffensive, so stop crying bout ys, it isn't that bad.

 

[Vudujin]

Yoshi's is one of Luigi's best stages. . . . . jesus he's fast there.

I'm trying to think of some bread and butter guarantees that Luigi can have, and I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that it's not within his physical abilities alone but rather his interaction with the stage he's on.

Yoshi's is all about platform aggression, quick kills off the side, and elevator nair kills on floaties.
BF is a great balanced stage for testing styles on your opponent.
FD is your playground, have fun if someone didn't already ban it.
Dreamland is great for taking the evasive side as well as chopzone combos because of the spread out nature of the platforms
FoD is personally one of my least favorite Luigi stages, but he's certainly not bad there.
Stadium's low ceiling is good for nair kills, especially with the mountain part.

I'm sure some of this stuff seems obvious and whatnot, but I just need a place to write this and jam it into my skull

Feel free to expand on it. I wanna hear ideas flowing in this thread. We Luigis gotta get more creative.

 

[Wenbobular]

FD is my favorite stage vs Luigi
After Battlefield, my favorite stage period

 

[Winston]

I think Luigis need to be less "creative" and more methodical

edit: I don't want to sound like I think I'm some Luigi master or something; I recognize that a lot of you guys (Vudujin, Vist, Blea, Eddy, I haven't seen Abate play but let's list him here too) are better Luigi players than I was. You guys are faster and understand approaching/pressuring better than I ever did. I just feel like there's been little effort to get Luigi's punish game down to a science, to rethink how Luigi's neutral game can be played against characters that prey upon his weaknesses, to use misdirection and subtlety when appropriate rather than throwing out a move and hoping your opponent's unfamiliarity with the character will bail you out. The less you rely on the gimmicky aspects of the character, the more his metagame can develop.

If you want me to talk specifics rather than make sweeping pejorative generalizations like some bad UmbreonMow knockoff, I can, but it's all stuff I've posted here before. I'll type it out if someone wants to talk about it, though.

Oh and there needs to be more terrorizing everyone with perfect ledgedashes. I see them not infrequently now, but I feel like it's one of his strongest features as a character and should be abused more than it is.

 

[Vudujin]

Yeah that's what I was getting at. Creative was just a bad word to end it on. Creating a method is where it needs to be, and I think there's a different one for each stage that you play on. He can pretty much combo every character, so you really just need to get your combo started and apply the finishing method that would work on the stage being used.


FD is a lot of people's favorite stage. I think people feel comfortable on it from practicing on it so much, but Luigi ***** on that stage.

 

[Wenbobular]

I actually hate FD
I just think it's a good stage for Falcon

Battlefield 24/7

 

[Winston]

I wasn't talking about stages so much as stuff in general. But while we're on the subject again, I don't think FD is a great Luigi stage vs. Marth, Falcon, and Falco. It's good vs other characters, though.

I used to love DL out of personal preference, but I think it's a really crappy stage for Luigi vs. Falcon/Fox if they want to platform camp.

I can't figure out FoD for the life of me.

I kind of want to play Luigi again for fun but my tech skill is so bad with him... I hate being slow and missing wavedashes/ledgedashes.

 

[Vudujin]

If you want me to talk specifics rather than make sweeping pejorative generalizations like some bad UmbreonMow knockoff, I can, but it's all stuff I've posted here before. I'll type it out if someone wants to talk about it, though.

That's hilarious. I TOTALLY agree with the ledgedashing. That's something that every Luigi main should master. I feel the same way about the gimmicky aspects taking lead over actual technical playing prowess. As far as specifics go for me I want to construct a list of what stages you should be using on certain characters, what kind of optimal combos you need to win, and how to properly recover against them. I'm going to try and make this really visual, and use pics of the stages with motion paths of the character. . . . sorta like an animatic. I want to get all of the Luigi's on the same page so we have something foundational to work with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MqLslUrlE 16:47

This was from friendlies at HOPE 4. It's the L is for Luigi! combo!!!!

 

[pingding]

man those guys are good weegee players

 

[Vist]

i was gonna add something to this thread but i got lazy... figured i might as well post about my laziness


also i wanna do double luigi sometime ffffuuuuuuuuuu

me and eddy were gonna do it @ genesis 2 but i couldnt go

 

[Abate]

i was gonna add something to this thread but i got lazy... figured i might as well post about my laziness


also i wanna do double luigi sometime ffffuuuuuuuuuu

me and eddy were gonna do it @ genesis 2 but i couldnt go

It's definitely the strangest team I've ever played on. We cover the same ground and have to constantly avoid hitting each other (which usually isn't successful on my end)

BINGO! OH HOHOHO

 

[Winston]

So a short version of what I want to talk about

- React with dsmash/utilt/jab during techchasing instead of assuming they will miss the tech or tech in place. If they techroll through you instead, you can cover that with a dash grab or walk -> dsmash.
- If you predict they will tech roll away from you, use WD turnaround dsmash so you cover the tech in place/missed tech as well
- sh uair instead of nair during combos, unless there's a platform above you
- DON'T PUMMEL after you grab
- Experiment with different aerial timings during sh rather than just doing instant aerials. I think autocanceled bair/fair are worth exploring.

 

[luigi6572]

can someone do this in comparison to luigi vs link please

 

[odinNJ]

^^ I was
Just about to ask about that matchup

 

[Pakman]

Link actually had a pretty decent match against Luigi and other floaties. His projectiles and priority in the air make he really dangerous if he catches you in the air. You can't compete with his up air if you are above him. He is just a ball of priority which is rather difficult for the green plumber. Definitely not one of his worst matches but certainly not his best either.

Luigi does have some decent tools. You can tornado and ftilt through boomerangs. You have WAY more grounded mobility than Link. He has a hard time keeping Luigi off stage if you recover high. He can get a free up air, but he doesn't have the danger of a strong horizontal fair like falcon and sheik have. If you are recovering low, ALWAYS sweet spot your up+b, and be very careful how you get back on stage from the ledge. If you eat a late UP+B from link at the ledge, you are basically dead at med-high percents.

Offensively, link is pretty easy to hit quick aerial combos and I think you can do some grab->aerial stuff from downair. Link isn't that hard to combo or anything like that. The hard part offensively is getting that first hit or grab. The Link matchup is momentum based. When you are in his face he can't do a lot. Good tech chases and combo follow ups are better than a hit and run technique. From a neutral position Link has the advantage so try and stay offensive when you can. Link isn't terribly easy to edge guard but it usually doesn't hurt you too much to try. If you do hit him with falling off a ledge aerial he will usually die.

Defensively the best suggestion is to stay grounded. He can't do a lot from a grab so don't be afraid to spam your shield.

 

[Maximillion]

How about Luigi vs Jiggs? Usually I WD UpSmash for an approach and then follow up from there, but I'd like to know more ways to approach.

 

[Pakman]

WD Up smash is really the only decent option.

 

[Vudujin]

WD (Up smash, jab to wait, and u-tilt) are good approaches against poof.

 

[Cinbad]

How does weeg do against pika?
I find him hard to fight in the air cause the pika uair can smack you all over the place

 

[Pakman]

Most of Luigi's foes you can't fight in the air. The air is for continuing/finishing combos. I have limited success against pika so I might not be the best source of advice.

 

[Cinbad]

WD Down smashes tend to work pretty well, and pikachu can be chain grabbed with the down throw to about 40%. i can't really confirm this as fact though, cause i've only played against one pikachu main consistently

 

[odinNJ]

the dthrow can be DIed and the down smashing can be obliterated by pickachu flying nairs/dairs. i would think that the ftilt would work its magic well here, as well as sh dair to stop random aerials.

also since pickachus projectile is ground hugging, he can really mess with you.

 

[Rainbow]

On the ground, the down smash is really good but Pikachu can punish it easily if you just do it into a shield, OOS uairs/usmash destroy you, since once Pikachu gets under you it is hard to not just get thundered, juggled, or otherwise have your mouth opened. In the air, your nair is king.

I think the matchup is generally weird as both characters want to fight in the air, but both realize the other character does really well in the air as well, so mostly the ground game is just trying to set up into an nonpunishable aerial combo.

In summary weegee stuff that gets me mad as a Pikachu player:

nair
dair
dsmash
lightspeed WD nonsense
I can't dthrow to usmash/utilt

Stuff that makes me happy:

Luigi is light as hell
his recovery is super gimpable
Once I get under you/once your rhythm is messed up, I can destroy you with the uair, uair, thunder combo or whatever

 

[BluEG]

Can we talk falco?

I'm finding myself overwhelmed trying to deal with his lasers and shield pressure. Lasers shut down wavedash and tornado, so I find myself floundering to find an opening while he gets time to start up the pressure =/

 

[Vudujin]

-Learn to powershield
-Go to the ledge a lot (watch out for dairs)
-When he comes in close, f-smash and fade away fair work wonders.
-Play around on platforms to avoid getting shot.
-If he gets in close and starts pillaring your shield just roll away to square 1. Shield grabs will almost never work because of hitstun unless you see a screw up.

Ideally you want to just keep moving around him with careful spacing, and you'll get your opening. Try to stay on a different lateral plane than him.

 

[Wenbobular]

You don't really need to powershield, just be good at moving immediately after shielding / taking a laser (it has very little stun) so he can't just go like ... double approaching laser -> shield pressure all day

Dunno about this going on platforms business, seems like you're just setting yourself up for getting Bair walled <_< ... and once you're on the platform, you have to worry about getting down ... *shrug*

 

[Vudujin]

I'm just stressing the idea of mobility. Falco wins by locking him in place. I've never had too many issues with getting stuck on platforms in that MU, but I see how that could play out.

 

[Wenbobular]

I mean, Luigi is most mobile on the ground ... I think with smart positioning Falco can make it pretty hard for you to actually get back to ground level
*Haven't played too much of this matchup recently so this is mostly speculation

I think you should be fighting on Falco's level by trying to wavedash in between lasers ... if you're fast enough you can usually catch noobie Falcos in the middle of starting another laser and **** them

If they're smart they'll be Dairing in place to catch those, but then you can trick them by wavedashing shorter ... at this point you can begin to play actual Smash Bros instead of just getting lasered / pressured a bunch

Also the best response to Falco's shield pressure IMO is wavedashing back onto the ledge -> invincible ledgedash **** them
If they have to start respecting your ledgedash skillz then you can start mixing in regular getups and get out of pressure fairly easily

 

[BluEG]

-Learn to powershield
-Go to the ledge a lot (watch out for dairs)
-When he comes in close, f-smash and fade away fair work wonders.
-Play around on platforms to avoid getting shot.
-If he gets in close and starts pillaring your shield just roll away to square 1. Shield grabs will almost never work because of hitstun unless you see a screw up.

Ideally you want to just keep moving around him with careful spacing, and you'll get your opening. Try to stay on a different lateral plane than him.

That's some great advice!
So basically always be on the run but just bareeeely, so you can get in for openings?

 

[Wenbobular]

That sounds like every matchup ever ... <.<

 

[Vudujin]

Exactly. He pretty much plays the same against everyone.

 

[BluEG]

Yeah >.> I'm realizing that I approach a little too often. Doesnt work against someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Blea Gelo]

blue, you should also try lightshielding. that sends luigi backwards everytime falco hits his shield. that wont let him pillar u, or jcgrab you after a shine. and often will let you in a distance wich you would be able to fair/dair him and not letting him do anything.

 

[BluEG]

Would Up-B OOS be a bad option against a pillaring Falco? I pulled it off a few times in some friendlies but I'm not sure the falco I was playing was doing all he could to prevent it.


Going through all the old Luigi threads from searching-just burned a few hours reading them and saw a lot of good stuff, but some questions.

Couldn't find much info on the Marth matchup. I was under the impression that Marth was the hardest matchup for Luigi after Sheik but apparently the consensus is that falcon/falco are fighting for that position. I feel like Marth's Fair and tilts generally just stop Luigi in his tracks and I don't really know how to get around that beyond simply baiting.

The thread about advancing his metagame quickly turned into "luigi is bad, stop trying" which makes me sad but I feel like there are a lot of points to hit on beyond just playing defensive/offensive.

I think the way to go is a reaction based playstyle

A lot of Luigi's were saying that falcon is an extremely hard matchup, yet I find him to be rather easy if you play a reactive style. I try to force him to tech as much as possible, Then just wait and see which way he rolls or if he techs in place, I feel like Luigi is quick enough to follow almost anything as long as you don't commit a wavedash and let him roll the opposite direction. I stay as close to him as possible and pressure. Although I haven't played very high level falcons yet, thats just my opinion on the matchup so far.

What I'm wondering is why Luigi's haven't dabbled in wavedashing in place as much as I feel like they should. I was watching Colbol play at the last tournament I went to and he just dashed towards a grounded opponent, wave-dashed in place right in front of them, baited an attack, then just walked and u-smash for the kill. Seeing him got me thinking and this technique I think is BY FAR the thing that Luigi is lacking in his metagame atm. You can wave dash in place while wave dashing. It completely stops your momentum. As far as confusing your opponent this is huge-I feel like people get used to Luigis speed as hes wding and it can get predictable-But why not just stop your momentum right when your opponent thinks your flying right into their face? This wave dashing in place helps a reactive playstyle as well.

For example-you Dsmash a falcon and they DI away. Typically I will WD twice towards them if I expect them to roll away or tech in place. More often than not, they anticipate the follow up and roll the direction I just came from, making me miss my read. If you WD then WD in place, your opponent sees the first WD and may roll TOWARDS you and you can do w/e the **** you want in that situation. If they roll away you are still within WD distance, so just react to what they do. If they shield, grab em or do w/e else you can.

I don't think I'm the most credible player since I'm obviously no where near the level of most, but just some ideas I'm having. Still working on the basics so I can't really apply a lot of my ideas, but I feel like breaking momentum with a WD in place is a great mixup that most players don't expect.

 

[Winston]

up B oos is a fine option if they do an early aerial on your shield. It hits on frame 5, faster than any of your other oos attacks, but will only sweetspot if they are pretty much on the ground, so its not good vs late aerial pressure. Also I generally wouldn't go for it unless it would kill them, since it doesn't seem worth the risk of missing otherwise.

I think Luigi's hardest matchups are definitely Sheik/Falco/Fox. (I don't have enough Ganon experience to comment on that one; I've seen Blea Gelo do really well in it so I guess its not that bad.) Marth beats Luigi, but unless they are experienced vs. Luigi (i.e. nobody) or very good at applying theory to abuse the matchup (very rare), it honestly feels like an even matchup. His fair is not a great tool for keeping you out when you are on the ground because it will always have openings, regardless of whether he does them early or late, and if he's doing a ton of fairs to wall you can figure out his pattern and choose a good spot to wavedash in and attack. You just need precise timing. Ftilt is the easiest thing to hit him with when he's fairing, since you can upward angle it to hit him in the air, and often times it'll get "under" his fair if he's trying to do them late.

Long story short, in neutral, if he's jumping a lot you can time ftilt or wd in and sh aerial in the gaps, and if he's dash dancing a lot you just play as you normally would vs. a dash dancing character. I.e. don't attack right into his dashdance grab range, try to gain stage position whenever you can, try to avoid getting hit by his dash attacks and stuff, and mix it up.

For punishes, they are pretty intuitive really. Uair is very good at comboing him at low-mid percents so experiment with that. If you ever land a wd ftilt once he's at mid percent, try to always follow up with more wavedash attacks and push himt o the edge of the stage. When you get a grab, dthrow is pretty much always the best option. (there are situations at mid-high percent when fthrow ftilt is better imo but those are
very stage position dependent so if you want to look into that I suggest you experiment a lot with it before trying to use it.)

I think marths who mix up dash dancing and CCing/shielding your approaches are the hardest, in that case you can try overshooting a jab approach so even if they block it you go behind them, or if they are doing it a lot just go for the read and wavedash in with grab. It's less stupid than it sounds.


I agree with you that Falcon is also very manageable. If you play it right, I think it's actually Luigi favored in practice (since Falcons never DI any of your combos correctly). Don't charge straight in with wavedashes too much and its hard for him to hit you. When you do want to commit to an approach utilt/usmash/upward ftilt are much better than dsmash/jab imo if they are short hopping a lot, though you should still be wary of full hops (which are surprisingly annoying for Luigi to deal with).

I also like that you focus on reacting to cover multiple options instead of going for reads all the time. However, I'm very sure that you can't fully cover EVERY option on reaction with wavedashing; at least, I've never met anyone who can do it. The issue isn't the speed, I think it's that wavedashing is just too complex an action to do quickly enough on reaction (unlike just pressing the control stick to dash with Falcon/Fox).

My standard techchase technique for fastfallers is something like this:

Option 1: stand next to where they will land, spaced so Dsmash will hit max range, and react to a missed tech or tech in place with Dsmash. If they techroll behind me you can simply cover that by running and grabbing. This covers everything but techroll away.

Option 2: wavedash past the spot where they will land and time a turn around dsmash. If you time it correctly (its not too difficult) then the front part of the dsmash will cover their tech in place/missed tech as you are moving past where they land, and the back part of the dsmash will cover their techroll away (since you are still moving as you do the dsmash). I dunno if that explanation makes sense, but its the best way I've found to cover techroll away while still being able to get the in place stuff. This covers everything except for techroll back.

Obviously mixing it up with other options will produce better results but that's my bread and butter.

Finally, I think you are entirely right about wavedashing in place being completely underused by Luigi players. Honestly my view on that is just that Luigi players don't have good enough tech skill with wavedashes to utilize it well. Luigi recovers from wavedash lag MUCH earlier than his momentum runs out, so doing wavedash towards -> wavedash in place to stop yourself short is a great way to control your spacing as well as bait things while still maintaining your speed. I never really used this myself back when I played Luigi, so this is mostly theory, but I think it has a lot of potential.

 

[BluEG]

up B oos is a fine option if they do an early aerial on your shield. It hits on frame 5, faster than any of your other oos attacks, but will only sweetspot if they are pretty much on the ground, so its not good vs late aerial pressure. Also I generally wouldn't go for it unless it would kill them, since it doesn't seem worth the risk of missing otherwise.

I think if you use it at lower percentages it could psychologically mess with your opponent. Get them afraid.


As far as wave dashing then wave dashing in place. You can do it fast. Very fast. The trick is to be come ambidextrous with wave dashing. You wave dash with one hand and wave dash in place right after with the other. Once you get the rhythm, its an easy motion. I'm still messing around with it in friendlies but I'm not quite comfortable to add it to my normal play, as it is challenging technically.

If someone could get extremely proficient at dash dancing/wdashing/wdashing in place, theres just an endless possibility of odd movements around the stage, especially when platforms get involved.

 

[Winston]

Yea I agree, it's very fast and it's great. That's exactly what I said. I'm just saying that Luigi players don't really have great tech skill at the moment, but they should work on it.

Using two hands is a really cool idea and I've never thought about it before. I think I could do it fine with one though, I'd just have to practice a lot.

And up B is just a terrible idea at low to mid percents - there's just SO much lag on his up B. The space animal will just land and hit you. A grab is much more valuable at those percents. And that's not even counting the risk of you missing...