The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Shaya]

can you elaborate on why the priority matters?

Normal priority is based on damage output.
MK's 3 damage tilts would clash with EVERYTHING or get beaten out by everything else.

 

[Steeler]

Normal priority is based on damage output.
MK's 3 damage tilts would clash with EVERYTHING or get beaten out by everything else.

yeah, he'd clash with everything, but it would still be safe on hit...well, i guess that's why you meant "pseudo" roy syndrome.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Huh?
Dtilt is kinda like some people’s jabs. For example, characters like Marth can Up B out of it, but a majority of characters have to SDI out of it because there isn’t a thing they can do.

Also, on the topic of Zelda’s Nayru’s Love, it can be used as an efficient combobreaker, but it’s best used for roll spammers/spotdodge lovers.

The problem with Zelda is the fact she doesn’t have a good approach game. Usually aerial attacks are used for approaching, and 4 of her 5 aerial attacks really can’t be used. (Like Shaya said, if you don’t sweetspot fair/bair, then you’ll get punished, yet if you do sweetspot, then she’s back where she started. The opponent is on the other side of the stage. lol) Dash attack is okay for approaching though. Or walking toward the opponent while powershielding **** they throw at you. The stage has to run out sometime. Walking f-smashes ftw.

On the flip side though, her defensive game is pretty solid, and pretty much any of her moves can kill a medium weight character really easily. Unfortunately, Zelda has trouble landing that kill move because her range isn’t that great and she doesn’t have a sword.

Also @ people saying Din’s Fire is totally useless:

It has its uses, like when the opponent is offstage, but that’s about it.

ALSO.

Her Dash attack is awesome. Frame 5, and like 12-6% damage, and it puts them in the air, which is good for Zelda.

Anyways, I still believe that Sheik should be used a majority of the match, the switch to Zelda for the kill. Zelda kills faster than Sheik, so you can save a lot of time, and refresh your moveset when you change back. Sheik/Zelda > Sheik > Zelda.

Zelda isn’t THAT bad, she just needs some representation. Even Ganon gets more rep than she does.

yay for opinions.

 

[Yikarur]

Zeldas killmove which kills faster/better is upsmash, the other attacks aren't reliable kill moves ;0

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zeldas killmove which kills faster/better is upsmash, the other attacks aren't reliable kill moves ;0

Very true. And it pokes pretty decently from below a platform too. Not so much on a ground level though. It's probably her best move (Along with dtilt).

Edit: But it gets stale pretty quickly though if you use it too much. (Which I do. lol)

 

[<π]

Zeldas killmove which kills faster/better is upsmash, the other attacks aren't reliable kill moves ;0

what?!

utilt, dsmash, LKs, uair.

 

[Purple]

Just sweet spot them.

You could say that with EVERY move that has a sweet spot. Not always going to happen though, considering it's not only at your expense that it's sweet spotted but your opponents maneuvering lol.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Huh?
Dtilt is kinda like some people’s jabs. For example, characters like Marth can Up B out of it, but a majority of characters have to SDI out of it because there isn’t a thing they can do.

Also, on the topic of Zelda’s Nayru’s Love, it can be used as an efficient combobreaker, but it’s best used for roll spammers/spotdodge lovers.

The problem with Zelda is the fact she doesn’t have a good approach game. Usually aerial attacks are used for approaching, and 4 of her 5 aerial attacks really can’t be used. (Like Shaya said, if you don’t sweetspot fair/bair, then you’ll get punished, yet if you do sweetspot, then she’s back where she started. The opponent is on the other side of the stage. lol) Dash attack is okay for approaching though. Or walking toward the opponent while powershielding **** they throw at you. The stage has to run out sometime. Walking f-smashes ftw.

On the flip side though, her defensive game is pretty solid, and pretty much any of her moves can kill a medium weight character really easily. Unfortunately, Zelda has trouble landing that kill move because her range isn’t that great and she doesn’t have a sword.

Also @ people saying Din’s Fire is totally useless:

It has its uses, like when the opponent is offstage, but that’s about it.

ALSO.

Her Dash attack is awesome. Frame 5, and like 12-6% damage, and it puts them in the air, which is good for Zelda.

Anyways, I still believe that Sheik should be used a majority of the match, the switch to Zelda for the kill. Zelda kills faster than Sheik, so you can save a lot of time, and refresh your moveset when you change back. Sheik/Zelda > Sheik > Zelda.

Zelda isn’t THAT bad, she just needs some representation. Even Ganon gets more rep than she does.

yay for opinions.

If marth is up bing you out of dtilt then you're doing it wrong.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If marth is up bing you out of dtilt then you're doing it wrong.

This. If Marth can Up-B out of it, then any other character would be able to shield, since D-Tilt doesn't get you off the ground (unless it's done at very high percents).

 

[rPSIvysaur]

The advantage on D-tili @ low percents is a negative advantage, meaning Marth can up-b out. However after around 40% or so it starts to become a positive frame advantage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The advantage on D-tili @ low percents is a negative advantage, meaning Marth can up-b out. However after around 40% or so it starts to become a positive frame advantage.

Good point. I didn't realize that, but I guess all Zelda mains know that, because I've never been able to get out otherwise, which means they're always started it at 40+% on me. Either that, or they're lucky.

I learned something today.

 

[YagamiLight]

Roy Syndrome is a bit of a tricky thing to apply to Brawl as Roy had a very clear cut scenario in which case he would get punished for his moves. I'm no Melee expert but from my understanding Roy gets punished for landing a hit when he either uses an aerial and hits with a tipper (the worst sourspot in the history of smash, btw) or uses any move not called Fsmash, DED 3rd hit down or grab on a crouch cancelling opponent.

A lot of moves in Brawl start out with negative frame advantage (see: Zelda + Lucas Dtilt) but as time goes on they begin to actually gain frame advantage on the opponent. Other moves such as many dash attacks or Quick Draw simply do not hit far enough at low percents and have waaaay too much lag and are guaranteed to be punished after use.

Roy's tipper aerials were always very poor. Almost all of the "Roy syndrome" attacks in Brawl have a time and a place. It just isn't at low percentages.

 

[phi1ny3]

Thank god Lucario has transcendent priority. Those disjoints with horrible damage would be meaningless.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lucario is just beast in the air

 

[Saske Kedari]

yea but marth is more god with aerials in air

 

[phi1ny3]

but are they on fire?

new topic: Previous Melee top tiers are underrated in this game.
Peach, Sheik (+Zelda if you want to argue that in), Fox go go go

 

[Blacknight99923]

yea but marth is more god with aerials in air

he meant in general, he wasn't saying lucarios aerial strength was greater only that it was good



and since they aren't on fire obviously they aren't as cool

until you see the beauty and elegance of marths swordplay
the way the sword glows

the way the cape billows

the way teh......
never mind only fellow mains can understand why marth is so amazing

 

[<π]

but are they on fire?

new topic: Previous Melee top tiers are underrated in this game.
Peach, Sheik (+Zelda if you want to argue that in), Fox go go go

truth. the reason they got it so bad is because of how differently they play from their old counterparts... at least that's how I feel. Once you are labeled as bad or unviable once it is so hard to over come that title. thats why gdorf will always be last.

 

[Aegri Somnia]

new topic: Previous Melee top tiers are underrated in this game.
Peach, Sheik (+Zelda if you want to argue that in), Fox go go go

Marth? Falco?

As a general rule though, I blame the mechanics.

 

[phi1ny3]

Marth? Falco?

As a general rule though, I blame the mechanics.

But marth and falco aren't underrated.

But yeah, I think Peach is the only one out of those three that didn't get screwed over majorly by a mechanical flaw (still doesn't mean she didn't get hurt, look at her air dodge lol)
Then again when you have aerials and space control like that, it kinda compensates for that.

I really think that although sheik/zelda combined wouldn't be on the tier list merely to maintain proper tier semantics (Wha? Two characters in one position!?), I still think as a tool Zelda should be considered (also allows sheik to play differently)

 

[Blacknight99923]

I think fox is underrated although he has rather bad match ups

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Captain Falcon and Jiggs are still a little underrated, too.

I think people sort of exaggerated how bad they'd become and they've never quite recovered from that perception. Fox, Peach, Sheik, Captain Falcon, and Jigglypuff are all anywhere from a little to a lot better than they are ranked.

 

[Shaya]

Fox?
Maybe.

Peach?
maybe

Sheik...
maybe maybe...

falcon and jigglypuff aren't moving out of low tier.
Any time soon.

I can give you a couple of reasons why Sheik isn't ****ing sweet as bro any more:

1. No invalidating most of the cast with chain grabs.
2. No guaranteed kill moves on even more of the cast from a grab.
3. Needles comboing.
4. Kill Moves.

Sheik Status:
Her amazing move properties were nerfed. Her **** game breaking physics in some of her moves weren't transferred over.

I can give you a few good reasons besides CGs that Fox isn't sweet as:
1. Fox is now light weight bro.
2. Not every move fox has is absolutely stupidly amazing any more. Like seriously. Start up. Cool Down. Range. Damage. Kill Power. Every move bar like forward air was the ****ing ****.
3. Broken shine physics.
4. Like of wave dashing.
5. 3 + 4 = Fox isn't actually a game breaking character any longer.

Fox Status:
A character who in melee could arguably have had top 5 in the game for nearly each individual move he had... now is known for his usmash...

If you haven't noticed, both sheik and fox were some of the fastest start up characters in melee, and they still are in brawl.
For magical reasons fast start up characters were weakened... Then somehow meta knight came along...

Falcon and Jiggs had distinctively great things going for them in melee non-existent in brawl:
Easy combos into... KILL MOVES.
Great grab games and whacky range/disjoints.

hmm..
Peach.
Well... Peach got the nerfed air dodge, nerfed second jump. Suddenly she is a lot more restricted in her aerial prowess.
They also removed crouch cancelling, which whilst not being a major facet of her high level game, was a strong means of punishing.
Oh, and they also removed most of her kill potential (fthrow, bair, nair, etc>
Turnips now disappear on block. Imagine if they weren't? (I've brought this up in the past but MY GOD)

Many good characters in melee had options that were just outright amazing, that had their properties toned down considerably in brawl. Other good characters in melee had specific "options" removed, through changes in the move sets or how the brawl's physics changes also changed the usability of moves.

 

[phi1ny3]

TKD will usmash and SHTL his way to victory...

 

[Purple]

I got an idea, you guys should close this thread and only allow mods and smods to post in it.

Conversation would be much more intellectual.

 

[<π]

Fox?
Maybe.

Peach?
maybe

Sheik...
maybe maybe...

falcon and jigglypuff aren't moving out of low tier.
Any time soon.

I can give you a couple of reasons why Sheik isn't ****ing sweet as bro any more:

1. No invalidating most of the cast with chain grabs.
2. No guaranteed kill moves on even more of the cast from a grab.
3. Needles comboing.
4. Kill Moves.

Sheik Status:
Her **** options were completely nerfed. Her **** game breaking physics in some of her moves weren't transferred over.

I can give you a few good reasons besides CGs that Fox isn't sweet as:
1. Fox is now light weight bro.
2. Not every move fox has is absolutely stupidly amazing any more. Like seriously. Start up. Cool Down. Range. Damage. Kill Power. Every move bar like forward air was the ****ing ****.
3. Broken shine physics.
4. Like of wave dashing.
5. 3 + 4 = Fox isn't actually a game breaking character any longer.

Fox Status:
A character who is distinctively not the top of his class any more ...

If you haven't noticed, both sheik and fox were some of the fastest start up characters in melee, and they still are in brawl.
For magical reasons fast start up characters were weakened... Then somehow meta knight came along...

Falcon and Jiggs are pretty bad because:
1. They were "AMAZING" because of combos.
2. Yup. Combos. Grab game ****.
3. Combos.
4. Did I mention they don't destroy people any more from easy to combo into kill moves?
5. Their "haxy" disjoints were removed.

hmm..
peach.
Well... Peach got the nerfed air dodge, nerfed second jump. Suddenly her options in the air were ****ed over.
They also removed crouch cancelling, something that allowed peach to destroy a lot of the melee cast.
^ does that mean one of her most "Lol" means of damage were removed?
Oh, and they also removed all of her kill potential.
Turnips now disappear on block. How ***** are her options?

tl;dr good characters in melee had **** options that were distinctively removed in brawl. Some characters like Fox and Peach were amazing from versatility of their options in specific situations, but these things were distinctively nerfed/removed in brawl.
gg.

see thats exactly what I meant. people compare them to their old versions instead of working with whats new. what fox did in melee has absolutely nothing to do with brawl fox. same goes for every other character in the game.

(also sheik does has kills out of grabs on a larger portion of the cast, don't jump release XD)

 

[Shaya]

Of course characters were "worked" with what they had changed.
Did no one get the memo about marth's dancing blade and dolphin slash?

Strategies and specifics of a character were developed strongly in melee, obviously. And through comparison you can articulate a lot of things.
Yes these things were removed, but look what was added.

For sheik specifically she obtained a more usable whip, has all of the "extra options" (wall cling, wall jump, crouch, crawl, tether recovery), ftilt [which unfortunately isn't all encompassing... like let's say... her melee dthrow].
Otherwise a majority of her move set was toned down. She has a lot of new things to work with that I implore as "great"; she has a CRAPTOP of options. However, as I said, she lacks the all encompassing mixs up in every situation; some of her options are rarely usable in standard sets (wall jumping for example). The lack of an aerial kill move is truly one of the biggest things holding her back from being able to obliterate opponents. On an option per option basis she has hardly any bad match (bar the lame cgers ) ups, but she has to work significantly harder in every one of them than the opponent.

Tier List defines viability in a weird way. Sheik can win. But it's just noticeably easier to do so with someone... else. Who gets things going for them like cgs, great move properties (kill power), etc.

 

[Dark.Pch]

hmm..
Peach.
Well... Peach got the nerfed air dodge, nerfed second jump. Suddenly she is a lot more restricted in her aerial prowess.
They also removed crouch cancelling, which whilst not being a major facet of her high level game, was a strong means of punishing.
Oh, and they also removed most of her kill potential (fthrow, bair, nair, etc>
Turnips now disappear on block. Imagine if they weren't? (I've brought this up in the past but MY GOD)

Why are you bring up things like crouch cancelling with Peach when that is a universal thing and it was only in Melee? Tier list spots have no biss being compared with melee to show reasons why a character is in their current spot.

Come on dude, you getting weak on me right now saying things like this. Brawl and melle are 2 different games with a different engine and techs.

 

[Shaya]

People brought up "these characters are underrated after melee"

it's screaming COMPARISON. And comparatively speaking, they're "worse" characters than their melee counter parts. Doesn't indicate where they are on the brawl tier list though considering they still have to compare their new selves with EVERYONE else.

Crouch cancelling is noticeably sexy with peach and samus

 

[Dark.Pch]

People should be saying "These characters are underratted causepeople doon't know much about them or not playing them on point"

It makes more sense for this tier list then a melee comparison.

 

[<π]

sheik has aerial kills but sheik kills high has hell on average. fair kills, nair kills(something like peach's nair), uair, SS bair are all decent kill moves. but you run into the same problem peach can. those are your best moves and you use them a lot, they true combo into ftilt dash attack needles, etc. so you can end up using them quite a bit.

Sheiks kill options are far from stellar, all sheik mains understand that I hope. but she has very nice set ups out of jab(jab->dsmash/nair) ftilt(ftilt usmash) and grab release(most of the cast into usmash on jump release) and~ you get Zelda (Zelda)~

 

[Shaya]

*cries a little when people bring up zelda as a solver for sheik's problems*.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm saying they're underrated after melee, not that the are underrated because of melee.

Perceptions change. People look at these characters as being "not as good as they were" and hence are underrated now, but that's faulty. Even if they're "not as good as they were in melee" they might still be better than they are perceived to be now.

The tier list is all perception, after all.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

*cries a little when people bring up zelda as a solver for sheik's problems*.

At least you can take Ice Climbers as a result.

 

[phi1ny3]

People should be saying "These characters are underratted causepeople doon't know much about them or not playing them on point"

It makes more sense for this tier list then a melee comparison.

Naw, I'm not saying they are great because they were in Melee, just bringing a small common trait to help as a memory hook in a way.

I think people get the misconception that the reason to switch to Zelda is only a counterbalance for Sheik's bad MUs. Not quite the case, unless you think covering maybe one or two extra MUs counts as "helpful".

I like to look to it as something else, more of a specified pool of tools created for general purpose in a strongly advantagous scenario which helps compensate for both character's shortcomings in one instance.

For one, sheik doesn't have to worry about nitpicky ftilt -> usmash scenarios weighing decay and such, and can use usmash as a heavy damage wracking device as it conveniently becomes linkable after ftilt (sweetspot usmash can do like 40% in one go? Pretty nice finisher to get the opponent in killing range before the switch if you ask me).

Unless the opponent stresses on being safe to the point of out damaging sheik and avoiding Zelda as a one hit kill tool (with dtilt as a decent frame trap to most of her kill moves), I think using Zelda should be considered on merit of the situation, and not from a very neutralish perspective people tend to give the idea.

It's also been something I've been beginning to experiment with.

 

[smashkng]

Captain Falcon is a horrible character. Just because Ally uses him doesn't mean he's not bottom 5. He has bad and high amount of weaknesses and he has lots of bad matchups. Even in low tiers he suffers against Ike. I can't see him ever leaving the low tier. Jiggs however just lacks people because it is like Wario but worse in almost everything, some by a huge difference.

 

[Browny]

Sigh... when will it end.

jiggs is nothing like wario. They have only 3 traits in the entire game which are remotely similar, everything else is a polar opposite.

similar: great horizontal mobility, very powerful close-range downb, dair
complete opposite: weight, throws, every single attack that wasnt mentioned above, multiple jumps, KO power, recovery styles.

Seriously, most characters are similar to others by a significant degree with the exception of snake but Jigglypuff really isnt similar to wario. Heck, even ganon is more similar to pit (throws, f/dtilt, dash attack, dsmash)

I realise jiggs may be similar in the fact that she camps with aerials.... but wait a second, so does half the cast -_-

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

They both have a really long DACUS.

:D

 

[Spelt]

I can cover more distance than puff's dacus can on one leg hopping blindfolded with a polar bear strapped on my back.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Here's what i think tier list should be: High=S, A, B Tier / Mid = C, D Tier / Low E, F Tier

With Zelda/Sheik separate
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: :shiek:
F:

With Zelda/Sheik separate
S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E: (/:shiek
F:

EDIT: inb4legendaryangryaboutwhereiputwario