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The NEW Yoshi Matchup Thread V2|Week 10 - Zelda

Metatitan

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Even though the discussion back at the jiggs boards didn't go so well I'll be happy to say a few things. First off the matchup is 4:6 yoshi IMO and there's really not much to say considering you guys have said most of it lol. Pound is not the glory move all the jigglypuffs made it out to be (its only useful for punishing IMO) and as for mmac's pivot camping... I simply didn't go for him and waited for him to spam eggs so i could move in and punish ;o. I didn't read all the paragraph orion wrote but I will say yoshi has more options, killing potential and will probly just beat jiggs in the long run (that's not to say jiggs cannot win). However this matchup doesn't usually involve slaughter like G&W (go burn) does with many chars. 4:6 is probably an accurate estimate although it may be 35:65 when future evidence comes.
 

Ryusuta

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Wait... 4:6? Don't you mean 6:4? 4:6 means you think he's at a disadvantage.
 

Yikarur

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For Zelda there is written nearly neutral match up but Zelda is my worst match up ever.
I don't have problems with GaW or anything.
But Zelda ***** me a lot <_> (It should be reversed :p)

Anyone here with experience in this match up? because I'm so despaired that I'm going to use GaW in the future if I don't get any help to get it .__.
 

Nul

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For Zelda there is written nearly neutral match up but Zelda is my worst match up ever.
I don't have problems with GaW or anything.
But Zelda ***** me a lot <_> (It should be reversed :p)

Anyone here with experience in this match up? because I'm so despaired that I'm going to use GaW in the future if I don't get any help to get it .__.
I hear you, I play enough of both and the ratings feel reversed, I watch out for GaW's F/Bairs and Dtilt, but Zelda has more: N/sideB's, F/Uair, and U/side Smashes.

It's funny, the last Zelda I faced apparently swapped from Yoshi v my Yoshi and said "I don't care about cancels and match-ups." Well, it seems to work, swapping GaW <-> Zelda ratings.
 
D

Deleted member

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I disagree, zelda isnt too hard. Both of them should be slightly disadvantaged, not too bad.
 
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If side b is giving you trouble on stage, dodge it.

Edit because its the best advice evar
 

DarkLeviathan89

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If side b is giving you trouble on stage, dodge it.
Din's Fire is not a problem at all, lol. I usually use nair and it can negate it if I don't screw up. Even if I'm offstage, an air dodge is usually enough to deal with it.

I just find Zelda hard to approach. Against the one I play regularly, bairs don't usually cut it. Usmash and fsmash seem to outprioritize most of what Yoshi have. Dsmash isn't as much of a problem, but lightning kicks are just a pain, especially since the one I face has really good accuracy with them.

Maybe I just need to find a good counterpick for Zelda, lol.
 
D

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The thing with lightning kicks is they are so...obvious. They are coming, zelda has no safe options besides lightning kick in that area. Just space outside her area, watch for dash attacks, you dont need to approach right into her, full hop bait an usmash or fsmash then punish, you cant safetly charge at her smashes(well you can grab), but they leave her open if you bait it. Her recovery is utter garbage, always capitalize on it.
 

DarkLeviathan89

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I'm learning how to better defend against those lightning kicks, I guess I just need to be less aggressive and more of a punisher. I'll have to keep that in mind next time I play my roommate, which will probably be in a few weeks or so.
 

Metatitan

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I thought we were on jigglypuff? Anyways regardless the jiggs boards put it as 45:55 so if theres anything wrong with that (i kinda see it as 40:60 not but close enough) go discuss it with them.
 

bigman40

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Levi, going against Zeldas you want to space and punish her attacks. You don't want to get caught in that Usmash, or get smacked by her aerials. I played the matchup a little, and after about 3 matches, I completely changed my style from aggressive to defensively punishing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUmxxil8TpA

Just try to bait things out, or space her into bad spots. You want to stay JUST outside of her range and punish when you can. Afterwards, reset the field and go or it again.
 

Ryusuta

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I thought we were on jigglypuff? Anyways regardless the jiggs boards put it as 45:55 so if theres anything wrong with that (i kinda see it as 40:60 not but close enough) go discuss it with them.
Umm... yeah. There is LOT wrong with it, but the last time we discussed it with them, they started ranting and raving, got pissy, and locked the topic.

Rest assured, it's nowhere NEAR a 4.5:5.5 matchup. Like the Men's Warehouse guy, I guarantee it.
 

Ryusuta

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Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. :)

The match-up weighs pretty heavily in Yoshi's favor.
 

DarkLeviathan89

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Levi, going against Zeldas you want to space and punish her attacks. You don't want to get caught in that Usmash, or get smacked by her aerials. I played the matchup a little, and after about 3 matches, I completely changed my style from aggressive to defensively punishing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUmxxil8TpA

Just try to bait things out, or space her into bad spots. You want to stay JUST outside of her range and punish when you can. Afterwards, reset the field and go or it again.
The spacing on that last usmash was ridiculous...

Thanks for all the Zelda tips, guys. I still hate fighting her, but hopefully now I'll be a little more prepared, lol.
 

PKNintendo

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If it's truly 7-3 what does Yoshi have on Jiggs. (curious)

Still morning the loss of Yoshi being even against MK
 

Ryusuta

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If it's truly 7-3 what does Yoshi have on Jiggs. (curious)
Up smash! :laugh:

Seriously, though... this is as good a set of reasons as any, but you should also look back at both discussions in full to get the whole idea:

I wasn't trying to make out his pivot to be an unbeatable, OMGWTFHAX type move, either. I'm just saying that between his pivot grab, his ETS, and his up smash, it's a little difficult for Jigglypuff to effectively space back airs against him.

For instance, if she deliberately tried to fake me out in order to bait a counter, I can more often than not ETS back a ways instead of attacking, which opens up some movement and attack options for me.

Coming in high tends to be risky because of Yoshi's up smash, and her Pound is also something to be reconsidered for the reasons Mmac outlined.

I'm certainly not saying this is a no-win situation for Jigglypuff. There's certainly always options for every player. Even Donkey Kong has options against King DeDeDe. For me, it's a matter of risk assessment. Who is more likely to come out on top, given all of the possible variations on a scenario as well as what coming out on top nets that character in terms of damage and positioning.

For instance, say she gets a little too gutsy and tries tapping me with a back air. I see her coming in at a nice angle for it, so I go for an up smash. If Jigglypuff comes out on top, she lands a back air and puts me in a brief stun, and can either attempt to back air me again, which would put us in the same scenario, but with a diminished back air on her part, or change her angle and do something else.

Not a bad scenario, but let's look at the alternative. Say I hit the up smash. She's gotten hit with a smash attack, she's flung upwards and outwards at an angle. Now she has to start either falling down on me (which she does very slowly), or she has to move away from me. Either way it buys me time to reposition, Egg Toss her, or even attempt an up air (or fake an attempt at it). Strategically speaking, my coming out on top in this relatively even scenario has a more significant impact on the match-up.

I would put it to you that the majority of the situations in this particular match-up work this way, making it extremely difficult for Jigglypuff to get the upper hand. Again, it's not to say that she can't do so, but as they say, she has to work harder for it. When you take into account that in an approaching situation, Yoshi has better options than her (usually, though this can be context-dependent), in an up-close confrontation they have about the same number of options, and that in a KO situation, Yoshi has more potential for landing that final hit, I would say that it is mathematically weighted strongly in Yoshi's favor.
 

Ryusuta

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Nah, we've actually been discussing Zelda a lot from the looks of things.
 

Metatitan

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let's get a decent summary on jigglypuff first Orion. Don't try and make it seem like she's defenseless against us and then move on to another char.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: You ladies need to calm down. Let's wait for a writeup and then move on, it's not that serious.
 

Metatitan

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:yoshi: You ladies need to calm down. Let's wait for a writeup and then move on, it's not that serious.
I second that notion. The jigglypuffs wrote it as 45:55 (i say 40:60 but idc either way) so just write it as 45:55 or 40:60 or w/e u think it is and discuss it with them later.
 

Yikarur

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My Prayers prays are listened xD

Zelda is my hardest match up so far.

Any kind of air approach are destroyed by her upsmash.
You can't force an approach because she outcamp us. (Din > Eggs)
And when you approach you get it by this multihit smashes.

but when Zelda is in the air she can do less against Yoshi.
In the Air she seems to be in a bad position until he is back on the ground.

also: As long as Zelda is standing on the ground she has a big advantage against Yoshi.
 

Metatitan

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Just watch scat's video against a zelda to learn the matchup better. I'd still say the matchup is about 40:60 tho... never will I settle for 50:50 (although i don't think anyone was going in that direction).
 

Metatitan

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For A Yoshi/Jiggs Matchup.. 7:3 Yoshi's favour.
What kind of jigglypuffs are u guys fighting anyways?
While it certainly isn't at all in jigg's favor, the matchup isn't as horrendous as you think or want it to be. An example of 7:3 is ganondorf, where you can camp him, cg him, 0-death him, outpriortize him etc. You can outcamp jiggs but she holds the higher priority in this matchup with pound (and no pound is not some wonder move and i never use it to approach unless i know they are using a laggy attack). Enough of this matchup u guys I think its a pretty solid 4:6 yoshi's favor and not the 3:7 u all think it is.
 

Ryusuta

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Trust me. If we keep bringing anecdotes into this anyway, I've mained Jigglypuff in the first two games and I still use her quite a bit now. I've played very dedicated and talented Jigglypuff players. I know every single aspect of this match-up like you wouldn't believe. She is NOT in good shape against Yoshi at all. I've gone into extreme detail both here and on the other board. Just take my word for it, Jigglypuff is really bad against Yoshi.

If you have any questions about specific aspects of the match-up, I would be more than happy to go into them with you.
 
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Id watch it, meta knows his **** =P

But i agree with orion XD
 
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