The Official Falco Critique Thread

[Bloodcross]

vs Dazwa (Kirby) 1
vs Dazwa (Kirby) 2
vs Dazwa (Kirby) 3

I need a lot of Kirby help apparently. I didn't do so well at all. I'm aware I was too predictable with phantasm, I'm usually not that stupid. Sigh, help?

vs Dazwa (Kirby) 1 (GF)

New Link, the rest of the GF's I used MK -_-

 

[AvoiD]

WaterTails, err, wow lol. Almost every match 6 minutes, and the quality, hehe.

Anyways, heres the critquing.

You depended on chaingrab so much. Against D3, chaingrab to spike isn't always gonna kill, but I think you know that. Nair, Utilt, Dair, Reflector, Ftilt all help in tihs matchup. I only saw Dairs though.

We can juggle D3 pretty easy with tilts and aerials, don't rely on lasers racking up your damage the whole time. Campings good in this matchup, but you shouldn't keep repeating how you do it.

Heres what I saw. When you tried to camp, you'd short hop laser, when he approached, you phantasm'd. Every single time, and if he saw that coming, he could've mindgamed you into an Fsmash. He just kept going for the grab as well though. Don't laser off stage though, I saw you would short hop onto/off the ledge. D3's edgeguarding, specifically, Bair/Dtilt ***** Falco. But looks like the D3 didn't know the matchup to well. And get the SHDL down. The way you were doing it, seems like it'd hit only tall characters like Bowser, D3, Ganon, etc, but it won't work for others.

Don't abuse phantasms to where someone can read every single one and punish. You'd always cancel your phantasm when he approached, its good you know how to, but don't play flashy in tourney if you know its gonna cause you a stock/the match. Learn to IAP consistently as well, regular ones have more lag, which you'll get punished more easily.

Your recovery, mix it up. You'd always do the same thing over and over, just phantasm on stage. Mix it up with ledge attacks, get up, jump, etc. Firebird from the ledge is not such a great idea if you want to get eaten by a smash, but for recovering, its good instead of using phantasm every single time. Mix it up, fall low and recover with FB if they are expecting the usual.

You are way to predictable. You'd always roll behind or in front of him after you did an attack or missed a grab. Try spacing with reflector, or f-tilt if your in range. Or, just IAP opposite side and proceed to camping if thats your playstyle.

Summary of all that is: Just be less predictable. Mix up how you camp, from SHL > SHDL > SHDL > SHL, combine different ways. Learn to IAP right. Change up recoveries every so often. SHDL correctly. DO NOT RELY ON GRAB/CHAINGRABS.

If you need any more advice, go ahead and ask. I'll do BC+ in a few.

---

EDIT: BC, I honestly don't know this matchup all to well at all. I gathered a few posts that I found might help, as well as the link to the rediscussion thread if you wanna take a look.

Matchup Rediscussion: Kirby!

Not to be nitpicky, but I'm not sure if you're watching the same videos as I am.

Meta Knight's best strategy against Wario is to get the lead and then wait for Wario to approach, period. In MK vs. Wario, this in itself works because Meta Knight's defensive game is stupidly good. Wario is forced to rush in and probably take more damage or risk losing due to time.

Mew2King plays too aggressively against Wario players. I can attest to that. When a Meta Knight plays properly, it's -at best- 40-60 in Meta Knight's favor.

As for Falco vs. Kirby, the same thing applies. It's not about literally running away for eight minutes--it's about forcing the Kirby to approach at all. Ground approaches are easily stuffed by Falco's jab and his scary grab. Air approaches are terribly slow--if Kirby takes to the air, Falco can Phantasm. It's as simple as that, and as a result, if Kirby definitely has to get in and get damage in, he's in a lose/lose situation. All it takes is a Falco that can use that desperation to get more openings and make the gap wider. Falco is capable of doing massive amount of damage from low percents, which means that if just took a stock, Kirby should be really worried.

Based on everything said in this thread, a rating between 50-50 and 60-40 is probably best.
I personally don't agree with it (well, the 60-40 I do), but that's besides the point.

Falco has:

-Lasers that can still disrupt us and set up combos, especially when we are in the air.
-A great jab.
-A good grab game which can set up for things, despite not CGing.
-Phantasm, that allows you to get away quickly, and stay out of range.
-Good disjoincts in general.
-A very good hyphen smash.



Kirby has:

-The tools to generally avoid lasers.
-The ability to take the lasers and camp you harder.
-The ability to rack up damage on you very fast due to your weight and our comboable moves.
-The ability to kill early if we can land a kill move.
-Follow ups to just about everything that hits.
-The tools to gimp your sub-par recovery.
-Inhale Break footstools, if we can manage to get it off... (Very rare)
-Better stages in general.



Essentially, Falco has to play a "Don't get hit" game, though with his specials and Kirby's lack of speed, this is not unfeasible, and you can avoid getting comboed while dealing damage, though the match will be very boring. You can also combo us fairly well.
All in all not unwinnable by any stretch, but Kirby does have an advantage IMO.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wow bloodcross, your playstyle is way to similair to mine 0_o

I focus abit more on keeping the opponent guessing, but I liked the vids.

Kirbs is just a *****

 

[AvoiD]

I really liked his playstyle to, one of my favorites along with SK's and Undergrounds.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I really liked his playstyle to, one of my favorites along with SK's and Undergrounds.

I never said I liked it, I said I played it too.

Though I'm more (like I said) focused on keeping opponents guessing (WHY THE *** DID HE DTILT)

 

[AvoiD]

My bad then doo.

Here are a few matches from awhile ago, both me losing. The Ness was Earthbound360, probaly one of the top Ness's I'm not gonna lie. It's wifi, and had some lag, but no johns, I messed up alot during those matches.

And I didn't know the matchup, at all. I haven't played to many good Ness`, and if I did, I wasn't using Falco.

KuroZero (Falco) vs. Earthbound360 (Ness) 1
KuroZero (Falco) vs. Earthbound360 (Ness) 2

3rd match I don't think I asked to be uploaded, but I ended up winning that one. It was friendlies btw.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Bloodcross. Try approaching with Laser, Grab. You phantasm more than you laser. You also need to grab more. And jabbing is important.

The whole time Dazwa was like "toss, edgeguards, winz"

 

[Bloodcross]

Bloodcross. Try approaching with Laser, Grab. You phantasm more than you laser. You also need to grab more. And jabbing is important.

The whole time Dazwa was like "toss, edgeguards, winz"

Actually against Kirby I've learned not to approach at all... well basically I'm just following the quotes KuroZero posted (reflex's in particular). So in conclusion, gay. That is all

 

[Jon?]

Kuro, I don't know if it's just me but your videos seem to load really slow for me. Took like 15 minutes to load the first replay.

But anyways, pretty good play overall. Sometimes instead of spiking after a CG, I will jab cancel into jab cancel into jab cancel. If you do this you force the Ness to try to recover vertically which puts you in a better situation to ledge grab and gimp Ness.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Actually against Kirby I've learned not to approach at all... well basically I'm just following the quotes KuroZero posted (reflex's in particular). So in conclusion, gay. That is all

Well then don't approach with the tactic I proposed but use it to defend. Kirby is pretty scary if you only laser and phantasm.

 

[Bloodcross]

Well then don't approach with the tactic I proposed but use it to defend. Kirby is pretty scary if you only laser and phantasm.

That's true. Although I'm trying to theorize what to do against them. Like don't approach, just SHDL and Nair when Kirby Bairs? Ground approach I'd Jab cancel Grab. During the matches I didn't try to airdodge all the time when I was in the air... yet that got punished too, hmm. I need to use Nair more often imo.

As for stage choice, Battlefield is a personal favorite stage for me. It gives me a lot more options to recover on stage (via platforms) from offstage, or to recover from the ledge (wall jump > Bair etc.)

FD seems good. SV too. Japes... NO probably not. It only makes my Kirby problems worse with the higher ceiling. It's good stage for Kibz anyway, wouldnt take that chance.

Is my theorymon alright? lol

 

[BleachigoZX]

I agree with the stages too. I think Bair beats out Nair though, try RAR'ing a Bair to counter Kirby's Bair. I think you trade. Not sure, I play pretty fast and tend to forget how to do things.

 

[AvoiD]

Kuro, I don't know if it's just me but your videos seem to load really slow for me. Took like 15 minutes to load the first replay.

But anyways, pretty good play overall. Sometimes instead of spiking after a CG, I will jab cancel into jab cancel into jab cancel. If you do this you force the Ness to try to recover vertically which puts you in a better situation to ledge grab and gimp Ness.

Uh, I think that might just be you lol.

And never thought of trying that, thanks.

I tried to play a get away game on him, not actually camping, just look for a quick opening and attack. Ness juggles Falco, not as good as some others, but its good.

That, and I dunno how I kept getting hit by PKT2 in the first vid, lolol. 2nd vid I got around it though, tried to play it safe.

 

[Bloodcross]

I agree with the stages too. I think Bair beats out Nair though, try RAR'ing a Bair to counter Kirby's Bair. I think you trade. Not sure, I play pretty fast and tend to forget how to do things.

Ahh I'm sorry, I left something out.

Nair OoS is what I meant. Shield the Bair and then Nair him.

 

[Denzi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQze26amfw4&feature=related

Get at my sexy Falco =P
I think I have one where I loose, I just have to find it.
It'd be better for critique.

Since this is the critique thread, I played a not so great Falco, so you guys can look at that match too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTVPU94_nZ0

EDIT:

Oh GOD I suck vs Wario.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3atMDsWdWk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPHHTqhtrfA

EDIT2: Avion asked that I put up his Falco matches for him.

BBoy (Diddy Kong) vs Avion (Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIvKh_M0evs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLJS2XA2yk0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWlu-eFqVW4

Avion (Falco) vs BYAA! (Meta Knight)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt7iUX_EhCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCPlktPJMBE

 

[BleachigoZX]

You could have lost a stock 10secs into the first match...>_>;

 

[Denzi]

Wait, what?

 

[AvoiD]

He's talking about the first match against the Wolf, after you were off the stage, the Wolf could have edge-hogged, or gimped you, but he just stood there.

@ Denzi: You seemed like you knew the Wolf matchup, not much I can tell you there. Don't rely on chaingrabbing though, once he's out of the CG-able %, be ready to get smash spammed/comboed/juggled/laser *****. Keep your distance, he'll usually use Nair into another attack quite often.

All his tilts good, his f-smash shield pokes, d-smash and u-smal for the kills. Reflector ***** your lasers as well.

Mm, Blue Rogue, I remember him from GFAWS! Heh. He's one of the best Wario's imo.

Camp moar. Most Wario's just jump around, waiting for you to use a laggy attack, and punish it right afterwards.

What I saw was that you'd do, maybe 2 SHDL, or a few SHL and try to rush in and punish. Not always gonna work. You got attacks in a few times, but don't make it predictable with what you were doing with SHDL to FF D-air.

Wario's bite can **** your phantasm/iap, so be careful with it, and use it well. Your recovery options needs to be mixed up. You phantasmed on stage almost the exact same way, and evertime Blue tried to punish you, he missed.

You didn't rely on grabbing him, you got it when you had the chance/found an opening, good ****. You seem to like dairing him, and then an up air, if it misses, come down with a dair again. You could do some mindgames with this, don't do the same thing over and over though.

Last, I saw you tried to become a lil bit flashy with the BPG. Against patient players, its not gonna work. They'll punish it way to easy if you miss it as well, and since its Wario, he can lure you out, and then wrap. Your Boost Smash, I recommend not using it right after your opponent retreats from you. You'd run, and try to do it. Learn distances, if you run, they figure your gonna attack somehow, usually expecting a dash attack I'm guessing. But if you can time it right, and its unexpected, go for it.

Summary of all I've said.

- Camping helps, maybe not in this matchup, but be sure you can do it right when the time comes.
- Unpredictability, you need it. Your recoveries, and the patterns you have in your lasering/IAP
- Flashiness against patient players, err, doesn't work to well

If I can think of any more, I'll post. Doing Avions now.

 

[M@v]

Wait, Who was the other Falco in out pool besides Denzi and I ? Also, I'm not in any vids ;_;. I didn't even know most of the pool matches got recorded.

 

[Denzi]

Wait, Who was the other Falco in out pool besides Denzi and I ? Also, I'm not in any vids ;_;. I didn't even know most of the pool matches got recorded.

Yeah, I had no idea either. The other Falco was the same guy who used Wolf.

Thanks for all the advice Kuro, I need all the help I can get.

And it wasn't an attempt at flashiness really, it's a relatively quick tech to throw out with deceptive range that in past matches I've caught a lot of people with. I just overdo it.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yow denz, a vid of you? :o

Please don't argue with things I say here, if you don't agree just let it be and don't incorporate it in your game, i'm not out to get you.

first match (falcooww)
In the first vid I saw that you used fsmash and dair as 'aim-to-miss' moves, while they aren't, they are rather punishers, it's better to use your bair or lasers for that kinda stuff.
Also, you always ledgehop phantasm back on the stage, try to use getup, getupattack, getup roll, ledgedrop laser, ledgedrop walljump regrab, ledgejump etcetera. you have so many options so why go with ledgedrop phantasm?

second match (your marth)
first thing i noticed was that youre kinda reliant on sideB, moves like dtilt are great spacing too, sideB is more of a punisher because if its blocked the opponent can easily retaliate. later on the falco was kinda open for it and you took the opportunity, but thats the players mistake, dont get to used to it.
also, I guess youre unaware of hard landing, well if you used upB to return to the ledge after a ledgedrop, and you jump on the stage you get a hard landing, which is quite some lag. try to cancel it with a fair autocancel or airdodge.
if you keep getting hit by the jab combo just di out, and get a free tipper fsmash. or di up and get a free fair, upB is hardly worth it except at killing percentages.

match 3 (against wario)
first thing I noticed is that you got an early grab, lol that's something rare on wario. you made use of it by chaingrabbing and spiking, but you didnt capitalize on his bike jump, which creates a quite predictable path, just spamming lasers should 1. force an airdodge or 2. get him low, both are bad for wario as his upB sucks, often leading into a guarenteed edgeguard.
Also, against wario I use my 'wario wall' which is consistent of lasers and nairs, if you space it right wario has nothing against nair in terms of aerials. he cant bite if you come from below, bike doesnt help all that much and well you might get hit by downB though, but if you are on those percentages its better to phantasm away anyway. Oh and upB works too, but most warios dont know it, if they do try to mix your nairs with uairs.
Oh and again, watch out with onstage phantasms, the ledge is almost always better, especially when theyre far away from it themselves. (in the match notice how he killed you twice because you phantasmed on the stage)
And really, theres no reason to stop laser camping to use aerials, you'll only get shieldgrabbed, play gay to win.
You're also quite risky going offstage, this is a no-go against pretty much every character, you'll get gimped in 1 aerial. the risk vs reward is baaaaaad.
and don't screw up the chaingrab, running is safer on wario, easier to time
Oh and the end is exactly why I ALWAYS say DONT PHANTASM CANCEL, THE TIMEFRAME IS 3 FRAMES, WHY WOULD YOU EVEN RISK IT. (and it was on the stage too)

match 4 (wario again)
Lol, again with the early grab... lovely! this time you were in the position to spike him back or at least stage spike him with bair, but you didnt take the risk, I can't say thats a bad thing, but a bair wouldnt have impaired your ability to recover that much... then again this isnt really a bad thing, just something you should consider. I still prefer using a ledge dropped reverse laser against lower wario bikes.
Also, I said this before already, watch the tip of the fsmash, it easily leads to a laserlock. Here you missed that exact opportunity, cant blame you, but you might just pay attention to it.
probably the third time I said it, but you have to try to hit the ledge some more with your phantasm. Oh and dont try to search the fight in the air against wario if you can use lasers, really unnecessary.


Wall of text done.
Solid falco overall, it's a bit how I play my falco in relaxed friendlies, in tournament matches I play so much more gay. Just keep working that wii man.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Yow denz, a vid of you? :o

Please don't argue with things I say here, if you don't agree just let it be and don't incorporate it in your game, i'm not out to get you.

first match (falcooww)
In the first vid I saw that you used fsmash and dair as 'aim-to-miss' moves, while they aren't, they are rather punishers, it's better to use your bair or lasers for that kinda stuff.

Yaw, thats that mind game where they think you're open, unless the opponent has seen it before it is useless...

 

[clowsui]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGpj7XzOYe4

this is the only friendly out of all the ones that were recorded that i didn't get distracted (the ness one...i started laughing in the middle and **** lolllll) or that i didn't try to test something (vs. tyr's lucas...wanted to see if i could get advantage by lasering him back to 0)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yaw, thats that mind game where they think you're open, unless the opponent has seen it before it is useless...

wut

elaborate, i dont understand wtf youre saying

 

[clowsui]

he means you aim to miss against an opponent who isn't experienced v. falco
that way you can punish them for trying to punish you
you know, baiting?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

he means you aim to miss against an opponent who isn't experienced v. falco
that way you can punish them for trying to punish you
you know, baiting?

aim to miss isnt only for baiting.

It's like a sheik spamming bairs while retreating, it's to make cover or to set out zones.

dair isn't good to cover nor to set out zones
Lasers do make cover and do set out zones
Bair does make cover and does set out zones (around falco, because of it's range it's better)

Aim to miss isnt necessarily for baiting

 

[BleachigoZX]

You should never throw a attack to cover zones. You should only attack to make your opponent feel uneasy (Spacing/Brickwalling), or to hit them.

Thats my philosophy...>_>

 

[clowsui]

throwing an attack to cover zones is useful but throwing it out to miss is completely useless when you can actually ATTACK them to cover the zone. if you miss, the opponent can punish you...if you don't miss the opponent has a much harder time hitting you through the zone

 

[Denzi]

Thanks for the help Xonar.

I can't say the first & second matches were 100% serious though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Thanks for the help Xonar.

I can't say the first & second matches were 100% serious though.

Ah well, who gives.

Clowsui, that's why you don't use laggy attacks for 'aim-to-miss', you just don't understand..

 

[BleachigoZX]

I only "aim to miss" lasers.

Becuase they force specific approaches. (Shields, crouches, counters, jumps)
The damage is just a bonus lol

 

[clowsui]

against any opponent unless i've played them before i have NO idea whether they know my zones or not

if they don't then WHY WOULD I EVER THROW TO MISS? SERIOUSLY. throwing to miss means that they can read my zones and plan a counterattack...while i might still be trying to figure him out

the only real use for aiming to miss is baiting, as bleachigo just noted and as i noted

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Have you ever seen a marth approach a falco?

Marth starts using Fairs at mid-close range already, aiming to miss to limit options.
Phantasm will be interrupted, your aerials will be beaten etcetera. All aiming to miss.

If you don't get the whole idea out of that example I guess this discussion is pointless, as you fail to see the point I'm trying to make.

 

[clowsui]

then he's doing it wrong
the marth doesn't have to exercise the option
he can do it on reaction
there are tons of things he can do on reaction RATHER than the sh fair that would put him in an equally good position

if you throw out the attack but you aim to hit him and you miss it's a completely different story. aiming to miss to exercise zone control provides you with lag that you don't want.

it's also acceptable to predict options and then throw out the attack

btw when i approach falcos with marth, most of the time they stay in shield so i just put shield pressure on them lol

they'll probably roll or phantasm etc something to reset the situation

in ALL cases where i aim to miss with marth i PROBABLY could've just hit him or hit his shield or try and beat his dodge etc. to put me in a better position

 

[BleachigoZX]

Yeah, but Falco doesn't have a sword. We can't throw out any attacks without being punished. Marths disjointedness makes it safe to space (Brickwall) like that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Brawl is a proactive game for marth, not reactive.

 

[Teran]

Denzi! NEEDS MOAR LASERS!
The rest is just refinement of play which quite frankly, essays and little gripes and nitpicks won't really help with.

 

[clowsui]

for marth? i disagree lol
prediction is a huge part of the best marth players
acting on prediction is proactivity...not just throwing out attacks and having people punishing the spatial control that you lack on the aerials at different times

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

for marth? i disagree lol
prediction is a huge part of the best marth players
acting on prediction is proactivity

This is just you agreeing with me.

...not just throwing out attacks and having people punishing the spatial control that you lack on the aerials at different times

theres a difference with 'just throwing out attacks' and using 'aim to miss' moves effectively.

 

[frayike]

Hey, so I picked up falco last week, and my friends are amazed how good I got with falco. in such a short time. I read some stuff on him, but I know I'm still making alot mistakes with him. I'm sorry these vids are only of me playing a sonic. I realize you guys probably don't have a lot to work with but please bear with me. My friend has more char.s and I can play other people but I just want to know exactly what I need to work on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSXdJ7DyeQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr_wljOoqXI&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNFxj20ckm0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p0xo_fSCnc


Help would be great!(Cuz I know I need it!) I love playing falco and getting better would help me show my friends what a BA Falco is! Whew for laser spam......phew