The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Mmac]

We'll do Link next week after Lucario. I would like to get Lucario out of the way though, because there's just so much debate on his level of difficulty.

 

[Tidycats29]

It's more than just his range. In virtually every situation on practically any stage layout, Lucario is almost invariably in a better position to do damage than Yoshi is. His pokes beat ours, his aerials beat ours, his spam beats ours, and he's just generally a pain in the neck. It's not to say Yoshi CAN'T win, it's just really difficult for him.

I'd give him a 7:3, personally, though I think more Yoshis would argue a 6.5:3.5 (possibly 6:4).

I see
so yoshi basically is outranked pretty much

Actually, I think a more pressing issue is Link. We know that we're at a disadvantage with Lucario, but with Link no one has a clue about the match-up. I've played some Link mains and I've beaten them, and they say that Yoshi is the one at an advantage here. Yet, we say that Link is the one at an advantage...

We need some more clarification on this match-up. It's just too vague. We should ask the Link board for some help on this matter. I think that Lucario can wait.

(I really don't have much experience fighting Lucarios, so I can't contribute much...)

I've played Hyrulian_Royalty's toon link and link

he tells me link vs. yoshi is 5:5
though toon link is harder
i would say 6:4 for toon link

but for link i see it even too
seeing as link seems much easier to gimp and can be CG
and even possibly outspam him

but maybe feedback from others can help greatly our little debate on link and lucario

EDIT: i suppose lucario will do for this week XDXD

 

[Ryusuta]

I agree that Link is indeed a very nice place to go after Lucario. We used to have Link as Yoshi's hardest match-up, which I always thought was a bit absurd. Personally, I'd call it right about 5:5, or maybe 5.5:4.5 Yoshi. The main thing Link's got is the range on his disjointed hitboxes, but those are hardly impenetrable.

I could definitely see both of these characters under discussion.

 

[Gindler]

My lucario experiences it seems that...
Lucario's aerials seem to beat yoshi's ALOT, I've have some luck double jump countering but it's not worth it really.
Lucario's Walk away Fsmash strategy is a major pain as my only answer for it is a full hopped Nair
His Dair takes away my prime kill move (Uair)
No CG (geez).
Having hard time killing Lucario isn't good with the boosted power thing.
The aura is just plain annoying, range, increasing power, little to no ending lag.

I usually don't have too much trouble with the matchup suprisingly and tend to win as much as I lose but I hate it so much that I have no problem giving it a 35:65 ranking. It's my 2nd least favorite matchup in terms of hating the fight

 

[Ryusuta]

His Dair takes away my prime kill move (Uair)

That reminds me. I've noticed that there seems to be a space just to the side of his hitbox of his down air in which you actually CAN up air him, apparently. I've done it a handful of times, and it could very well be worth looking into a little bit. It seems like I was hitting just in front of him, but it's hard to recall.

 

[Gindler]

That reminds me. I've noticed that there seems to be a space just to the side of his hitbox of his down air in which you actually CAN up air him, apparently. I've done it a handful of times, and it could very well be worth looking into a little bit. It seems like I was hitting just in front of him, but it's hard to recall.

I've actually noticed this too. But more often than not I get the Dair to the face, the spacing is probably pretty tight or I'm just not using Yoshi's air speed to it's fullest

 

[ArowYoshi]

does anyone know whether our uair or their dair come out faster?, i know ive gotten away with hitting my buddies' lucario from underneath just when lucario comes in range.

but yeah id have to say one of yoshi's hardest machups, along with the stuff said earlier the speed and distance of his dodge also seems to punish me a lot, throwing eggs just seems pointless from long distance because he can dodge every single one of them. also not being able to land uair easily, (a very reliable KO move,) means that hes gonna be in high percentage for a while which also means that hes stronger.

lucario also has long lasting smashes, ive been hit with smashes after the animation is over, ive noticed this mainly with fsmash. but that catches me off guard and leads to being punished pretty badly.

id say 7:3 in his favor but with him being easily edgehogged i could go down to 6:4

 

[Ryusuta]

does anyone know whether our uair or their dair come out faster?, i know ive gotten away with hitting my buddies' lucario from underneath just when lucario comes in range.

It seems like if the Lucario player is spamming down air, he CAN be stuck with up air in between down airs (which could come as a huge surprise to a lot of Lucario players). It's extremely tricky, though.

 

[Snowstalker]

Let's think about it-Yoshi, as we all know, has trouble killing. Lucario has tons of power at high%. Yoshi cannot chaingrab Lucario. At least we're faster and heavier.

3:7, Lucario's favor.

 

[Furbs]

Yoshi Vs Lucario

I'll offer my input on Yoshi vs Lucario

One of the people I consistently play out here, Rocket Trainer (On Houston's Crew) mains Lucario so I can put in my experience versus him. I also played around with Lucario in training mode just to check out his moves (what has lag ect.)



Lucario is a pretty tough match for yoshi just because of how versatile a character he is. He has a good air game, good kill moves (at 100% or so), decent weight, a good projectile, good range, and good priority. Oh and did I mention he has a counter that kills too? Yoshi Struggles a lot with this matchup, not to say it isn't winnable in fact its quite far from that, but it's a match that takes a LOT of patience.

At low percents watch out for lucario's forward B because he can chaingrab yoshi up to 30% . And at high percents watch out for lucario in general, his dair alone does around 20% in damage :O omg!!!!11!!1!

Now lets take a look at Some of lucarios Kill moves at higher percents (120-150ish these are all fresh moves of course)

-fully charged aura sphere
-forward B (if DI'd wrong)
-Fsmash
-Fair
-Bair
-Dsmash
-Usmash
-Uair
-Down B
-Dair

OMG!!!! thats quite a lot of options

So the point here is to kill lucario asap!!
unfortunately that's quite a bit of a difficult task because of his weight and yoshi's lackluster variety of kill moves

-Fsmash kills at around 115-125%, and at that point lucario can out range fsmash with some of his moves. One thing I've found successful is thowing an egg OVER Lucario so that he instinctively counters (MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HIT AND IT GOES HIS DIRECTION) and punishing his counter with an Fsmash.

-Upsmash kills at around 130%, although if you're underneath lucario most of the time they'll spam dair which out prioritizes the upsmash

-Uair is a blessing in the matchup killing at around 120%, "but dear Furbs" you may ask "you silly person you're coming from the same direction as when you upsmash!!!". That is true, but the two things that make this different is that Uair BARELY out-ranges lucarios dair, also what I usually do (sense the spacing is tough) is double jumping when lucario uses dair, tanking the hit and THEN uairing!!!

Now here's some things you should keep in mind on this matchup:
- If you spam eggs lucario can do two things. He can either counter (he moves forward quite a bit when he does this so he can use it to approach), or He'll start charging an aura sphere and power shield the eggs. How to solve: If lucario uses counter to approach you can actually use this as an advantage by power shielding when he reaches you and punishing with a jab combo, if lucario starts charging an aura sphere that means you're gonna have to start approaching .

- When approaching bairs are very effective, although he can grab you out of it it's best to use it to pressure and then use tilts when you land.

- Lucario's moves stay out for quite a while so it takes a while to get the timing right for spot dodging.

- In the air lucarios moves have a bit of ending lag, you HAVE to capitalize on this, it makes the match a LOT easier.

- Also pivot grab is your BEST FRIEND!!!!11!1! it outranges most of lucarios moves and can help setup for a kill.

- Lucario's recovery is kinda bad, Up-b doesn't have too much range on it, doesn't hurt people (Very good to know especially if you're edgehogging), and has start-up lag. In short lucario while off the stage isn't too much of a challenge to edgeguard. although with lucarios superior air game it's HIGHLY ADVISED to be careful, just spam eggs, or edgeguard smart.
lets look at things in terms of speed up close.

Yoshi's jab beats Lucarios
-jab (if timed right lucario can grab)
-ftilt
-utilt
-dtilt
-fsmash
-dsmash
-and usmash
so jabbing is a MUST

Yoshi's ftilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-upsmash
-ftilt
-dtilt
-nair
-fair

Yoshi's utilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-upsmash
-ftilt
-dtilt
and cancels lucarios utilt

Yoshi's Dtilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-usmash
-ftilt
-dtilt
(haven't checked utilt lol i 4got, but it should beat it or cling with it)

Yoshi's Fsmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-USmash

Yoshi's Dsmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-Usmash

Yoshi's Usmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-Usmash
-It also out prioritizes utilt so if you hyphon smash to approach you should be fine in that case

so as you can see the only thing up close Lucario can do is Jab, and even then your jab beats it. Not to mention that Jabbing Lucario; because of his weight/physics can set up for a grab at certain percents.

JAB HELPS A LOT!!!!!!



Overall: 4:6 lucarios favor
This match IS tough, but one thing you need to know is how to punish lucario. He has quite a few moves that leave him vulnerable, and given the speed of yoshi's up close game (u-tilt, jabs, and f-tilt) It's really easy to punish him. Don't be afraid to edge guard, in fact DO IT if it can kill him at a low percent and prevent him from doing around 16% damage with each hit . Patience is key in this match, and knowing when to approach and punish makes this match MUCH easier. DO NOT expect an easy win. go out and pwn!

Seriously going into training mode and trying out his moves helped me A LOT because I know when he lags, and what moves to punish

 

[Ryusuta]

-Uair is a blessing in the matchup killing at around 120%, "but dear Furbs" you may ask "you silly person you're coming from the same direction as when you upsmash!!!". That is true, but the two things that make this different is that Uair BARELY out-ranges lucarios dair, also what I usually do (sense the spacing is tough) is double jumping when lucario uses dair, tanking the hit and THEN uairing!!!

Brilliant! I never considered that option before. I'll have to give that a try.

 

[Furbs]

Brilliant! I never considered that option before. I'll have to give that a try.

one thing i should mention about it though is that Dair comes out amazingly fast, so you'll have to double jump INTO it.

but i mean even if he air dodges he is kind of limited in terms of dealing with people above him so you could just attack on the way down (Lucarios air dodge lasts quite a bit so you shouldn't worry about him punishing you)

 

[tedward2000]

So, I dont have much to say on the match.

However I will say this. Yoshi eggs are annoying. Besides the fact that lucario has a lot of your game matched and covered, your eggs we do not.

I say (this will come back and bite me in the butt I swear) use plenty eggs on combating lucario. It can stun us just enough to get in that smash or jab.

Lucario's hit boxes are not what they seem. Like Up-smash, is a tower hit-box, so its all around him, run up to lucario while he does it, your going to get hit. Madness right?

Also, we have non-existent grab range in front of us. Above lucario is a whole different story.Meaning we can "pluck" yoshi out of the air with either grab, or Force Palm Grab (double range) easily.

Just a bit of info for ya'.
-t2

 

[Ryusuta]

So, I dont have much to say on the match.

However I will say this. Yoshi eggs are annoying. Besides the fact that lucario has a lot of your game matched and covered, your eggs we do not.

Baby Aura Spheres beat out Yoshi's eggs.

 

[Mmac]

But Bair Beats out Uncharged Aura Spheres

 

[tedward2000]

Baby Aura Spheres beat out Yoshi's eggs.

But, you can lob it over us, so we'd have to jump and attack it to stop it.
Yea if it was at the same lvl as BAS's then its done.

But you can angle it so we can't. Which for lucario is not fun.
XP
-t2

 

[Furbs]

But, you can lob it over us, so we'd have to jump and attack it to stop it.
Yea if it was at the same lvl as BAS's then its done.

But you can angle it so we can't. Which for lucario is not fun.
XP
-t2

yeah, but the thing is the sphere beats the egg in terms of speed, so you can effectively out-spam us. in fact now that i think about it i only really use eggs on the edge.
- ECG actually help a lot lol i 4got to put that in

 

[tedward2000]

Well when you put it that way...
Then yea, your right, AS will out spam Eggs. Fully charged demolishes eggs, I'm not sure, but regardless of what % lucario is at, as in the Fully charged will continue to move if you hit it with a egg.

Its been awhile I cant remember.

But none the less, they are annoying and help yoshi a lot in this match-up.
-t2

 

[Shiri]

Okay, I play against someone who I feel is probably one of the best Lucarios.

Mind you, I've traveled very sparingly lately, so my opinion of this player may be outdated. He's no Azen, but he is a high tier Lucario, I think. I have some pretty interesting insights on the matchup.

Here's the thing...

...I said like five pages worth of stuff in the other matchup thread.

Can someone...find it for me? ^___________^;

P.S. - Just kidding, I'll look for it soon and repost it.

 

[SOVAman]

I played Azen's Lucario a few times ****s impossible that is all from me

 

[Furbs]

lol i played azen too at hobo 11
he's good and he dominated me.
but it's azen lawl

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Lucario can't be 6:4, he's nearly as bad, exactly as bad, or worse than Mr. G&W.

Though...could you Egg Roll Bounce into his Smashes?
That would be...teh cool...

 

[SOVAman]

Its a 8:2 lucario advantage no johns

 

[KiwiBear]

Lucario has no advantage over Yoshi, no johning either. The only approach Lucario can make (because just approaching from the ground is foolish against a good Yoshi) is from the air, which is unfortunately shut out due to egg bomb/ running grab combos.

I'll admit though, I've found no one who can play Lucario good enough though. Maybe Lucario is a better character, but I'm a better player fortunately.

 

[Ryusuta]

Here's the thing, though. Lucario doesn't HAVE to approach Yoshi (the other way around, actually), once he's on the inside, he dominates Yoshi.

 

[SOVAman]

Here's the thing, though. Lucario doesn't HAVE to approach Yoshi (the other way around, actually), once he's on the inside, he dominates Yoshi.

Thank you


I was just bout to say this

 

[Furbs]

Lucario can't be 6:4, he's nearly as bad, exactly as bad, or worse than Mr. G&W.

Though...could you Egg Roll Bounce into his Smashes?
That would be...teh cool...

LOL

-lucario may have some disjointed madneses that makes him like G+W but like i said learn lucarios moves. unlike G+W Lucario's arials lag when he lands and he can effectively be punished out of quite a few of his moves, he is nowhere near as safe as G+W.

-He lacks a shield stabbing move which helps

-His OOS options aren't as good as G+W. which makes it safer for us to approach.

- His K.O. moves are only really effective when he's at high percents and even then Most of G+W's moves are better.

- although lucario has more K.O moes than G+W most of lucarios moves require an adjustment of playstyle other than aura sphere unlike G+W who can just tech chase a down throw and edgeguard better.

- G+W is harder to edgeguard.
more later g2g

 

[DstyCube]

Lucario is a horrible matchup for Yoshi. His disjointed hit boxes make it nearly impossible land to anything on him. Even if you try to camp with eggs, he can just aura spam since egg throw animation just takes way too long. Your best bet is to just get him out over the edge and gimp his recovery, but that's not nearly as easy as it seems. I'd give this match a 3:7 in lucario's favor

 

[Furbs]

Here's the thing, though. Lucario doesn't HAVE to approach Yoshi (the other way around, actually), once he's on the inside, he dominates Yoshi.

actually up close its quite the opposite if you stick to basics
now lets look at things in terms of speed up close.

Yoshi's jab beats Lucarios
-jab
-ftilt
-utilt
-dtilt
-fsmash
-dsmash
-and usmash
so jabbing is a MUST

Yoshi's ftilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-upsmash
-ftilt
-dtilt

Yoshi's utilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-upsmash
-ftilt
-dtilt
and cancels lucarios utilt

Yoshi's Dtilt beats
-fsmash
-dsmash
-usmash
-ftilt
-dtilt
(haven't checked utilt lol i 4got, but it should beat it or cling with it)

Yoshi's Fsmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-USmash

Yoshi's Dsmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-Usmash

Yoshi's Usmash beats
-Fsmash
-Dsmash
-Usmash
-It also out prioritizes utilt so if you hyphon smash to approach you should be fine in that case

so as you can see the only thing up close Lucario can do is Jab, and even then your jab beats it. Not to mention that Jabbing Lucario; because of his weight/physics can set up for a grab at certain percents.

JAB HELPS A LOT!!!!!!

an effective way I've utilized this is approaching with Nair to cancel Aura spheres (depending on the charge of course)
fast falling and jabbing. Yoshi's jab beats lucarios by a good margin.

Lucario is a horrible matchup for Yoshi. His disjointed hit boxes make it nearly impossible land to anything on him. Even if you try to camp with eggs, he can just aura spam since egg throw animation just takes way too long. Your best bet is to just get him out over the edge and gimp his recovery, but that's not nearly as easy as it seems. I'd give this match a 3:7 in lucario's favor

also about that. Lucario can outcamp Yoshi by quite a good margin, but there's not much Lucario can do when yoshi uses Edge canceled eggs. That's how you want to use eggs in this match

 

[Mmac]

Furbs is making good points, But what about Air to Air and Ground to Air (With Lucario being in the Air both times). Whats the best way to deal with it.

 

[Furbs]

Air to Air Yoshi is at a disadvantage in most points. when recovering you're going to mainly want to airdodge.

Yoshi's moves come out faster, but Lucario's last longer and have more priority (only exception to speed is lucarios dair of course)

as for lucario Approaching in the Air, I know his dair beats most of yoshi's ground attacks, but given yoshi's speed its pretty easy to punish if you avoid it. plus Pivot Grabbing helps a lot when he approaches in the air due to his lag. however if you find yourself stuck on the ledge while he approaches from the air I usually find myself using ECG. Lucario cant really do much to edgegaurd on the ground so getting back to the stage isn't much of a problem as long as you airdodge smart.

BUT I HIGHLY RECOMMEND going into training mode and seeing lucarios Lag on his arials when he lands, and even when he's in the Air. Quite a few have lag on them and it makes this match INCREDIBLY easier

 

[Ryusuta]

actually up close its quite the opposite if you stick to basics
now lets look at things in terms of speed up close.

Yoshi's jab beats Lucarios
-jab

I actually stopped right here, because I've had Lucario's jab beat mine countless times.

 

[Furbs]

I actually stopped right here, because I've had Lucario's jab beat mine countless times.

lol look at the frames dude its true, try getting your timing right.
and if you dont believe me go to training mode and see for yourself.
also i'd hate to sound like a **** but what tournaments have you been to?

 

[Ryusuta]

lol look at the frames dude its true, try getting your timing right.

I wasn't aware that you were talking about speed. In terms of priority, Lucario's moves almost invariably beat Yoshi, which is what I was referring to. Next time be more clear on what you're referring to. When most people say "this move beats this move" they're referring to priority, not speed.

On the first active frame of the attack, Lucario's jab beats Yoshis, though it takes longer to come out.

also i'd hate to sound like a **** but what tournaments have you been to?

First of all, you DO sound like a ****. You sound like a TOTAL ****ing ****. So much so that your question doesn't really justify responding to, because quite frankly, it pisses me off quite a bit.

But yes, I've been to numerous southwest regional tournaments for Smash, specifically with Brawl. I'm not some beginner that just picked up Yoshi yesterday, so don't patronize me or condescend to me. Do I make myself clear?

 

[Furbs]

now lets look at things in terms of speed up close.

lol what's not clear about that?
also don't pretend like you're some kind of saint because you countered my argument with a pretty *****y response

 

[Ryusuta]

Look, just because I misread what I thought you were saying doesn't make my response bad. It might have been hasty, but in and of itself, what I said was valid. Then you come back with a bunch of ad hominem garbage as a result, and are suddenly surprised when I get annoyed by it?

 

[SOVAman]

U all need to CALM down right now


and watch this vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ2RjZI-L4s

 

[Furbs]

ok 4give and 4get <3

but seriously Lucario's jabs do have amazing priority, in fact overall is seems that lucario has a lot of priority.

but at the same time speed is a MAJOR factor here.

It's just like Olimar, one of the reasons that Yoshi is so good against Olimar is because of how fast yoshi's attacks come out compared to olimar. of course a majority of olimars moves out prioritize yoshi's the dominating factor here is speed.

one of the things you HAVE to take advantage of is yoshi's speed compared to lucarios, you can't miss an oppotunity to punish, and you need to know your openings. It takes quite a while to get the timings right, and even when you do it's still tough. The only reason i feel so confident when i fight Lucario is all the practice I have had against him.

I think at the highest level of play this match is a 6:4 in lucarios favor, He outcamps, out prioritizes, has a better air game, and has better killing options at higher percents. but yoshi has speed, which shuts down a lot of lucarios ground game, i mean seriously everything yoshi has on the ground comes out faster than lucario's smashes, some of his tilts, and Yoshi's jab beats his in terms of speed. also lucario is MUCH easier to punish than G+W and has less options at low percents and is gimped easier, which is why i believe that this matchup is better than a 7:3.

Edit: ONCE AGAIN!! give lucario a try in training mode!! it helps A LOT!!

 

[Poltergust]

A couple of things, Furbs...

-It doesn't matter if Lucario has a shield poke or not. Yoshi's shield is unpokable. Besides, why are you shielding anyways?

-Yoshi does indeed outprioirtize Olimar. His b-air and d-smash just tear his Pikmin apart. Olimar has surprisingly low priority to his attacks because the Pikmin's hit-box is the same as their hurt-box, so disjointed attacks would cut them to ribbons.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

we need some lucario is this thread, should i post sumthin there? also i cant bair him =[ so much range on fsmash, really hard the first time you play one it caught me off guard that is was so hard doin stuff