The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[DanGR]

hmm... you can't have the advantage over Sheik/Zelda is you have the disadvantage v Zelda. Correct?

 

[MK26]

hmm... you can't have the advantage over Sheik/Zelda is you have the disadvantage v Zelda. Correct?

First off, that's the rating in the Sheik boards

Sheik is only useful in any matchup if she can combo and gimp; due to Kirby's floatiness, she can do neither. Generally a Sheik will get the opponent up to ~100% damage and switch to Zelda...Sheik has huge difficulty getting enough damage on Kirby before being gimped/outright killed by Kirby. If you haven't gotten your opponent to Zelda kill %'s with Sheik before dying, the opportunity to switch may not present itself after your respawn invincibility frames wear off. And if you can't switch, your opponent isn't dying until 150%.

That's why Kirby has the advantage.

Now, back to G&W. U-air can slow, but not completely stall, Stone. It's still annoying, though.

 

[DanGR]

Using Sheik/Zelda is using the best of Sheik and Zelda. The best of each in this matchup would consist of Zelda only and switching to Sheik and then back to Zelda during star KOs to refresh her attacks. That's Sheik/Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda has the advantage over Kirby. I'll bring it up in the Sheik boards as well.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Zelda is a hard match against Kirby, Shiek may be an even match up, or in Kirby's favor. I'm not too sure about Sheik, but I know Zelda gives Kirby a hard time since she is such a defensive character she can nullify Kirby's approach quite well, with her clear out move down smash, and even if you dodge dins fire it puts you in a desireable positional trap where Zelda wants you. Especially on platform levels like battlefield, Zelda owns that stage hard, so take Zelda to FD, rainbow cruise, jungle japes. Take her to stages that have high ceilings so Kirby wont get star KOed as easily, and no platforms where she can hide for cover under.

 

[Percon]

Kirby VS GAW is a tougher matchup, though not a completely discouraging one.

Firstly, grabs are really important here. It's hard to follow up even simple fthrow -> uair combos on GAW, but any little bit of damage counts, especially since GAW is so light. Sometimes I like to downthrow -> utilt then just wait out his Dair, then punish.

I'll tell you all right now that his dair is nothing to be afraid of. If he isn't careful that's how you'll be getting most of your kills actually. Just walk away then fmsmash behind you (ftilt if he isn't in killing %s)... a really simple concept that works with lot of characters but nobody seems to use too much against the dair-happy GAWs.

Back to grabs - while in this particular matchup his dthrow ALONE is more useful than your throws overall, you're going to be landing grabs much easier do to the fact you can walk into GAW's lingering hitboxes with your shield up for an easy grab (you need to be carefull of course). As I said, every bit of % counts against him. For this reason mixing up SH aireals with a neutral B is a nice, free 10% (never SWALLOW him, remember) Also it's harder for him to land a grab then you; abuse that fact. Also, learn to tech his dthrow. They may chase with usmash, be weary.

Ftilt is really good here. It's a good poke that adds on much-needed %. It's a good way to punish his less-laggy aireals if you didn't predict in time for a big punish and sends him at a nice angle (try following up with a dash attack at low % on occasion).

You know what? You can punish with a jab flurry too. Haven't tried it out much but should work well enough. It's quick and safe once you get the flurry started.

Utilt clanks with a lot of his stuff surprisingly, you can spam it in moderation in close quarters. Utilt > nair might be fun (you don't want bair stale here)

Fsmash wrecks GAW at early percents if you can find an opening.

GAW's bair is troublesome, though thankfully, it's a highly telegraphed move. There will be times where you won't be in a good position to punish it - don't try, just get out of the way. If GAW uses it a bit too high or at an inopportune moment, roll behind him and punish accordingly. Don't get greedy, an ftilt will do, and doing it consistently will discourage them from bair use.

The most trouble will be off the stage. GAW is very difficult to edgeguard. His upB gives him almost unfair invincibility, and he can camp the ledge like a champ. Don't pursue him offstage unless you absolutely must. If you're feeling risky, try the stone, which goes right through that blasted Nair of his, and interrupts his upB on occasion.

Keep your bair fresh here; your aireals aren't so useful vs GAW, it's more about tilts IMO and bair can function as a killer on the featherweight GAW. If you're on BF kill with uthrow sometimes, he only needs to be at like just over 100, IIRC

Watch out for:

-GAW Dtilt : Effing good move, most GAWs don't realize how broken it is. Try to make him forget he has it. It has 0 cooldown lag, IIRC. The best thing to do would be to jump over him and dair upon landing, or if you don't think you'll make it in time, suck him in when he raises his sheild expecting an aireal.

-GAW Nair: Annyoing, though again, most GAWs don't see how good it is. Try and SDI away if you're caught in it, otherwise he might get you in another one right after.

- Dthrow - Don't get grabbed. Though, that's actually kind of easy vs GAW

-Smashes - VERY powerful, they rival your Fsmash and may even surpass it in terms of power. Thankfully kind of easy to powershield, and you'll have to in order to punish (dsmash especially)

Stages:

Battlefield is a solid choice.

I personally like taking them to pictochat if it's legal. GAW likes killing up, and you like killing to the side. Also, the low edges will make it awkward to use his UPB when recovering (and we don't want him using that)

That's my advice for now.

 

[Asdioh]

Good post, Percon.

Using Sheik/Zelda is using the best of Sheik and Zelda. The best of each in this matchup would consist of Zelda only and switching to Sheik and then back to Zelda during star KOs to refresh her attacks. That's Sheik/Zelda, and Sheik/Zelda has the advantage over Kirby. I'll bring it up in the Sheik boards as well.

If the person is using Sheik, then we have 60-40, 50-50, or whatever the number is.

If the person is using Zelda, then it's again, whatever that matchup is rated.

Are you trying to tell me that a pro Kirby will never, ever, fight a pro Sheik? Only Zelda? :/ I don't see it. Some people simply like to play Sheik, or Zelda, and not both.

Also, I don't see how Zelda has an advantage over Kirby. Her smashes may be broken, and Din's Fire spam may be annoying, but you can get around these. Anyone know a good Zelda that would be willing to play me on wifi?

Spoiler

Yes I know wifi sucks.

hey guys, can we start discussing ddd soon? he's the only character i have trouble with the most and i seriously wished he wasn't in brawl (or at least not broken).

Mayhaps! But serious trouble with Dedede as Kirby? I feel like Kirby is one of the best characters to fight him with. What are you having trouble with?
(watch out for his utilt :O)

 

[Retroend]

Good post, Percon.

If the person is using Sheik, then we have 60-40, 50-50, or whatever the number is.

If the person is using Zelda, then it's again, whatever that matchup is rated.

Are you trying to tell me that a pro Kirby will never, ever, fight a pro Sheik? Only Zelda? :/ I don't see it. Some people simply like to play Sheik, or Zelda, and not both.

Also, I don't see how Zelda has an advantage over Kirby. Her smashes may be broken, and Din's Fire spam may be annoying, but you can get around these. Anyone know a good Zelda that would be willing to play me on wifi?

Spoiler

Yes I know wifi sucks.

Mayhaps! But serious trouble with Dedede as Kirby? I feel like Kirby is one of the best characters to fight him with. What are you having trouble with?
(watch out for his utilt :O)

lets see, his range with his tilts, grabs and smashes. his aerials, his long duration air dodge and spot dodge, and his heavyness and speed of his attacks. did i mention his ridiculous range? and being spot grabbed. and the the stupid waddle dees and waddle doos. and of couse his overall gayness. thats all i can think of. for now. i hate ddd and sakurai (you were bias, you know you were!)

 

[DanGR]

Good post, Percon.

If the person is using Sheik, then we have 60-40, 50-50, or whatever the number is.

If the person is using Zelda, then it's again, whatever that matchup is rated.

Are you trying to tell me that a pro Kirby will never, ever, fight a pro Sheik? Only Zelda? :/ I don't see it. Some people simply like to play Sheik, or Zelda, and not both.

If the Sheik player refuses to counterpick in-game by switching to Zelda it's only because they're
1.stubborn, or
2.they're an idiot.

Some people use Sheik/Zelda (IN ONE MATCH) using each other's strengths to carry them through the battle. (most often Sheik to rack and Zelda to kill)

That wasn't the point I was trying to make when I first entered this thread though.

 

[Percon]

^ Some people don't like using Zelda, remember.

Also, I think Kirby vs DDD is closer to even, but we'll talk about DDD when the time comes.

 

[psykoplympton]

I beleive what percon said on the the page before this one is true. and when you really look at how gaw works, his movements and such, are kind of wierd and blocky. theres 2 animations for fsmash, the charge and the smash, they go from one angle to another with nothing inbetween. same with dsamsh and usmash. these patterns once you learn them can be overcome. you learn to live longer. and punish those patterns.

 

[CaliburChamp]

I think most Shiek players switch to Zelda vs Kirby in the match up because they know Zelda has an easier time against Kirby than Sheik does. That probably explains why my Kirby hasn't fought hardly any Sheiks. But I do remember one match where I was comboing Sheik like crazy with my Kirby, that after the stock I took off him he transformed into Zelda and she gave Kirby a harder time trying to get in range to attack.

The DDD matchup is good where he is. Slight disadvantage against Kirby. He is very easily comboed.

 

[Asdioh]

If the Sheik player refuses to counterpick in-game by switching to Zelda it's only because they're
1.stubborn, or
2.they're an idiot.

Some people use Sheik/Zelda (IN ONE MATCH) using each other's strengths to carry them through the battle. (most often Sheik to rack and Zelda to kill)

That wasn't the point I was trying to make when I first entered this thread though.

Then I suppose we can say this:

If/when the player is using Sheik, Kirby is at a (60/40 advantage)

If/when the player is using Zelda, Kirby is at a (60/40 disadvantage)

Or whatever we agree upon for the numbers.

 

[MK26]

Well...so much for G&W discussion.

I'm gonna change the rating back to 40-60, any disagreements?

Also, we haven't discussed his tilts much. Any info?

I'll update later tonight, but if anybody wants to summarize a section or two for me, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[M.J.B]

Then I suppose we can say this:

If/when the player is using Sheik, Kirby is at a (60/40 advantage)

If/when the player is using Zelda, Kirby is at a (64/40 disadvantage)

Or whatever we agree upon for the numbers.

don't you mean 64/36?

 

[Asdioh]

don't you mean 64/36?

oops.

As for G&W tilts...they spam dtilt, uptilt and ftilt are rarer but have good priority and stuff.

Matchup summary:

Spoiler

g&w can diaf >_>

 

[MK26]

^^ but...he has teh pHir3 in his F-smash!

lol updated...I was thinking of discussing Zelda this week, but we can do D3 if you all want...or Zelda/Sheik...and we need to a rating for Pokemon Trainer overall.

Opinions?

 

[Scrubs]

Well...so much for G&W discussion.

I'm gonna change the rating back to 40-60, any disagreements?

Also, we haven't discussed his tilts much. Any info?

I'll update later tonight, but if anybody wants to summarize a section or two for me, it would be greatly appreciated.

D-tilt comes out after dair quite alot...

It can hit you out of your up-b as you try to grab the ledge

 

[MK26]

You've already started, so why not just go with D3?

Week #5...

Character: King Dedede

Don't touch the ******* Gordo!

Difficulty rating: 55-45

GO!

 

[Lord Viper]

Ok I'll start.

Advantages:

-Can't be chain grabbed or grabbed combo like most of the chracters that King Dedede can do that to
-Easily Swollowcided
-Since He's a big chracter he can be combo'd
-Better Air game than King Dedede
-Better Recovery
-Faster attacker

Disadvantages:

-King Dedede has better reach in ground game
-King Dedede is a heavy chracter with good recovery make's it hard to gimp him off the stage
-King Dedede has better reach when it come's to grabs and attacks
-Better Up-B recovery than Kirby's
-Stronger Attacks than Kirby's


Edit: I'll change it to 55:45 now.

 

[Scrubs]

70:30 No way...

- Even though he can't chain grab you, he can tech chase
- Its fairly easy for DDD to grab Kirby because waddle dees will force you to approach
- His Bair out ranges and out prioritizes all of Kirby's aerials
- Bthrow does 16%
- Up tilt kills Kriby at 85% off the lower battlefield platform (No DI)

I reckon 50:50

 

[Lord Viper]

Yea, your right, 70:30 does seem too high. I'll just say, 55:45 as that, Kirby has a little more advantage than King Dedede does to him.

 

[Retroend]

wow thanks guys. i'm really gonna need this. anyway here are some things i think of ddd

advantages
1. he can spam those feaking waddle dees. i seriously hate them and i'm forced to deal with not 1, but 3 fighters. and because of those distractions, you can be easily grabbed.
2. his aerials have long range. its ridiculous. and they are very quick and too strong in my opinion.
3. tilts are long and strong. you can hardly get close to without being grabbed.
4. the range of his grab is so broken. he has in my opinion, the biggest grab range and i seriously think that its too broken.
5. his overall gayness is too much. he's the gayest character in brawl with jigglypuff trailing behind him and marth trailing behind jigglypuff.

disadvantages
1. he's a big charater, so he's a big target.
2. he can be comboed easily on the ground, not in the air.
3. smash attacks are on the slow side.
4. he can be easily grabbed sometimes.
5. although difficult, if you spike him correctly, you can also footstoll jump him, making harder for him to recover, or results in a stock.
6. if done right, he is really vulnerable to my retro combo, which by then, i can spike him to death.

thast all i have. i seriously hate him and i wish he was never in brawl in the 1st place. t!mmy, if you see this, can you help us? you play ddd after all. please help us and me cause ddds is the #1 character i have a hard time dealing with. and this proves overall that sakurai was bias with him after all. (stupid wuss...)

 

[~Gonzo~]

I believe 55-45 DDD may get combo'd easily by Kirby but DDD can use his grabs to throw Kirby away when he gets close and use his other moves to space him well also the tech chase is deadly for Kirby.

 

[M.J.B]

They both have their advanteges and disadvanteges. DDD and kirby can be combo'd to death by the other in equal chance so... I say 50-50

 

[~Shao~]

I'll write something later but I agree it's 55-45.

 

[Asdioh]

eh. If anything it's in Dedede's favor. They can both inhalecide. Dedede has better range on most of his attacks. His bair is better (I think)

I'll go with 50-50 for now, but if Uptilt is nearly as overpowered as Snake's (people are always talking about Dedede's uptilt) then I'll put it 55-45 D3.

With that said, can anyone give me some quick advice against Diddy Kong? I don't think I've ever beaten a decent Diddy. The banana spam is too much, especially on wifi.

 

[Retroend]

hey come on now, lets not change to another character now. we've barely begun. lets keep discussing ddd some more and then we'll get to diddy.

 

[SmileyStation]

eh. If anything it's in Dedede's favor. They can both inhalecide. Dedede has better range on most of his attacks. His bair is better (I think)

I'll go with 50-50 for now, but if Uptilt is nearly as overpowered as Snake's (people are always talking about Dedede's uptilt) then I'll put it 55-45 D3.

With that said, can anyone give me some quick advice against Diddy Kong? I don't think I've ever beaten a decent Diddy. The banana spam is too much, especially on wifi.

Id say D3's up-tilt is less dmg than snakes, but the same amount of knockback. But its a hell of a lot easier to dodge than snakes because the hitbox isnt ******** overpowered like it. I went to a tourney a few weeks back against a very good D3, and I managed to dodge all of the Up-tilts he threw at me. This guy wasnt a bad player by any means either, but i still ended up at a loss 1-2 when he played defensive.

 

[SheerMadness]

I'd say its prolly around 50-50.

Vulcan jabs are amazing against DDD. He can't shield grab them, they rack up a lot of damage, and also push him out of range. Also if DDD tries to up b onto the stage without canceling you can hammer in mid up b quite easily.

I think if DDD didn't live so long Kirby would have the advantage but a smart/good DDD is a pain in the *** to kill.

 

[~Shao~]

Character: King Dedede
Difficulty rating: from 45-55 to 55-45, but I think it's 55-45
Overview: They try to take advantage of their superior range, projectiles (**** you waddle dee's), awesome grab range, however, Kirby's attacks are generally faster, so they probably will be defensive.
Pros: with proper DI, King Dedede can live past 200% due to his weight and recovery, great range on his attacks and grabs, 16% b-throw, projectile spam and out of the heavy weights he's the hardest to "combo".
Cons: heavy weight, slow smashes, predictable recovery, big target and can't chaingrab Kirby
Watch out for: u-tilt, great kill move and fast; f-smash, one mistake = dead; GORDOS, they always seem to get those when you don't expect it.
How to win: abuse grab combos, but be careful because of his grab range, space yourself with f-tilt and d-tilt, always space your b-air and f-air, try to juggle him with u-air but watch out for his d-air, never try to beat his u-air with your d-air. Save your f-smash for the kills, or else he'll probably live up to 180%, depending on his DI. Throw out some autocanceled n-airs to vulcan jab to rack up damage and final cutter spam to throw them off. Oh, and you can get aggresive with your edgeguarding, but watch out for the swallowside ;D
Spit out or Swallow?: I doesn't matter really, I think there's no diference between them besides King Dedede better range. If possible, spit him under the stage because his aerial movement is slower than yours and it's easily stage spiked.
What NOT to do: spam f-smash and approach recklessly, or you might get f-smashed.
Stages: Jungle Japes, high ceiling and water gimps and I personally like Frigate Orpheon.
Synopsis: Space yourself, get aggresive if possible, but if he start spamming, get defensive and let him approach you. And play carefully, cause one mistake can make you lose a stock.

 

[MK26]

Character: King Dedede
Difficulty rating: from 45-55 to 55-45, but I think it's 55-45
Overview: They try to take advantage of their superior range, projectiles (**** you waddle dee's), awesome grab range, however, Kirby's attacks are generally faster, so they probably will be defensive.
Pros: with proper DI, King Dedede can live past 200% due to his weight and recovery, great range on his attacks and grabs, 16% b-throw, projectile spam and out of the heavy weights he's the hardest to "combo".
Cons: heavy weight, slow smashes, predictable recovery, big target and can't chaingrab Kirby
Watch out for: u-tilt, great kill move and fast; f-smash, one mistake = dead; GORDOS, they always seem to get those when you don't expect it.
How to win: abuse grab combos, but be careful because of his grab range, space yourself with f-tilt and d-tilt, always space your b-air and f-air, try to juggle him with u-air but watch out for his d-air, never try to beat his u-air with your d-air. Save your f-smash for the kills, or else he'll probably live up to 180%, depending on his DI. Throw out some autocanceled n-airs to vulcan jab to rack up damage and final cutter spam to throw them off. Oh, and you can get aggresive with your edgeguarding, but watch out for the swallowside ;D
Spit out or Swallow?: I doesn't matter really, I think there's no diference between them besides King Dedede better range. If possible, spit him under the stage because his aerial movement is slower than yours and it's easily stage spiked.
What NOT to do: spam f-smash and approach recklessly, or you might get f-smashed.
Stages: Jungle Japes, high ceiling and water gimps and I personally like Frigate Orpheon.
Synopsis: Space yourself, get aggresive if possible, but if he start spamming, get defensive and let him approach you. And play carefully, cause one mistake can make you lose a stock.

:D

<3 Shao

"If he starts spamming, get defensive" - lolno

Jungle Japes can backfire hardd...

 

[CO18]

I wrote this in the other thread, it isn't much..

IMO its 55:45 For DDD.

Maybe neutral, at most 55/45 for kirby.

All you really need to do is just space kirby. Ftilt him, if he starts spamming bair, then you start spamming bair or shield drop it to ftilt because if the kirby spaces his bair right you wont be able to shield grab it most of the time.


And once he tries to get in just grab him and keep him away. Its really not that hard, I actually find it harder for kirby to return to the stage vs ddd then vice versa.

Kirby dies way before DDD, fsmash can kill DDD pretty low%'s but you know it's coming and it's easy to predict/punish.

Either way, it's pretty neutral

I think japes is good for kirby in this matchup btw.

Also lol, spit or swallow

 

[~Shao~]

:D

<3 Shao

"If he starts spamming, get defensive" - lolno

Jungle Japes can backfire hardd...

I meant defensive in a way of looking out for his grab and approach attempts , not like standing there spamming final cutter and trying to dodge the dee's and doo's. Either way, I could be wrong =P

EDIT: I now realize I said "get defensive and let him approach you.". My mistake.

 

[Asdioh]

Jungle Japes can backfire hardd...

No offense, but that Meta Knight was BAD. I counted 3 Drill rushes in like the first 30-45 seconds of the game o_O

The Dedede wasn't anything special either...I've never seen one spam so many Waddle Dees >_>

They're really not hard to dodge, I enjoy just standing there and punching them. But if you forget that he may throw a Gordo, too bad for you D:

 

[napZzz]

60/40 IMO. I had a REALLY tough time vs. some good kirbys like chexr, and a few online ones.

His edge guarding game and grab combos are soooo good vs. DDD.

Plus its hard to land any of DDD's kill moves due to his small size and speed. He's also VERY hard to gimp.

 

[MK26]

Wow...discussion seems to have stagnated

The Dededes are split between 60-40 for Kirby and 55-45 for Kirby, and I personally can't decide.

On one hand:
Kirby can't be chaingrabbed
Its difficult for a D3 to gimp Kirby
Kirby has an easy time comboing D3

On the other hand:
D3 has raw power
The D3's may merely be inexperienced with the matchup...playing against kirby requires such a drastic shift in D3 playstyle that the advantage may be exaggerated. Once a D3 gets a handle on the matchup, it may be completely even.

At this point, I'm going to put it at 60-40

 

[MK26]

BUMP...I simply don't have the info (or time, but that's another matter) to write up a full Dedede summary. As such, I'll extend the deadline indefinitely, but hopefully we can get some meaningful discussion going and I'll be able to write it up in 2 or 3 days. For all subsequent Dedede discussion, I'd like to point you to this thread. The details are all there.

However, this does not mean that we won't keep going ahead with characters.

This week...

Character: Yoshi!

Battle of the nom...looks like Kirby won that^^ round.

Difficulty rating: 50-50​

Fire away.

 

[Ryusuta]

Generally speaking (since you cordially invited the Yoshi board members here), we agree. The match-up is currently considered 50-50 by our standards as well.

It's really extremely difficult to definitely call this match, I have to say. This is simply because both characters have such an unbelievable amount of attack options against each other that you'll basically never see the same match twice with Yoshi versus Kirby. Frankly, it's difficult to say where to begin.

I'd say that in the absolute most general terms, Yoshi has the range, speed, and positioning factor on Kirby. Because of his much more impressive maneuverability, Yoshi does reasonably well spacing Kirby and dictating the pace of the match for the most part.

Conversely, Kirby has his impressive throw game (which should never be counted out, since it gives him a lot of low-percentile options), and has the market cornered on damage and knockback. Out of the shield, Kirby can be a beast, and like Jigglypuff, isn't very susceptible to shield poking.

Both characters can get a LOT of use out of their back airs (though for very different reasons), and this is one of the few really low-percentile matches Yoshi is likely to have.

It could get really smash-heavy if one or both players gets impatient and careless, which could get messy very fast. Otherwise, we're talking Yoshi's spacing and poking versus Kirby's combos and knockback. And again, that's really simplifying things, of course.

 

[Asdioh]

o_o

I'd love to discuss Yoshi, but as far as I recall, I don't remember playing a Yoshi main. I remember playing ShadowDragon's Yoshi on wifi (he mains Kirby and seconds Yoshi) and he owned me, but that's because he's SD.

So I think the first thing to discuss for Yoshi...Copy or Starshot? :D


Oh, and I don't know what else there is to discuss for Dedede. I'm going to put it 50-50 :/

 

[Ryusuta]

I'd be happy to play a few online with you sometime, Asdioh. Feel free to drop me a PM sometime.

As for your question, I'd actually go with copy in this case. Yoshi's Egg Lay is actually really underrated (being both unblockable and usable in the air - a very rare combination), and considering Yoshi's relatively unimpressive defensive options, it's always good to have another quick option against him.