The Official BBR Tier List v4 -> Sonic's HA Stall is NOT beaten by spot dodge!!!!!!!!

[zeldspazz]

Yeah about ROB. I feel like the main reasons he went down are

1) Metaknight MU
2) Underrep

Thoughts?

 

[Asdioh]

I just noticed, why the hell is Kirby that low.

Because he's been too high all this time, like I've been trying to tell people for about a year :/

So getting away from the more obvious stuff (Hyrule tier), would someone care to explain how and why Pit made his jump? Did the SBR finally figure out how Godlike his down b is?

How godlike is his down b?



Also, can anyone tell me what redeeming qualities Zelda has? All I've heard is "she's not that bad" from one side and then "she's bad and this is why: ______" (mostly from DMG) on the other side, and quite frankly "she's bad" combined with no tournament results (that I know of at least) are more convincing.

So really, what about her is good? She can "force approaches" with her ridiculously easy to avoid projectile, I guess. Her neutral B has invincibility frames. Other than that, it's been said that her smashes can be SDI'd and stuff, so what makes her better than third worst?


Unless you can tell me something good about her, I'll continue to believe that Link is (significantly) better than her :/

Yes, I'm talking to YOU!

 

[Clai]

Look at this, the new tier is out, was not expecting this. Instead of my proposed manly tier which has only Falcon and Ganondorf, we get the Hyrule tier, with Zelda, Link and Ganondorf? I'll take it, but I really have no idea why Falcon rose so much, since shieldcamping and not falling for Falcon's speed essentially destroy him. So what if Ally beasts with him in tournaments, he's one of the best players in the world and nobody he plays knows how to fight Falcon correctly.

Outside of MK having his own tier, which is only SCREAMING for idiot pro-banners (I'm not implying that pro-banners are idiots, I'm talking about idiots that don't know anything but want MK banned because they don't like him) to flood discussions about how he should be banned, I don't see any grave injustices about the list. I'm betting that it's more of a product of the BBR ruleset being faulty. Once they get rid of scrooging and start enforcing stalling bans more, MK will be in his proper place and people can stop circumventing the rules in order to win.

 

[zeldspazz]

She has none. Deal with it. *shrugs*

Oh and DownB. I guess.

Spoiler

Ill try being more serious after this

 

[wikid578]

game and watch y did he drop?

 

[Asdioh]

Does anyone else think G&W is a good character until you learn his capabilities, then you just play carefully and he's really not that hard?

For example, on paper, G&W should DESTROY Kirby, with his incredible priority advantage and amazing kill power, but in an actual match, Kirby can maneuver around him pretty safely and it basically becomes "the better player wins" you know?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ROB went down because he isn't a good character.

 

[Suspect]

kirby mains are not playing right, they should be bairing their way to top tier

 

[Stockfield]

Yeah about ROB. I feel like the main reasons he went down are

1) Metaknight MU
2) Underrep

Thoughts?

I feel that metaknight is the main reason. With so many at high level nobody really wants to main him anymore.

I always switch to snake when up against metaknight, everyone else I use my ROB.

 

[BSP]

Does anyone else think G&W is a good character until you learn his capabilities, then you just play carefully and he's really not that hard?

For example, on paper, G&W should DESTROY Kirby, with his incredible priority advantage and amazing kill power, but in an actual match, Kirby can maneuver around him pretty safely and it basically becomes "the better player wins" you know?

Yes, what he said. All he's got is a wall of priority, and once you learn to get around it, he's not that bad.

He might drop more in the future (really early prediction, I know), but he's really a straightforward character.

 

[Karcist]

Because he's been too high all this time, like I've been trying to tell people for about a year :/



How godlike is his down b?



Also, can anyone tell me what redeeming qualities Zelda has? All I've heard is "she's not that bad" from one side and then "she's bad and this is why: ______" (mostly from DMG) on the other side, and quite frankly "she's bad" combined with no tournament results (that I know of at least) are more convincing.

So really, what about her is good? She can "force approaches" with her ridiculously easy to avoid projectile, I guess. Her neutral B has invincibility frames. Other than that, it's been said that her smashes can be SDI'd and stuff, so what makes her better than third worst?


Unless you can tell me something good about her, I'll continue to believe that Link is (significantly) better than her :/

Yes, I'm talking to YOU!

I find her d smash to be an excellent KO move.

 

[DMG]

I'm betting that it's more of a product of the BBR ruleset being faulty. Once they get rid of scrooging and start enforcing stalling bans more, MK will be in his proper place and people can stop circumventing the rules in order to win.

Circumventing the rules? On the contrary. Under the current ruleset, those tactics are completely allowed. Planking and Scrooging aren't circumventing anything, as nothing is in place for them to circumvent in the first place lol.

Besides that, what is a good way to ban stuff like planking or scrooging? IDC was something quite easy to ban, its basically "Hey, don't extend his Dimensional Cape". Planking, it's not so clear cut. "Hey, you can't grab the edge". That would be unreasonable. What about "Hey, don't grab the edge more than 2 times." and so on and so forth. If you aim for a LGL, you are coming up with a subjective number, and the rule might not even achieve what it needs to in the first place. What if planking is so strong, that limiting it to 50 Ledge Grabs basically does nothing to it? What about 40? What about 30?

Basically, you run into the issue that if you set it too high, that there's no point in having the rule in the first place, or that if you set it too low, that you hinder normal gameplay where grabbing the edge is a necessity basically.\


Edit: G&W ***** Kirby IMO. Certainly if he is allowed to plank.

 

[Red Arremer]

I find her d smash to be an excellent KO move.

Her DSmash has pretty much no range, though.

 

[Jdietz43]

As a man who legitimately attempted to main Zelda for a long while, I can attest that she needed to drop. That far? I'm not sure, but she did need to go down. She suffers from what I like to refer to as "Fox Syndrome". People see the apparent pros of using her, but can't overcome the other overwhelming flaws that eventually add up to losses. As much as everyone (including me) would like to see those pros exploited to the maximum, no one ever consistently has, which eventually leads to the conclusion that they can't be successfully exploited. In all reality there should be a Sheik/Zelda placement on the tiers, but that has never been fully explored. I can safely claim that at at least a semi-pro level a combination usually succeeds more than one or the other solo (especially if Zelda is the one in question). However even combined they probably rank quite close to where Sheik already is anyway. Thats just my two cents. I'll just shed a silent tear and go back to my Luigi that can kill at 50% now.

 

[Albert.]

I love how everyone is all surprised about Zelda dropping when PAGES and pages of the Tier List v3 discussion thread were dedicated to "zelda is actually bad, she should drop!!" and then Zelda mains would come in... and agree.

......

 

[Jdietz43]

I love how everyone is all surprised about Zelda dropping when PAGES and pages of the Tier List v3 discussion thread were dedicated to "zelda is actually bad, she should drop!!" and then Zelda mains would come in... and agree.

......

Is too true. Especially since I basicly just did the exact same thing above you XD

EDIT: Or maybe it's all just one HUGE mindgame!

 

[Ninja Kirby Nick!]

kirby mains are not playing right, they should be bairing their way to top tier

Most of us are really rocked by this.

Kirby moved down 3!? I thought he would rise at least above R.O.B...And looks like I'm right about that .

 

[Raffi815]

LOL Tier Triforce!
Wisdom, Courage, and Power.
Ironically power is last xD

 

[Clai]

Circumventing the rules? On the contrary. Under the current ruleset, those tactics are completely allowed. Planking and Scrooging aren't circumventing anything, as nothing is in place for them to circumvent in the first place lol.

Besides that, what is a good way to ban stuff like planking or scrooging? IDC was something quite easy to ban, its basically "Hey, don't extend his Dimensional Cape". Planking, it's not so clear cut. "Hey, you can't grab the edge". That would be unreasonable. What about "Hey, don't grab the edge more than 2 times." and so on and so forth. If you aim for a LGL, you are coming up with a subjective number, and the rule might not even achieve what it needs to in the first place. What if planking is so strong, that limiting it to 50 Ledge Grabs basically does nothing to it? What about 40? What about 30?

Basically, you run into the issue that if you set it too high, that there's no point in having the rule in the first place, or that if you set it too low, that you hinder normal gameplay where grabbing the edge is a necessity basically.\


Edit: G&W ***** Kirby IMO. Certainly if he is allowed to plank.

Stalling is currently defined as "delibrately avoiding any and all contact so that one may make the game unplayable." Usually moves or strategies that render a character invunlnerable (such as IDC or Melee Jigglypuff stalling with Rising Pound) are considered stalling and banned as such. With gliding under the stage, MK (and Pit) are completely unreachable, as nothing can hit them while they're moving under the stage. They can do this for eight minutes with ease, and there'd be nothing that your opponent could do about it. That, to me, makes them invulnerable and thus ban-worthy. Banning scrooging is easy and clear cut as well. Gliding under the stage with a glide that doesn't put you in free fall afterwards (like MK's Shuttle Loop, people do edgehog Shuttle Loop and we can't just bone MK's for that) is banned. Easy, discrete, and much more manageable because opposing characters can tell when someone's about to glide under the stage, edgehog their glide attack, and then punish the glider for it.

Planking's a completely different matter, but I think if we start by confining them to one side of the stage by banning scrooging, then that will go a long way in figuring out how to deal with that mess.

 

[zeldspazz]

Also, can anyone tell me what redeeming qualities Zelda has? All I've heard is "she's not that bad" from one side and then "she's bad and this is why: ______" (mostly from DMG) on the other side, and quite frankly "she's bad" combined with no tournament results (that I know of at least) are more convincing.

So really, what about her is good? She can "force approaches" with her ridiculously easy to avoid projectile, I guess. Her neutral B has invincibility frames. Other than that, it's been said that her smashes can be SDI'd and stuff, so what makes her better than third worst?


Unless you can tell me something good about her, I'll continue to believe that Link is (significantly) better than her :/

Yes, I'm talking to YOU!

Alright actually Im going to answer this. Because I feel like it and shes the only character I feel comfortable discussion

She has a really hard time approaching, but approaching with her is not impossible. She has an above average airspeed and an average airdodge, coupled with a long lasting nair. This makes her pretty decenting at weaving in and out and can try to get some mindgame action. By means of ground, her dash attack has some nice range and comes out on frame 5, and puts them above Zelda which is what is wanted. Her grab has lol startup time, but its so slow that sometimes the opponent spotdodges too early and gets grabbed anyway. This is good because it has long range and not too much cooldown if whiffed. Bair can also be a semi decent approach if they arents expecting it, and Fair has some ok range. Sometimes at low percentages their soutspot can string into some attacks.

Her ground game is way better than people give her credit for. Her jab is highly, highly underrated, its has immensley slow cooldown and great range and cant clang with attacks. Its her best move for sheild pressure, especially against characters like DDD and IC. If she can get inside she *****, because she has a 5 frame dtilt that gives frame advantages on every character at ~40% (it varies by weight) and on big guys it even leads into guaranteed Fairs/Bairs. Her Dsmash is a great 4 frame GTFO move and although it can be teched on reaction it still gets the job done because of its speed, and its trajectory helps set up gimps. Fsmash is easily SDI'd but its range is enormous and can be spaced to only the tip hits. Ftilt is slow but is excellent at sheild poking and on certain characters like GaW it can give situational stage spikes while they are hanging on the ledge. Utilt is massively strong and hits on all sides of her. Usmash is very hard SDI out of except for a few characters like Marth, and racks up some awesome damage. Her grab game sucks, Ill leave it at that.

Her air game thought to very limited has actually grown a little complex. Nair is a good move, and it would be excellent if it had more range. If you connect with all the hits except the last one on a grounded opponent it leads into a guaranteed (meaning frame advantage) move like LK, Usmash, Fsmash, etc. Uair kills at insane percentages and is really safe and great for punishing airdodges. It is also being researched now that Nair has a hitbox that sends the opponent down like Ivy's nair. Dair is another very undairated (see what I did there ^^) move. It has a very small sweetspot but its so strong when it connects, and the sourspot can gimp characters like Mario and Peach with bad vertical recoverys. Fair and Bair are self explainatory, although an intersting is you can buffer a crossover LK from if you sweetspot a sheild, meaning if the opponent sheilds an Fair her momentum and airspeed is enough to aim a sweetspotted Bair if they're slow. Fair can be sweetspotted on tall characters from a shorthop and Bair is fast enough to be able to hit come out twice in a shorthop.

Her special are pretty trash. NL is an awful reflector but it has its uses. Its excellent for punishing rolls when they are predictable and can be used for a Reverse NL Momentum Cancel, which gives her about 10-15% more to her survivability AND saves her second jump. It also has invinsibilty frames. It would be pretty legit if it lasted longer and had less cooldown. Her Dins is trash, although it can compete with the camping from Pika, DDD, and IC. Generally it can be used to pressure recovering opponents. Her recovery move has some nice distance, but its easily punished both in startup and cooldown, so your best bet is to try and sweetspot the ledge. DownB is legit, I would consider using it.

She gets camped pretty hard. Her reflector is trash but is definitely usable against characters like Pikachu. However, the player must learn how to PS and then she isnt camped harder than really many other characters in low tier, and she has her nice airspeed to boot. Dins prior to popular belief can camp a couple characters, i honestly dont care what you say and am not going to argue it honestly.

She is amazing at killing. Her dtilt leads into EVERY kill move, comes out on frame 5, and has good range. Her Usmash, Fsmash, Dsmash, Uair, Fair, Bair, Dair, Utilt, and Ftilt at high percentages all kill, which can be pretty intimidating if you have just switched from Sheik.

So in a nutshell:

Pros
-Excellent killing
-Very good kill setup
-Good Ground Game
-Good Sheild Pokes
-Fsmash has is a nice spacing move
-Has moves safe on sheild
-Above Average airspeed
-Excellent Defensive Game

Cons
-Limited Approach
-Has a hard time dealing with camping
-Bad Grab
-Bad Reflector
-Limited Air Game
-Punishable Recovery
-Bad Height to Weight Ratio
-Hard time staying on Defensive
-Slow Ground Speed
-Bad Projectile
-Little Representation



Her Cons are worse and outweigh her pros, and shes closer to where she should be on this list than the last, but dont be fooled. She actually does have some nice properties and you will get ***** if you dont know the MU.

 

[Asdioh]

Alright, that was a good post, thanks. And I'm not saying I would never lose to a Zelda because she's THAT bad, I'm sure I'd lose to Zeldas that know the matchup more than I do, but that's the case with just about any low tier: don't know the matchup, you're in for a surprise.

Who do you think Zelda is BETTER than? Even with all of what you said, I still think Link is better. I'm not gonna list all his pros/cons since I'm lazy and people probably know them by now.

You think she's better than Jigglypuff? Captain Falcon? Anyone else?




Unrelated, I looked at this tier list again, and I believe Bowser and Mario need to switch places. In a short summary: Bowser sucks and Mario doesn't. :[

 

[zeldspazz]

From what I know, Id say she's better than Ganon, CF, Link, and Samus, and is about even with Jiggs (Jiggs is probably better though). Id put her mid-low F tier on this list.

 

[Asdioh]

I keep forgetting about Samus. So fun to play, but too floaty and slow-feeling, not to mention the blatant lack of power on most of her formerly strong moves

 

[zeldspazz]

Samus's Zair is her saving grace.

 

[tazmohanna]

slow n stedy wins the race, yoshi's just guna keep climbing

 

[DMG]

Stalling is currently defined as "delibrately avoiding any and all contact so that one may make the game unplayable." Usually moves or strategies that render a character invunlnerable (such as IDC or Melee Jigglypuff stalling with Rising Pound) are considered stalling and banned as such. With gliding under the stage, MK (and Pit) are completely unreachable, as nothing can hit them while they're moving under the stage. They can do this for eight minutes with ease, and there'd be nothing that your opponent could do about it. That, to me, makes them invulnerable and thus ban-worthy. Banning scrooging is easy and clear cut as well. Gliding under the stage with a glide that doesn't put you in free fall afterwards (like MK's Shuttle Loop, people do edgehog Shuttle Loop and we can't just bone MK's for that) is banned. Easy, discrete, and much more manageable because opposing characters can tell when someone's about to glide under the stage, edgehog their glide attack, and then punish the glider for it.

Planking's a completely different matter, but I think if we start by confining them to one side of the stage by banning scrooging, then that will go a long way in figuring out how to deal with that mess.

For scrooging, people can try to hit them on the other end. Characters like Sonic run fast enough to get to the other side, and attempt to intercept them. You could also pick Falco and shoot lasers under a stage (whether it be through dropping down and using Laser, or DJing and using it when you need, and using Upb to get back to the stage). They are not rendered invincible while doing it.

Besides, I think a rule that "you can only glide under a stage if you are using a glide that is "vulnerable"" is silly. That's basically not admitting that flying under the stage is too powerful, or that you want to selectively choose and ban aspects of gliding under stages that you find "gay".


What if the character glides under the stage, crosses the stage "halfway point", stops the glide, and goes back to the original edge it departed from? What if they go all the way that they basically touch the edge without grabbing it, and then go back under to the original edge?

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi didn't seem to move anywhere while Mario and Zelda dropped. I'm not gonna ask about Zelda, but could you explain why Mario had such a drop that deserved Yoshi to be above him? I'm mainly curious to hear you guys thoughts.

 

[Kinzer]

I felt like this needed to get across:

If the signature does not show up, if anybody thinks that Ness rose/deserve to go up because of FOW, please stop with that mindset. He picked up MK/ICs to have an easier time winning/placing.

Smart kid, if you ask me.

That's all, please continue with your bickering/trolling/etc.

 

[da K.I.D.]

With gliding under the stage, MK (and Pit) are completely unreachable, as nothing can hit them while they're moving under the stage. They can do this for eight minutes with ease, and there'd be nothing that your opponent could do about it. That, to me, makes them invulnerable and thus ban-worthy.

Incorrect, sir. many things CAN hit them in this process. sonic can run all the way to the other side of the stage and drop a spring offstage, and pikachu can shoot thunderjolts that will curl around the stage and hit people that ride the edges of the stage with their glides. its just that most of these options probably wont work, but saying that they are completely unreachable is blatently untrue.

Banning scrooging is easy and clear cut as well. Gliding under the stage with a glide that doesn't put you in free fall afterwards (like MK's Shuttle Loop, people do edgehog Shuttle Loop and we can't just bone MK's for that) is banned.

Do you know how glides work? most glides only put people into free fall when they are initated on the last jump, so that means its against the rules to initiate a glide on anything but the last jump, which means you are forced to exaust all your other jumps, if you wish to start glides. Which is honestly dumb and arbitrary.

Easy, discrete, and much more manageable because opposing characters can tell when someone's about to glide under the stage, edgehog their glide attack, and then punish the glider for it.

Its easy concrete and simple because there was no real thought put into it...

 

[SFA Smiley]

Does anyone else think G&W is a good character until you learn his capabilities, then you just play carefully and he's really not that hard?

For example, on paper, G&W should DESTROY Kirby, with his incredible priority advantage and amazing kill power, but in an actual match, Kirby can maneuver around him pretty safely and it basically becomes "the better player wins" you know?

This is precisely his flaw, there isn't much to adapt with when using GW, he sort of has cut and paste ways of dealing with other characters however other characters keep evolving and he doesn't have a lot of room to. He's inherently awesome BUT when you figure him out he;s so basic.

I don't know about the other characters in B but seeing him at the bottom of B doesn't seem right, However I don't think it's that he's getting worse I think the other characters are just getting better. Unlike other characters where people saw potential and realized that it wasn't as much as they thought, i don't think it's that GW is a case where you realize "Oh he's not that great after all" I think it's just everybody else is getting better and he isn't going anywhere as fast.

Shame, even when i'm playing GW i realize there isn't much depth to him

 

[Kokaloo]

lol kinzer he didnt drop him completely
and im amazed that zss didnt go anywhere

 

[moyshe]

Yoshi didn't seem to move anywhere while Mario and Zelda dropped. I'm not gonna ask about Zelda, but could you explain why Mario had such a drop that deserved Yoshi to be above him? I'm mainly curious to hear you guys thoughts.

Yeah I dont agree with this either. Mario is a much better character than Yoshi.

 

[Kinzer]

lol kinzer he didnt drop him completely

Hmm...?

That's funny, last time I saw, Freddie hasn't been playing him in the finals locally. Kyle (usually who makes it to GFs) probably hast he Ness MU on lockdown, and for Freddie that'd be a waste.

Is it out of state maybe, where nobody is as conditioned to Ness as the vegassmash community?

If that's it, then that's just more laughable.

 

[*JuriHan*]

why Kirby dropped:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9675734&postcount=188

 

[Kokaloo]

Hmm...?

That's funny, last time I saw, Freddie hasn't been playing him in the finals locally. Kyle (usually who makes it to GFs) probably hast he Ness MU on lockdown, and for Freddie that'd be a waste.

Is it out of state maybe, where nobody is as conditioned to Ness as the vegassmash community?

If that's it, then that's just more laughable.

just because he's not playing him in the finals doesnt mean that he dropped him completely
ICs VS Falco is in ICs favor, and he obviously does know to play to win
Freddie hasnt gone oos in a while though ;o;

 

[Kinzer]

just because he's not playing him in the finals doesnt mean that he dropped him completely
ICs VS Falco is in ICs favor, and he obviously does know to play to win
Freddie hasnt gone oos in a while though ;o;

No, it tells you that in order to claim victory he needs to use a good character. Are you saying because he beat people that are worse that it has any meaning? There's a reason why the people who don't do as good don't place as well.

True, I never did say that FOW didn't know how to play to win though . In fact, the whole point of not using Ness shows that he's losing his scrub mentality, which is a good thing.

Which surprises me more because apparently some people think Ness went up only because of the kid when he hasn't been (able to?) do much.

 

[Kokaloo]

No, it tells you that in order to claim victory he needs to use a good character. Are you saying because he beat people that are worse that it has any meaning? There's a reason why the people who don't do as good don't place as well.

True, I never did say that FOW didn't know how to play to win though . In fact, the whole point of not using Ness shows that he's losing his scrub mentality, which is a good thing.

Which surprises me more because apparently some people think Ness went up only because of the kid when he hasn't been (able to?) do much.

thats their assumption then O:
but yeah

 

[phi1ny3]

Imma troll my own character ala Timbers until he drops lower than he was on the last tier list >:3

Spoiler

Why are you guys rating a character so high that doesn't have anything faster than frame 5 move on the ground, and an SDI-able dair? You can powershield that AS all dai, fsmash isn't getting any faster lollz. What a garbage tier char, should be lower than CF because I hear the Ally v. Lucario MU is 80:20 Ally's favor

Lucario ez bad

 

[DMG]

Yay I am glad he dropped Ness lol. Not cause I hate Ness, but like once you make the switch from a lower tiered character to a higher tiered character, you feel this sense of "Hey, I am making the smarter choice, I feel good." It's like me moving on to MK, you feel almost worked up and enthusiastic and ready to get better lol

 

[Kinzer]

thats their assumption then O:
but yeah

That's what I'm trying to fix. >_<