The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Furbs]

A couple of things, Furbs...

-It doesn't matter if Lucario has a shield poke or not. Yoshi's shield is unpokable. Besides, why are you shielding anyways?

-Yoshi does indeed outprioirtize Olimar. His b-air and d-smash just tear his Pikmin apart. Olimar has surprisingly low priority to his attacks because the Pikmin's hit-box is the same as their hurt-box, so disjointed attacks would cut them to ribbons.

what i meant to say is a turtle-like attack. honestly something that has multiple hitboxes that stays out for a long time like the turtle, that is my mistake. yeah yoshi can powershield marths B, but with attacks like the turtle it's hard to get the timing right because i swear to god that last hitbox always gets me.

true yoshi can kill the pikmin, but in my experience even if i hit the pikmin his attack still usually goes through. I don't know much about the different kinds of pikmin and the mechanics behind each one. but thats for later, the point was one of the reasons yoshi does well against olimar is because of his speed, which is true. it was a comparison, I don't know much about olimar but I know that one of olimars greatest strengths is his plethora of good moves which yoshi beats in terms of speed.

 

[Ryusuta]

we need some lucario is this thread, should i post sumthin there? also i cant bair him =[ so much range on fsmash, really hard the first time you play one it caught me off guard that is was so hard doin stuff

That's actually a good idea. I'd like to hear what the Lucario board has to say about this matchup, as well.

*Gives Furbs a handshake and a pat on the back*

No harm, no foul, man. We're cool.

 

[Furbs]

i asked Rocket trainer to add some input
but it won't be till later

yoshi bros for life

 

[Browny]

yes lucarios aerials lag when they land... thats why you dont use the ones that do? his nair has extremely low lag and his dair has 0 lag, since you cant land when using it. lucario can SH fair-dair, then actually jump away without having to land in the same approach or simply land the nair behind yoshi to follow with a utilt (frame 5) to make his aerial approaches very safe against anyone who doesnt have a DDD style utilt to hit way behind them, quickly.

there really is no reason for lucario to put himself in a laggy situation

 

[Lycan_Rawr]

- Lucario's recovery is kinda bad, Up-b doesn't have too much range on it, doesn't hurt people (Very good to know especially if you're edgehogging), and has start-up lag. In short lucario while off the stage isn't too much of a challenge to edgeguard.

=( Up B's our last resort, we're floaty with a nice double jump, and it's still not uber horrible. It's range is fine especially when combined with our awesome ledge snap, we can curve it, and wall cling out of it too. It's true our recovery isn't great, but I think you might find it's harder to edge guard us then you think.

Our Fsmash also out ranges everything you have IIRC. Meh, I'm not confident enough to offer anything else really.

 

[Browny]

oh yeah another thing about recovery. lucario doesnt only have high aerial mobility, he falls extremely slow. its a rare situation indeed when lucario is ever forced to even use his upb to recover. most of the time if you DI an attack upwards properly that doesnt KO, you can simply float back to the stage without even having to use the mid-air jump. yoshis attacks send Lucario away at quite a low angle so that probably wont happen however honestly, i find myself needed to use ES maybe 2-3 times per match and have plenty of replays of games where i never even needed to use it once, his aerial DI is that good

 

[Furbs]

yeah never take lucario to yoshi's island because he can just wall cling to recover, he can do this on FD too right?

sorry if i made it seem terrible, but compared to most of the other cast he is a bit safer to edge guard
Dair works really well to edge guard him though

actually I'm thinking maybe we should get some vids up if that would help at all?

 

[spudzalot]

I would give this to Lucario 7 : 3.

It just seems like every approach Yoshi dishes out Lucario has an answer for it. If you try to come from above Lucario has his Utilt that has good range and can easily be comboed into other moves. You can use Yoshi Bomb but probably once before the player realizes they should watch out for it. Then if you try egg spam he can just charge up his B and shield every time an egg comes his way. Running in for a grab or an attack from the ground will usually get a Fsmash in the face (I never seem to be able to spot dodge that either).

Also I went against a Lucario at a tournament last week and got eaten alive. I could not kill Lucario and like what someone else said it doesnt help when he gains so much power from high damage. Also I got comboed to death the moment I respawned. I would go in for an attack then be shield grabbed thrown then launched into a string of attacks, I was suddenly at 50 damage before even realizing it.

One thing I find effective is using Yoshi's sideB to get closer but then again the lag afterwards may be too devastating. I think the only way Yoshi can pull out on top is to use some serious mind games. And get good hits in when the player messes up.

Lucario is a jerk.

 

[tedward2000]

yeah never take lucario to yoshi's island because he can just wall cling to recover, he can do this on FD too right?

sorry if i made it seem terrible, but compared to most of the other cast he is a bit safer to edge guard
Dair works really well to edge guard him though

actually I'm thinking maybe we should get some vids up if that would help at all?

Actually, Yes, He can recover on the lower section of FD.
But he can recover on most vertical surfaces.

When I say vertical, that includes those little 4 pixel edges on like FD and Frigate. Rare, but possible.

Yes, Lucario can wall cling pixels, and yoshi can be ledge-hogging which in the situation would kill lucairo. He can A) Aim for the lower section of FD and be safe or...B) Some how land above Yoshi on the same ledge, wall-clinging pixels.

Don't think he's going to go for the pixel grab, because I can't name a single lucario that would, when the FD lower part is much much easier to land on.

oh, and side bit. Lucario's D-air and Bair can ledge spike.

FP can grab thru egg shield and roll (maybe roll??).

-t2

 

[Ryusuta]

yeah never take lucario to yoshi's island because he can just wall cling to recover, he can do this on FD too right?

Yes he can, but admittedly, it's a bit hard to get the angle right. (For me, anyway.)

actually I'm thinking maybe we should get some vids up if that would help at all?

I think there was a topic awhile ago dedicated to a very noteworthy Yoshi/Lucario match video series. I don't remember who was using Yoshi, but I know Azen was using Lucario. Anyone else remember that one?

 

[bigman40]

May have been Yoster using Yoshi if I'm right.

 

[Ryusuta]

Yeah, that sounds right. It's been a few months, though, so it's hard to tell. I remember that those were some pretty good videos to demonstrate what Lucario can do against Yoshi.

 

[bigman40]

I think the basis is that Yoshi will have to do a hit and run strategy. As it seems that whenever you're close, and can't keep something going for you, then you're just gonna get some nasty damage to the face. After you get far away, then you can Egg him until he chooses to spam AS. I might be wrong though seeing as how I only have Lucario spammers to play against (I play lucario on the side though, so I know what he's capable of).

 

[Sharky]

It was Yoster, Orion. =)

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If you dinos are looking for vids, I've got some. Or rather, my Sensei does and said I could share them... >> he plays a Yoshi semi-regularly. Might help you out. *Shrug*


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtiTrTQuRAc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxSWm4t_ImI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGUBm98t8kI

 

[Naucitos]

Yoshi's problems KOing REALLY don't help against lucario, who gets stronger when damaged.
I don't know what some people were talking about that yoshis attacks send people on a downward trajectory, i REALLY wish this were true :s
It might also be worth noting that almost any time you are FORCED to use your up b to recover, it's pretty easy to intercept it with Nair, if not Dair, although in brawl the situation comes up much less often

Also, yoshi's island seems like a terrible stage, not only because of the wall recovery, but also the high ceiling very much weaken all of yoshi's ko options, all of which help lucario survive longer, and thus deal more damage

I've always managed to beat out lucario spammers with egg toss, and edge eggs are unpunishable by the sphere, and can force the lucario to approach if he wants to do anything productive

In response to brownie, i'm not sure why his nair matters as much in this matchup, since i'm fairly sure that both yoshis bair and ftilt outrange it. The dair is painful, but ETS usually outmaneuvers it and gets damage in during the fairly long attack animation that you can't evade from. Almost any time lucario is in the air makes it safe to slide away and throw eggs,which pretty much stops most of his approaches

Also, just to be nitpicky, you can land with the dair, but not in situations that would come up unless you try, so its unimportant to matchups XD

 

[Snowstalker]

Do you plan to update the chart with Dedede being 4.5?

 

[Mmac]

Do you plan to update the chart with Dedede being 4.5?

I'll update it every two discussions. After Lucario, I'll update Dedede and Lucario's new ratio and move on to Link

 

[Timbers]

but compared to most of the other cast he is a bit safer to edge guard

eat aurasphere

I've always managed to beat out lucario spammers with egg toss, and edge eggs are unpunishable by the sphere, and can force the lucario to approach if he wants to do anything productive

In response to brownie, i'm not sure why his nair matters as much in this matchup, since i'm fairly sure that both yoshis bair and ftilt outrange it. The dair is painful, but ETS usually outmaneuvers it and gets damage in during the fairly long attack animation that you can't evade from. Almost any time lucario is in the air makes it safe to slide away and throw eggs,which pretty much stops most of his approaches

Yes. If Yoshi wanted to he could outcamp Lucario. Not really groundbreaking but it's worth noting. Those eggs have ridiculous priority to them. and have much more maneuverability than aurasphere.

Nair autocancelling was just mentioned because Yoshi is one of the few characters where we can land behind you with a ff nair and not have to worry about any real consequence due to his poor shield/oos options. Honestly not anything to make note of, but I can see how it was introduced here.

But yeah, this matchup is pretty lol in Luc's eyes. I don't really think I need to go much more into it. Yoshi's uair does outrange Luc's dair, so keep that in mind.

People saying that it's easy to edgeguard Lucario's uB, please enlighten me as to what Yoshi has that can possibly knock Lucario out of his midair before even getting him to use his uB?

 

[Ryusuta]

eat aurasphere


Yes. If Yoshi wanted to he could outcamp Lucario. Not really groundbreaking but it's worth noting. Those eggs have ridiculous priority to them. and have much more maneuverability than aurasphere.

It's not an issue of priority or maneuverability, believe me. I've tried to camp good Lucario players too many times to not know how it turns out.

Lucario's Aura Spheres leave him WAY less open than Yoshi's eggs, and he can throw about three baby Aura Spheres per each one egg Yoshi can throw. You get the idea.

 

[Furbs]

ok so, I've went to the Lucario boards to play other players and figure out kmore on the matchup.
if me thinking its a 6:4 is due to rocket trainer or not.

anyways we play a game and he won, VERY close match though
then we play a second game, and RIGHT when i get a full stock ahead.....i get disconnected XD
so i reset the internetz and im gonna have to go back for more matches >.>

I'll make another post hopefully around 10:30-11:30

 

[Naucitos]

Timbers, i said that if he was forced to use it it would be easy to edgeguard, although if i need to be asked, yoshis nair outranges lucarios nair, although i don't think his fair is very helpful

 

[Timbers]

It's not an issue of priority or maneuverability, believe me. I've tried to camp good Lucario players too many times to not know how it turns out.

Lucario's Aura Spheres leave him WAY less open than Yoshi's eggs, and he can throw about three baby Aura Spheres per each one egg Yoshi can throw. You get the idea.

You're pitting one of the slowest moving projectiles against Yoshi's eggs. 3 bas=1 yoshi egg is a huge exaggeration by the way lol. Maybe 2 BAS, but Yoshi's egg is much more versatile and faster than Lucario's BAS. Our projectile isn't made for spamming. It lacks the priority and speed necessary to do so. Comparing both projectiles I'd definitely claim that aurasphere is superior to Yoshi's eggs, but when only comparing the camping aspect of a projectile then I gotta give it to Yoshi. Luc does a better job at controlling space and forcing the enemy in bad positions, not initiating a campwar.

Timbers, i said that if he was forced to use it it would be easy to edgeguard, although if i need to be asked, yoshis nair outranges lucarios nair, although i don't think his fair is very helpful

I was afraid of jumping the gun on this, as I haven't tested it but...I'm fairly certain that Luc's fair alone outranges all of Yoshi's aerials excluding the fair spike. Luc never uses nair offstage.

 

[Naucitos]

no, i meant YOUR fair isn't very helpful XD, yeah, yoshis fair would be the only thing that has a chance, i think.

Edit: When hitting, yoshis eggs are more disruptive than AS, and can often lead into more eggs, yoshi also has the option of edge eggs, which lucario can neither mimic nor stop (Short of going over there, obviously)

 

[Gindler]

I think lucario's Fair is actually quite useful. It does it's job as a stay away from me move.

 

[Sharky]

Lucario's Aura Spheres leave him WAY less open than Yoshi's eggs, and he can throw about three baby Aura Spheres per each one egg Yoshi can throw. You get the idea.

lol, shorthop egg toss over the babies. noooo problemo. =D

 

[Timbers]

Luc's fair is very good, just usually not-so-good when returning to the stage lol. It's better for setting up openings and combos. There are some characters that lack the range to overpower the fair though, Yoshi being one of them. You'd probably be more successful edgeguarding us with eggs than anything.

 

[Gindler]

Yeah that's what I noticed. You'd have to space something ridiculously well to outrange that Fair. I usually either egg toss or egg lay (for kicks) as an edgeguard.

 

[Furbs]

ok so i just spent the last HOUR talking to Milln about the matchup, we pretty much agreed on everything about the matchup

HOWEVER!!
we did figure out a few things

-Ftilt beats lucarios nair and fair.
-Lucario can grab out of yoshis jab combo if timed right.

at highest level of play, or if the lucario is "chill" the lucario will usually come out on top.
It's not impossible for yoshi, but it's a challenge.

my final conclusion is 4:6 lucarios favor,
I also heard from KO kingpin (the yoshi in the vids Milln contacted him) heres his thoughts
[22:30] <TehMilln> KO says it's 6-4
[22:30] <TehMilln> He says it can go even, but Lucario's a *****. especially with Dair.
[22:30] <TehMilln> But yeah
[22:31] <TehMilln> We're both in agreement that Lucario is too beast for Yoshi. >3


is this something we can all agree on?

 

[Ryusuta]

lol, shorthop egg toss over the babies. noooo problemo. =D

And if he alternates short-hopped BASes with grounded ones?

 

[Sharky]

Then he'll still be hit by the egg, and Yoshi can fall after the egg throw and dash/ETS under the shorthopped baby. It's not aurasphere that's the unblockable issue, here.

 

[Poltergust]

Oh, you didn't know? I'm pretty sure that Yoshi's f-smash can go through the Turtle. I've done it plenty of times before.

So... did anyone actually get around to testing this? I mentioned this quite a few pages ago...

 

[Furbs]

ill test it when we get to G+W, im curious though, is yoshi's head disjointed?

 

[bigman40]

I think it is by a small margin. Don't quote me on this though..

 

[Naucitos]

I'm pretty sure yoshis fsmash is not disjointed.

 

[Timbers]

And if he alternates short-hopped BASes with grounded ones?

Eggs do a considerable more amount of damage than aurasphere, and their blast radius is much bigger than that of BAS.

BAS is too slow to camp with, it's generally not a good idea for the Lucario to initiate a spamwar. Pocketing half charge/full charge is a much better idea for the Lucario.

 

[Shiri]

Yoshi's head (not including his nose) has an extremely high chance of being disjoint.

I only put it this way because it was so in the last two games and most of his other invulnerability properties have remained. Without any tools available to determine this 100%, the situation is uncertain, but I do believe Yoshi still has his disjoint attacks from before.

Why is everyone talking about Aura Sphere? I'm surprised more people aren't talking about how annoying Lucario's tilts are; easily the best tools Lucario has in this matchup besides forward smash and down air.

 

[Furbs]

Yoshi's head (not including his nose) has an extremely high chance of being disjoint.

I only put it this way because it was so in the last two games and most of his other invulnerability properties have remained. Without any tools available to determine this 100%, the situation is uncertain, but I do believe Yoshi still has his disjoint attacks from before.

Why is everyone talking about Aura Sphere? I'm surprised more people aren't talking about how annoying Lucario's tilts are; easily the best tools Lucario has in this matchup besides forward smash and down air.

I think we got tilts covered,

they're very annoying, setup for good stuff, but at the same time, yoshi's tilts and jabs are faster, and work more or less to the same effect as lucarios in terms of setups.

as for priority the tilts usually cling

 

[Kitamerby]

At low percents watch out for lucario's forward B because he can chaingrab yoshi up to 30%

Fun fact: You can break out of the Force Palm grabs like a normal grab. Just start mashing buttons as if it was a normal grab below 20% or so if you think he's trying to chain them.

Now lets take a look at Some of lucarios Kill moves at higher percents (120-150ish these are all fresh moves of course)
-Fair
-Dsmash
-Usmash
-Down B

OMG!!!! thats quite a lot of options

Fair I guess could gimp, but it shouldn't ever be outright killing you. O,o
Also, Dsmash, Usmash, and Double Team are rarely used by the common, household Lucario. It's generally believed to be way too slow for a counter, as well as giving most opponents enough time to shield the hit. I'm not sure if Yoshi's slower shield is able to dodge the hit, though. Someone should check. <<

- In the air lucarios moves have a bit of ending lag, you HAVE to capitalize on this, it makes the match a LOT easier.

I'm not too sure about this. I really don't understand how the Lucario would be able to put himself in a position for any "lag" on his moves to be capitalized upon. Fair combos into Dair or Nair, Bair shouldn't be used unless it hits, which it most likely will due to its monstrous hitbox, and it doesn't even really have too much lag even when landing. Uair... If you can punish Uair, the Lucario did something wrong, most likely. <<

Yoshi's ____ beats Lucarios ____
so as you can see the only thing up close Lucario can do is Jab, and even then your jab beats it. Not to mention that Jabbing Lucario; because of his weight/physics can set up for a grab at certain percents.

JAB HELPS A LOT!!!!!!

I'm not really sure how this would apply. Lucario shouldn't ever be inside Yoshi's jab range due to his monstrous disjointed hitboxes, and if he is, he should be either jabbing or grabbing, anyways. <<

however if you find yourself stuck on the ledge while he approaches from the air I usually find myself using ECG. Lucario cant really do much to edgegaurd on the ground so getting back to the stage isn't much of a problem as long as you airdodge smart.

I could've sworn Run-off-Dair solved most "ledgecamping" problems. <<

*PMS*

Chill, dude. :D

I think we got tilts covered,

they're very annoying, setup for good stuff, but at the same time, yoshi's tilts and jabs are faster, and work more or less to the same effect as lucarios in terms of setups.

as for priority the tilts usually cling

If Yoshi is in range to connect with his tilts, the Lucario screwed up. Lucario's pretty good at zoning, and I'd like to say he's nearly as good as Marth. Any aerial approaches can and will be stopped by an angled Ftilt or Fsmash, and any ground approaches don't fare much better. Yoshi's "speed" doesn't matter if Lucario can just start his move early and plow right through you. I'd imagine a defensive Yoshi would probably fare better due to his ftilt outprioritizing our safest approach, the Fair combo, as well as being able to abuse the pivot grab. (According to you, at least. I'm too lazy to check.) I'm not sure though what Yoshi could possibly do to a grounded Lucario approaching with ftilts and/or Fsmashes combined with the occasional partially charged or fully charged AS, though. It probably wouldn't be pretty, though. >>

 

[Furbs]

Fair I guess could gimp, but it shouldn't ever be outright killing you. O,o
Also, Dsmash, Usmash, and Double Team are rarely used by the common, household Lucario. It's generally believed to be way too slow for a counter, as well as giving most opponents enough time to shield the hit. I'm not sure if Yoshi's slower shield is able to dodge the hit, though. Someone should check. <<

fair can kill at high percents actually, and is pretty good too T_T
also the lucario i talked to last night (Milln) said that U-smash was an excellent move vs yoshi (he has quite a bit of yoshi exp.)
yoshi's shield dosen't come out any slower, its the ending lag that makes it slow, and the roll.

If Yoshi is in range to connect with his tilts, the Lucario screwed up.

by you saying that yoshi should never be in range with tilts then that means lucario is NEVER going to be close enough to fsmash,tilt,or do anything, so is this a magic flying lucario of aura spheres?

Any aerial approaches can and will be stopped by an angled Ftilt or Fsmash, and any ground approaches don't fare much better. Yoshi's "speed" doesn't matter if Lucario can just start his move early and plow right through you.I'm not sure though what Yoshi could possibly do to a grounded Lucario approaching with ftilts and/or Fsmashes combined with the occasional partially charged or fully charged AS, though. It probably wouldn't be pretty, though. >>

saying a lucario that times his fsmash right isn't a very good argument.

you're talking in theories and theories rarely come to fruition during a match.

-Example: Mew2King says that shiek is the best character in melee, because in theory shiek can f-tilt,f-tilt,f-tilt-ftilt-u-tilt, and fair, and NO character will be able to recover if shiek edgeguards with a bair (out ranges marth). is this true? in theory yes, but people aren't out there doing it because it's not very practical.


I think it's the general consensus that in this match yoshi should stay away from the air here. however yoshi's bair if spaced right and given yoshi's fast air movement (fastest in the game, yes better than wario and jiggs) can bair when you f-smash and hit you on your ending lag.

Lucarios fsmash is good but doesn't seem very safe it has startup lag (everything yoshi has up close beats it), and a few frames of ending lag. I actually tested it out how to approach it by having someone spam fsmash (with a 100% damaged lucario not sure if it increased in range or not but wanted to be safe, also we tried both up angled and normal) while i tried to approach and heres what i found.

-bair actually works quite well to approach, because lucario has startup lag you can time yoshi's bair to hit lucario when the attack ends (and yes I used this in game too.)

-and Eggroll is actually pretty good at approaching f-smash and f-tilt (eggroll wtf!?)

- On fsmash eggroll beats the start-up frames and ending frames obviously, when the attack is out (before and after the blue aura is out) it cancels. when the aura is out it out prioritizes the eggroll. however in the time it takes to cross FD in the egg and the time it takes for lucarios fsmash to come out (we tried this too) the roll usually cancels. the lucario player needs to time it just right considering you're in a bad spot if you cancel the attack, yoshi is pretty much lagless and can punish you sense everything he has up close is once again faster.

- Ftilt ALWAYS cancels the roll unless the lucario catches yoshi when he begins the move or starts turning (priority is based on momentum.)

I'd imagine a defensive Yoshi would probably fare better due to his ftilt outprioritizing our safest approach, the Fair combo, as well as being able to abuse the pivot grab. (According to you, at least. I'm too lazy to check.)

that's true, and in this matchup most yoshi's will be playing defensively.

about AS spam:
- ftilt and jabs and bairs and the roll cancel it at low percents
- The roll cancels it at medium percents
and at high percents yoshi is just going to have to shield.


also I'd like to note the lucario i play (rocket trainer) is by no means bad, we play a LOT together and our matches go pretty even, if not in my favor. He is NOT bad he even placed 5th at HOBO 7 here in houston.


honestly though me and Milln agreed on a lot of the same things, he said he doesn't assign ratios to matchups, be he did acknowledge that It's not a TERRIBLE matchup for yoshi but lucario certainly has the upper hand, and we all agree (me, rocket trainer, and KO kingpin (yoshi that consistently plays with milln) that 6:4 sounds about right.

also not to be rude Kitamerby but what yoshi's do you usually play with? I'd be nice to know everyones credibility when they have input for these things, because you could be some lucario fanboy who wants to skull-**** yoshi

Edit: Also did anyone read this?
my final conclusion is 4:6 lucarios favor,
I also heard from KO kingpin (the yoshi in the vids Milln contacted him) heres his thoughts
[22:30] <TehMilln> KO says it's 6-4
[22:30] <TehMilln> He says it can go even, but Lucario's a *****. especially with Dair.
[22:30] <TehMilln> But yeah
[22:31] <TehMilln> We're both in agreement that Lucario is too beast for Yoshi. >3


is this something we can all agree on?