The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Conviction]

Also I will not mind playing Star Wars Battlefront 2 with Falco to avoid the chaingrab.

 

[Nefarious B]

Falco plays that game better than fox though

 

[Conviction]

Not when Falco's reflector isn't as good as Fox's.

 

[smashkng]

SFP, Link will always be near the bottom as long as there isn't a player like Ally or San who uses him and can prove him why he isn't the 2nd or 3rd worst character. Plus he is difficult to use yet he still has unwinnable matchups with characters like MK, Falco, Wario and DDD. Bad recovery is a bigger factor than it looks like, considering it makes him much easier to KO and is also the main reason why DDD ***** him (bad recovery vs huge grab range which leads to a chain grab which set-up edge guard at any percent= lol).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SFP, Link will always be near the bottom as long as there isn't a player like Ally or San who uses him and can prove him why he isn't the 2nd or 3rd worst character. Plus he is difficult to use yet he still has unwinnable matchups with characters like MK, Falco, Wario and DDD. Bad recovery is a bigger factor than it looks like, considering it makes him much easier to KO and is also the main reason why DDD ***** him (bad recovery vs huge grab range which leads to a chain grab which set-up edge guard at any percent= lol).

In this community, we expect a lot more from low and mid tier characters than we do high tier characters when it comes to evaluating how good or bad they are. This isn't really logical. If, say, Ike placed top 10 consistently at regionals and nationals for six months, we'd say "hey it's just the player" even though we already only really have a sprinkling of Pikachu players placing top 10 anywhere. If Ike suddenly got top 3 at a national, we'd change our thinking and maybe move him up five places. For the six months prior, this theoretical character was placing top 10, consistent with other high tier characters (who oftentimes don't really place top 10, most of the time we see a lot of Snakes, MKs, a random Falco and Wario and a Diddy maybe) but we didn't move him at all. This is a little bizarre and tragic. We require characters to dramatically outperform their capabilities to even consider that they might be better than where we've placed them, even though their real rank could be somewhere between those two extremes (and oftentimes is).

Link doesn't have to dramatically outperform bottom tier to move out of bottom tier.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Links recovery is the reason he's low and is the reason he'll most likely stay there. Pretty much al you have to do is get him offstage and hit him once during recovery and he can no longer recover. He also doesn't have a very safe recovery and it's easy to get a hit on him.

 

[uhmuzing]

Don't forget about that awful OoS game.

 

[smashkng]

I think his recovery is only 1 factor of how bad he is, although it is still one of the biggest reasons. Another major problem of Link is his awful close combat game where no matter how hard he tries he always loses to anyone not named Ganon because he has 0 moves that are faster than 7 frames and his moves don't push shielders far enough to be free from punish when at close range he hits the opponent's shield. His recovery for example is a really big factor vs for example Samus and Peach who'd otherwise have really hard time killing Link but because of his bad recovery that problem is fixed for them.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Link actually moved up to A tier.
He has this rather nasty trick you can use.

 

[Aegri Somnia]

Might as well create my own interpreation of the current metagame in the form of a tier list.

Broken:



TOP:



HIGH:


MIDDLE:

:shiek:

LOW:



BOTTOM:



This is just a rough generalization, there are several variables and results to take into account.

 

[vVv Rapture]

All of these new hypothetical tier lists begs a question:

When will we get Tier v5? I'm curious as to see how the BBR has looked at the metagame since v4.

 

[Aegri Somnia]

All of these new hypothetical tier lists begs a question:

When will we get Tier v5? I'm curious as to see how the BBR has looked at the metagame since v4.

Not for a while.

There are usually extensive intervals between each list so the metagame can be properly analyzed.

 

[vVv Rapture]

Not for a while.

There are usually extensive intervals between each list so the metagame can be properly analyzed.

I dunno, v2 and v3 were in the same year and only a few months between each other (January to June), then followed v4 earlier this year.

2 versions in 2009, I'd assume we'd get at least the same or at least relatively the same amount in 2010.

 

[Aegri Somnia]

The metagame also happened to be changing much rapidly during v2 and v3.

Not so much anymore.

 

[Conviction]

January 15: Tier List Project Manager Selected
January 30: Head Director Vote to Begin
February 10: Head Director Vote Vote to End
March 1: Recommended Ruleset Project Manager Selected
March 15: Tier List Update
Marth 16: New Member Admission threads created
April 15: New Memberw Admitted
June 1: Recommended Ruleset Update
July 15: Tier List Project Manager Selected
September 15: Tier List Update
September 16: New Member Admission threads created
October 15: New Members Admitted

 

[Blacknight99923]

diddy and snake aren't in their own tier above falco

 

[TheReflexWonder]

diddy and snake aren't in their own tier above falco

And they're certainly not in the same tier as Meta Knight.

 

[Aegri Somnia]

And they're certainly not in the same tier as Meta Knight.

My bad, fixed.

Everything else is my concrete opinion though. Nitpick away.

 

[uhmuzing]

Somebody doesn't like Pit very much...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

My bad, fixed.

Everything else is my concrete opinion though. Nitpick away.

Hah, you didn't have to change it.

I think you're underestimating Pokémon Trainer, of course.

Also, I think Falco is the second best character in the game.

I'm glad that you feel Game and Watch isn't very good.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Game and Watch is like a better Zelda - used to be really good cause people were still getting to grips with the game and enjoyed running into stuff that hurt but as people wised up and the metagame changed, they stopped running into stuff and learnt how to DI and stuff

Poor G&W

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think all tier lists so far - including the BBR one - are complete and utter trash (except mine ) and should absolutely not be taken as a guidline for the metagame or anything related to competitive Brawl.

The best way to create a Tier list is how TKD does it for his match-up chart / tier list stuff. What you do is to look at how many times a character wins in a match-up out of 10 games if both players are playing at their best (aka minor errors are inevitable but match-up knowledge is a non-issue) and make that the match-up ratio. Assuming MK plays 10 games against Marth he will most likely win about 7 times. Therefore MK gets +7 points whereas Marth gets only +3 points. That way we make sure that a match-up ratio has a solid, CONSISTENT foundation that does not apply to personal bias or arbitrary definitions but statistics. Once we've filled our match-up chart you add the points together to see how many points one character has for all match-ups counted together. The higher the number, the higher the tier position.

I don't think there's a better approach to create a tier list and I doubt a tier list that's not created that way is unlikely to be even close to accurate.

My 0.02

 

[Willz]

Gheb you are so stupid!!!

Falcon for high tier!!!

 

[Rappster]

I think all tier lists so far - including the BBR one - are complete and utter trash (except mine ) and should absolutely not be taken as a guidline for the metagame or anything related to competitive Brawl.

The best way to create a Tier list is how TKD does it for his match-up chart / tier list stuff. What you do is to look at how many times a character wins in a match-up out of 10 games if both players are playing at their best (aka minor errors are inevitable but match-up knowledge is a non-issue) and make that the match-up ratio. Assuming MK plays 10 games against Marth he will most likely win about 7 times. Therefore MK gets +7 points whereas Marth gets only +3 points. That way we make sure that a match-up ratio has a solid, CONSISTENT foundation that does not apply to personal bias or arbitrary definitions but statistics. Once we've filled our match-up chart you add the points together to see how many points one character has for all match-ups counted together. The higher the number, the higher the tier position.

I don't think there's a better approach to create a tier list and I doubt a tier list that's not created that way is unlikely to be even close to accurate.

My 0.02

I think that it would be better to make it a ratio of stocks taken, instead of a winning percentage.

If an evenly matched marth and mk play ten games, and the mk wins them all by one stock each, that is clearly a better matchup than if Mk and link play ten games and mk wins eight by an average of 2.5 stocks and loses two by one stock apiece.

if you go with games won, mk has a 10-0 matchup with marth and an 8-2 matchup with link.

if you look at stocks taken, however it's a different story.
MK vs Marth had a score of 30 stocks taken to 20. thats a 6-4 matchup.
MK vs Link had a score of 28 to 10 which rounds to a 7.5-2.5 matchup

 

[san.]

The thing wrong with that kind of thinking (the 10 games thing) is... How is it different from any other arbitrary matchup ratio? You're still just making up in your head how characters played by unidentified players on arbitrary stages play, with results that come out of who knows where, which really puzzles me how any of that could make sense.

 

[stingers]

best idea ever guys

we should have every player of one character play every player of every other character in a huge round robin and use the results to determine the tier list

this can't fail

 

[vVv Rapture]

best idea ever guys

we should have every player of one character play every player of every other character in a huge round robin and use the results to determine the tier list

this can't fail

This. It can't fail.

 

[Kitamerby]

Let's clone Ninjalink and have him do the whole thing instead.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

best idea ever guys

we should have every player of one character play every player of every other character in a huge round robin and use the results to determine the tier list

this can't fail

Sounds amazing.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Links recovery is the reason he's low and is the reason he'll most likely stay there. Pretty much al you have to do is get him offstage and hit him once during recovery and he can no longer recover. He also doesn't have a very safe recovery and it's easy to get a hit on him.

This whole post is so uninformed.

Link's recovery is not good, but there are characters with recovery who are probably worse and are way higher up on the tier list than he is. There is more to a character's recovery than the distance provided by their up special. I'm not sure how many times I must say this before people stop regurgitating the same old ****.

Link is ridiculously heavy and falls fast. His up air bucket breaks. His bombs and boomerang provide amazing edgeguard protection. His up-b has pretty good "priority" and his hard to hit through. High-level Link play rarely involves gimping/edgeguarding. Olimar gets edgeguarded way more.

Link is low tier, but not bottom tier, and he's low tier because he's easy to counterpick with characters and stages, and bad OOS (like really bad, worse than ZSS or Yoshi or anything), not because his recovery is terrible.

His offensive on-stage and camping games are too good for him to ever be bottom tier, lol. WAY WAY better a character than Ganon and by no means in the same tier.

There are only two things that matter: results, and match-ups. Match-ups are hard to quantify, I agree. But that still doesn't mean you can get a tier list by stacking up a bunch of traits from a character and adding them up and going "oh, well he must be bad." This kind of thinking leads to Ness in low tier, ZSS being ranked lower than Zelda in tier list 1.0, etc.

 

[san.]

I'm more interested in characters who used to be looked down upon because of infinites fare, now that many people have adjusted to rules where most of these infinites are banned.

 

[Chuee]

Link's Uair doesn't bucket brake ._.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link's Uair doesn't bucket brake ._.

Yes it does? Try it. Bair, then uair. Link stops.

 

[Yikarur]

and bad OOS (like really bad, worse than ZSS or Yoshi or anything)
.

there is no way a character could have worse OoS Options then Yoshi!44



and @Paris thingy, an aerial doesn effect your knockback momentum at all so that's bull****.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You would be surprised

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'm more interested in characters who used to be looked down upon because of infinites fare, now that many people have adjusted to rules where most of these infinites are banned.

I agree. I wonder if they are taking that into account for v5.

 

[Throwback]

I haven't followed this thread, but mario needs to go up. He's pretty close to sheik in terms of his quality as a character.

 

[#HBC | J]

This whole post is so uninformed.

Link's recovery is not good, but there are characters with recovery who are probably worse and are way higher up on the tier list than he is. There is more to a character's recovery than the distance provided by their up special. I'm not sure how many times I must say this before people stop regurgitating the same old ****.

I'd like to ask which characters you believe have worse recovery because the only one I could think of is Ike =/ (just curious)

His offensive on-stage and camping games are too good for him to ever be bottom tier, lol. WAY WAY better a character than Ganon and by no means in the same tier.

Link does NOT have a too good camping game to be bottom tier. Please explain your reasoning.

Just two questions for you SFP.

Also San do you mean like Mario/Samus (DDD) and Lucas/Ness (Marth/DK)? However I think Mario needs to be looked into more. I'm curious to see Mario do alot better cuz i think there is something there.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's recovery > Link's recovery.

I'll take less fall speed + actual existent vertical recovery if I've already used my second jump > slow projectiles + zair

 

[#HBC | J]

true enough =/ but Ike was the only one I could think of someone thinking is worse.

Sorry Nidtend ^^"