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Explain why.
This isn't a, "spout your opinion" thread.
Prove it.
Such as?
How?
Like what?
Answer these first.
1. I don't know about that. Maybe he means Kirby's moves come out faster...Samus' Zair and projectiles kinda make up for it though.
No it wouldn't. Kirby has serious gimp potential against Snake. I've watched first hand as Chu gimped one of the best east coast snake players (Candy) starting at 0% and ending at ~30%. U can ask him urself what he thinks of the matchup against Kirby. The majority of Kirby players dont know the gimp move but its the cheapest thing i've ever seen and it does work. Not to mention u dont have to start at 0% it works anytime Snake is in his Bup. Snake vs Kirby on a pro level is definitely even. If two noobs pick up snake and kirby and play each other snake will win. but if two pros did that it would def be even. Kirby's gimps vs Snakes raw power and range.
Range is not equivalent to start-up time. Samus has better range than Kirby.
So are Samus'. You'll have to consider that Samus is a super heavy-weight character.
With what attacks? And combos...in Brawl?
I really do wonder how good your friend is who plays as Samus. It won't be easy to edge-guard or "gimp" Samus.
Pertaining to Kirby gimping Snake. If Snake recovers up high, there would be no way for Kirby to hit Snake, unless its with Kirby's final cutter. Snake can also speed up his recovery by double jumping soon after, which gives his up+b momentum, increasing the speed that he rises at. Kirby can only gimp Snake on special conditions. It's also dependant on the stage, its dependant if Snake recovers at mid level or low, and its dependant if Snake loses his second jump.
my comments in green, should be 60-40 IMO.
I looked for a good 20 minutes. I've got nothin.Winner gets internet cookie and learns where the metaknight is hidden in my signature
Thank you jiovanni, you explained pretty well.
Well, on the ground, fsmash outranges most of her moves. In the air, some of her moves (fair comes to mind) have good range with disjointed hitboxes, so she beats him at some points there. Don't underestimate Kirby's range just because he's so short, though.
She's really not that hard to ko. I expect a fresh forward smash would ko her at 90-100%, possibly in the 80s if she's near the edge. And no, most of her smashes suck. I know her dtilt is a great ko move, but it's fairly easy to avoid, especially since Kirby is usually in the air. Fully Charged Shots are a good ko move, but those are only really deadly on wifi, where lag exists. A good player would not have trouble dodging them most of the time offline.
How often do you play decent Kirbys? At 0 or very low percents, Kirby's fthrow or dthrow can combo into other attacks. At higher percents, Samus is very easy to juggle with aerials. It's one of the reasons Kirby is pretty good against Meta Knight; MK may be super aggressive and hard to hit, but once Kirby gets that first hit off, he can follow up very easily, and that's on MK, who is very light and can counterattack quickly. Imagine how much easier it is to do on Samus, who is heavy like you said, and has laggier moves.
I don't play any Samuses, like I said. I told you that that guy never plays me. I played him once like 3 months ago, and I recall losing, which is to be expected the first time you play a good player with a character you're unfamiliar with.
yeah me tooI looked for a good 20 minutes. I've got nothin.
When you talk about Kirby's small size being on the ground, you are being dishonest. You only think about flat surfaces, never minding curves surfaces or even platforms. Platforms, though they are in the air, are considered to be "ground," since the character on the platform isn't jumping. Besides, even if Kirby is on a flat stage like Final Destination, who is going to use b-air?
I don't think you're aware about something regarding Samus' d-smash, which is why I'd like for you to check this video. Samus cannot KO Mr. Game & Watch at 78% with her d-smash, but in this video, she does. I know how this works, but I won't be revealing it. I thought I'd let you know about this find, however, considering that Kirby, like Mr. Game & Watch, is short and light-weight.
That's all fine. As long as Kirby is out of Samus' range, Kirby is practically harmless. I'm still curious on whether or not you brawled with a good Samus players, hopefully ones recently, since the meta-games do change, even in a short period of time like six months.
These don't talk about "combos." I guess Fox's f-air would be a combo, since it does consecutive hits. Or I guess Samus' f-air would be a combo, since it also does consecutive hits.
This says nothing of edge-guarding or gimping. You also don't state how recent this was. However, I can tell you I've brawled with someone named PangLand, who plays as Kirby sometimes, and this was fairly recent. There was also IsmaR, though hers, while within this year, is not within this month or last month.
"Most of her moves"? Let's see what Samus has. Charge Shot, Homing Missile, Super Missile, f-tilt, d-tilt (yes, this has great range, considering Samus' d-tilt beats Zelda's d-tilt, and Zelda moves her leg outward). It's interesting that jiovanni007 agrees with me that range isn't equivalent to start-up time, and that Samus beats Kirby in range, yet you say that Kirby's f-smash "outranges most of [Samus'] moves."Asdioh said:
Your expectations are wrong. Without DI, she might be KO'd off the stage if she is at the edge. With DI, Samus can survive if she is at 100% and f-smashed. I tested this out just now, putting Samus at the edge for every test. I didn't test anything higher than 100%, but that's only because you said "90-100%." You're better off using Kirby's Forward+B, but that attack is slightly slower than Ness' f-smash. (Since this discovery of Kirby's Forward+B being slightly slower than Ness' f-smash, my brother has been using the f-smash more in his gameplay. Thanks for revealing that to us, whoever played as Kirby in an FFA match.Asdioh said:
)I don't think you're aware of the possibilities Samus has with her d-tilt. She can f-air to d-tilt without leaving any time for her opponent to shield or dodge, since it's buffered the moment she touches the ground. As for Samus' Charge Shots, that's not a problem. We Samus players find ways of using our Charge Shots. If you ever brawled with Xyro77, you'll know what I am talking about.Asdioh said:
PangLand, a member of AiB, did this on me a number of times. I won't say who won the match, though.Asdioh said:
True, I agree with you on this. I've been juggled in the air when brawling against a Kirby player. It was always rewarding when I'd d-air him off the stage.Asdioh said:
lololol "Laggier moves"? Did you know that Samus' aerial attacks have little to no lag, especially when she lands on the ground? And don't think that Samus is like Bowser or Donkey Kong when it comes to weight. She's heavy, yes, but compared between her and the other two giants, she doesn't suffer as much.Asdioh said:
The meta-games have changed. If you jump out after Samus while she is off the stage, don't think she won't use Homing Missiles to force you back on the stage, let alone think that Samus won't use Bombs to recover, saving her second jump and Screw Attack. In this instance, the Screw Attack isn't really necessary. Besides, when it comes to edge-guarding, Samus beats Kirby. She can use projectile attacks and z-air.Asdioh said:
Charge Shot, Homing Missile, Super Missile. What does Kirby have, Final Cutter? If z-air doesn't go farther than the Charge Shot, Homing Missile or Super Missile, then how can you say you "fail to see how Samus out ranges Kirby with anything other than zair"? That doesn't make any sense.
This is exactly why I won't field this argument anymore, its 60-40 Kirby.
first of all, why are you withholding this "top secret info" from us? couldnt we just go to the samus boards and find out if we wanted? haha notice how we dont care if you know about kirby's moves? otherwise we wouldnt be discussing this matchup with you.
It's not top secret information. I just wanted to show that Samus' d-smash can act strange sometimes.
Only because he pushes himself slightly forward. Samus still beats Kirby in range. This is actually the only attack you Kirby players have been talking about. It reminds me of the time when I said Samus' d-tilt has KO potential, and the Zelda board complained about this and said that Zelda's d-tilt came out faster than Samus'. They exaggerated the attack, so I went ahead and tested it out for myself only to find that while Zelda's d-tilt is slightly faster, slightly, it lacked KO potential, which was the whole point of me even mentioning Samus' d-tilt in the first place.
Unless you're brawling with someone who is really good at spiking his or her opponent. Kirby isn't unstoppable. Of course, what you just said doesn't make sense. You state that Kirby doesn't use u-air off the stage, and then you say that you should never be able to KO a good Kirby with d-air while he tries to u-air.
Kirby beats Samus at edge-guarding? If Kirby is returning to the stage, then he is not edge-guarding. If Kirby goes out after Samus if he is edge-guarding, he can expect some Homing Missiles in his face. They're called "Homing" Missiles for a reason. If Samus edge-guards Kirby, Kirby can fly, but Samus doesn't need to be close to Kirby in order to hit Kirby. Even if Kirby does return to the stage, big deal? If Kirby edge-guarded, he would have to fly out and use his aerial attacks, but Homing Missiles would annoy him.
And I'm not saying it's in Samus' favor. I'd probably trust Samus is at a slight disadvantage.
You call that "slight"? If that's slight, then I should increase the amount Samus has against Bowser, calling it 80-20 instead of 70-30. As if Bowser had a slight disadvantage against Samus.psykoplympton said:
First off, you're severely misinterpreting a lot of what people are trying to say >_<
I was talking about ground vs. ground.Me said:
Ok, then I might have underestimated her weight a tiny bit. Though even with DI, surviving Kirby's Fsmash at 100% on the edge is fishy, for even the heaviest characters. Kirby's fsmash is just overpowered, I'll try testing it out myself.Your expectations are wrong. Without DI, she might be KO'd off the stage if she is at the edge. With DI, Samus can survive if she is at 100% and f-smashed. I tested this out just now, putting Samus at the edge for every test. I didn't test anything higher than 100%, but that's only because you said "90-100%." You're better off using Kirby's Forward+B, but that attack is slightly slower than Ness' f-smash. (Since this discovery of Kirby's Forward+B being slightly slower than Ness' f-smash, my brother has been using the f-smash more in his gameplay. Thanks for revealing that to us, whoever played as Kirby in an FFA match.
Ok. I don't know the percent dtilt kos at, care to share it? :/
Never heard of him, but I should tell you that the Samus player (that never plays me) that I mentioned earlier was SirRavin, the guy whose video you posted. He pwned me last time I played him, but I've gotten better since then, though I assume he has too.
A smart Kirby will expect dair, you should only land it against a good Kirby when he's trying to recover, and low on jumps. shrug
Again, misinterpreting. I meant startup lag. Her aerials may come out fast, but I think you can agree that they won't come out as fast as Meta Knight's >_<
I just want to point out that Kirby's fair, bair, (onstage) ftilt, utilt, and some other moves can cancel out homing missiles. In fact, I think jab does too.
k i was unsure of the zair hitting kirby ty for the knowledge. and i know homing missles, well, you know, home in on things. but thats why i mentioned kirbys ability to destroy them with a bair.
good thing we are not talking about bowser and his matchup vs samus right now. get over it.
What? 60-40 is slight, the only thing not neutral that's less slight is 55-45. Maybe we need a new liaison from the Samus boards >.>
I apologize if I am. It's not my intent.
That person mentioned melee attacks. Projectile attacks are still ranged attacks, which is why Samus excels in mid- to long-range combat.
Well, if there were any aerial attacks that were used against a grounded Kirby, it'd probably be n-air or d-air. F-air is too risky to use, especially since Samus could be shield-grabbed that way, if the person doesn't properly move backwards while using f-air.
I tested it out with Samus on the edge. I had no one else to help me with DI, since my brother was and still is at work. I DI'd diagonal-up. Don't be surprised. When I spoke with some Ness mainers in the Ness boards, I told them I have DI'd Ness' back throw. Ness' back throw can KO opponents in the 100% range.
I don't know what percent Kirby would be KO'd if Samus used her d-tilt.
Yeah, that's no fun. So I pester the Kirby player who has my ability, since if the Charge Shot is interrupted by an attack, it needs to be charged up again.
I'd really like to brawl with SirRavin. I had him on my Brawl Friend Code, but I never played against him. I want to do Samus dittos.
That's one of the best things about Samus. Using Samus' weakness (her floatiness) and making it her strength. Because of this, Samus cannot be chain-grabbed by Falco.
I didn't say that I can land a d-air on Kirby while he's in the air. If anything, I try to get back to the ground. Bombs are more preferable to use than d-air anyway. It's only one of those situations where I feel so overwhelmed by my opponent that I use d-air and am satisfied if I spike him or her to their doom.
It's not quick like Meta Knight's, but you can use Samus' f-air, for example twice in the air. You can f-air, then do your double jump and use f-air again. It'll come out so fast that if performed right, you won't even see Samus flip while performing her second jump. You'll just see f-air and f-air, though you'll see Samus bounce upward.
The purpose of Homing Missiles isn't to harm Samus' opponent. Power doesn't necessarily mean that the person will win. This is why, for example, Bowser is easily pressured against Samus. To quote Rohins,
So, you can jab and hit and do whatever you wish with the Homing Missiles. We're controlling the stage by making you do what we want you to do. Power is useless if you have no control over it. Again, that's why Bowser is easily pressured against Samus.Rohins said:
Some like to stall, like me. Once those invincible frames are out of the way, I can use my Screw Attack and increase your damage percent. I do this a lot to most of my opponents in free-for-all matches.
Before anyone says that the match-up should be 60-40 or whatever, I'd like to see how anyone even comes up with these numbers in the first place.
50-50: Neutral
I laugh at you cookieless fools while i happily eat my own cookies.I looked for a good 20 minutes. I've got nothin.
And we're not talking about Meta Knight, either, but Asdioh brought him up. Special pleading? No, seriously, I wasn't aware that 60-40 meant "slight disadvantage." In fact, how do you get to these percentages? Please take a look at my thread in the Brawl Tactical Discussion regarding match-up numbers.
It means that in a match with players of equal skill Kirby will win ~60% of the time and Samus ~40% of the time. The odds aren't that much in the favor of Kirby, but still in his favor.
I'm aware of this. What I am asking is how you get to this? And "equal" skill? You'd need to computers of the same mind, so to speak, to play characters A and B in equal skill.
We just assume the players are at the highest skill possible (comps can't do it since they aren't the highest skill possible) and what each character could do in that situation. Kirby has more options to use against Samus in this match, but not enough to put Samus in a situation where it would be incredibly difficult to win. Things like Kirby's bair penetrating missiles and nfc charge beams take away from Spamus' game a bit without taking away from Kirby's since a lot of us spam bair and fair to begin with. Accounting for all factors, its safe to say that Kirby is at a distinct advantage in this match, but not a big enough advantage that would make it a surprise if Samus beat Kirby assuming the two playing them were of equal and high skill.
its more of a rough statistics kind of thing. you an estimation based on knowledge.
It should be. It's a guide for Kirby, after all. Ask phanna. He stickied my Samus guide. He might do the same for you.
No, what I said makes perfect sense. kirby doesnt use uair off stage. so, if kirby is juggling samus, samus will be above the stage. Even if you did hit kirby with the dair while he was trying to uair you, he would fly straight down into the stage, which would not kill him, ever. therefore, kirby never uses uair off stage, AND samus's dair will never kill kirby. Asdioh is right, you really are misinterpreting a lot.
You're ignorant on the matter. I made a thread yesterday regarding match-up numbers and why we even have them. So far, I've been told that they're arbitrary, so really, what's the point of having match-up numbers if they're arbitrary? So, what I plan on doing is studying every character in the game. One example is PKNintendo's thread, which is about a tier list for recoveries. My plan is to figure out who has the most KO potential, who has better recovery, better range, &c. So, until then, you're more than welcome to put up arbitrary numbers, try out my method, or have character A and B fight in one-hundred matches to determine the amount of percent each character wins in each match. If you didn't know, numbers like 60-40 simply represent percent. A, for example, will win 60% of the time, while B will win 40% of the time.
