The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Ussi]

First things first. Pikachu does not outcamp Yoshi on most horizontal stages. There, I said it. I don't care if you don't believe me. It's the truth. Yoshi can fire off eggs at the same time that Pikachu jolts; even if Pikachu runs, Yoshi can still keep up with the fleeing opponent by using his best weapon against Pikachu's incoming Thunder Jolt; his jab. Yoshi's jab stops most forms of projectile camping cold and not many players realize this. Smaller stages, stages with lots of platforms (or the moving one on Smashville), and vertical stages are where you can find Pikachu beating you out on the projectile part of the game. Pikachu not getting hit is fine, but giving Pikachu more unique angles at which to fire projectiles from makes your job not getting hit extremely hard since, in order to camp Pikachu in return, you must be standing still. Yoshi cannot camp Pikachu while moving; it does not work. Throw eggs and jab incoming jolts--that is the recipe for success long range. The fight won't last that way for long. If you can keep up not getting hit and manage to land an egg, even just occasionally, you will find that the egg's superior damage right off the bat (combined with using jabs on the jolts to keep eggs mostly fresh) will eventually force Pikachu to enter mid-range combat in order to gain some momentum. Even the most patient Pikachu players know when something like jolt camping just isn't working the way it should and they are smart enough to know how to enter mid-range to neutralize the situation and try again.

Pikachu still has the advantage of being able to move forward or backwards during his tjolt. But Eggs can be aimed accordingly.

Once Pikachu moves mid-range, things get difficult. Pikachu's superior priority at mid-range is essential to his battle plan. High pressure aerials and trots can make any player second guess themselves at this range, since one hit usually leads to a few more and although the hits may not do lots of damage, one can certainly feel the momentum of the match change. Spotdodging at mid-range against Pikachu is generally a very bad idea and you can expect them to stay grounded when attempting to bait and punish defensive maneuvers like shielding, rolling, and spotdodging. Trotting upsmashes and dash grabs can be very characteristic of mid-range aggression by Pikachu. Forward aerial also makes an annoying addition to his arsenal, leaving Yoshi locked on many options, both ground and air-based. What makes it even more difficult is that Pikachu can stop almost on a dime and shift to a passive-aggressive mode or go straight into defensive spacing depending on how Yoshi reacts. Passive-aggression usually entails baiting ground approaches into carefully spaced forward smashes and pivot grabs. Defensive spacing options include down tilt (sometimes canceled into a retreating forward smash), neutral or retreating forward aerials, and retreating jumping jolts.

Pikachu lacks long range besides his fsmash but the tip is very weak. However, Pikachu can easily punish anything you do due to his running speed. Since Yoshi's shield is horrible for shield grabbing, pikachu can fair pretty easily on it then follow up with a grab. If you spot dodge, fair will end before your spotdodge ends and Pikachu will punish with a tilt.

Oh, yeah...I forgot about the Quick Attack Cancel. By the way, this move is your friend. "Now he's off the deep end more than usual," you are probably saying to yourself. Pikachu's dreaded Quick Attack Cancel strikes fear into the hearts of many characters and rightfully so. It's quite potent against a good deal of characters and players. Here's the skinny on this technique, though. There's nothing to be worried about unless you've fallen and missed a tech (which is entirely your fault; don't let anybody tell you otherwise). I'd say out of most of the movement techniques in this game, it is one of the easiest to take advantage of. The weapon of choice for Yoshi here against this technique and against most of Pikachu's mid-range assaults is the ever-reliable pivot grab. Pivot grab stops aggressive Quick Attack Cancels cold and punishes reckless dashes in. In fact, grabbing in general tends to keep Yoshi's viability at mid-range in this matchup somewhat intact. From dash grabbing on passive-aggressive trots, to standing grabs for spotdodges, and pivots for expected aggression, Yoshi can and should rely on intelligent grabbing to keep him safe in this tumultuous area of the battle. This is the area where Pikachu has the easiest time and where he has the highest chance of shifting momentum his way; expect opposing Pikachu players to abuse this range to their utmost ability.

QAC is a means of movement mainly. It can cross 2/3's of SV in one QA. QAC is also useful for following and tech chasing. QAC can even lead to rising aerials out of them so it can start combos as well as be an attempt to kill (nair at higher %'s) QA is versatile, as it has 2 directions it can go in one QA. Instead of going straight at you it can go around then at you and etc. Its mind games and great for reseting positions, retreating and closing the distance.

Close range is where Yoshi can really shine. However, this is still no walk in the park. The biggest part about this matchup that may be discouraging for many Yoshi players is that there is no rest for either player if both are playing intelligently and to their characters' strengths. In the Snake matchup, you can go easy when you spot your grab openings. In the Meta Knight matchup, you can go easy when you are waiting for Meta Knight to return to the edge or when you are chaingrabbing. In this matchup, even in your most advantageous area of the matchup, there is no rest. Yoshi is blessed with the ability to create an early momentum lead in the match very easily; keeping that lead as the battle shifts into different phases is key to winning matches and sets. Close range, Pikachu will be working on lots of obvious aggression. The reason it can still be potent is because of Pikachu's good priority, great attack speed, and the ability for his attacks to flow into each other naturally for the most part. One can expect lots of grabs, rapid jabs, forward tilts, dashing neutral airs, and the occasional upsmash. The only defensive maneuvers present are shield and spotdodge. Spotdodges will be followed up most likely by jabs or (more often) by downsmashing (which you should be prepared to DI at any point in time). Shield is followed up mostly back out of shield tactics like up aerial, back aerial (sparingly), and the dangerous neutral air.

Both Pikachu and Yoshi have pretty fast tilts so its whoever lands it first. Pika will be relying on utilt to begin combos with uair/nair/bair at low %'s. Fair also starts combos and leads to grabs. Pika's dtilt has range, but Yoshi's dtilt compares to it minus the lag Yoshi's has. Pikachu's dsmash is normally a panic attack (bad habit or just wants to use it. Its good when used to just aim with the last hit) Dsmash also shield pokes but Yoshi does not have to worry about that. Dsmash has its uses, as if can be used to beat out other moves with its priority. When you DI out of it, be wary how pikachu will tech chase you. Some will try to follow you if you roll with an usmash.

Yoshi's most reliable and dangerous weapon at this phase in the battle is his jab. Single jabs tap on Pikachu's shield to prevent OoS retaliation on apply almost infuriating levels of pressure. Successful double jabs lead to highly successful dash grabs and dash attacks.

I am questioning this by if Yoshi lands a 2nd jab, Pika doesn't have enough time to do anything about it? Jabs don't normally have much shield stun so i don't see how Pikachu can't spotdodge at least since Yoshi's grabs do take a while besides pivot grab.

As Pikachu learns that close-range is not the best bet for this fight, the player will either lean toward extreme aggression or extreme defense. Pikachu can easily retreat and reset by Quick Attacking up and away to stabilize the momentum and try to spot some openings in your play. On the other hand, Pikachu can try to force his way through your options by abusing super high priority aerials that can take advantage of Yoshi's blind spots, hoping to either knock you into mid-range, off the edge, or into your shield...these are all places where Pikachu can begin to space himself into a comfortable range and attempt to fall into a rhythm. If, for some reason, you are getting forced out of close range, you should just run out and attempt to reset and long range. Rolling and excessive spotdodging or airdodging will get you punished in a match-altering way and you honestly can't afford to make simple mistakes like these; remember, if you have to get out of close range, don't walk (or roll)--run.

Close range by no means is bad for Pikachu. Pikachu has his own options and Yoshi has his.

Yoshi's job in this match is to stay grounded. If you're a fan of Prince of Tennis, you can appreciate the mystifying effectiveness of Tezuka Zone (although I prefer the more comical movie version).

Ah Prince of Tennis.. good anime, good anime. Are the OVAs being translated? Its been a while since I last checked for OVAs 20+

Similarly, Yoshi wants to stay on the ground and avoid unnecessary dashing, dodging, DRs, trots, or many other tricks. Jumping is also bad for Yoshi in this matchup similarly to how jumping is bad for Snake in his matchup against Yoshi--there are too many ways to take advantage once the character hits the ground to try to make unnecessary jumping a viable tactic or even an option.

Almost everyone can combat aerial foes easily. (I think it was Sakurai's way of trying to make battles aerial based like Melee)

 

[.Marik]

Shouldn't we get input from the Pikachus before we move on?

I agree. Also, I think Zelda has a 60:40 advantage over Yoshi. Nothing too serious.

I mainly play computers, and a few crappy Pikachus, but Yoshi can outcamp Pikachu, especially from a distance.

The little yellow guy is fast, and can punish you if you mess up at close range. But, we can also punish him at close range. His Nair is allright, but his aerials are really nothing to worry about. His ground attacks are deadlier. And his stupid annoying Thunder and Grabs. >_<

His Fsmash is pretty good, but the further you are, the less effective it will be. His Fair is also fairly annoying, as well as his Dsmash.

I would keep Pikachu airborne, and rack up his damage with Egg Spamming and Nair/Uairs and Dair. Both Yoshi and Pikachu have fast tilt attacks, so like Ussi said, it's whoever launches them first. He's also light, so he dies fast if you manage to hit him. Good Pikachu's are pretty hard to hit sometimes...

I don't know what a decent matchup rate would be. 55:45 Yoshi's favour? We do have a lot of techniques we could use to punish unwary Pikachu players.

 

[Ussi]

match up ratios do not include not knowing what the other has. You must assume Pikachu understands how Yoshi plays like in general and vice versa(Highest level of play)

Pika's aerials are something to watch for. Nair is similiar to Yoshi's nair which will kill at higher percents and comes out fast. In killing power, i believe Pika's is stronger. uair > nair is a good combo as well.

I'm unsure about Yoshi's bair vs Pika's fair, if the tail counts as part of Yoshi's hurt box, i'd say Pika's fair will go thru it since it is disjointed (despite low range). Besides air battles, Pika's fair is a combo starter when FF'd. Yoshi is lucky his shield cannot be shield poked because Pika's fair eats through shields pretty well (Not FF'd though). But Yoshi's unlucky since Pikachu can follow up with a grab right away before Yoshi can shield grab. Although, I think Yoshi might have time to jab quickly OoS (Not sure, Yoshi's jab is fast, but shield drop is slower) But the shield drop will leave Yoshi open to empty hops > grab

Most inexperienced Pikachus (A lot of them) Spam fsmash, which is bad. Fsmash should only be used when its sure to hit (Cause 20% is nice) or to kill. Otherwise a tilt is better since it can combo. Dtilt has the range and can trip. Trip leads to a dash grab. Ftilt is a good quick tap to knock Yoshi back a bit but not to far that he can start using eggs. (Unless he's that high percent)

 

[.Marik]

Yoshi has a stronger airgame than Pikachu, I believe. Pikachu's attacks are quick, but don't really pose a threat compared to Yoshi's.

His grabs are somewhat troublesome, and he can grab before we can react, shield, or grab him.

I think Yoshi's Bair outprioritizes Pikachu's Fair. Yoshi's Bair has great range, and it is quick.
His ground attacks seem more deadlier to me, I noticed. You do have some good points, but Pikachu's aerials aren't deadly, not like his ground attacks or his grabs. Sure they can be annoying and quick, but they won't devastate you if you're careful.

They also spam Thunder, but it's fairly easy to dodge, but it has virtually no lag at all, so they can set up a whole new string of attacks.

I say, Yoshi completely beats out Pikachu's airgame attacks, so we need to juggle them and keep doing aerials close to the ground, and then use an Uair/Fair/Nair to finish them off, seeing as they are lightweight characters. Grabs also help a lot.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Arg ill give my opinion when i have the time. right now i call it a 50:50 matchup.

 

[gallax]

no way is it a 50:50 matchup. pika is the victor here. imo this is a 60:40 matchup.

and yoshi does not beat our attacks. they are slower and are set up in advance. just because they are more powerful doesnt mean they are better. ours are faster, less situational, and lead to a better approach game. as far as i know yoshis need to do a RAR to be able to use their bair. pikas do not. we can use our bair when facing the opponent and also get multiple hits with it. you say that the dair is great for damage racking. well pikas size makes your dair that much more situational. how many yoshis can actually time the dair just right to make sure that you can fully use your dair on a pika and land lagless? you knwo how hard that is to pull of every time. i guarantee that you will be punished for attempting this and failing.

the thing that yoshi has going that does make this matchup is his jab and projectile. not going to go into the jab but the projectile can really help you yoshis depending on the pika player. some do not know how to cope with the eggs. but, some do. the eggs are not that great for camping imo. they are good for ledge hogging/stalling. our projectile is much more devasting to you than to us.

not even to mention thunder. yoshis use their jump to soar ove their enemies and do not have to worry about enemys attack them due to super armor and their ability to escape before the opponent can reach them. pika can easily use the thunder and punish.

pika> yoshi

edit* and one more thing. if you play a pika that is any good with the qac than you may get to punish it once in a while. but if you play a well seasoned pika who knows the qac through and through, there is nothing yoshi can do. you say you can pivot grab. hahah. you wish. there is no way this is going to work. pika can cancel out of his qac with a jump and land a fair or tjolt on you every time you try to grab us out of the qac. and besides, its used mostly for escape. transportation, and tech chases. we wouldt even be close enough to even let you think about using it.

 

[Sharky]

@Galax, responded to in the order presented in his post:

1. Yoshi has exactly one slow aerial, one slow smash, and one slow grab (that is never used, as pivot grabs are obviously better), so I fail to understand your statement.

2. A: RAR doesn't exactly slow down an attack, and as Yoshi's aerial speed is the fastest in the game, something slightly slower isn't exactly bad, anyway. B: Frontal RAR'd bairs aren't exactly a major strategy for Yoshi, to begin with.

3. A: Dair is very easy to land laglessly, actually. From a full-hop, it's done just before the crest of the jump. It's even easier from a double jump. B: Again, dair isn't exactly a major tactic, either.

4. You're forgetting about pivot/chain grabs.

5. As Shiri mentioned, we can egg you just as fast as you can tjolt us. we can move around while egging just as much as you can move around tjolting. we can even slide towards/away from you on the ground while egging you. Camping-wise, I believe we are equal.

6. Another non-Yoshi who is yet to learn about the double-jump airdodge. Thunder should not work against Yoshi as an edgeguard. Ever.

I still think 50/50

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i might also point out galax they have a release cg on us.

 

[Deleted member]

Id say its very slightly in pikas advantage, just because in general, pika can combo out of a fair more than we can out of a bair, and ledgehop thunders(or ledgehop QAC thunders) can **** our recovery.

Galax, your points dont make sense. Why would you compare pikas bair to yoshis, pika's is garbage.

 

[Ussi]

Pika has the worst bair in the game.... (And his isn't that bad...)

I still don't see Yoshi beating Pikachu's fair. Fair has disjointedness in it. Yoshi's tail should be part of his hurt box unless its some weird crap where his hurt box is not being included into the attack??

and if anything, wouldn't Yoshi SA thru thunder if he didn't dodge thru it?

now if we look at Yoshi's aerial attacks.... Uair comes out in 5 frames and nair is 3 frames right? Those are Yoshi's fastest aerials.. The rest aren't as fast I believe. So in a sense Pikachu does have faster aerials in general, but they both have 3 frame nairs. But Like I said before, Pikachu's should be stronger.

About Pivot grabs, Pikachu won't ever dash straight at someone (Unless there is something being exploited) . At the very least he'll approach with a tjolt or an aerial. I don't see pivot grab working too easily. Isn't Yoshi's dash grab 12 frames? Not entirely fast either.

[I wonder why I'm always first to the Pika match ups then the rest of the pikas come]

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi can pivot grab all aerials and grab you out of Quick attack so yea, thats how it works.

SA isnt reliable, no yoshis rely on it, i mostly worry bout getting hit by the explosion off pika if he reads an airdodge. I know i do taht to yoshis =)

Yoshis tail is disjointed, it beats marths fair, it can beat pikas fair too.

Thanks for asking these things though instead of just claiming "Im right, i know the matchup, this is how it goes".

 

[Ussi]

~_~; Claiming to know a character better than the character board itself sounds like a pretty silly idea. Course that is not including ignorance (You'd be surprised at some boards/people).

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would say this MU is 55-45 or 60-40. The yoshi must play SO MUCH better than the pikachu to have a chance. Pika's ground game is superior to Yoshi's except for spacing, but his speed makes up for that (Don't try to argue that yoshi is faster, it's not right) Yoshi's Uair will kill pikachu fairly early, probably around 105% at the height of the lower platforms on Battlefield. Fair comboes from pikachu are yoshi's worst enemy. Yes you can pivot grab, but most pikachu's will approach with the aid of a T-jolt, so you would just get hit anyway. Yoshi's bair will outprioritize everything pikachu has, don't argue it. It has superior range to basically everything we have except for maybe F-smash. Pika's D-smash isn't really that good of an attack. It can punish rolls and get up animations, thats about it. You can tap DI up and you will get out of it by around the 3rd or 4th hit. Pikachu has more mobility than yoshi, and Power shielding kinda ***** eggs. It is easy to time the PS and we can shoot another T-jolt. If you shield, we can run and grab you. If you jump, pika's air game > yoshi's, ESPECIALLY if yoshi is facing pikachu. Uair will juggle you, and pikachu is really good at punishing airdodges. Thunder may not be great to kill yoshi because of DJ air dodge, but it can put yoshi in an uncomfortable position.

 

[RyanPF]

I would agree that Yoshi has a disadvantage of at least 55:45.

 

[Ussi]

ESAM, just nitpicking, but every character is good at punishing air dodges.


Edit: I will day this... Yoshi was designed to be able to be more punishable because of his weight. But it's not a serious issue but when compared to a feather weight like Pikachu, who lives off avoiding other people since he dies too early otherwise, Pikachu is more prone to avoid punishment. Its just Pikachu gets more chances to punish Yoshi then Yoshi gets to punish Pikachu.

 

[gallax]

ok i just read my post and i think i was on crack cuz not even i can can understand what i was getting at. sorry.

basically it comes down to pikas speed and mobility in this matchup. for now lets assume that camping is the same for each character and that the DJ airdodge is effective. i wont argue with you that yoshis bair is good and outprioritizes ours. but i will say that our fair is way more effective and useful than yoshis bair. pikas lagless end to fair comboes excellently. if ya'll make any mistake as yoshi, be sure that it will be punished. pikas generally have to play more finess and learn to punish those tiny mistakes.

i would like to get into the airdodge thing. now you may think that this is a get out of jail free card(metaphor) against our thunder. well you know who else thinks this? snake...sonic...and almost anyone who thinks they can airdodge it. yes...it is possible and i have seen it done and have done it. but, i would like ot point out two things. the first is that as pika we encounter this all the time when trying to thunder people. we know how to throw of your timing and bait you into an airdodge and then punish. then next thing is that even if you do airdodge it, we can and most likely will still get another attack in on oyu somehow when you are trying to land. either way...you are going to get hurt.

i still say 60-40 in favor of pika.

 

[Chaco]

Good god where is MMac?

 

[MrEh]

Good god where is MMac?

Gone forever apparently. >>

Which is a shame, since he was the one updating the matchup chart back at the Bowser boards.

 

[Chaco]

Gone forever apparently. >>

Which is a shame, since he was the one updating the matchup chart back at the Bowser boards.

Wait, gone forever?

 

[MrEh]

Wait, gone forever?

Dunno, he hasn't been on in ages.

He's either had massive computer troubles in the past month, or he's just stopped coming.

 

[Metatitan]

Wait, gone forever?

Mabey since hes ashamed that "he let yoshi down" and that yoshi's tier placement was all his fault. the only fault he has is the same as 99% of us, we dont go to tournies (although im lookin atm so dont put me on that list just yet )

 

[MrEh]

Mabey since hes ashamed that "he let yoshi down" and that yoshi's tier placement was all his fault.

My only regret is that he couldn't have sent me the PSD files for the matchup charts before he disappeared..

I could've updated them for him ><

 

[Shiri]

He'll be back.

It may not be soon, but he'll be back.

At any rate, I say we should see if anybody has anymore Pikachu input and then move on to another character on Monday. I don't think we need a definite stance for now on these matchups; we can go over some general matchup points for these characters since we're really far from finishing. We can do the finishing touches later. There are so many characters we haven't even gotten close to yet.

 

[Chaco]

Who's next, I call Kirby. I actually demand Kirby.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby is next week. However, someone active should make a new thread, now that Mmac is gone. =/

I think hes gone cuz yoshi got moved down on the tier list. So lets work hard and move him up!

 

[Ussi]

I have to say, I was playing Ace and Pride in doubles today, and I have 2 stocks alone and they both have 2 stocks and I'm Ike and I Manage to kill off Pride and get Ace down to one stock high percents xD (Still lost while Pride was coaching Ace him on what to do against me lol)

/done off topic

 

[Chaco]

Kirby is next week. However, someone active should make a new thread, now that Mmac is gone. =/

I think hes gone cuz yoshi got moved down on the tier list. So lets work hard and move him up!

I say Shiri.

He is like an organization god.

 

[Metatitan]

mmac is just embarrassed that yoshi went down on the tier list and blames himself. although since he never entered tournies (along with most of us), nothing was his fault at all

 

[Snowstalker]

Shiri should make the new one. I'd love to, but I have awful orginazation.

He should also change Zelda to 40.

On a side note, can we agree on this?:

Week 11: Pikachu
Week 12: Kirby
Week 13: Wario
Week 14: Peach
Week 15: Donkey Kong

 

[Deleted member]

Just throwing this out there, snake is really hard to kill, and if olimar gets lots of purples its literally impossible to win if he pitches a tent. Because our only safe approach is grabbing, and purple side bs beat grabs so meh =(

 

[Airborne]

after watching some of CoT4, i'm scared to try and ko now..... people's DI is too good now.... O.O

on a side note..... DDDDIIIIIIIII JJJJJJOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Azen was a beast with DI-ing during teams, I still wonder how he didn't wind up top 10

On topic though, I can't wait till the Peach matchup is talked about. That matchup is bugging me a bit right now.

 

[Shiri]

I'll make the new matchup thread if you guys really want me to.

I'm warning you, though; the thread title will be as full of bad puns as I had for the Melee Yoshi matchup thread.

 

[Deleted member]

Doo it!!!

I remember those, ahh the melee days, back when i was awful(even moreso than now). Melee boards were amazing tho, everyone was so accepting even though i presented really really dumb things =)

 

[Shiri]

Alright, I'll get started.

I'm going to be borrowing all the relevant information that I can from Kiwikomix's (I still <3 this dude) matchup thread as well. It will be up in the next few days; you guys can keep discussing the Pikachu/Kirby matchups if you'd like.

 

[Chaco]

Alright, will do Shiri.

 

[Snowstalker]

Thanks, Shiri. Will the discussion be on Pika or Kirby?

 

[Sharky]

Shiri is amazing. /thread.

and I miss the melee yoshi boards back in the day. =(

 

[Chaco]

Yeah, me too.

/brawljoinee

 

[.Marik]

Mmac come back.