The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[Airborne]

If we're going to move on, I suggest Pikachu. I <3 that matchup lotz.

SECOND. i need to beat the **** out of CC Spec...

 

[Deleted member]

K pikachu is the next matchup!

 

[Chaco]

Pika's fine with me.

 

[Ryusuta]

Me, too. A reexamining of Kirby after Pikachu would be great, too, as Stocky said.

 

[Snowstalker]

Sure, let's do Pikachu. However, I think we should discuss Wario after that.

 

[Deleted member]

The order is pikachu, then kirby. Dont think past that, we decide later.

PIKACHU:

Hes campy, hes got teh pro thunderz, and hes got teh supa annoying quick attack cancels =(

His aerial range is pretty garbage tho, so he has to make openings, however, he can capitalize on even the smallest ones with that QAC, and can quickly close space and continue camping in your face or approach. hes a combo maniac as well, with that annoying uair and all of its follow ups.

No idea on a ratio.

 

[RyanPF]

Pikachu out-camps Yoshi, I think. IIRC jab beats t-jolts so that is one way to approach. Usually I just jump, though. Pikachu is kinda short for b-air approaches; if I plan it so I actually make contact, I end up making it really obvious. Yoshi has a chaingrab, right? I don't think you can effectively follow up with anything, though. What's the best direction to SDI out of Pika's d-smash? I get out of the last hit about 50% of the time. I have a bad habit of airdodging right after smashes, which gets me killed a lot. (thunder when you are near the blast zone = Pikachu's favorite thing ever)

And don't try to gimp Pika. Eggs only. >.>

 

[Metatitan]

this has nothing to do with pikachu but orion and i did our "grudge" matches and he now agrees the matchup for jiggs and yoshi is 40:60 yoshi. Any questions

 

[Shiri]

Oh, man.

I am going to, like...write an essay on this matchup.

Ohhhhhhhhhh man.

 

[Metatitan]

Oh, man.

I am going to, like...write an essay on this matchup.

Ohhhhhhhhhh man.

Good ive never fought a pikachu i could use the insight

 

[Tidycats29]

After brawling anther's pikachu

i do not think this match up is even

but i'll go into more info once Mmac changes that we aren't discussing zelda anymore

 

[Ryusuta]

More accurately, I was surprised by Jigglypuff's throw game and feel that aspect of the matchup warrants further examination, since no one thought to bring it up.

 

[MrEh]

More accurately, I was surprised by Jigglypuff's throw game and feel that aspect of the matchup warrants further examination, since no one thought to bring it up.

Jiggs' throws are ****. ^^

 

[Metatitan]

More accurately, I was surprised by Jigglypuff's throw game and feel that aspect of the matchup warrants further examination, since no one thought to bring it up.

That and im a throw *****

 

[Furbs]

After brawling anther's pikachu

i do not think this match up is even

but i'll go into more info once Mmac changes that we aren't discussing zelda anymore

I think anther is better than any yoshi player here lol

 

[Metatitan]

he probly is xD

 

[DarkThundah]

I know this is a little late but...

Yes, I think Sheik is a guy, so cut me some slack!

Sheik is female!

Sheik is female.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone who makes a topic or posts anything in regards to sheik's gender apart from this single post in these forums is getting a nice fatty warning.

A thread on the subject may end up giving you a temp ban.

Have a nice day.

See?

 

[Chaco]

*waits for Shiriopsis*

 

[Snowstalker]

Zelda is probably a 40:60 matchup, looking through this thread. Still, I really want to see Shiri's view, and then we can move on to Pikachu.

 

[Shiri]

I was going to wait until Mmac officially moved us over to Pikachu, but it seems he can't for now.

Therefore, without further ado:

How to Beat Pikachu

This matchup is a pretty gutsy matchup for a game like Brawl; as much of it can be played long-range as can be played just centimeters between the two characters. This is probably going to be one of the toughest matches Yoshi has, but for different reasons than character qualities. This matchup extends beyond the abilities of the characters and reaches into the abilities of the players. This matchup requires persistence, consistency, accuracy, foresight, and plenty of risk assessment. One might say that these qualities are necessary for all matchups, but I find none that reach into the heart of actual combat like Yoshi v. Pikachu.

First things first. Pikachu does not outcamp Yoshi on most horizontal stages. There, I said it. I don't care if you don't believe me. It's the truth. Yoshi can fire off eggs at the same time that Pikachu jolts; even if Pikachu runs, Yoshi can still keep up with the fleeing opponent by using his best weapon against Pikachu's incoming Thunder Jolt; his jab. Yoshi's jab stops most forms of projectile camping cold and not many players realize this. Smaller stages, stages with lots of platforms (or the moving one on Smashville), and vertical stages are where you can find Pikachu beating you out on the projectile part of the game. Pikachu not getting hit is fine, but giving Pikachu more unique angles at which to fire projectiles from makes your job not getting hit extremely hard since, in order to camp Pikachu in return, you must be standing still. Yoshi cannot camp Pikachu while moving; it does not work. Throw eggs and jab incoming jolts--that is the recipe for success long range. The fight won't last that way for long. If you can keep up not getting hit and manage to land an egg, even just occasionally, you will find that the egg's superior damage right off the bat (combined with using jabs on the jolts to keep eggs mostly fresh) will eventually force Pikachu to enter mid-range combat in order to gain some momentum. Even the most patient Pikachu players know when something like jolt camping just isn't working the way it should and they are smart enough to know how to enter mid-range to neutralize the situation and try again.

Once Pikachu moves mid-range, things get difficult. Pikachu's superior priority at mid-range is essential to his battle plan. High pressure aerials and trots can make any player second guess themselves at this range, since one hit usually leads to a few more and although the hits may not do lots of damage, one can certainly feel the momentum of the match change. Spotdodging at mid-range against Pikachu is generally a very bad idea and you can expect them to stay grounded when attempting to bait and punish defensive maneuvers like shielding, rolling, and spotdodging. Trotting upsmashes and dash grabs can be very characteristic of mid-range aggression by Pikachu. Forward aerial also makes an annoying addition to his arsenal, leaving Yoshi locked on many options, both ground and air-based. What makes it even more difficult is that Pikachu can stop almost on a dime and shift to a passive-aggressive mode or go straight into defensive spacing depending on how Yoshi reacts. Passive-aggression usually entails baiting ground approaches into carefully spaced forward smashes and pivot grabs. Defensive spacing options include down tilt (sometimes canceled into a retreating forward smash), neutral or retreating forward aerials, and retreating jumping jolts.

Oh, yeah...I forgot about the Quick Attack Cancel. By the way, this move is your friend. "Now he's off the deep end more than usual," you are probably saying to yourself. Pikachu's dreaded Quick Attack Cancel strikes fear into the hearts of many characters and rightfully so. It's quite potent against a good deal of characters and players. Here's the skinny on this technique, though. There's nothing to be worried about unless you've fallen and missed a tech (which is entirely your fault; don't let anybody tell you otherwise). I'd say out of most of the movement techniques in this game, it is one of the easiest to take advantage of. The weapon of choice for Yoshi here against this technique and against most of Pikachu's mid-range assaults is the ever-reliable pivot grab. Pivot grab stops aggressive Quick Attack Cancels cold and punishes reckless dashes in. In fact, grabbing in general tends to keep Yoshi's viability at mid-range in this matchup somewhat intact. From dash grabbing on passive-aggressive trots, to standing grabs for spotdodges, and pivots for expected aggression, Yoshi can and should rely on intelligent grabbing to keep him safe in this tumultuous area of the battle. This is the area where Pikachu has the easiest time and where he has the highest chance of shifting momentum his way; expect opposing Pikachu players to abuse this range to their utmost ability.

Close range is where Yoshi can really shine. However, this is still no walk in the park. The biggest part about this matchup that may be discouraging for many Yoshi players is that there is no rest for either player if both are playing intelligently and to their characters' strengths. In the Snake matchup, you can go easy when you spot your grab openings. In the Meta Knight matchup, you can go easy when you are waiting for Meta Knight to return to the edge or when you are chaingrabbing. In this matchup, even in your most advantageous area of the matchup, there is no rest. Yoshi is blessed with the ability to create an early momentum lead in the match very easily; keeping that lead as the battle shifts into different phases is key to winning matches and sets. Close range, Pikachu will be working on lots of obvious aggression. The reason it can still be potent is because of Pikachu's good priority, great attack speed, and the ability for his attacks to flow into each other naturally for the most part. One can expect lots of grabs, rapid jabs, forward tilts, dashing neutral airs, and the occasional upsmash. The only defensive maneuvers present are shield and spotdodge. Spotdodges will be followed up most likely by jabs or (more often) by downsmashing (which you should be prepared to DI at any point in time). Shield is followed up mostly back out of shield tactics like up aerial, back aerial (sparingly), and the dangerous neutral air.

Yoshi can lock down the close range fight with some very simple and effective tactics. Yoshi's most reliable and dangerous weapon at this phase in the battle is his jab. Single jabs tap on Pikachu's shield to prevent OoS retaliation on apply almost infuriating levels of pressure. Successful double jabs lead to highly successful dash grabs and dash attacks. Jabbing stops many of Pikachu's close range ground options safely on block and provides ridiculous amounts of disruption to any momentum he may have been trying to muster at this range. Aside from jabs, Yoshi has his entire tilt game at his disposal. While down tilt is probably the least useful because of its excruciating lag time, both forward and up tilt provide protection and offensive support, making Yoshi's job at this range considerably easier. Downsmash also makes a guest appearance here as a reliable tool to take advantage of a situation where you may not have any other options and can use it to force edgeguards or tech rolls. The sparingly used short hop down aerial can do massive shield damage and short hop rising neutral airs can give Yoshi lots of burst momentum and even some surprise KOs near the edge to take advantage of short ranged blunders by Pikachu. As Pikachu learns that close-range is not the best bet for this fight, the player will either lean toward extreme aggression or extreme defense. Pikachu can easily retreat and reset by Quick Attacking up and away to stabilize the momentum and try to spot some openings in your play. On the other hand, Pikachu can try to force his way through your options by abusing super high priority aerials that can take advantage of Yoshi's blind spots, hoping to either knock you into mid-range, off the edge, or into your shield...these are all places where Pikachu can begin to space himself into a comfortable range and attempt to fall into a rhythm. If, for some reason, you are getting forced out of close range, you should just run out and attempt to reset and long range. Rolling and excessive spotdodging or airdodging will get you punished in a match-altering way and you honestly can't afford to make simple mistakes like these; remember, if you have to get out of close range, don't walk (or roll)--run.

Now that I've talked about the three basic horizontal phases (long, mid, and close range), I'll discuss the two vertical phases (ground level and aerial level) and the three "tactical" phases (center stage, the edge, and platforms) of the match.

Yoshi's job in this match is to stay grounded. If you're a fan of Prince of Tennis, you can appreciate the mystifying effectiveness of Tezuka Zone (although I prefer the more comical movie version). The long and short of the technique is that its user stays in one place and is able to force returns of the tennis ball back to itself without using any unnecessary movements to hit the ball back. Similarly, Yoshi wants to stay on the ground and avoid unnecessary dashing, dodging, DRs, trots, or many other tricks. Jumping is also bad for Yoshi in this matchup similarly to how jumping is bad for Snake in his matchup against Yoshi--there are too many ways to take advantage once the character hits the ground to try to make unnecessary jumping a viable tactic or even an option. Movement to different parts of the stage or to different phases of the matchup is certainly necessary, but I'm talking about using movements that don't have a direct and significant purpose; those kids of movements have no place in this matchup. For instance, the Egg Toss Slide is a very fun and somewhat effective technique for Yoshi users who can see the value in retreating while applying some form of pressure. Should this technique be used when you suspect Pikachu will stay at mid-range or retreat to long range? No. You should use this technique when you KNOW Pikachu will either stay where he is or retreat. The onus is on Yoshi to keep himself as invulnerable as possible; Pikachu can quite literally camp out your movements and take advantage of them from a safe distance with his good speed and quick-starting moves. Likewise, Yoshi can wait out Pikachu's response to feints or movement by observing without leaving himself open while performing techniques that may or may not work and have a high chance of crippling his chances at keeping stock.

Aerial combat in this matchup is no joke. Know what you're getting into. This part of the match is tough. Similar to the matchup with Mr. Game and Watch, Yoshi really has no business being in the air with Pikachu at the same time. I don't care who you are or who you play, there is no real reason to justify Yoshi and Pikachu both jumping at each other at the same time. Pikachu will win most times hands down, not only because of his priority, but because of the flexibility of his aerials. He is well suited with many of his aerials to tackle more than one area surrounding his character with a single aerial. Yoshi does not have this luxury and is very restricted in which aerials he can use and when. He is further restricted by his environment and Pikachu's medium weight (which alters how Yoshi will have to use aerials as Pikachu's damage increases; lighter weight means more adjustments with fewer percent increments as the stock goes on). When Pikachu is in the air, you need to assess what the player is trying to accomplish. It's more than a simple, "Hey, he's using a back aerial." The depth of your thinking needs to see the purpose behind the moves. Is the back aerial forcing a particular type of DI? Maybe the Pikachu player knows you are unaware of how to DI the back aerial and is using that to rack up damage and chip away at your patience or confidence? Since this match is decided more by the players than the characters, you need to be able to see past the simplicity of the moves just being performed. There are lots of ulterior motives on both sides to using moves and forcing moves...Pikachu can use his aerials to great effect in this particular part of the battle and you can expect the best Pikachu players to abuse this relentlessly. Once you have ascertained the intent behind their aerials (other than to "do damage"), you can begin to examine your options. For example, if a dashing neutral air is meant to knock you into mid-range or into your shield, you can pre-empt this by meeting the Pikachu with a dashing upsmash of your own instead of getting pushed into a situation where you're not in control. You might trade hits, but Pikachu will learn sooner or later that you can, indeed, read into his strategies and that future attempts at anything will have to be accompanied by a Plan B or by failure.

I was going to go into the three tactical phases of the battle (especially the edge, one of the most intriguing parts of the match), but it really is five o'clock on the morning, so I am afraid I'll have to stop here. I will say one thing, however. I am no expert on ratios. I can't even decide if I want to call this matchup even. I will tell you, though, that I am confident in my statement that players decide this matchup. It is one of the few I've played where simple character, move, and stage attributes don't all come out to the final solution of which character stands the better chance of winning. This match relies heavily on patience, endurance, and persistence. It is with the utmost confidence that I will also declare the following: there are many ways to second guess one's self. Especially with the kooky engine we have for this game, indecisiveness can be quite common. However, if you have the same technical capability as another Pikachu player and this Pikachu player does not have the ability to read into your moves or recognize that they are being analyzed as a player during the match, you will always maintain the mental advantage, even if you find yourself second-guessing sometimes at the lower yomi of your opponent. As with boxers who do not have "weight" or conviction behind their punches, you will be able to tell when a player has not reached the stage where they have to look past the characters and examine the way the other player plays and you can, then, take full advantage of the match when you have taken the time to decipher your opponent.

That's all I have to say and I hope this was accurate and helpful for you all. I'll try to get someone I know to come in here and comment on what I've said to give his own perspective.

 

[DarkLeviathan89]

*snip*

I will have to read the whole thing later when I get a chance. For now, it looks like extremely useful advice, so thanks Shiri.

Edit: Alright, after giving Shiri's post another read, I really have nothing to disagree with in regards to the Pikachu matchup. I do have a few questions though.

"Pikachu does not outcamp Yoshi on horizontal stages". So FD came to mind at the start, but what other stages would you suggest against a camp-happy Pikachu?

I haven't played enough Pikachu's to know about quick attack cancelling (though i have tried it out for myself), but is it really not that big of a threat? I've heard that "good" Pikachus use it sparingly, but I'm a little surprised to hear that pivot grabs can be enough to deal with them.

Sorry for the stupid questions, lol. Again, good stuff, Shiri.

 

[Deleted member]

QACs in terms of what shiri is talking about its QAC locks i think, where you basically cant get up cuz ur gettin *****. QAC does help pikachu a lot in the matchup in terms of throwing you off guard with retreating QAC-> full hop tjolt, and surprise QAC-> thunder, but its use it mostly limited.

Good **** Shiri, amazing writeup.

You make brawl sound so complicated haha. Dis **** aint melee.

 

[Chaco]

"Week 10- Zelda"

We need someone to take over this thread if Mmac isn't gonna be around anymore.

 

[.Marik]

We are now talking about Pikachu... right?

Thread title needs to be updated.

 

[Snowstalker]

Has anyone heard from Mmac in the last week? I'm worrying that this thread will die out like the last one.

 

[illinialex24]

Guys, I just wanted you to know. I am not high atm.

 

[Chaco]

Alex what the hell? Hahahaha.

 

[illinialex24]

Alex what the hell? Hahahaha.

Yoshi should enjoy magical butterflies. And seriously, I'm not high. And it was kinda funny. Note, do not CP Jigglypuff to Norfair. She can outcamp you there fairly well even with his eggs. Just grab the ledges and ****.

 

[Chaco]

Lmao, whatever you say.

 

[Shiri]

By the way...

...for anybody who saw me on the live stream from my regional this past weekend, I hope you managed to see my demonstrations of how to fight Olimar and Jigglypuff. Especially Jigglypuff, who seriously cannot stand up to upsmash; as a matter of fact, for an entire stock, it was the only move I used and I still managed to KO with it.

Also, thanks for the guys who were able to tune in. Sorry I blew the one tournament match you got to see of me.

 

[illinialex24]

By the way...

...for anybody who saw me on the live stream from my regional this past weekend, I hope you managed to see my demonstrations of how to fight Olimar and Jigglypuff. Especially Jigglypuff, who seriously cannot stand up to upsmash; as a matter of fact, for an entire stock, it was the only move I used and I still managed to KO with it.

Also, thanks for the guys who were able to tune in. Sorry I blew the one tournament match you got to see of me.

Then the Jigglypuff wasn't honestly very good. Rising pound Yoshi and you'll punish his U-smash pretty well. And if you argue about that, realize every Yoshi at first said it was a ridiculous idea and now everyone says it has some potential. If you can U-smash spam for a stock, they aren't good.

 

[Metatitan]

Then the Jigglypuff wasn't honestly very good. Rising pound Yoshi and you'll punish his U-smash pretty well. And if you argue about that, realize every Yoshi at first said it was a ridiculous idea and now everyone says it has some potential. If you can U-smash spam for a stock, they aren't good.

Yeah i argued with shiri a little bit earlier but he didnt really listen to me. w/e if he tries that on me ill rest his usmash

 

[auroreon]

So I had a thought just now...

Theres a lot of great advice in this match-up thread about how to take on wach character. I think advice about how to take on indivicual characters is extremely valuable. In brawl, how well you know what works against the opposing character and what doesn't is a huge factor in deciding a match, possibly the biggest factor.
I find the problem most people have when making the jump from playing the game with a few thriends and taking part in competetive scene, is that they find they are only good against the limited number of characters they have had experience against and don't fare well against other characters.

So my proposal is we add something more than just the detailed summary of a matchup, its all very well writing done what works against a character but it can be difficult to translate what you read from the thread into the match.
If we were to add maybe a couple of example videos demonstrating exactly what works against a character, what to look out for and generally how to play against them.
Another (albeit unrealistic) idea is to have a couple of people who play well as a certain character and have experience playing them volunteer to put down their name on the thread so others needing experience playing said character can get in contact and set up a few games.

Just a few ideas anyway... with the disappearance of Mmac it seems unlikely they'll come to fruition. If you guys think its a good idea I could make another thread for this, but I'd rather it stayed in the matchup thread to avoid cluttering up the boards any further.

 

[DMG]

Is it Wario time? :D

 

[Shiri]

No.

 

[DMG]

No.

*Walks away like Wario*

Lol well just tell me when you do it again.

 

[Furbs]

lol DMG we ALL know your input.


DISADVANTAGE vs YOSHI!? not anymore!!! RUN THE CLOCK AIRDODGE AIRDODGE AIRDODGE GAME!!

lolololololololololololololololololol

<3

 

[Shiri]

If nobody else has any input on Pikachu, we should probably go to a new match we haven't done before.

I think Sockz posted an order for us to use about a week ago.

 

[Silent Beast]

Shouldn't we get input from the Pikachus before we move on?

 

[Snowstalker]

I'll ask again: Where is Mmac? Also, we should discuss Wario or Kirby.

Change Zelda to 40:60.