The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[Inaphyt]

I think sheikh could be a whole tier higher. The list looks alot more accurate, diddy does dererve to rise but not above snake not yet, the guy still wins tournament.

 

[Tristan_win]

I swear, at this rate it's going to take 5 more tier before Sheik is even remotely were I want her.

Also now that Zelda is bottom 3 (which I do agree she should be there but not in the same tier) she should be paired with Sheik now.

edit: I mean personally if I saw this list when I first started brawl I would never pick up sheik due to her placement. If Zelda can help boost her up even 1 spot due to a better match up against ice climbers then by all means DO IT.

 

[Acedude55]

Falcon kick

 

[Matador]

Why are we still not pairing Sheik and Zelda? Isn't every other Brawl tier list doing it?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Which makes me think of this, if Zelda and Shiek can be separate, why not allow that hack that eliminates the forced switch and fatigue on Pokemon Trainer? How is that not already allowed? They allow custom textures and music for people who don't want to look at/listen to the stuff Brawl comes with, so why not be allowed to use the Pokemon you want? Why should someone have to be able to play as all 3? Maybe I don't like Ivysaur. Should I have to play him just because I like Squirtle? Seriously, one of you B-Roomers answer this.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Because it's a hack.

Making it tourney standard raises... complications.

 

[Demp]

Which makes me think of this, if Zelda and Shiek can be separate, why not allow that hack that eliminates the forced switch and fatigue on Pokemon Trainer? How is that not already allowed?.

Consistency among tournaments and the fact not everyone has access to the hardware you need to get that hack. I am sure we would if we could, but it's not going to happen.

 

[.Marik]

Just play Brawl+.

You'd all be much happier.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I play all 5 smash games.

*maniacal laugher*

???
I can't say this is a timely manner for an updated list.....

Anyway, why is:

Zelda 3rd worst? I thought she was better than Jiggs, Yoshi, and Samus i this game.

Ike below Lucas? Did Lucas learn to work around the grab release nonense??

Sheik not higher?

 

[TaterSalad0811]

Because it's a hack.

Making it tourney standard raises... complications.

Music and Texture hacks are allowed. And why keep random tripping? This is all perfectly viable adjustments that were bad ideas to begin with that people avoid just because "it's a hack, so it must be bad".

Seriously, consider the improvements that can be made with something as simple as that.

Ok, maybe not everybody can't do it, but if you're hosting a large-scale tourney, I think it warrants funding something like this, or bringing equipment yourself.

 

[Demp]

Music and Texture hacks are allowed. And why keep random tripping? This is all perfectly viable adjustments that were bad ideas to begin with that people avoid just because "it's a hack, so it must be bad".

Seriously, consider the improvements that can be made with something as simple as that.

Ok, maybe not everybody can't do it, but if you're hosting a large-scale tourney, I think it warrants funding something like this, or bringing equipment yourself.

Consistency among tournaments and the fact not everyone has access to the hardware you need to get that hack. I am sure we would if we could, but it's not going to happen.

Music and texture hacks have no affect on the gameplay.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well apparently IC's Dash attack goes through Zelda's Fsmash

Zelda's Fsmash was the only thing in this matchup keeping it close to even

Im not very happy right now

 

[Commander_Beef]

Her only good/unpunishable moves are up smash and forward smash. Period.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Consistency among tournaments and the fact not everyone has access to the software you need to get that hack. I am sure we would if we could, but it's not going to happen.

Fix'd for accuracy.

 

[Matador]

Music and Texture hacks are allowed. And why keep random tripping? This is all perfectly viable adjustments that were bad ideas to begin with that people avoid just because "it's a hack, so it must be bad".

Seriously, consider the improvements that can be made with something as simple as that.

Ok, maybe not everybody can't do it, but if you're hosting a large-scale tourney, I think it warrants funding something like this, or bringing equipment yourself.

No. You cannot change a character and equate it to changing music and surroundings which have no substantial effect on gameplay.

Take a step back and really think about what you're asking. To take out fatigue is to change the dynamic of a character. Why not take out RCO lag? Why not make switching for Zelda/Sheik and PT instantaneous? Why not give Jiggz an ordinary shield break?

Because they change gameplay. Music/Textures =/= gameplay changes

 

[TheMike]

I would like to see in which spot Zelda and Sheik would be if they were considered one character.

 

[zeldspazz]

Her only good/unpunishable moves are up smash and forward smash. Period.

You clearly know nothing about her.

@The Mike: It would be pretty close to where Sheik is now, she doesnt have that large of an impact.

 

[Demp]

Fix'd for accuracy.

Thanks lol. I have been studying too much.

 

[Matador]

@The Mike: It would be pretty close to where Sheik is now, she doesnt have that large of an impact.

Have you seen their spot on the Japanese tier list?

 

[arcane9211]

Very happy with this tier list. Extremely close placings to the one I posted (and, of course, got criticized for- lol).

 

[Tristan_win]

I would like to see in which spot Zelda and Sheik would be if they were considered one character.

Honestly beyond like Ice climbers Zelda doesn't really do much for Sheik besides turn one 8/2 match up to 6/4.

I'm pretty sure the worst match up Sheik/Zelda has is 6/4, however she has like 10 of them.

edit: but then again, I kinda dislike Zelda and don't use her near high level.

 

[Browny]

Shiek can also "lock" people on the ground easier, and she has guaranteed stuff like Grab release into DACUS. I think that pushes her over Sonic in terms of killing.

Posting this again coz I never see any mention of it

killing ability should only be HALF of what is considered when it comes to KO moves, the ability to avoid KO moves yourself is JUST, if not more important. With sonic if I dont want to die, I will not get KO'd until I make a mistake by the majority of the cast. There is no situation they can put me in where I dont have multiple options to safely escape from. spring, amazingly good recovery, sideb invincible frames, spinshot, dash attack all very fast, long-range moves which will save your stock over and over again each stock.

dw i know sonics KO ability is horrible but hes right up there with MK and wario when it comes to choosing to not die. A trait I believe he is FAR FAR superior to sheik to. enemies can get my sonic into KO %, but that doesnt mean anything. say like ness, 'oh get sonic to 115% and its guaranteed KO from bthrow, uair or bair' Except do you know how exceptionally difficult it is to actually hit with those... simply, you will never unless i make a mistake. this continues on against characters like zss, peach, G&W, fox, pit and so many characters who can never force sonic into having 1 or less options for getting hit by a KO move.

so when I see sonic put on equal ground for shiek in ko potential yeah its ok. but hes 8 tiers above her when it comes to avoiding KO moves. bad ledge options, fast faller, no momentum shifting b moves or specials, bad dair, low range land fair/nair, bad recovery, no escape mechanism, no invicible frame attacks... You will never convince me they have equal problems in the KO deparment when you consider both sides.

such a tragically overlooked character quality yet so incredibly important. how sad.

 

[Demp]

inb4 an updated tier list with Zelda at a reasonable spot and the the SBR telling us we got trolled hard.

 

[zeldspazz]

Have you seen their spot on the Japanese tier list?

Yeah I have...so?

Have you seen Pit's? Foxes? Sonic's?

Its irrelevant in this conversation.

 

[Z'zgashi]

For all of you out there flaming about Falco still being so high, the reason he's still there is because of his ability to control the field and out spam every other character in the game. Good Falco players can just play keep away and spam for damage and combos leads all day. If the Falco is patient it can get A LOT done. He also has lots of fast, high priority, and powerful air moves with good KP and a the highest initial jump in the game with the third fastest fall, meaning he can hit you quick almost anywhere and get right back on the ground to start spamming again. Also, his chain grab is irritating and he has a very good DACUS. That's a lot to deal with already. Sure he's gimpable and has bad recovery, and that's why he isn't higher. If it was for the two big problems, people could argue that he's almost as broken as MK.

Not to mention his ability to handle other top tier characters (emphasis on MK, 50:50 there. The MK's are being stubborn with 55:45, just read the matchup details in thier thread, you'll see). Sure IC give him some problems, but realisticly, you just have to play really gay and really slow against them, and the match-up goes from 35-65 (his lowest match-up btw) to almost 50-50 because eventually Nana will run off and u can fight 1v1 in which case the advantage is pretty much all Falco's favor. Overall Falco's a beast, he's right where he should be. Third seems to high, but anything fifth or below just doesn't sound right IMO. Feel free to disagree with this all you like, this is just my opinion, but I'm going to stand by it.

 

[DMG]

DJ I am talking solely about when you want to kill with those characters. Avoiding being killed is a DEFENSIVE aspect of a character. Trying to kill someone is an OFFENSIVE aspect of a character. I'm just saying Hey, when Shiek wants to kill someone, I think she can do a better job than Sonic. Whether it be with a DACUS, a grab release into Usmash/DACUS, ground locks into Dsmash/Usmash, Ftilt to Usmash, etc.


Zzgashi you are a pretty good troll man. Either that, or you are on some Hyper Falco Meatride train from Hell lol.

"Falco vs IC's is almost 50-50 if you just Nana runs and then you fight Popo AWESOME oh and btw Falco's worst matchup is only 65:35 even though realistically he can make it almost 50-50, so IDK why I am calling it a 65:35 matchup Lolololz OH AND FALCO WOULD BE BETTER OR AS GOOD AS MK IF HE COULD RECOVER WELL"

Get that OUTTA HERE son. Falco could not even come close to TOUCHING the level MK is at, even if he was given a great recovery. MK can plank him ALL DAY and there's not a darn thing he can do about it. Can Falco plank people? Huh? NOOOOOOOPE. lol.

In my opinion you would be foolhardy to believe Falco is that good or could be that good with the tweak you mentioned, seeing as how he doesn't have nearly the same or better tools as MK. Good day sir.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Music and Texture hacks are allowed.

Are you serious? Music and texture hacks don't affect the gameplay at all. Why would you make that comparison?

This is all perfectly viable adjustments that were bad ideas to begin with that people avoid just because "it's a hack, so it must be bad".

That's not why they avoid them.

 

[xDD-Master]

Wario is more like 4 or 5.

DDD last of A than first of B.

Other than that: Good List.

 

[Tristan_win]

low range land fair/nair, bad recovery, no escape mechanism, no invicible frame attacks....

Hey now, Sheik Fair does not have bad range, escape mechanism sheik nair can count as that with it's hit box on frame 2, sonic up B doesn't get invincible frames for quite a while if I recall correctly, and no invincible frame attacks? Someone is forgetting sheik third best kill move, vanish. Which by the way can't be shield grabbed by anyone but sonic if aimed away from opponent and is unpublishable for some characters.

 

[Chuee]

I play all 5 smash games.

*maniacal laugher*

???
I can't say this is a timely manner for an updated list.....

Anyway, why is:

Zelda 3rd worst? I thought she was better than Jiggs, Yoshi, and Samus i this game.

Ike below Lucas? Did Lucas learn to work around the grab release nonense??

Sheik not higher?

Did Ike learn to work around mk?

 

[Yonder]

Also, Mario's right next to Falcon? Really? So Mario's being said to be almost as bad as Falcon? Bull...Falcon didn't even deserve the rise anyways above samus and puff, His priority is so god awful that most of his attacks are beaten with ease. All he has is mobility and jab, virtually nothing else.

 

[Jupz]

Also, Mario's right next to Falcon? Really? So Mario's being said to be almost as bad as Falcon? Bull...Falcon didn't even deserve the rise anyways above samus and puff, His priority is so god awful that most of his attacks are beaten with ease. All he has is mobility and jab, virtually nothing else.

I agree with this post. Falcon should be second or third worst IMO.

 

[.Marik]

But then you have players like Ally, showing Falcon can capitalize somewhat on what limited potential he has.

The same can't really be said for Triforce Tier.

 

[Browny]

DJ I am talking solely about when you want to kill with those characters. Avoiding being killed is a DEFENSIVE aspect of a character. Trying to kill someone is an OFFENSIVE aspect of a character. I'm just saying Hey, when Shiek wants to kill someone, I think she can do a better job than Sonic. Whether it be with a DACUS, a grab release into Usmash/DACUS, ground locks into Dsmash/Usmash, Ftilt to Usmash, etc.

Read every single matchup thread on these forums. Notice how unless it involves wario or metaknight, there is almost no mention EVER of ability to avoid KO moves. In a game where people are dumb and run at each other blindly, sonics KO ability goes up. when people run away, his KO ability goes down while the enemies KO ability against him plummets to the floor (vs many characters, obvious exceptions like vs Lucario lol).

Hence why I believe MU threads here should NEVER be trusted as a source of anything other than lulz, which they are quite good at mind you. I believe Sonic has an uncanny ability to turn matchups more towards his favour if he is very cautious and doesnt make stupid mistakes, more so than any other character besides MK, quite easily doable vs many of the cast inlcuding MK and Snake.

You cant rate it as a defensive option since its almost never considered in MU threads. look at that character mesh thing. hurrrr its a good idea, yeah except the part where its missing 50% of entire gameplay. Defensive characters dominate brawl, as such why does it matter in the slightest who can KO more effectively when you are never going to land that attack against characters that matter. Sure Sonic doesnt matter, but if you cant beat them, join them, you will be a FAR better character for it.

 

[zeldspazz]

Btw this is a monstrosity. Although I love the fact that hyrule tier is the most epic thing to happen to a tier list, Ganondorf should be in G Tier alone. I say we drop Zelda and Link to H tier and leave Ganon in his G tier alone where he belongs. G tier should be reserved for ganondorf and ganondorf alone. How could the Sbr be so dumb

 

[Red Arremer]

Also, Mario's right next to Falcon? Really? So Mario's being said to be almost as bad as Falcon? Bull...Falcon didn't even deserve the rise anyways above samus and puff, His priority is so god awful that most of his attacks are beaten with ease. All he has is mobility and jab, virtually nothing else.

You apparently don't know what Falcon is capable of. If you really think his priority is any issue, then you should stop living in early 2009.

 

[zeldspazz]

If bad priority was an issue then why wouldn't it be now. His prioriy didn't magically get better. The only thing that happened to CF is a certain top level player uses him for low tiers. And hype. The tier list IMO is really just Super Smash Bros Hype List

 

[Browny]

Youre right, we dont know what falcon is capable of.

Possibly because weve never seen it happen, ever. *HINTHINT*

 

[Albert.]

oh my god

at scrubs and trolls in this thread LOL

 

[Red Arremer]

If bad priority was an issue then why wouldn't it be now. His prioriy didn't magically get better. The only thing that happened to CF is a certain top level player uses him for low tiers. And hype. The tier list IMO is really just Super Smash Bros Hype List

His priority is not an issue because Falcon shouldn't be played aggressively. Of course, if you do play aggressively and rush in to your enemy, then his priority probably will be an issue for you. But that's not how you should play Falcon. Like, not at all.

I know that many many Falcon players think that playing Falcon needs to look flashy and "manly", but unfortunately, Falcon simply isn't like he was in Melee, and became the exact opposite.