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The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter Shaya
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Faster is running off Manually when you are near the ledge. You are also spacing from the edge in a noticeable way to get that to work over and over. Second Arrow to cancel/grab the edge, further back to stop at the edge then fall off/stay onstage.
What matters is when Pika would grab the edge. His personal frame data concerning the edge is both a plus and a con. It lets him move from the edge faster than everyone sans tethers, but with the trade off of having his invincibility being shorter overall. If you grab it right after the first Uair, it's not a big deal MK is still invincible and has options out the butt. Now, if you grab it right before he does the second Uair, you have a better shot at punishing him. The main problem is that Pika can't really do anything to go head to head with MK. He can get there to the edge during various points, but he can't do something like a quick Dair to hit MK. He can "get close", but doesn't have anything to really threaten MK. Besides Nair, I don't think he has anything fast enough that would hit MK in that spot (being slightly below or barely at level with Pika).
Depending on when you grab the edge, you can either try to punish him or it's out of the question. The frame window for this is pretty small, and hinges on grabbing the edge RIGHT after his first Uair (as Pika only, everyone else is excluded completely because they are too slow off the edge). Even then, it doesn't stop his other options.
Lol Gyros. Yeah cause MK can't avoid them or hit them or grab them.
What matters is when Pika would grab the edge. His personal frame data concerning the edge is both a plus and a con. It lets him move from the edge faster than everyone sans tethers, but with the trade off of having his invincibility being shorter overall. If you grab it right after the first Uair, it's not a big deal MK is still invincible and has options out the butt. Now, if you grab it right before he does the second Uair, you have a better shot at punishing him. The main problem is that Pika can't really do anything to go head to head with MK. He can get there to the edge during various points, but he can't do something like a quick Dair to hit MK. He can "get close", but doesn't have anything to really threaten MK. Besides Nair, I don't think he has anything fast enough that would hit MK in that spot (being slightly below or barely at level with Pika).
Depending on when you grab the edge, you can either try to punish him or it's out of the question. The frame window for this is pretty small, and hinges on grabbing the edge RIGHT after his first Uair (as Pika only, everyone else is excluded completely because they are too slow off the edge). Even then, it doesn't stop his other options.
Lol Gyros. Yeah cause MK can't avoid them or hit them or grab them.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
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Ok, so we've at least established that pika can get to the ledge. Now...
Pikachu
Invincibility Frames - 34
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 12
Ledge Drop Frame - 14
Everyone else
Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26
It's true that if pikachu were to stay on the ledge, he'd be overall more vulnerable. But if he releases as soon as he can he has 20 frames of invincibility like everyone else. So he'll have 20 frames of invincibility, while MK will have (20 - time since release) frames of invincibility. In otherwords always less. What moves can combat him during this time? Well pika has 3 aerials under 4 frames. Bair would probably work best, but any of them could be used.
What other options are you thinking of though? He cant scrooge because pika can get to the opposite ledge much faster with QA. He could waste jumps trying to move out of range, but I can just renew my invincibility frames until he inevitably has to return to the stage. Let me know if I missed an option.
Pikachu
Invincibility Frames - 34
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 12
Ledge Drop Frame - 14
Everyone else
Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26
It's true that if pikachu were to stay on the ledge, he'd be overall more vulnerable. But if he releases as soon as he can he has 20 frames of invincibility like everyone else. So he'll have 20 frames of invincibility, while MK will have (20 - time since release) frames of invincibility. In otherwords always less. What moves can combat him during this time? Well pika has 3 aerials under 4 frames. Bair would probably work best, but any of them could be used.
What other options are you thinking of though? He cant scrooge because pika can get to the opposite ledge much faster with QA. He could waste jumps trying to move out of range, but I can just renew my invincibility frames until he inevitably has to return to the stage. Let me know if I missed an option.
Bair and Fair are not good options because of their hitbox locations and the fact that you can SDI out of them pretty easy (especially considering Pika is falling with it). Dair is ok, just kinda slow. You won't have Dair guaranteed unless you grab the edge while MK is lagging from his first Uair (like in the middle of it or right after the start, not near the end of Uair), and he also commits to the second one. Nair has a better shot at hitting him frame wise obviously, but position wise it's pretty hard. You can have a frame advantage on MK, but not be able to cover the distance to exploit it. Characters can get a frame advantage on MK from PSing his Uairs, but not be able to reach him in time for it to matter (which sucks). In Pika's case, honestly if he had a Dair like MK he would be the best choice in the game to stop planking, even better than another MK. He's got the speed (if you get in at the right time), but not the range, to stop it.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
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I considered posting this last time, but bairs hitbox is awesome. I comes out in 4 frames.
Pikachus range issues are sort of misunderstood. For now Ill just say that pikachu has good range in back of him, especially in the air. So hanging from the ledge with the opponent off stage is a great position for pikachu to be in. To use bair, rather then release do a fast fall from the ledge, then do a rising bair. This allows me to follow MKs momentum as well. Range isnt an issue here unless MK blatantly decides to jump far away from the stage, where he is just putting himself into a worse position or will eventually just be forced to land on stage.
Dair and Fair I wouldnt trust for this for a few reasons. You mentioned at least a few of them. Uair and nair simply gives pika even more options. But given bairs disjointedness, mobility, and how long it stays out I think its his best of the three. Then uair, then nair.
Pikachus range issues are sort of misunderstood. For now Ill just say that pikachu has good range in back of him, especially in the air. So hanging from the ledge with the opponent off stage is a great position for pikachu to be in. To use bair, rather then release do a fast fall from the ledge, then do a rising bair. This allows me to follow MKs momentum as well. Range isnt an issue here unless MK blatantly decides to jump far away from the stage, where he is just putting himself into a worse position or will eventually just be forced to land on stage.
Dair and Fair I wouldnt trust for this for a few reasons. You mentioned at least a few of them. Uair and nair simply gives pika even more options. But given bairs disjointedness, mobility, and how long it stays out I think its his best of the three. Then uair, then nair.
Actually fast falling and rising with Bair costs you too many frames. You need to do a falling aerial if you realistically want to punish MK, when also considering where he will be positioned. It's hard enough framewise to hit him in the gap with a falling aerial, let alone dropping down a bit and rising before even inputting the attack.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
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I guess Im not sure where you think hes going to be.
Im assuming that hes in range of attacking me at the ledge within one to two jumps. If thats the case then pikachu should have plenty of time to do an appropriate aerial. If he's not in range, I have no reason to chase after him, Ill just stall with skull bash until hes forced to come back.
Im assuming that hes in range of attacking me at the ledge within one to two jumps. If thats the case then pikachu should have plenty of time to do an appropriate aerial. If he's not in range, I have no reason to chase after him, Ill just stall with skull bash until hes forced to come back.
milesg2g
Smash Champion
What's the discussion?
Meru.
I like spicy food
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planking is a joke...
you can't plank sheik or peach or pika or rob or pit or jiggly puff or samus, lol!
people need to actually try at this game before they start complaining about things IMO.
you can't plank sheik or peach or pika or rob or pit or jiggly puff or samus, lol!
people need to actually try at this game before they start complaining about things IMO.
gallax
Smash Hero
Play me I'll show you. remember what I did to you with sheik the other day with the chain? Chain makes it so you can't ledge drop or I get the edge and I get invul, AND I get instant ledge drop. if you stay on you lose your invul and I can use upB to force you off the stage while completely invincible with the explossion from vanish. if you don't get up you at worst take damage.
That is why M2K told me sheik has the best recovery in the game :/
EDIT:
(Because he couldn't edge guard my sheik.)
That is why M2K told me sheik has the best recovery in the game :/
EDIT:
(Because he couldn't edge guard my sheik.)
no you can't...
Kenrawr
Smash Master
Lol, I'm bad at this game right?
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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I was tried of reading the Iliad, so I did this.
@<3: Chain is tether recovery, I do not get how chain does anything.
troll hardr
gg
gg
i was tried of reading the iliad, so i did this.
gg
@<3: Chain is tether recovery, i do not get how chain does anything.
you jump off stage if he lets go of the ledge you chain it during the 30+ frames he can't. the pull in is 100 percent invincible so its not like you'll get hit out of it.
If he doesn't you upB timing it so that the explosion overlaps with his invulnerability runs out.
he can't ledge drop and hit you because you are invincible during Vanish.
If he doesn't you upB timing it so that the explosion overlaps with his invulnerability runs out.
he can't ledge drop and hit you because you are invincible during Vanish.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
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and then he isn't planking you.
sheik has solid mix ups to get on stage. Even against the all powerful MK.
if you grab the edge with chain you aren't stuck on the edge, you can let go frame 2.
The Truth!
Smash Ace
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Everyone appreciates your random and uninformed post.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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Blissard
Smash Lord
I sense a lot of spam and +1's.
+1
+1
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That's how we do it here in barwl tactical discussion
humble
Smash Ace
Yo dawg I herd you liek your post count, so I put a post in your post so you can spam while you +1.
Can you use IC disjoints to get Nana to run off the stage and then aerial? Simply pivot walking away from the ledge puts nana off it and popo far enough away that Uair can't reach, then buffer an aerial for nana, and have popo use ice blocks/blizzard.
Because Nana just can't die fast enough by herself, so go send her to attack Meta on the ledge. This isn't an anti plank strat, this is an anti Nana strat.
Luxor
Smash Champion
Did you just advocate SENDING NANA OFFSTAGE VS. MK!? Really?
let your woman take the fall, eh?
Life
Smash Hero
That does make me wonder whether perfect planking holds up against fused IC's.
Psyco
Smash Journeyman
Wow. Didn't expect to see Wario so high and Sonic so low.
Luxor
Smash Champion
Half the cast needs to reexamine its stalling game =/
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Does the IC's telegrabbing thing have the ability to pluck MK off of the ledge?
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
I do know that its possible to do a semi walk off thingy where you walk off then grab if thats what your talking about that lets you grab people at the ledge
I think jumpman (the texas one) made a thread on gamebattles about it back in 08 but claimed it was to difficult to be of actual use.......
I couldn't figure out how to do it with marth anyway
I think jumpman (the texas one) made a thread on gamebattles about it back in 08 but claimed it was to difficult to be of actual use.......
I couldn't figure out how to do it with marth anyway
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
I forgot I didn't post the response to your argument the truth, but suffice it to say you completely underestimated how long it would take him to grab the ledge, even in that situation.
We're looking at at least 27 frames frame QA start to ledgegrab, it's almost definately closer to 30, but I have yet to look at it frame by frame.
Last frame of QA's initial burst movement, plus 1 frame to get carried off the ledge, plus one frame to fall into optimal ledgegrab position, plus 6 frames to actually grab the ledge.
Yea, MK can definately adjust himself so he can beat the ledge-steal on reaction.
We're looking at at least 27 frames frame QA start to ledgegrab, it's almost definately closer to 30, but I have yet to look at it frame by frame.
Last frame of QA's initial burst movement, plus 1 frame to get carried off the ledge, plus one frame to fall into optimal ledgegrab position, plus 6 frames to actually grab the ledge.
Yea, MK can definately adjust himself so he can beat the ledge-steal on reaction.
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