The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Purple]

Snake > Falco.

What makes you think this? the fact Snake has always been above Falco before or other info.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

*bursts out laughing at Link's placement*

You think he should get a +11 jump? lol

Kirby and ROB are also way too low.

And Fox and Peach are too high.

ZSS is too high as well.

Snake > Falco.

I simply think that Link is a lot better than given credit for.

Kirby sucks, Rob sucks too. Seriously, how do they have more chance than for example Sheik to win anything? Kirby loses pretty much to everyone and yeah I also think he loses to Falco like 60/40.

Fox and Peach are good, but I guess you never played the top european peaches/foxes.

ZSS has been placing ****ing amazing thanks to Nick, and she's overall just a character that's way to hard to play efficiently to be as good as him, imo.

Snake is a gimmick character, Falco wears down the mind and is just overall solid. Snake can't approach for ****, and when it comes down to it, grenades won't hit except if a player makes a mistake. Snake can't land at all.


Sorry for my opinion being different, it does not warrant such sarcastic or simply insulting reactions.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What makes you think this? the fact Snake has always been above Falco before or other info.

Snake is the best option against MK currently besides another MK (Due to having the best record against MK), has less counters, better results, is better equipped to deal with planking...there isn't much where Falco is better than Snake.

Xonar, you are putting even more stock in tournament results than I do, and yet you ignore them when it allows Link to skyrocket upwards. That's inconsistent. Pick one or the other, you can't have both.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Snake is the best option against MK currently besides another MK (Due to having the best record against MK), has less counters, better results, is better equipped to deal with planking...there isn't much where Falco is better than Snake.

Xonar, you are putting even more stock in tournament results than I do, and yet you ignore them when it allows Link to skyrocket upwards. That's inconsistent. Pick one or the other, you can't have both.

Dunno, guess that the Link rise is indeed unwarranted for in terms of tournament results, but I just think that he deserves to be a lot higher than he currently is, results or not.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Then I can say that about any character you currently have below ZSS and keep bumping them up until ZSS is back to where I feel she should be. That's not very sound reasoning, claiming "I think he deserves to be a lot higher, even though his tournament results are crap". There is nothing to base it on, and we're now approaching a point were tournament results are arguably the biggest factor now in tier lists.

By the same token, you can't have one person cause a huge jump. That's just stupid, too many variables left. I've been saying that since Reflex and PT. There is a reason I think Ike should only move up to about Ness's level.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm not saying that was my prediction for the tier list, oh god no. I'm just saying that's my PoV of the tier list.

Besides, Ike has San AND Rydle. That's 2, that's good, right?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Rydle hasn't popped up that much really. Mr.Doom shows up more. He's good, but not really bringing in the results from what I can see/remember.

 

[DMG]

Ike can't Plank Falco.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ofc Americans show up more, your scene is way more active lol. In Holland we have like 1 tourney every 2-4 months.

 

[<π]

Ike can't Plank Falco.

lol he probablly could.

Falco is so over rated.

 

[smashkng]

Snake has some good approach options, his DA is really fast, has amazing range and is usually safe on shield, it's just that characters like Olmar have the tools to shut it down. And Grenades do really make characters like Ike have a hard time approaching Snake. Without them Ike would go like 50/50 against Snake. The Grenades do 12-13% damage per explosion twice as much if two Grenades explode, Snake has a very big shield and with his weight that allows to survive Grenades until like 200%, he does not have to worry much about trading hits with Grenades. It also helps a bit with landing into the ground and it is his best move IMO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike can't Plank Falco.

I'm fairly sure he can. Falco's got nothing to stop him, and if he gets too close he riskes getting aether dragged off of the stage and spike'd. We can drop down slightly farther and use aether 5 times without getting back on stage. *shrugs* Sounds doable to me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Snake has some good approach options, his DA is really fast, has amazing range and is usually safe on shield, it's just that characters like Olmar have the tools to shut it down. And Grenades do really make characters like Ike have a hard time approaching Snake. Without them Ike would go like 50/50 against Snake. The Grenades do 12-13% damage per explosion twice as much if two Grenades explode, Snake has a very big shield and with his weight that allows to survive Grenades until like 200%, he does not have to worry much about trading hits with Grenades. It also helps a bit with landing into the ground and it is his best move IMO.

Dash attack safe on shield? no, just no. Even if you get away with it, it's an outmost crappy situation.

So, your point is, Grenades are good against crappy characters without mobility or reflectors or good options? Well, Snake is still third best, after all.

Snake has a big shield but crappy oos options, his grab is 2 frames slower than most grabs allowing some characters to get away with more stupid **** than normally. No aerials out of shield, and a 10 FRAME JUMP STARTUP.

Yeah, his weight is legit though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Grenades in his hand are his OoS option. And very good ones at that.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Too bad grenades are very limited. If we go into details here, it'll get situational to the max, just like a grenades' effectivity is.

 

[smashkng]

Snake doesn't have crap OoS other than his jump. Ftilt OoS has amazing range and it's fast enough to punish most moves OoS and his DA has even more range, while the vertical range of his Utilt compensates his poor OoS with jump.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm fairly sure he can. Falco's got nothing to stop him, and if he gets too close he riskes getting aether dragged off of the stage and spike'd. We can drop down slightly farther and use aether 5 times without getting back on stage. *shrugs* Sounds doable to me.

What about this, though?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Too bad grenades are very limited. If we go into details here, it'll get situational to the max, just like a grenades' effectivity is.

Not really, grenades forces people to not hit his shield in the first place. He tosses it away at the last second, forcing the opponent to dodge and yays, all melee attacks are near worthless on shield against Snake, unless you have enough range to not get hit by the explosion! Seriously, grenades don't get abused enough, along with the various ways to drop said grenades.

Being able to crawl under projectiles is a nice advantage as well, which helps out his shield game in the fact that he doesn't have to shield as often.

@Reflex: IIRC, reverse aether makes that impossible. We talked about it on the Ike board, and we ended up concluding that those can't actually happen against a smart Ike player. There is also the fact that Ike was at insanely high %s, and not at a % where say, he could just aether again, hit Falco with it, and aetherspike him. >_>

 

[<π]

dash attack isn't but most of his moves are pretty safe, ftilt utilt. most characters can't do any thing about those and don't have the range beat it regardless.

snakes OOS options are pretty good because ftilt dash attack jab are all very very quick under 5 frames. his grab has great range is is fast enough to grab OOS pretty much everything any other charcater could.

granades are rediculously good you don't have to throw them you can control so much of the stage with granades. granade stripping kills all attempts to return the granade back to snake via throws reflectors whatever.They do insane damage with very low risk relatively low lag

He kills extremely low for this game and very safely.

falco has tons of huge character flaws people are ignoring right now. Snake has trouble landing.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Snake doesn't have crap OoS other than his jump. Ftilt OoS has amazing range and it's fast enough to punish most moves OoS and his DA has even more range, while the vertical range of his Utilt compensates his poor OoS with jump.

Ftilt OoS is 11 frames, even ZSS's utilt OOS is better, and it's considered crappy. His DA is too slow, but I'll give you the fact that it has range.

Not really, grenades forces people to not hit his shield in the first place. He tosses it away at the last second, forcing the opponent to dodge and yays, all melee attacks are near worthless on shield against Snake, unless you have enough range to not get hit by the explosion! Seriously, grenades don't get abused enough, along with the various ways to drop said grenades.

Being able to crawl under projectiles is a nice advantage as well, which helps out his shield game in the fact that he doesn't have to shield as often.

Ignore the fact that the throw has startup and lag, and sure, you can do that.

dash attack isn't but most of his moves are pretty safe, ftilt utilt. most characters can't do any thing about those and don't have the range beat it regardless.

Ftilt is far from safe, especially when you do the second hit with it. Utilt, sure, but can still get punished with quick reaction. "Most characters" are crap btw, and Snake is STILL THIRD.

snakes OOS options are pretty good because ftilt dash attack jab are all very very quick under 5 frames. his grab has great range is is fast enough to grab OOS pretty much everything any other charcater could.

His grab has great range, it's a bit too slow imo though. His shield drop makes the rest of his options automaticly slower.

granades are rediculously good you don't have to throw them you can control so much of the stage with granades. granade stripping kills all attempts to return the granade back to snake via throws reflectors whatever.They do insane damage with very low risk relatively low lag

Low risk, medium reward, low chance to hit. Yeah sure, if you have stage control they're great, but any good character won't give you that much control.

He kills extremely low for this game and very safely.

and very telegraphed. If you can't approach and you need the kill, you're waiting for your opponent to mess up. Same with nades.

falco has tons of huge character flaws people are ignoring right now. Snake has trouble landing.

Tell me about them.

 

[DMG]

Ike can't plank Falco

 

[Ripple]

Ftilt OoS is 11 frames, even ZSS's utilt OOS is better, and it's considered crappy. His DA is too slow, but I'll give you the fact that it has range.
.

a frame 11 move OOS thats not from a PS is actually very good. especially snakes. that means the move is 4 FRAMES!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

@Reflex: IIRC, reverse aether makes that impossible. We talked about it on the Ike board, and we ended up concluding that those can't actually happen against a smart Ike player. There is also the fact that Ike was at insanely high %s, and not at a % where say, he could just aether again, hit Falco with it, and aetherspike him. >_>

What is a reverse Aether? Just doing your Up-B in the opposite direction? Couldn't he just down-angled F-Tilt or F-Smash you in that case...? Or even just grab the ledge? :/

To be fair, after the damage from a standard Falco chaingrab -> D-Air stuff, a spike offstage is pretty much curtains for Ike (a standalone spike; not immediately after the chaingrab, obviously). It's not like Ike is going to be below 50% for long. Plus, even after Ike is hit at a low percent, Falco still has his amazing mid-air jump, combined with two different recovery methods. I imagine it'd take an amazing read on Ike's part to punish Falco for it, especially without getting hit himself.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

a frame 11 move OOS thats not from a PS is actually very good. especially snakes. that means the move is 4 FRAMES!

So you're saying that ZSS's out of shield options are actually very good? Have fun convincing pretty much EVERYONE of that.

 

[Ripple]

So you're saying that ZSS's out of shield options are actually very good? Have fun convincing pretty much EVERYONE of that.

range also plays a factor. don't act dumb

snake's f-tilt is a very good move OOS.

DK has a good D-smash OOS but thats 18 frames.

 

[Flayl]

ZSS UTilt's range sucks balls, how the eff do you compare that to Snake's FTilt?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Are you arguing that ZSS's Utilt/Dtilt have low range? Utilt is 10, dtilt is 12, for your information.


~sure, ZSS's Utilt doesn't have as much range as Snake's ftilt, but the range is definitely great.

 

[san.]

What about this, though?

Nullified by aether dragging. That'll just make it even easier for falco get spiked.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What is a reverse Aether? Just doing your Up-B in the opposite direction? Couldn't he just down-angled F-Tilt or F-Smash you in that case...? Or even just grab the ledge? :/

We went over this stuff months ago on the Ike boards, I can't remember everything from memory, nor would I be able to find it easily. :/ I just remember our initial concern, and then at the end being perfectly fine and not needing to change any MU ratios. I think it had something to do with what direction the hits took you and how you could SDI them. I don't remember.

EDIT: Or what San said. >_>

 

[Ripple]

Are you arguing that ZSS's Utilt/Dtilt have low range? Utilt is 10, dtilt is 12, for your information.


~sure, ZSS's Utilt doesn't have as much range as Snake's ftilt, but the range is definitely great.

you didn't mention d-tilt...

correct spacing would not allow ZSS up-tilt to hit OOS. but snakes f-tilt can hit things even if they are properly spaced

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Nullified by aether dragging. That'll just make it even easier for falco get spiked.

Hrm. Is it pulling the opponent forward or backward? Or just proper spacing from the ledge?

 

[san.]

I should have read the rest of the topic before replying.

Aether dragging is when Ike aethers the opposite way, it naturally pushes the shield towards the edge of the stage. The opponent gets knocked off the edge slightly, then the rest of aether spikes him. It is also fairly good at poking shields.

Ike is more vulnerable facing the other way overall, but there is a rogue hitbox behind him on his first spin that protects him well enough most of the time *on stages with slopes like BF and SV or floors you can go through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8efkoeM_ug

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It pulls the opponent the direction Ike is facing. Which is why with reverse aether we can pluck people off the stage, and then let aether spike them.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

you didn't mention d-tilt...

correct spacing would not allow ZSS up-tilt to hit OOS. but snakes f-tilt can hit things even if they are properly spaced

I mentioned ZSS's out of shield options.

Besides, correct spacing is different for every move. If you go through your enemy and cross up, it would be correct spacing against X, but not against ZSS.

 

[Flayl]

Not against ZSS or a bunch of characters... NAir OoS. It's not that straight-forward.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You go Nair OOS with Wario (7 frame jump startup) or Bowser or whatever, lol.

 

[milesg2g]

Ness better go above Sonic and Bowser this time.

 

[<π]

Xonar you are being rediculous... Dash attack is like frame 5 for snake right? sheik's dash attack lets her punish pretty much every thing on sheild including aerials and the like, and it's frame 5.

jiggs rest OOS is frame 8!!! best OOS in the game!~

 

[Ayoub]

Lol @ jiggs part. xD

 

[san.]

Ness better go above Sonic and Bowser this time.

I understand bowser, but not Ness. Ness only has 1 person compared to sonic's like 4-5 + doing just as well. Even Ike has 3-5 right now.

If you mean Sonic and bowser's current spot ( because I think sonic should go up quite a bit) then possibly / good chance =)