The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

[bigman40]

Bair also beats Din's Fire. and agreed Dsty.

 

[Master Roshi]

am i allowed in here?
<_<
>_>
>_<
zelda what?
edit: i hate her upsmash and over smash

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yoshi really lacks safe approaches against zelda. his uair is really painful, but I don't find yoshi hard. I mean, Zelda pretty handly stops most of his approaches and kos him pretty well with her high power moves but his ridiculous air speed and his surprising beefiness can cause some problems that keep zelda from really taking control of the matchup...

however, a zelda/sehik combo has this matchup under wraps. Sheik can wrack up damage on yoshi quite easily and, despite his weight, zelda can KO yoshi easily if sheik softens him up first. it's a clear advantage for zelda/sheik but only a slight advantage for her two counterparts alone.

 

[Tidycats29]

Yoshi really lacks safe approaches against zelda. his uair is really painful, but I don't find yoshi hard. I mean, Zelda pretty handly stops most of his approaches and kos him pretty well with her high power moves but his ridiculous air speed and his surprising beefiness can cause some problems that keep zelda from really taking control of the matchup...

however, a zelda/sehik combo has this matchup under wraps. Sheik can wrack up damage on yoshi quite easily and, despite his weight, zelda can KO yoshi easily if sheik softens him up first. it's a clear advantage for zelda/sheik but only a slight advantage for her two counterparts alone.

I've actually faced a very good zelda/sheik combo user

and he failed miserably with sheik
just for the fact i can approach sheik very easily and blah blah

with zelda things were far more difficult cause my options were more limited

i already said this match up is 6:4 zelda

if any zelda user wants to test the match up pm me
we can atleast see whats effective or not

but again i know the match up pretty well
and its 6:4

nothing less nothing more

 

[Mmac]

I say 6:4 too.

I recall the first time we discuss Zelda, there was a few people pressuring that the matchup was Neutral and was much overblown on the original matchup (By overblown, I mean 75:25 Zelda).

Personally, Zelda is my least played matchup, so I don't know anything about it...


Edit: Oh yes, here are my Stages for MetaKnight

Castle Siege
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokémon Stadium 1
Yoshi's Island
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Lylat Cruise

I strongly feel Castle Siege plays heavily into our favour. You can get rid of the lower statue immediately with 2 FH Dair's, which then, will have nothing to protect MetaKnight. If he chooses to play it safe, It is basically a "Shark attacking a Raft" scenario where you will get nothing but free hits on him. The 3rd Stage is self explanatory, and Yoshi can actually work fast enough to CG him off the stage transformations, if Yoshi gets him fast and isn't too far away.

Pokemon Stadium 1, I never had much problem with MetaKnights there. The Main platform is the next best thing for a flat stage as the Platforms are too small to effect it (And if that happens, you can just Usmash him off of it!) Two of the Stage Transforms, MetaKnight risks getting infinite on. As long as you can handle the stage changes, it is really not a bad stage to fight MetaKnight on at all, and is better than Yoshi's Island or Battlefield in my opinion.

Lylat I believe is the worst as it gives MetaKnight too much cover to work with. Plus the tilting can pressure our recovery. I died a few times on the lip because it tilted downwards (From fully upwards) during my DJAD

These are just my opinions though. You can't really get a straight answer from us, as it seems like everyone of us plays our Yoshi differently. The stages mostly depend on the Style the Yoshi uses

 

[Master Roshi]

zelda jeez, she does own
and its cool u guys are doing this for her ^_^

 

[Ryusuta]

You'll notice that I haven't made any commentary on the Zelda/Yoshi match-up. That's because this is one I'm actually not that familiar with, and I'm actively taking notes on from this. 4:6 does seem to make a lot of sense. I know that Zelda is one of the four "nightmare" matches I think of for Yoshi (Lucario, Marth, and Game & Watch being the other three), so I'm very interested in learning more about this one.

 

[Kataefi]

Try not to counterpick luigi's mansion. Unless eggs pass through the pillars you havn't got a chance at successfully approaching her if she camps near one of the bottom pillars well. The pillars make her hitboxes almost double in size and twice as long =O And she can constantly be refreshing her moveset on them as you approach.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I've actually faced a very good zelda/sheik combo user

and he failed miserably with sheik
just for the fact i can approach sheik very easily and blah blah

with zelda things were far more difficult cause my options were more limited

i already said this match up is 6:4 zelda

if any zelda user wants to test the match up pm me
we can atleast see whats effective or not

but again i know the match up pretty well
and its 6:4

nothing less nothing more

who was this zelda/sheik because there aren't a lot of good ones.

personally I do better against yoshi with sheik than zelda... I approach with sheik. Yoshi is heavy and easy to combo and needle camping > egg camping and egg roll. he's got to jumpt to approach and that's one of the easier things to beat out as long as you get used to it. Sheik is really good at racking up damage against most charcters and yoshi is not one of the harder characters to do it against.

zelda v. yoshi, 6:4 sounds fair because she's so **** frustrating to approach, but sheik has a much better time approaching yoshi so, if youshi ever gets ahead and forces the approach, it's not a bad thing for sheik. also, like I mentioned, while sheik can't really KO yoshi very well, sheik CAN pretty easily rack up damage and find an opening to transform. A zelda with completely fresh kill moves is a very threatening thing when you have a moderately high amount of damage. it's probably 65:34 for zelda/sheik fi you actually play one who is good with both charcters. the problem is, that's hard to find. Zelda mains in general are hard to find. While most of us use sheik too, it's hard to find one who isn't noticably better with one or the other. Anyhow, yeah, I've played this matchup a lot, but not against exceptionally good yoshis. I don't know exactly how it would play out at that level, but I know that I have a markedly easier time using both as opposed to one or the other. Which would make sense. it should only help to bring out sheik, and it does.

 

[Furbs]

My only input on this discussion is that i think Zelda is a highly overrated character.

I tried using zelda when the game first came out sense i used shiek in melee (and its not the same ) but the thing is; at first i would **** because none of the people i would play with actually knew how to fight her or how her hitboxes worked (although U-smash is amazing :D ) but once they learned how to get around her hitboxes they had a much easier time fighting her, I feel zelda as a character is a one trick pony in that the only thing she really has going for her is her amazingly deceptive hitboxes.

She's light, a large target, and has a terrible recovery ( IMO and I use yoshi )

In tournament play i have NEVER had trouble fighting a zelda and i credit that to the fact that i used to use her. however it could also be that i haven't fought a fantastic zelda.

At the same time zelda's priority can **** yoshi and bair out of shield sucks

overall I would give this a 5.5:4.5 zeldas favor (just because even I fall for her hitboxes and upsmash from time to time, its impossible to say you'll never get hit)

As for shiek
Shiek is plain trouble :O

I have played a player in college station twice in tournament and he'll come down to houston and stay with me sometimes that plays shiek, in tournament I haven't lost to his shiek (although we're 1-1 as he uses other characters) but at the same time his shiek is nothing short of spectacular. His name is light (i haven't asked him sense i just heard this) but apparently he used to team with forte (which makes sense because he mains meta now ) at any rate shiek is a real pain for yoshi, not unwinnable but just a pain (like lucario and G+W) like the player before me said yoshi is heavy which allows shiek to do a lot of tilt combos on him, and needles

its just a pain to approach shiek,it's a pain to be so close to shiek and its a pain to be at a distance from shiek. the only thing i feel yoshi has going for him is the fact that shiek actually has quite a bit of trouble K.O.ing with downsmash being nerfed so much, upsmash, gimps, and nair are shieks most reliable killing moves. however yoshi is a tough character to gimp given the fact that he can mix up his recovery, so that eliminates one of shieks options.

Shiek I would overall give a 6:4 in her favor and i certainly think shiek is underrated

Note: if any zelda shiek players have a problem with anything i typed or disagree, please PM me so we can talk maturely. usually disagreements on the boards lead to flame wars

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

My only input on this discussion is that i think Zelda is a highly overrated character.

she's towards the bottom end of the teir list... she's hardly overrated. Zelda doesn't play like most other characters. she's all about staying safe. god knows she has a lot to keep her safe.

 

[Poltergust]

We are not discussing Sheik, Furbs. =P

*has no input on Zelda due to lack of experience in the match-up*

 

[Kataefi]

There's a lot wrong with your post. If Zelda's being a one trick pony that's the fault of her player not being adaptive enough to the situation. Zelda's deceptive hitboxes, once learned, force you into your shield, and she should be shieldgrabbing once she's noticed this pattern, otherwise spotdodges will hardly work.

It's up to you to make the decision on whether to spotdodge or shield her attacks because they're all wildly different (UpSmash to Dtilt anyone?), and she can definitely captialise on your guessing by mixing things up and not playing a rigid defensive style many Zeldas enjoy playing. If you spotdodge, USmash comes, if you shield, I grab. An aggressive Zelda can definitely keep you on your toes but she has no reason to be aggressive against yoshi because of her priority stopping literally the majority of his approaches and outcamps him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

There's a lot wrong with your post. If Zelda's being a one trick pony that's the fault of her player not being adaptive enough to the situation. Zelda's deceptive hitboxes, once learned, force you into your shield, and she should be shieldgrabbing once she's noticed this pattern, otherwise spotdodges will hardly work.

It's up to you to make the decision on whether to spotdodge or shield her attacks because they're all wildly different (UpSmash to Dtilt anyone?), and she can definitely captialise on your guessing by mixing things up and not playing a rigid defensive style many Zeldas enjoy playing. If you spotdodge, USmash comes, if you shield, I grab. An aggressive Zelda can definitely keep you on your toes but she has no reason to be aggressive against yoshi because of her priority stopping literally the majority of his approaches and outcamps him.

yoshi's bair has the range to give her trouble from time to time.... otherwise, nothing he has can breach her defenses if he doesn't bait a whiff from her. since it's the only move he's got that'll get him though, it doesn't take long to learn to react to his bair with a OoS Usmash or a roll to Fsmash.

I hate it when people say zelda is a flat charcter. she's more one dimensional than her counterpart sheik, that's true, but that doesn't mean she's one dimensional. It's the fault of n00bish zeldas that she has that stigma. just because she can do okay without mixing it up doesn't mean she won't do better with more diverse gameplay. and it certainly doesn't mean that she CAN'T mix it up.

there's a grand lack of good zeldas out there so it's natural that most people don't know what she can do.

 

[Furbs]

there's a grand lack of good zeldas out there so it's natural that most people don't know what she can do.

i believe that, that's why i said that i feel it could be that i just haven't played any good zeldas. also,

Zelda's deceptive hitboxes, once learned, force you into your shield, and she should be shieldgrabbing once she's noticed this pattern, otherwise spotdodges will hardly work.

theres more options you can do than shield all her attacks and spot dodge especially sense in this matchup yoshi can't really approach her too well. he's going to have to bait her into his combos, in which case there is no need to shield. granted im not saying yoshi will never be in that situation, im just saying that zelda should be the one approaching in this matchup.

We are not discussing Sheik, Furbs. =P

lol i know, i just figured whynawt?

 

[Chaco]

I wanna move on soon. o_o

 

[Airborne]

i believe that, that's why i said that i feel it could be that i just haven't played any good zeldas. also,





theres more options you can do than shield all her attacks and spot dodge especially sense in this matchup yoshi can't really approach her too well. he's going to have to bait her into his combos, in which case there is no need to shield. granted im not saying yoshi will never be in that situation, im just saying that zelda should be the one approaching in this matchup.



lol i know, i just figured whynawt?

i'm not sure if zelda would want to approach though.... din's fire comes out just as, if not, faster than egg toss.... =\ so zelda can basically pressure yoshi into approaching with a stronger projectile... i hate din's fire with the burning intensity of 1k suns.... >.<

 

[Furbs]

its pretty easy to power shield lol but then again so are eggs,
this discussion is boiling down to what ifs, so i think this matchup should be wrapped up and we should move on

im fine with a 45:55-60:40 but i don't think many of us have fought a good zelda, and I'm sure that's the same case with most of the zelda players.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You hate dins fire, really?
I think Dins is a whopping bag of lol.
Why I dunno, it seems oddly lame to meh >.>
As an edgeguarding tool? Dont see it good there either, maybe thats because I can AD whenever I want as Yoshi so whatever.

About Z vs Y, I dont know much but,
can't yoshi Crawl underneath B-airs, and hit back with a utilt?
I dunno...I did that once so.... >.>

Edit: Match ups can be redone, as long as you get in the general area, no harm no foul really.

 

[RoyalBlood]

Zelda can wait for Yoshi to reach the ledge and then boom! Dsmash ---> No jump back for Yoshi ;3

Or she can also d-tilt lock him at the peak of his jump at the edge

And Down smash means death for Yoshi lawls jk but when hit at high percentages if Yoshi survives he'll be forced to recover low if he doesn't want to die by the lack of height >_>

The egg is kinda useless KINDA because Zelda can do a lot to stop it (Well everyone can lulz)

Yoshi Bomb will always get outprioritazed by U-smash whether he enters the first or last hitbox

Bias bias bias ^_^









not really......


definetely 60:40+ Zelda ^__^ Yoshi's not an Ike or a Diddy Kong

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

theres more options you can do than shield all her attacks and spot dodge especially sense in this matchup yoshi can't really approach her too well. he's going to have to bait her into his combos, in which case there is no need to shield. granted im not saying yoshi will never be in that situation, im just saying that zelda should be the one approaching in this matchup.

I was always under the impression that yoshi had terrible OoS options compared to the rest of the cast making him less capable than others of dealing with zelda's smashes... am I wrong?

 

[Kataefi]

If Zelda hyphen smashes in front of him he has no choice but to shield as his airdodge and air speed are not long and fast enough respectively to escape the massive hitbox and frame 6 speed of the attack.

Also, with his recovery, its possible to drop off the ledge at the same time he's rising over it and uair him. That or you can setup for a sweetspot or spike. Even if he doesn't die, he gets the sweetspot damage.

 

[Swordplay]

I know I'm buttin in but everything I said about the Link matchup is completely untrue and was based from online experience. I went to a tourney the other day and had the opportunity to play a few Yoshi mains and the match ups were COMPLETELY different offline.

So whatever summery I gave for Link earlier is completely trash. Like 90% of that stuff doesn't apply to offline. (I'll write another summery for you guys soon)

 

[Ryusuta]

Nice hyperbole. Also, way to contradict information without getting into specifics or saying what specifically is wrong about them.

 

[Furbs]

I was always under the impression that yoshi had terrible OoS options compared to the rest of the cast making him less capable than others of dealing with zelda's smashes... am I wrong?

yeah, but why just stand there and wait for her to approach and smash when we could just as easily turn around and pivot grab?

yoshi players (at least most good ones) aren't going to let you approach right next to them and smash, they'll always be moving so in most cases we'll either run away or get hit. and the ladder shouldn't be happenings too much with proper spacing. also yes yoshi does have of poor oos options, but whats stopping us from keeping our shield up if you upsmash? we can't be shield poked because it doesn't shrink and it's the strongest shield in the game (capable of surviving a fully charged shield breaker from marth). granted its still a terrible shield, but whats stopping us from punishing you after your up smash? we can still Grab you OOS and we could just wait for the attack to end and punish

If Zelda hyphen smashes in front of him he has no choice but to shield as his airdodge and air speed are not long and fast enough respectively to escape the massive hitbox and frame 6 speed of the attack.

LOL!!!! hyphen smashes are not garunteed hits. we'll see you coming and chances are we'll have enough time to do something (run away, pivot grab, shield [discussed above] frame 3 jab if we're feeling ballsy and you wanna discuss frames)

Also, with his recovery, its possible to drop off the ledge at the same time he's rising over it and uair him. That or you can setup for a sweetspot or spike. Even if he doesn't die, he gets the sweetspot damage.

sounds easier on paper, a lot of yoshis (from my experience fighting bwett, burntsockz, swoll and playing yoshi myself) will recover from the top (not all the time) in which case we could just airdodge

if I'm recovering from the bottom I usually throw some eggs before i double jump to make sure people don't edgeguard me and to clear the ledge. and even then if they still come after me i can still airdodge and keep the momentum of my second jump. (trust me I play a ness player around here every now and then, he ALWAYS thinks he can pkfire-spike me if im recovering from below but yoshi actually has a pretty safe second jump)

the problem with this is like saying "if you get snake off the ledge just grab him out of cypher and you win" while it's true and sounds easy it's rarely gonna happen because most good snakes that play on a tournament and competitive level will recover away from the stage (if below) and try to recover from the top (using c4's cypher w/e)

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah, but why just stand there and wait for her to approach and smash when we could just as easily turn around and pivot grab?

yoshi players (at least most good ones) aren't going to let you approach right next to them and smash, they'll always be moving so in most cases we'll either run away or get hit. and the ladder shouldn't be happenings too much with proper spacing. also yes yoshi does have of poor oos options, but whats stopping us from keeping our shield up if you upsmash? we can't be shield poked because it doesn't shrink and it's the strongest shield in the game (capable of surviving a fully charged shield breaker from marth. granted its still a terrible shield, but whats stopping us from punishing you after your up smash? we can still Grab you OOS and we could just wait for the attack to end and punish

yoshi's sheild takesd forever (comparitively) to drop. Usmash doesn't have THAT bad of cooldown. and zelda's Dsmash is beastly in speed. generally speaking, if you fully sheild her usmash, she'll dsmash you or nayru's you as soon as Usmash terminates. so, basically, you can't capitalize. no smash will come out fast enough to beat her and most of your other attacks are slow enough that they'll parry. your fastest attacks MIGHT hit her first, but they aren't going to really do a whole lot of damage, so it's hardly threatening.

as for your grab. it's nice and long.... and slow. and zelda has a lot of range. you won't grab her, realistically, unless she wiffs something and you grab at just the right range. and if you whif she'll punish you. I'm not saying your grab is worthless or even close to that. I'm just saying that your grab does NOT compromise her defensive game at all. it doesn't get to her easy enough. it CAN get to her, but it's not like game and watch's bair or marth's fair which she can't defend against well at all. yoshi's grab is harder to land, less threatening, requires better spacing, is less damaging and is more punishable if you miss/we dodge.

For yoshi's grab to truly "beat" zelda's defensive game, you'd have to grab us everytime we tried to do anything. and that simply won't happen. You'll grab zelda from time to time, but it's not such a great option for getting in on her that it gives yoshi any special edge.

In summary, his grab's a nice thing to have, but don't expect to get any zelda crying about it. you'll grab us from time to time, but you'll get punished at least as often unless you only grab when it's a sure thing... which it'll very rarely be.

(grab easily gets in on Zelda's usmash, but, really, why would she be Usmashing while you're on the ground in grab range?)

 

[Furbs]

this whole discussion is once again boiling down to theory smash,

I think the best way to accurately assess this matchup is to play (even if it is on wifi) I sent you a PM

if any other zelda players wanna play then PM me, after that we should come back here to discuss the matchup.

for now lets move on and ill write a summary later after we play

 

[Kataefi]

So Zelda vs Yoshi has gone from offline to wifi? ^^ I'll join the fun! Any UK yoshis? Major Lag spikes here we come ^^

I'm going to hyphen usmash you by surprise, it's a good OoS option or from a spotdodge if you're close. If you're falling from the air it makes it easier to hit with, so jumping and moving fast around can be a double-edged sword for you. But if you're grounded and it connects on yoshi has no option other than to shield it, same with all characters - except yoshi has a bad shield.

EDIT:: view the darkmusician vs yoshi set on youtube... great set. I believe it was 3-2 to dark. Round one here

 

[bigman40]

So Zelda vs Yoshi has gone from offline to wifi? ^^ I'll join the fun! Any UK yoshis? Major Lag spikes here we come ^^

I'm going to hyphen usmash you by surprise, it's a good OoS option or from a spotdodge if you're close. If you're falling from the air it makes it easier to hit with, so jumping and moving fast around can be a double-edged sword for you. But if you're grounded and it connects on yoshi has no option other than to shield it, same with all characters - except yoshi has a bad shield.

EDIT:: view the darkmusician vs yoshi set on youtube... great set. I believe it was 3-2 to dark. Round one here

Fingerpass vs Darkmusician is probably the best video that would show almost everything on the matchup.

 

[Kataefi]

It was fantastic! I'm a fan of both players ^^

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

this whole discussion is once again boiling down to theory smash,

I think the best way to accurately assess this matchup is to play (even if it is on wifi) I sent you a PM

if any other zelda players wanna play then PM me, after that we should come back here to discuss the matchup.

for now lets move on and ill write a summary later after we play

with the lag of my college's wifi, it'd likely be worse than even usual wifi for establishing a matchup number.

 

[Chaco]

...where the hell has Mmac been?

 

[bigman40]

Internet problems. He's been jumping on and off the chatroom

 

[Chaco]

Internet problems. He's been jumping on and off the chatroom

Oh, I see.

 

[Furbs]

with the lag of my college's wifi, it'd likely be worse than even usual wifi for establishing a matchup number.

lameeee

this is lame the whole matchup discussion is boiling down to theory bros brawl.

I think that a 45-55, 60-40 her favor is fine for now, but i really think we need more experience in the matchup. my experience only comes from me playing the character and playing a few Zelda's in tournament, not really consistent....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

it's not really degrading to theorycraft.

I've experience against yoshis. none of the big names but I play against yoshis fairly often. I'm not familiar with how he plays on the highest level, but I'm familiar with his moves and how they interact with zelda's moveset.... and it's not favourable for him. I suppose the possibilities for yoshi to get around zelda's moveset are theorycraft at the moment, but as it stands Zelda looks like she has a fair advantage. I could see that changing if all of the yoshi's theories for getting around zelda reliably pan out.. but I think that's a lot to hope for.

 

[Deleted member]

If you usmash our shield and dsmash, we can spotdodge oos and jab you.

 

[MrEh]

Fingerpass vs Darkmusician is probably the best video that would show almost everything on the matchup.

This is true, very true.

As most Zelda players know, DarkMusician is a very talented Zelda main. As for Fingerp@ss, he has a pretty mean Yoshi. The best thing about the two is that they play each other all the time. Both DarkMusician and Fingerp@ss know the matchup very well, so it's a perfect example of how the matchup would go if both players are familiar with their opponent's character. Seriously, both of them go pretty even nearly all the time.

It was fantastic! I'm a fan of both players ^^

You should see the kind of stuff we say when we're playing. It's pretty hilarious.

Eat Eggs!!

Stop it!

Eggs!

Eggs!

Eggs!

AAGGH!!!!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you usmash our shield and dsmash, we can spotdodge oos and jab you.

and if we don't Dsmash we can punish your spotdodge. and yoshi's jab is hardly anything to write home about. Zelda's Dsmash packs a punch. it's definitely worth risking.

 

[MrEh]

and if we don't Dsmash we can punish your spotdodge. and yoshi's jab is hardly anything to write home about. Zelda's Dsmash packs a punch. it's definitely worth risking.

Yoshi does have the best spot dodge in the game...

It might be difficult.