The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[The Truth!]

LOL its not even close to 27 frames no matter how you look at it. You must be thinking of the wrong one. Anyways we already established pikachu can get to the ledge.

Yea, MK can definately adjust himself so he can beat the ledge-steal on reaction _____.

I think the words youre looking for is "maybe" and "but theres no way in hell we can test this". Theres honestly no point trying to argue or you just end up with several posts back and forth of theory craft bros. More importantly "perfect planking" moves from tested fact to unprovable theory.

btw DMG for reals thanks for providing all the information and arguments that you did. It was nice to hear everything properly explained.

And the disclaimer once again: Im not advocating for the removal of LGLs or other methods to prevent planking/stalling. I understand how it can ruin the game regardless of whether people can deal with it or not.

 

[adumbrodeus]

LOL its not even close to 27 frames no matter how you look at it. You must be thinking of the wrong one. Anyways we already established pikachu can get to the ledge.



I think the words youre looking for is "maybe" and "but theres no way in hell we can test this". Theres honestly no point trying to argue or you just end up with several posts back and forth of theory craft bros. More importantly "perfect planking" moves from tested fact to unprovable theory.

btw DMG for reals thanks for providing all the information and arguments that you did. It was nice to hear everything properly explained.

And the disclaimer once again: Im not advocating for the removal of LGLs or other methods to prevent planking/stalling. I understand how it can ruin the game regardless of whether people can deal with it or not.

Where's my math wrong then?

19 frames for max distance for quick attack 1 cause you need it to end to work properly, otherwise you can't cancel the endlag.

At least one following frame to be carried off.

At least one following frame to get into optimal ledge grab position.

6 frames are required to grab the ledge frame there.


The ledge has certain core mechanics, you can't just ignore them.

 

[Kenrawr]

Oh God.. Tag (The Truth!) is debating.

sighhh

 

[The Truth!]

;;

lol, stalker. Im gonna stop anyways, I dont think im made anyone too mad

Adumb if you want to learn more about the QA at the ledge go to the pika boards. No offense but theres no point in me typing it out here when the information is there. Everything else was already discussed.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What do you think the first thing I did was?

It's just ledge-canceling the QA so you end up extremely close to the zone where pikachu can snap on.


Unless there's something there that cancels the snap and unless the technique somehow puts you in perfect ledgegrab position you're looking at 7 addittional frames right there. The "being forced off the stage" frame is non-negotiable because ledge-cancels need at least a frame of interaction with the ground to work properly period.

And frankly, there's nothing in the discussion that suggests that this tech overrides the basic mechanics of the ledge somehow, let alone frame by frame analysis to back it up.


Finally, eyeballing it, it looks like there's around 9 frames tucked within the tech.

 

[The Truth!]

Pikachu's QA interacts with the ledge in 3 or more different ways depending on what you do. Like I said youre very likely thinking of the wrong one. Either way its irrelevant to what was discussed. If you want to learn more about it Ill answer questions on the pikaboards, im not going to respond about it here anymore.

 

[Luxor]

Nope, Adum's got it all right. Learn your facts, man.

 

[The Truth!]

Why are you insisting about having this conversation here?

Oh look, its the technique you guys are describing

Oh hey wait a minute, heres what I'm talking about.

Whats that? Theres an entire thread dedicated to discussing the differences between those two and other forms of QA-ledge tickery? With a video and write-ups for those who don't know much about it? If only someone had directed them to the pika boards where the discussion belongs :embarrass.

I dont know the exact frame data, but what you are describing is wrong. This is a ledge (auto-)snap, not a regular ledge cancel. At the very least as researchers/a bbr member you guys coulda maybe, iunno, researched before jumping to conclusions

 

[Laem]

i know nothing of QA but it looks like Truth just took a dump on you guys

 

[Kenrawr]

i know nothing of QA

Let's keep it at that...

edit:
@ Yaaay: You can do it into an aerial or a bspecial. You'll prolly just end up getting up aired or something though.

 

[Meru.]

...What's the use of that technique?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Pikachu's QA interacts with the ledge in 3 or more different ways depending on what you do. Like I said youre very likely thinking of the wrong one. Either way its irrelevant to what was discussed. If you want to learn more about it Ill answer questions on the pikaboards, im not going to respond about it here anymore.

Stop making stupid assumptions, I was talking about QA to "immediately" grabbing the ledge as illustrated in your vid.

Why are you insisting about having this conversation here?

Oh look, its the technique you guys are describing

Oh hey wait a minute, heres what I'm talking about.

Whats that? Theres an entire thread dedicated to discussing the differences between those two and other forms of QA-ledge tickery? With a video and write-ups for those who don't know much about it? If only someone had directed them to the pika boards where the discussion belongs :embarrass.

I dont know the exact frame data, but what you are describing is wrong. This is a ledge (auto-)snap, not a regular ledge cancel. At the very least as researchers/a bbr member you guys coulda maybe, iunno, researched before jumping to conclusions

Except it's relevant HERE, you can't just dodge the situation by saying "other thread".



Do you even get what that ledge auto-snap is from a frame prospective? Here's a hint, I broke it down in my initial response, a frame to get off the stage, at the very least a frame to get into position, and 6 frames to actually grab the ledge. You're just dealing with such small amounts of time that you can't tell the difference, and most people can't unless they're experienced at looking at things in frame-time and it still won't be exact with very rare exceptions.


There's no possible way that based on what I said it could be item 1 either, but you're not reading are you?



So unless you have TSA proof... in other words back your **** up.

 

[The Truth!]

umad? lol, but for reals no need to be so aggressive.

Im directing you to my thread because its annoying to rewrite something for you thats already been written.

What you described was definitely not the QA I had shown. At the very least it was a poor description of what was occuring. It sounds like youre not confident about it, in which case Im wondering why youre arguing? Like I said you couldve maybe researched before you jumped to conclusions, I dont think its too much to expect from a reasearcher/bbrer. If I couldve tested it frame by frame I would have done it a long time ago. Instead I made an obvious observation that it wasnt a normal ledge cancel that would follow your mechanics(your claim), and also that 27 frames sounded way too much.

Oh yeah, if/when you do test it let me know your results, I could use that info. Let me know when he becomes invincible from the startup, and if its different when the QA actually cancels.

 

[Enzo]

whens next tierlist coming out?

 

[Life]

Scheduled for tomorrow IIRC, end of the month at the latest.

 

[The Truth!]

^between the 20st and 31st

So actually I decided to do some quick crude testing. Id already sort of done this awhile ago but decided to take pictures. Granted Im following this premise I saw quite awhile ago:

-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.

Pika during his QA animation

Pika as he reaches for the ledge.

Youll notice a .03 time difference. Roughly 1/33 of a second, but I can round it down further for simplicity sake to 1/30th which helps the case that it takes longer. Thats 2 frames. Not close to 8 and certainly not more. Also Im preeettty sure that you dont have to wait for QA1 to finish all the way, so it can be as soon as frame 15 or 16. So if it is 2 frames thatd be 17 or 18 total.

 

[Smoom77]

If Pika is able to steal the ledge with QA, what does he plan on doing from there?

>_>

 

[Meru.]

Why wont he just run and grab, its so much easier @_@

 

[The Truth!]

^ LOL thats why this whole things irrelevant. Im not sure why he insisted on discussing it here.

And smoom it enters a bunch of theory from that point. Its not something you can test one way or the other, which was my criticism of "tested and fully proven perfect planking". If people want to talk about theoretical perfect planking thats fine. Plankings dumb regardless of if it can be beaten or not.

 

[Inferno3044]

^between the 20st and 31st

September only has 30 days

 

[-LzR-]

After the ruleset 3.0 we know that they can release if even in the 31st.

 

[Spelt]

Scheduled for tomorrow IIRC, end of the month at the latest.

So basically, expect it sometime early next year.

 

[Deleted member]

There's no need for them to rush. If it's delayed, I'm happy in knowing that they're taking the time to discuss it further. There's a lot to take in with every character.

 

[SnackAttack]

^ I'm inclined to agree with this guy.

Let's not forget that Melee has 10 tier-lists in 7 years and SSB64 had 3 in a very long amount of time if memory serves.

Five tier-lists in a little over 2 years? I think that it's a bit too fast.

 

[Purple]

That's not fast at all, especially if the tier lists make sense to be changed.

You can't put a cap on game development.

 

[Life]

I'd assume the Melee ones were frontloaded too, but I could be (VERY) wrong on that.

 

[Pikabunz]

...What's the use of that technique?

To ledge hog from long distances in a short amount of time.

Stop making stupid assumptions, I was talking about QA to "immediately" grabbing the ledge as illustrated in your vid.




Except it's relevant HERE, you can't just dodge the situation by saying "other thread".



Do you even get what that ledge auto-snap is from a frame prospective? Here's a hint, I broke it down in my initial response, a frame to get off the stage, at the very least a frame to get into position, and 6 frames to actually grab the ledge. You're just dealing with such small amounts of time that you can't tell the difference, and most people can't unless they're experienced at looking at things in frame-time and it still won't be exact with very rare exceptions.


There's no possible way that based on what I said it could be item 1 either, but you're not reading are you?



So unless you have TSA proof... in other words back your **** up.

With QA ledge hog, Pikachu grabs the ledge before even leaving the stage. With normal ledge hogging, you're offstage for at least 5 frames before you can grab the ledge. So you're least likely to get hit using QA ledge hogging than with normal ledge hogging.

Why wont he just run and grab, its so much easier @_@

In some cases, QA ledge hogging is faster and safer.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

can't wait for this list to come out lol

 

[Spelt]

^ I'm inclined to agree with this guy.

Let's not forget that Melee has 10 tier-lists in 7 years and SSB64 had 3 in a very long amount of time if memory serves.

Five tier-lists in a little over 2 years? I think that it's a bit too fast.

Tier lists don't control the meta game.
if the tier list becomes inaccurate after a short amount of time, there's nothing stopping another one being made

 

[SnackAttack]

Tier lists don't control the meta game.
if the tier list becomes inaccurate after a short amount of time, there's nothing stopping another one being made

I absolutely agree. I'm just saying, look at the other games and don't go too fast with it.

I mean, obviously take what I say with a grain of Salt. I don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Blissard]

YAY, IT'S SEPTEMBER 20TH!!! AND WHAT DO I SEE? TIER LIST...VERSION...****IN 4 WTF!!!???!!!???

Yeah I know theres a 10 day span, but still, anziety attacks...

 

[z00ted]

they should just release it today.

 

[Spelt]

they're gonna release it whenever it's done. :/

 

[Conviction]

I agree with Spelt, we don't want another repeat of the ruleset...even though the Tier List will always get mixed opinions.

 

[DMG]

You would not want it released today

At ALL

 

[Kewkky]

No, you do not want to see it yet. D:

Believe us, we're in the BBR.

 

[Conviction]

I trust Kewkky <3

 

[phi1ny3]

I trust Kewkky <3

What if fox was in A-tier?

haha, I jest

 

[DMG]

This is the only sneak peak of the Tier List I was authorized to show:












Lunchroom Cafeteria Food Tier


Vending Machine S Tier, banned in a few schools.


Pudding High Tier
Chocolate Milk High Tier
Chicken Fingers High Tier
Pizza High Tier
French Fries High Tier (debatable, regional biases might place them lower)


Nachos Mid Tier
Hamburgers Mid Tier
Salad Mid Tier
Regular Milk Mid Tier
Breadsticks Mid Tier
Fruit Mid Tier
Gravy Mid Tier (Up a tier if you live in the South)
Mashed Potatoes Mid Tier (Same as Gravy)


Vegetables Low Tier
Bread Low Tier


Mystery Meat Mystery Tier

 

[z00ted]

hahahahah loooool