The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[<π]

Lol @ jiggs part. xD

well... if they mess up there spacing doing a cross up...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Xonar you are being rediculous... Dash attack is like frame 5 for snake right? sheik's dash attack lets her punish pretty much every thing on sheild including aerials and the like, and it's frame 5.

jiggs rest OOS is frame 8!!! best OOS in the game!~

It comes out on 5 if you get the strong hitboxes, the weak come out on 7 and those are when he's further in his roll.

 

[<π]

wow... snake and sheik have a lot in common!

 

[Dark.Pch]

Who is actually good at stopping proper planking without putting themselves in a really bad situation?

Infact who's planking are we talking about here?

Peach is one of them. I made a thread about this. I did meta knight and Pit so far. I was gonna do jiggs and rob but I stopped updating it. Pit can't plank her if done correctly on the ledge. Meta Knight she can acutally stop on the ledge. But she has 2 frames to do so. And it is really hard. The only chancec you have to do this is a zdrop turnip snipe. Turips cancls off the ledge could help. Here is the stuff if you wanna read it all:

Some general Info first:

Invincibility Frames - 46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26

Tethers:
Invincibility Frames - 23
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 1
Ledge Drop Frame - 3

Extra Info
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
-The maximum amount of invincibility frames on ledge drop is 21 frames for everyone.

Key: (because these definitions aren't exactly set in stone)
IASA- "Interruptible as soon as". The first frame a move can be interrupted by another action.

cooldown- the frames after a move's hitbox has disappeared. The character can perform no actions until the move ends.

hitlag- the "freeze frames" the attacker experiences after an attack connects with a hitable object; be it a character, shield, or stage object.

shield hitlag- the "freeze frames" a shielding defender experiences after an attack hit their shield. Can be different than the attacker's hitlag.

shield hitlag differential - the frame difference of the attacker's hitlag and the defender's shield hitlag. A negative number means that your opponent exits shield hitlag before you exit hitlag, while a positive number means the opposite. This number effects shield advantage.

shield stun- the frames after shield hitlag . The attacker's attack animation continues while the defender is stuck in their shield.

shield advantage- the frame difference between the attacker's and defender's ability to perform another action after an attack has hit the defender's shield. The attacker can do anything, while the defender can do one of three things: grab, jump, or drop their shield. This is in the attacker's point of view, so a negative advantage means that the defender can perform and action first while a positive advantage means that the attacker can perform an action first.

shield drop advantage- The attacker's advantage after an opponent has dropped their shield. (advantage + 7). I included this because this will usually be your opponent's best shot at punishing you if you space well.

optimal shield advantage- advantage for aerials that are being used on shield and landed afterwards. This shows the maximum possible advantage; as such it's not a realistic number, but shows what is possible.


that is 4 frames around the angle meta is to hit him. Also keep in mind it is not only the speed of your attack that matters, but also the range/hitbox of the attack too.[/QUOTE]

Pit up air on the ledge:

His up air hits on frame 9. And the duration is 45 frames. So after 45 frames, if he is near the ledge, he will grab it auto? (pretty sure but hotgarbage can correct me on anything here since he is the frame wizard) He can let go of the ledge at 26 frames after holding it. But has about 21 frames to do something without getting touched due to invis frames. Now I am not sure if the frames for all the characters jumps are the same. so I am gonna go by this for all jump frames when I get accurat info on his jump if it is not the same for everyone, I will update it:


Jump airborne on frame: 6
Now pit is not just gonna drop and Upair. He have to let go and then jump. So doing some match here:

6+9= 15. The attack would come out on frame 15.

21-15= 6. Pit has about six frames of invis after doing this. (assuming he is frame perfect here) So frame perfect and doing his up-air, Pit has 6 frames he can't be touched. Now what

The move last for 45 frames.

45-6= 39 frames you can do something to break his attack since he is not invisble anymore.

So what Moves can Peach have that can deal with this? Lets first check out hit boxes of his upair

One option would be Dair.

If you ground float the move at the right time, you can hit him while he is on the ledge or lets go while he has no invis frames. You angle yourself right, the move will go through the stage. Now it seems kinda hard for the Dair to go through the Uair. But the Upair is a muti hitter. so the hit box dissapaers and then comes back again. So if Peach was to hit him out of it, it would be cause of this. Or maybe her Dair can just flatout beal his Uair. This I am not to sure about. So I am gonna stick with my first method of beating the move.

I tested this out . Somes times my Dair would hit Pit or we trade hits. But I am going by my frst method for hitting him out, so yes, this is a way to hit Pit if he wants to sit on the ledge and upair it all day. Now if he tries to do this with arrows, he is not getting away with crap if you float over the ledge and Dair.


***Note- keep in mind Distance and timing changes on stages like YI, Lylat, etc. For the floor is not flat. also keep in mind that people cant stay on the ledge for ever, they have to get off if they dont wanna get hit. Which brings me to my next idea.

The next idea to stop this is with Up-B. You have to run off the stage around the time Pit grabs it (remember, characters cant do anything right away when they grab the ledge, unlike melee when you could) Then up-B from below. Now Pits option to get you from below would be a Dair.

His Dair hits on frame 10-12 In frame 12 he covers all that is underneath him. Frame 10 he covers about 2/3. So he is open on that attack a lil more when his back is turned. The duration of the move is 36 frames

He is invisible for 21 frames after he lets go.

21-10= 11 frames of invis he has while doing it.

36-11= 25 frames you can to something to break through the move for he runs out of invis frames.

Peach up-B

Part one

Part two

Hits on Frames: 7, 11, 19, 27, 32. I believe Frame 7 is when her attack hits from the sides, and 11+ is when it hits above her. So if you was to run off and time an up-B you can hit Bit from dishing out a Dair on you. or aim for the ledge sweet spot wise. If he stays on there for too long, you hit him off. It be to hard for pit to punish you from below like this. And Up-B goes through nearly all moves above her. And if you do it like this, you can abuse this after you snatch the ledge:

- jump -> float gives a maximum of 10 frames invulnerability. If you decide to jump -> float -> land you'll have a max of 7 frames invincibility.

If he is near the ledge when you grab it and did not burn your float, You can let go and float to a bair. When you let go of the ledge, 21 frames of invis frames you have. So playing with some math here.

21-6= 15 frames of invis you have while you attack with bair
21-3= 18 frames of invis frames you have with nair
21-8= 13 frames of invis you have with upair
21-12= 9 frames of invis you have for Dair
21-16= 5 frames of invis you have with fair.

Now to find out how many frames you can be hit from the attack, subtract the duration of her air attacks from the invis frames she has from the list above.

I have not taken into account about letting go of the ledge, getting into your float, then doing the moves. So you could subract like 3-5 frames to be a lil on point. But you might get these frames on point of you just dropped off to the attacks without floating.

I'm not sure how her second jump from a ledge drop is. But you would still get invis frames I believe if you did that to air attacks.

I also think that IASA frames play a role with attacks done. This explains how sweet spotting works. And seen how if you sometimes aim for the ledge, your Up-B goes through it and end up over the ledge. I think thats how it goes, could be wrong. I'll leave that to the experts to correct me on that one. So this plays a role when get off the ledge, jump then attack. And keep in mind how much height Peach's second jump is to determin your options and how to execute them.

Also Z dropping turnips can stop Pit from this. But the timing is hard. Remember his Up-air is a muti hitting, so the hit box comes and goes. As quick as it comes and goes, turnips can abuse this and snip him. Thats why the timing is hard. But does work.

Meta Knights Upair on the ledge:

frame breakdown:
1 startup
2-3 hitbox out
4-13 aerial cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on: 2
IASA frame: 14
Aerial cooldown: 10
Landing lag: 12
Autocancels on: 21
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 2
Optimal shield advantage: -10
Optimal shield drop advantage: -3

This is of course a problem for everyone when he is on his crap on the stage. And lots of characters dont have an option to dealing with this. Lets see if Peach can break it.

Meta has to let go of the ledge then hop to an uair.

6+2= 8 Frames the move comes out. when he lets go, he gets 21 frames of invis.

21-8=13 frames he can't be touched while he does the attack.

Now lets say meta was to try and grab the ledge after one upair. When you let go of the ledge, you can not grab it for 30 frames. So when he lets go, jumps and does the move, the IASA frames kick in at frame 14.

30-14= 16 frames he has to do something else. So meta can not grab the ledge after one up air. Move ends too soon and has 16 frames to wait. For this meta would just do another uair
16-14= 2 frames he can't touch the ledge. By this time, it is hard to even abuse this while he is off stage. You would have to be lucky enough to have a move dished out already to hit this fool out of it.

When you let go, you are invis for 21 frames.

30-21= 19 frames one is able to get hit before being able to grab the ledge.

Now the aerial cool down of the move. Its 10 frames. and the move ends at 14 frames (IASA)

14-10= 4 frames he is a sitting duck before he can do anything. So Moves that hit in 4 frames or less can abuse this. (good to know if you power shield his moves and he is over you, or near him on stage while he does this.)

Now that we got all that info, lets put it into play here:

To do the attack off the ledge drop with a jump: 8 frames Move is out for 10 frames But has 4 frames that he can't do anything. So total duration of the move is 14. Invis off the ledge is 21 frames. 21-14= 7 frames of invis. and able to do something else. And would meta would do is another upair. Now around this time, meta can't be touched for 7 frames. The move is out for ten frames. 10-7= 3 frames the move is still out but him not being invinsible anymore. Now you have 3 frames to hit meta before he can do anything.

Keep in mind, you can't grab the ledge for 30 frames after a ledge drop. So now we have to add Upair x2 - 30 frames you cant touch the ledge

14+14=28
30-28=2

This dude has a 2 frame wait before grabbing the ledge. And if you know about Peachs jab, that is not a long wait. Meta can not be punished inbetween upairs cause he still have invis frames after doing the first one. If you wanna hit this fool, you have to do a move within 2 frames or less Or have an attack dish out ready to hit him within those 2 frames. So timing is important. Your best bet for this is a timed turnip drop or a Dair out already.

Meta is nearly safe doing this crap. So Dair would be an option for this. Her Dair hits on frame 12. 14-12= 2 frames Meta has to punish you. Metas upair is 2 frames, so he can do another one and clap you out of your Dair. And even if his timing is a lil off on the first upair off the ledge, dude he still have has about:

21-14= 7 frames he can't be touched and can do other moves 7 frames or less.

So he does one Dair off the ledge, can't do **** about it. He still has invis frames and can do another attack untouched. only way you hitting this fool is out of his second air attack. and you have 2 frames to do so before he can grab the ledge.

Now for 2 Uairs it would be 28 frames in total. (can't touch him out the first one anyway) and 21 invis frames once you let go. And I already went through that. A few paragraphs above.


So from what it looks like, trying to punish meta for this (frame perfect winse here) It's seriously hard to do so. You are giving 2 frames to do so. Thats not a good amout of time for us. Not I have not taken into account about meta doing one up air, taking the time to jump yet again and do another one. So we would have about a few more frames? Still freaking hard as hell, even if not frame perfect to hit this fool. Only bets for this is time turnip drops and Dairs.

The Up-B trick I used for Pit wont work on Meta with those invis frames still on him going out there and hitting us with 2-3 frame moves. An up-B from meta could end us easy trying this.

Now shielding his Uair if he puts up over the stage a lil if near the ledge:

7+2= 9 frames it takes to dish out a move.
7= frames to drop the shield
2= Shield stun from meta.

Now after the move, meat is a sitting duck for 4 frames.

9-4= 5 frames you have to punish this fool out of shield. And Peach does not have anything that quick to do so. Peach has a jab but we talking about hitting this do around the angle he is at while doing this near the ledge. His upair all above him to begin with. The only slick way to hit him is with a Dsmash. Which is 6 frames for the first hit. There is a slight chance Dsmash would work. But it's way too freaking hard to do so. it takes nine frames to sish out a move from shield if you get hit with upair so:

9-6= frames we have to abuse. And after 2 uapirs, meta has 2 frames to grab the ledge. It's really hard to do this. Power shielding may help out here. Guess run in with your shield and PS the secind Dair to a Dsmash and see if you can get that spike.

Corrupt: "Meta can drop ledge uair dj and uair twice and still grab the ledge

You're better off keeping distance and making turnips hit hit at around the same time. I like to pull a turnip weak throw it up, pull another, time a sh fthrow so i can do a insta fthrow the other turnip and make them go just over the edge. Di forward a little bit so that the gap in between the turnips is even smaller and they have the exact same trajectory. From here you force a reaction and you can pursuit with a ledge canceled bone walk and z drop/dthrow it and then float (or nair for stage spike if the turnip hit!). From here and character will have very little options because of how little time there is between the turnips."

Meta can do 2 upairs from 1 double jump and then grab the ledge. I forgot jump height and how quick an attack ends also comes into play. Thing is though, he has 4 frames to be hit after the move comes out. If he jumps and dishes out a second upair he would be a lil over the stage for 4 frames I think.

So a 4 frame move out of shield (keep in mind the shield info I just gave) to do a move

 

[-LzR-]

tl;dr
Will read later, seems like good stuff.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I thought DMG discovered perfect planking a while ago?

 

[Dark.Pch]

I saw his thread. It can be stopped, just not that simple. Look at metaknight. If he is planking on the ledge, you have 2 frames to stop him. You know how hard it is to whoop out something in 2 frames to hit him off?

Planking is nearly pefect. But is not Perfect. it's only perfect against characters that have no options for people to stop it.

 

[DMG]

It also doesn't account for using Down B as MK.

Peach can't do anything about it. You could plank her "Normally" and beat her with it. She doesn't want the edge against MK, and she doesn't want to be above him offstage at all.

It is unstoppable with Down B thrown into the mix. I've had this tested pretty extensively, ask Veril personally if you want to.

 

[Dark.Pch]

DMG, I have 2 frames to stop you. And my best option for that is timed Z drops. I never said this was something easy or 2 rely on/ Cause its pretty stupid how a character has a 2 frame open window to punish and hard to stop. Peach is one of the few characters n this game to get meta off the ledge.

And for you down, I'm better sure I can just snatch the ledge so you can grab it and you drop to your death. it's reasons like this I did not count his D-B

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Is Peach's downair disjointed? If so, how much?

 

[Tesh]

Pit can stop planking with arrow looping and dtilt.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Pit can stop planking with arrow looping

I would love to see a video of someone doing this consistantly, also the Mk would have to be pretty stupid to let that hit him

 

[Dark.Pch]

Is Peach's downair disjointed? If so, how much?

If I Ground float Near the leadge and Dair, it goes through the stage. This is why you might have seen people get stage spiked by it if they are hlodling the ledge. Usually when you are hit by an attack while hanging, you just get sent. But Since her Dair does through the stage, you get spike.

The hitbox of the move is a lil below her chest and ends a few inces below her feet. But inbetween, her whole body is a active hitbox.

 

[DMG]

Lol Actually you can use Down B in such a way that ledge snaps the edge or moves onstage in case you edge snap it.

 

[The Truth!]

Yeah...I really dont think "perfect planking" was tested that extensively. Just some weird bias combined with lacking character knowledge.

Edit: Thats not a statement in support of removing lgls or the like. I understand a large portion of the cast likely cannot deal with it, and that having to deal with what is more or less stalling without always being able to prove it in tournaments is dumb.

 

[DMG]

Looooool

LOOOOOOL

More like I don't think people realize how many different things were tested against it. We even tested Shield SDI and options from that and easily found it didn't lead to anything.

Biases my BUTT

 

[Tesh]

I would love to see a video of someone doing this consistantly, also the Mk would have to be pretty stupid to let that hit him

Its a secret technique that I will release to the community after I have tested it in tournament.

Pit obviously counters metaknight though:
-He glides faster than MK
-He has TWO swords and he turns them into a bow
-He has a projectile that goes anywhere and lasts forever
-2 Reflectors
-His Up B can push things
-He has a torso and hair
-Japan

 

[The Truth!]

More like people heavily overrate their character knowledge. Its not expected that any person should know everything about every character, but to assume that you've covered all options is silly. Of course the easiest way to determine this is to simply write down everything youve tested.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Dark Peach, is Dair disjointed yes or no, if yes, how much?

 

[DMG]

Ok.

Grenades/Bananas/Peanuts/Pit Arros/Lasers/Ness and Lucas PK Thunder/PK Fire/Pikmin/Turnips/Z dropped Items/Springs/Nikita/C4/Mortar/Fireball/Missiles/Charge Shot/Rocket Barrels/Thunder/Thunder Jolts/Dins Fire/Tethers/Needles/Chain/Shine/etc

Shield SDI/OOS Options/PS options/Edge Snaps/"Hovering" around the edge/Bouncing Projectiles off of Shields/Invincible Upb's/Dtilts and Dairs/ RUNNING OUT OF STEAM

We might even decide to test things that BLATANTLY don't work. We haven't tested if Falcon Punch Magically stops this, or if Fox's Upb can do the trick. Lol

 

[Justblaze647]

Lol @ people still taking DMG seriously.

 

[Meru.]

We haven't tested if Falcon Punch Magically stops this, or if Fox's Upb can do the trick. Lol

Well, there you go, flawed.

Dont tell me you haven't tested Sing either...?

 

[DMG]

JIGGLYPU--- GET ***** JIGGLYPUFF

That's the gist of it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dark Peach, is Dair disjointed yes or no, if yes, how much?

I thought what I said would have answered this.

Yes, it is disjointed. And by how much? The move goes through ledges.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach's dair has a disjoint, but is not entirely disjointed. If you float just above the stage and dair, it will go through the FD lip and spike the guy under it, but barely.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

More disjoint than MK's uair?

 

[Yikarur]

I thought what I said would have answered this.

Yes, it is disjointed. And by how much? The move goes through ledges.

that's not an indicator for disjointness.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

that's not an indicator for disjointness.

This isn't an easy thing to answer for a move like dair.

Disjoint of course means that there is a hitbox active where there is not a hurtbox. This means that if a hurtbox comes in contact with this hitbox before the opponent's hitbox touches their hurt box (so unless the attack is "more disjointed") it will lose. Of course this means "larger" or sometimes "more encompassing" hitboxes are better and smaller ones are not as good (although placement and angle have a lot to do with that as well, hence why some random moves beat other moves you wouldn't expect).

When peach is performing dair, her hurtbox is constantly moving on her underside, which repeatedly and quickly alters the size of her disjoint.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

More than MK's uair at max disjoint?

 

[Smoom77]

If Peach tries to float dair over MK planking, Mk can just upair through the air by jumping higher than the ledge.

 

[z00ted]

Hi my name is Illmatic and I've experienced this.

 

[Poltergust]

Ok.

Grenades/Bananas/Peanuts/Pit Arros/Lasers/Ness and Lucas PK Thunder/PK Fire/Pikmin/Turnips/Z dropped Items/Springs/Nikita/C4/Mortar/Fireball/Missiles/Charge Shot/Rocket Barrels/Thunder/Thunder Jolts/Dins Fire/Tethers/Needles/Chain/Shine/etc

I'm guessing eggs fell into etc... :<

 

[milesg2g]

PKFire PKThunder oh yeah.

 

[Laem]

lol pit ***** planking
triple looped arrow combo to dtilt spike
some1 make it happen.

 

[Praxis]

I don't want Peach to rise.
She's terrible.

If anything one or two spots, better than ROB in my opinion.

This
10this

 

[Kewkky]

MK could drop from the ledge and then immediately jump and uair, then when the uair ends jump and uair again while still invincible to hit Peach's non-dynamic hurtbox (her body)... Or he could just scrooge and done... Or he could downB plank... Or he could drop off then wait for Peach to exhaust her float and have to land to start it again then downB/upB to the ledge and repeat...

Iunno. His ledgeplay is broken.

 

[The Truth!]

Ok.

Grenades/Bananas/Peanuts/Pit Arros/Lasers/Ness and Lucas PK Thunder/PK Fire/Pikmin/Turnips/Z dropped Items/Springs/Nikita/C4/Mortar/Fireball/Missiles/Charge Shot/Rocket Barrels/Thunder/Thunder Jolts/Dins Fire/Tethers/Needles/Chain/Shine/etc

Shield SDI/OOS Options/PS options/Edge Snaps/"Hovering" around the edge/Bouncing Projectiles off of Shields/Invincible Upb's/Dtilts and Dairs/ RUNNING OUT OF STEAM

We might even decide to test things that BLATANTLY don't work. We haven't tested if Falcon Punch Magically stops this, or if Fox's Upb can do the trick. Lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjmuTs6Qc6Q#t=00m012s

The one I linked to specifically. The ones before and after are different. Not to mention he can also send a jolt and QA to the ledge as the jolt covers the ledge. He can also just jolt and chase it. He reaches the ledge as the jolt curves around and goes down, again covering him as he grabs the ledge.

Im sure theres stuff for other characters you also have not considered.

 

[Pikabunz]

Pikachu is the anti-planker.

 

[stingers]

gyros still beat it.

 

[demonictoonlink]

You know how I know know MK's planking isn't perfect? Because if it really was, somebody would make a video of MK planking the exact way as specified while PK thunder was swirling around him. Try it. You get hit.