The New Official Kirby Matchup Rankings AND GUIDE Thread! :: OMGOMGOMG! We're done!

[Pierce7d]

Uh, because individual match-up experience, and personal player tendencies tend to have a severe result on match outcome, we tend not to talk about individual players in match-up discussion. For instance, I as a Marth player, **** D3's, because I have so much match-up exp, due to there being 2 D3 mains in my crew. If there is a Match in your crew, naturally you'll be better at the match-up. This doesn't give Kirby a better match-up against Marth.

Anyway, Marth ***** Kirby 70-30 because you can't reliably penetrate our zoning. If you're doing it, the Marth you are playing is not great at Marth. You really have nothing with passes through Fair and dtilt, you will get hit. Also, Marth's fsmash is not good, lol. Please don't compare it to Kirby's thinking it makes the match-up better.

 

[SheerMadness]

Gonzo you're way too hasty with your match ups buddy. One person owned you with Samus a while back and you single handedly got them to change it to 40-60. Theres no way Kirby is 40-60 against Samus lol. I'm also pritty sure I can go back and find a post of you saying that Snake is an extremely bad matchup yet now you're saying its 50/50. So just because you get or got owned by some Marth recently does not mean that Kirby can't cut it against him.

And "zoning" does not make Marth untouchable like most of you Marths think. A couple well placed Final Cutters is enough to disrupt a Marth that camps fairs/downtilts. Either it hits them, they block it, they avoid it and approach, or they avoid it and continue camping. All of those scenarious disrupt your "zoning" to an extent.

 

[~Gonzo~]

Gonzo you're way too hasty with your match ups buddy. One person owned you with Samus a while back and you single handedly got them to change it to 40-60. Theres no way Kirby is 40-60 against Samus lol. I'm also pritty sure I can go back and find a post of you saying that Snake is an extremely bad matchup yet now you're saying its 50/50. So just because you get or got owned by some Marth recently does not mean that Kirby can't cut it against him.

And "zoning" does not make Marth untouchable like most of you Marths think. A couple well placed Final Cutters is enough to disrupt a Marth that camps fairs/downtilts. Either it hits them, they block it, they avoid it and approach, or they avoid it and continue camping. All of those scenarious disrupt your "zoning" to an extent.

lol i've been owned by every good Marth on the East coast, its not a matter of one time and have u played a marth uses the forward B as a damage builder as well as utilizes passive spacing? Marth manhadles Kirby Kirby just doesnt have a way to get close if the Marth player isnt aggressive.

 

[skellitorman]

OK. How about we put it like this. Sheer has played good Marths. Good Marths have played Sheer. They both get good at the matchup. Sheer says that he is able to play Marth fairly well. HRNUT is good with Marth, so I am pretty sure that he is good at his techniques and strategies (like zoning) and since he plays the Kirby, he is not new to the matchup. The Marth Sheer plays, says that he does very well, that he "actually gets worried when he has to fight him at times." Maybe Sheer is much better than HRNUT or maybe its just that Kirby doesn't have that big of a disadvantage as many people think.

 

[Steel]

Uh, because individual match-up experience, and personal player tendencies tend to have a severe result on match outcome, we tend not to talk about individual players in match-up discussion. For instance, I as a Marth player, **** D3's, because I have so much match-up exp, due to there being 2 D3 mains in my crew. If there is a Match in your crew, naturally you'll be better at the match-up. This doesn't give Kirby a better match-up against Marth.

Anyway, Marth ***** Kirby 70-30 because you can't reliably penetrate our zoning. If you're doing it, the Marth you are playing is not great at Marth. You really have nothing with passes through Fair and dtilt, you will get hit. Also, Marth's fsmash is not good, lol. Please don't compare it to Kirby's thinking it makes the match-up better.

This. This. This.

And sheer Marth won't be just standing there doing tilts and fairs, he'll be right in your face but yet far enough away to be safe. He uses his disjointed hitboxes to put you in a bad position under constant pressure while he is fine. You'll be way too close to do a final cutter, and if it is blocked will be punished.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

still kirby is very agile and his moves come out faster than marths so, it can be problematic if kirby gets on the inside of marth...

 

[~Gonzo~]

Thats what i said earlier, IF kirby gets in close he has a good chance except when Bup comes out and just F's everything up. Timmy i'm curious why u think its 50-50? My opponents don't approach me. For the most part people i lose to Marth especially sit in the middle of the stages and use retreating Fairs. When i do time an approach right i'm forward B'd, and u can't shield grab against a forwardB, i'm not saying this matchup is impossible cuz apparently there are those who can do it. In which case uall should be posting some vids. I just think its pretty **** hard and must not be doing something.

 

[Steel]

Show me a good kirby beating a marth that you think is good and I will critique it and show why the Marth lost. Either he played the match up wrong, made stupid mistakes, isn't as good of a player, whatever. I'll critique it. Either that, or you can completely prove me wrong, which probably won't happen.

 

[SheerMadness]

That's why its pointless arguing with some people. No matter what we show you, you're just gonna rationalize it by saying that Marth lost because he was playing wrong. Your mind has already been made up no matter what you see. Thats a terrible mindset.

Steel2nd wanna try playing online?

 

[~Gonzo~]

lol wifi aint gonna solve nothin, what steel2nd is saying is that if the Marth never approaches and just camps Fair and forwardB Kirby cant do anything about it. I dont mean camp as in ok he's camping let me use my final cutter cuz that wont happen, these marth players were talkin about are passive aggressive, they let u appraoch hit u away and then close the distance and repeat again till they hit u, then close the distance again, Kirby never has room to try any tactics. What happens is Kirby gets forced to use moves like Fsmash and dsmash to counter Marths moves but then cant finish the ******* cuz the smashes are stale and its not like u've put any real damage on anyway prob 50 or 60 at best. Its just a tough matchup, we cant agree that its a hard matchup???

 

[Steel]

That's why its pointless arguing with some people. No matter what we show you, you're just gonna rationalize it by saying that Marth lost because he was playing wrong. Your mind has already been made up no matter what you see. Thats a terrible mindset.

Steel2nd wanna try playing online?

Of course I will, how else would a character with less range, aerial mobility, speed, and a lack of tools etc get past Marth's sword whose attributes clearly outclass his opponent's?

And honestly you haven't been arguing with me at all. All you keep saying is "this match up isn't as hard as you all think." I've asked you to prove it multiple times now, and you just walk away when I put the ball in your court.

WTF is online going to prove? Especially since Marth is debatably one of the worst characters to use on wifi.

 

[∫unk]

Kirby ***** Marth 90:10 I'd say.

Marth just can't do anything about Kirby's aerial mobility he's like jigglypuff (already a problem matchup) but better.

 

[SheerMadness]

LOL you'll eventually learn that you can't play hypothetical smash. It's impossible to argue with new smashers, especially headstrong ones. Thus why I'm not even trying anymore.

Funny how the 2 Kirby's who played competitive melee (me and timmy) both think that the Marth match up is fairly even. It's all the new smashers who think the match up is hopeless.


And yah online is terrible. But it can still give you an idea of how to play vs certain characters.

 

[Steel]

So the SBR'r who also thinks it is 70:30 and has played plenty of competitive melee (which has nothing to do with this because it is a completely different game fighting wise) doesn't have a say in it?

And I once again give you a chance to tell me what Kirby can do... but you turn away. Seriously, neither of you will convince ANYONE by doing nothing but insulting "new" smashers. Calling them ignorant doesn't work if you can't even put up a fight in the argument.

And I agree online is a good thing for match up experience.

 

[Pierce7d]

90:10 is OD Junk. Kirby has retreating final cutter, and quick, reasonably reaching tilts, and decent finishers, with a decent recovery.

However, I stand by what I said before. Kirby really can't get inside Marth's zoning reliably. Sure, you can use a few final cutters here and there, but at the end of the day, we have better tools to keep you out than you have to get in. Final Cutter is easily dodged, easily perfect shielded, and not safe on block, plus Marth's Dancing Blade is one of the best punishers in the game.

 

[jiovanni007]

Kirby ***** Marth 90:10 I'd say.

Marth just can't do anything about Kirby's aerial mobility he's like jigglypuff (already a problem matchup) but better.

troll leave pl0x

LOL you'll eventually learn that you can't play hypothetical smash. It's impossible to argue with new smashers, especially headstrong ones. Thus why I'm not even trying anymore.

Funny how the 2 Kirby's who played competitive melee (me and timmy) both think that the Marth match up is fairly even. It's all the new smashers who think the match up is hopeless.


And yah online is terrible. But it can still give you an idea of how to play vs certain characters.

No, I was competitive in melee as well and I never said it was hopeless. A hopeless match would be 100:0. Marth is the toughest match for Kirby and as a 70:30, that's not a hopeless match, just difficult. A good Kirby main can still beat an equally skilled Marth main straight up, its just less likely to happen.

Clearly most people here don't understand the match-up ratio. A 70:30 match doesn't mean that Marth will always win at equal skill levels, it means that he will about 70% of the time. If the Kirby player is better than the Marth player, that percentage begins to go down. So as you can see, the results can become skewed very easily. Marth is a 70:30, let's move on to the next character please.

 

[~Gonzo~]

Ditto the above statement, 7 out of 10 times Marth will beat Kirby, which means in tourney the odds of u winning 2 out of 3 matches are slim to none. 30% Hypothetical win rate vs a 66% required win rate is really really hard. Saying the Marth player is of equal skill

 

[skellitorman]

Sheer, how could you not include me in your example. Clearly I am trying to help explain the situation as well. I tried for like three pages but they didn't understand at all. So now I am trying a different approach.

Kirby players and Marth players have already established that once a Kirby gets inside Marth's range, that it is problematic for Marth, and we already established that it is necessary for Kirby to get inside Marth's range to win.

So if getting into Marth's range was so hard then why are good Kirby players like Sheer winning against good Marths like HRNUT?

Like I said before. Its either that Kirby players like Sheer are alot better than Marth players like HRNUT to close the gap betweem advantages or disadvantages, or maybe its that the match is quite even.

Notice how T!mmy, me and Sheer who have more experience all agree on this matter being a close match.

Sheer I must play you one of these days for best Kirby in Florida title ja ja. You could ask Esam or Lampchops about me, or somebody around the South Florida area.

Also I am tired of trying to establish my ethos so please people, watch my only videos that have been recorded (although they are not against Marth).

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197180

 

[Steel]

LOL, three agree on the matter who all happen to be Kirby's. Once again.. *points at emblem lord*. We've 'experienced' (as in played competitive melee, for whatever reason you guys think this is a big deal >_>) marth players who say otherwise.

Also once Kirby is inside he will get a hit or two off yeah, but he definitely won't be staying in there for long. You mis-space once and you eat an up b out of shield.

 

[SheerMadness]

Sorry Skellitor. I played competitive melee in Florida for 3 years and I've never heard of you, so I just assumed you didn't play melee competitively.

 

[~Gonzo~]

Lol end of story IMO is that Kirby is at a fairly large disadvantage. the best matchup i could give this based on everyones opinions is 40-60. Marth has more pros than cons against Kirby where Kirby having pros or not still has fewer pros than he dos cons in the matchup. lol did i make sense at all??

 

[Asdioh]

No Gonzo, you didn't. You just said that Kirby has a fairly large advantage, and then said (I assume) it's 60:40 Marth's favor.

Then the last sentence made like no sense at all, lol

But I agree, Marth has a sword.

 

[Silfa]

It sort of made sense to me. I got something like this out of the post:

Kirby could and might have some pros against Marth, though not nearly as many as he does cons, while Marth's the opposite with pros that far outweigh the cons.

If that makes sense any more sense? lol, idk.

 

[~Gonzo~]

lol i fixed it, but basically, Silfa, u got it right.

 

[t!MmY]

Timmy i'm curious why u think its 50-50? My opponents don't approach me.

You just answered your own question. If the following is true:
1) Marth doesn't approach Kirby
2) Kirby is at a disadvantage when forced to approach Marth

Then add this:
3) Kirby doesn't approach Marth

The game is stalemate, thus 50:50.

I'll mention a few things. A retreating f-air won't hit Kirby unless Kirby runs into it. Yes you can shield grab Marth's Side Special, if timed right. Marth's sword doesn't have that much reach. If you mained Kirby in Melee, you would know what a real disadvantage with Marth's sword is like.

 

[~Gonzo~]

You just answered your own question. If the following is true:
1) Marth doesn't approach Kirby
2) Kirby is at a disadvantage when forced to approach Marth

Then add this:
3) Kirby doesn't approach Marth

The game is stalemate, thus 50:50.

I'll mention a few things. A retreating f-air won't hit Kirby unless Kirby runs into it. Yes you can shield grab Marth's Side Special, if timed right. Marth's sword doesn't have that much reach. If you mained Kirby in Melee, you would know what a real disadvantage with Marth's sword is like.

Lol that makes sense, i didn't play melee competitively so i really wouldn't know. so i guess i should just chill till Marth comes to me huh? lol sounds like a plan

 

[MK26]

Alright, its almost update time. Just looking through everybody's posts, I've realized that several people have changed their rating of the matchup, including myself. Right now, I'm leaning toward regular disadvantage, either 60-40 or 65-35. Why?

First off, in theory, Marth should have no problem winning. The operatin word is theory. Marth has an answer to every one of Kirby's options. In theory, the Marth should not get touched. However, it is impossible to maintain perfect spacing in a real match. A single mistake at 0% can lead to a d-throw --> u-tilt --> chase. Marth has a huge weak spot when his opponent is below him, so getting 2 or 3 d-throws, around 40% including pummels and a u-tilt, is not difficult. Again, this is theory, the Marth could airdodge or something to avoid the combo, but it is possible nonetheless.

Also, I was under the impression that Kirby had a difficult time killing Marth. With input from both sides, I have realized that this is not true. Kirby's F-smash does not need to be sweetspotted to kill. Kirby can easily edgeguard Marth to death. One thing I've found out is that Kirby grabs Marth and the Marth's feet are dangling off the ledge, the Marth will jump break. If the Marth is grabbed after he has used his second jump, and the Kirby does not pummel, he does not get the jump back. The Marth cannot reach the stage with his up-b, only the ledge. Therefore, a simple grab over the edge is an assured kill, if the Marth has used his second jump.

Soo...in theory, Marth has this match in the bag. In a game situation, Kirby has enough options that unless the Marth has perfect reaction time, this matchup is not a large disadvantage.

 

[skellitorman]

I have been trying to explain what T!mmy explained right now, for pages. I have been trying to give the Marth in Melee scenario and say that that is a disadvantage whereas now its not that much of a problem, yet people still tried to argue with that. Also I have been trying to say that you can shield and counter Marth's fB and upB but people still tried to argue even that.

Also, Marth's moves can all be countered, just like all Kirby's moves can be countered, so don't say theoretically Marth has this match all set, when that is not the case. Theoretically a perfect Kirby player can counter all Marth's moves, and in fact its easier to counter Marth's moves (time wise) because Marth's moves are laggier. Also I have pointed out before, like T!mmy just said again, that Marth doesn't outrange Kirby by much.

 

[MK26]

Marth is done. Final verdict: 35-65

For week #3, we're discussing...

Character: Kirby

Difficulty rating: Everything

That's right, this week is about Kirby. Not about how we fight against Kirby, but all of Kirby's matchup ratings. Is there one you disagree with? Let us know. What's your opinion on the "Questioned Matchups", Luigi, Olimar, Shiek/Zelda, Toon Link, and Wolf? Do you play a character whose matchup thread disagrees with ours?

 

[cAm8ooo]

You used my idea for the name of the thread!!!!!!!

I demand to know where the Meta Knight is!!

Also, whats yah's view on Mr. Game and Watch and what's the best advice to get past the dreaded turtle.

 

[Asdioh]

Wolf is discussing Kirby in their boards, it's around 50-50, give or take 5. I agree.

I don't have enough experience with the others, but I've beaten most Luigis and Zeldas I meet, whereas Sheik owns me, but I think it's because his speed is hard to react to on wifi.

I secondary Toon Link, so I know him quite well...I don't know who's favor it is though. I'll put some thought into it and contribute what I can later.
EDIT: Like the population of the Toon Link boards MWAHAHAH!

 

[CaliburChamp]

I dont understand why Marth has the most advantage over Kirby, he shouldnt be in a whole new match up tier. If anybody is, it's definitly Snake. At least place Marth in the same tier as Snake and ROB.

 

[1nconspikuous]

mk? =)

I demand to know where the Meta Knight is!!

this. but i can wait. =)

 

[MK26]

Hmmm...would it be better to make a separate thread for each character? If we get mains from multiple boards in here, it could get crowded fast...

 

[Bomber7]

I'm here answering the request to have a member of the TL boards to come over to discuss which way will the scale fall when comparing TL and Kirby when it comes to advantages.

You see I'm a bomber and there is a thread on our board that is a guide for bombers like me that gives effectiveness rating of a bomber vs a certain character. Well for kirby that is ranked pretty low. Though the guide suggests to use arrows and boomberaang as a substitute which will increase your chances of success. From my experience of playing kirby players I have found that it is hard to land a good blow on him sometimes as TL(same as jigglypuff) though once in the air the attacks get easier and its more effective.

to me the scale can fall either way, though i can't guaruntee anything past a 20% difference. you could see a 50-50, or a 60-40 scale.

Lets look at it this way, TL out ranges kirby and has better power, but, Kirby has all his floaty ness so he is quite manuverable if used well so comboing with TL is going to be very dificult. Also kirby is an open target in the air for TL's meteor smash (Dair)

As far as I can tell the scale will weigh in TL's favor, but only by a little bit.

Anyone who contradicts me, please explain your reasoning. I'm open to anything that is reasonable.

 

[~Gonzo~]

Tl can't handle Kirby IMO, TL's shorter range compared means Kirby can use his jumps and float around to hit with Bairs to punish between TL's aerials, also Kirby's Neutral A cancels any ground attack TL can use. The only thing that Kirby should fear is Uair and Dair, both of which are deadly. Also Kirby can Dair TLs upB pretty easily. The boomerang is pretty annoying its the the only ranged attack to watch out for cuz once that hits u ur gonna get by an arrow or bomb usually. I think the matchup is 60-40 for Kirby. I've played a few good TLs. Enough to get a good grasp on the matchup. Not to mention Kirby can gimp TL with inhale pretty badly.

 

[~Gonzo~]

Sorry for the double post but i thought i should spread this out my views on some of the questionable matchups

ROB: 50-50 Kirby needs to stay away from ground caombat and go all air in the matchup. He has the advatnage in speed in the air and brick and hammer are great ways to punish ROBs Bup. ROB definitely is better on the ground but most Kirby players spend more time in the air anyway so thats not to much of an issue. Also Dtilt and Fsmash have decent range on the ground if u have to use them also Kirby's neutral A pushes ROB far enough to avoid an Fsmash if ur in a tough spot and needs some breathing room.

Wario. IMO Absolutely 60-40. U gotta stay in Warios face and just annoy him. Jab, grabs, Bair a lot when u c that Uair all Warios let u fall in to it so u just gotta bait him high enough to let ur brick get him and dont forget if u c brick is gonna miss u can always quickly get out b4 u even fall anywhere to save urself from Warios Uair. Also Dair and Bair gimp Wario off his bike pretty well. The biggest advantage is bite. If ur any good with Kirby's inhale u should **** with bite. Its like inhale except wider and does more damage and u can repeat bite back to back pretty well. It doesnt stop Fsmash but fsmash is easy to counter.

Snake IMO 50-50 Dejavu on this commet lol Kirby's superior aerial game and grab chasing plus grenade cop yevens this matchup. all i gotta say is if u've never tried to Dthrow somone back to back TRY IY. its crzy gay and lots of fun. Get good with grenades as well. Maybe play a little snake and just play around with the nades nothing special just learn to use them so when ur gonna get hit hard u just pop the greande and u both get hit. Grenade makes snake take damage to instead of u getting hit and snake getting away with no damage. It wont win u the match alone but it'll get u that extra 50 or 60 damage u need to Kill snake.

Shiek and Zelda Shiek (60-40) gets combo'd ****less by Kirby just grab and u tilt a lot plus some bairs and u should b good. U can gimp Shiek pretty easy. Zelda is a bit harder given the fact that she doesnt approach much and has crazy range and power. IMO 45-55 its a pretty boring matchup nothing special just try and bait and punish. Which i'm not very good at lol which is y i might have more trouble than i should.

Wolf 50-50 the hardest of the spacies to play against. His laser is very good and his reflector is godly. On the other hand Wolf always starts the match with a 50% handicap lol thnx to Kirby's throw combo. Bairs, Utilts, grabs, and the spontaneus Dairs will get u the win here which are all strengths Kirby has. If ur facing a campy wolf, edge camp. I know its ******** but so is camping with Wolf.

anyway just my thoughts let me know what uall think

 

[Asdioh]

One sticking point is the fact that the Kirby boards have their TL match down as 60-40 in favour of Kirby, while the TL boards say their match is 70-30 in favour of Toon Link. We'd really appreciate it if you guys came over to our discussion thread and gave us some input. Thanks.

You know, I think it could be a weird matchup that could go anywhere from 60-40 in one's favor, or 60-40 in the other's favor. There are just so many different things that could happen in this matchup. First off, there could be melee Toon Links, and there could be projectile spammers. Then you can consider how the matchup would change once Kirby steal's Toon Link's power. Then you could consider how Toon Link's dair is a deadly spike, but I think it is less effective against Kirby, since he has no fear of airdodging during a jump, since he gets back to the stage easily. Some characters with only a single jump don't like to airdodge, as it sends them lower and makes it less likely for them to reach the stage. Kirby has 5 jumps. Then you can consider if Kirby happened to use all 5 jumps, Final Cutter makes him an easy dair target.

Both characters have very deadly aerials. Toon Link's back-air comes out quick and is not laggy. You can chain this if you di properly. Kirby's bair is almost the same. Toon Link does have better aerials for koing...but Kirby's dair can gimp more easily, especially if Toon Link has to use Up B to recover.

Both characters are fairly light, and can ko at pretty low percentages. Both have gimping potential.

See what I mean? I think it's hard to set this matchup as just one solid number.
So I suppose it would make sense for it to be 50-50, meaning it could go either way..dunno why I didn't think of that in the first place ^_^
Depending on playstyles, it could go 60-40 TL or 60-40 Kirby, so that's why I say 50-50. Anyone agree?

Shiek and Zelda Shiek (60-40) gets combo'd ****less by Kirby just grab and u tilt a lot plus some bairs and u should b good. U can gimp Shiek pretty easy. Zelda is a bit harder given the fact that she doesnt approach much and has crazy range and power. IMO 45-55 its a pretty boring matchup nothing special just try and bait and punish. Which i'm not very good at lol which is y i might have more trouble than i should.

First let me say I only have extensive experience with these 2 on wifi. And I can tell you now that Sheik is way harder on wifi, due to the fact that she moves around everywhere and her attacks come out quick. But I agree, offline would probably be much easier, 60-40 sounds good.

Zelda, imo, is even easier than Sheik. She's slow, and so are her moves. A lot of the Zelda's I've seen play predictable, and finding a way to counter them shouldn't be too hard. She's spamming Din's Fire? Well, imo, stealing Zelda's power is probably one of the most useful things you could do in any matchup. It's so good against her, mainly because it makes Din's Fire easy to counter. If she's far away and uses it, just hit B and it won't hurt you. Nayru's Love has a long duration, so it makes it much easier to avoid Din's Fire than airdodging. It's also a pretty good move in itself, and allows you to approach. You can also combo Zelda pretty well, I think. I put it 55-45 Kirby.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

On the Wolf boards we have the Kirby match-up neutral

 

[jiovanni007]

I'm here answering the request to have a member of the TL boards to come over to discuss which way will the scale fall when comparing TL and Kirby when it comes to advantages.

You see I'm a bomber and there is a thread on our board that is a guide for bombers like me that gives effectiveness rating of a bomber vs a certain character. Well for kirby that is ranked pretty low. Though the guide suggests to use arrows and boomberaang as a substitute which will increase your chances of success. From my experience of playing kirby players I have found that it is hard to land a good blow on him sometimes as TL(same as jigglypuff) though once in the air the attacks get easier and its more effective.

to me the scale can fall either way, though i can't guaruntee anything past a 20% difference. you could see a 50-50, or a 60-40 scale.

Lets look at it this way, TL out ranges kirby and has better power, but, Kirby has all his floaty ness so he is quite manuverable if used well so comboing with TL is going to be very dificult. Also kirby is an open target in the air for TL's meteor smash (Dair)

As far as I can tell the scale will weigh in TL's favor, but only by a little bit.

Anyone who contradicts me, please explain your reasoning. I'm open to anything that is reasonable.

Nah, this won't happen at all. It's definitely a 60-40 in Kirby's favor. Dair will (almost) never get Kirby and TL's bair wop won't even hold Kirby long enough for TL to even get him in a confident position to use that. As far as projectiles go, bombs are the only dangerous one. They are pulled out quick and can be thrown for a decent range. Arrows and Boomerangs are easily dispatched by standard Kirby approaches. Kirby wins in the air since most of TL's aerial have a little start up lag and Kirby's fair and bair come out instantly. As far as killing goes, potential is slightly tilted in Kirby's favor. Kirby will have no problem landing a ground hammer or fsmash which will kill off TL pretty early. Kirby is scared ****less by TL's usmash, but has little fear since it doesn't land very often. Kirby can also gimp TL very easily since he has one of the most predictable recoveries in the game. DI helps this a bit since he has above average aerial movement. Overall Kirby ends up with the slight advantage considering he can neutralize most of his projectiles, gimps more often, and lands killing blows easier.