The New Mario Match-Up Index

[condemned_soul]

Juushichi did you got to Good **** Stratford?

wouldnt Nair be risky since iirc if you shields it its a guaranteed Fsmash?

 

[Matador]

wouldnt Nair be risky since iirc if you shields it its a guaranteed Fsmash?

You know how if you Shorthop a Dair, you can nair as soon as Dair ends before you hit the ground? That's what I mean.

Also, you know how you can Dair into someone's shield, then double jump nair before they're able to drop their shield to shieldgrab or anything? THAT's what I mean.

There's also just the sheer number of options. Let's say you're on BF and an opponent is on one of the side platforms. You are underneath...you could:

• SH dair to Uair if you prefer to remain safe underneath the platform while giving shield pressure.
• Fullhop dair to nair. Perhaps if their shield is low and think you'll shield poke.
• Fullhop dair to double jump nair...pretty safe...hard for most characters to react to. Most players don't expect the nair or will try to punish the dair anyway though, which will be unsuccessful.
• Fullhop dair and land behind them. Good mix-up. They'll have to react quick if they wanna stop you from grabbing or jabbing them.
• Space Bair while remaining underneath the platform. If you hit them, you can double jump into ANOTHER bair or uair depending on how close they are.
• Use aerials just to knock them off the platform while shielding. If they don't tech, go for the jab lock.
• UpB. Only works for the surprise factor. They also have to guess if you'll land on the platform or on the ground.

There's more, but this is just off the top of my head. The majority is safe pressure, which Mario can really use in most match-ups.

Let's also keep in mind that Mario's utilt hits opponents on top of the platform as well. So broken...

 

[Matt07]

^ This is why I love Battlefield .

 

[A2ZOMG]

What does Mario have to scare Wario on platforms?

D-air.

It's virtually guaranteed damage on EVERYONE who shields on a platform against Mario. If you know how they will try to wiggle out (which is limited to EXTREMELY few options), they WILL get hit.

Not to mention the fact D-air can shield poke much more easily than most aerials.

Wario's platform pressure in comparison is limited to Bite basically. He can't actually do anything else to you if you jump out of shield while standing on a platform. And he has to also worry about how Bite is moderately unsafe if read.

Seriously, Mario's platform pressure is REALLY REALLY STUPIDLY GOOD. The only character in the game who is CLEARLY better at it is Metaknight, which is one reason why he's beyond stupidly broken on Brinstar. Characters who compete with Mario for having amazing platform pressure games are G&W and Luigi.

G&W can cover all escape options after N-airing. Luigi does a similar job by using F-air. Everyone else sucks at covering jump out of shield and has to bait it by waiting on the ground or attempting a moderately risky air grab.

Dair and Nair mostly, but Uair and Bair are amazing too. It works because of how low lag our aerials are. That's why Luigi's platform pressure is amazing as well.

He doesn't have our dair though...which I'm starting to believe is kinda broken for platform pressure.

Luigi has F-air, which is his best aerial for platform pressure (and underused in general).

 

[Inferno3044]

D-air.

It's virtually guaranteed damage on EVERYONE who shields on a platform against Mario. If you know how they will try to wiggle out (which is limited to EXTREMELY few options), they WILL get hit.

Not to mention the fact D-air can shield poke much more easily than most aerials.

Why is Wario shielding on a platform? Last time I checked, Wario players normally move around in the air a lot because he has amazing mobility. They don't tend to stay in one place.

Wario's platform pressure in comparison is limited to Bite basically. He can't actually do anything else to you if you jump out of shield while standing on a platform. And he has to also worry about how Bite is moderately unsafe if read.

Can't Wario use dair to platform pressure? Why can't people jump out of shield vs. Mario's dair? Also, how would you avoid bite on a read while on a platform?

Seriously, Mario's platform pressure is REALLY REALLY STUPIDLY GOOD. The only character in the game who is CLEARLY better at it is Metaknight, which is one reason why he's beyond stupidly broken on Brinstar. Characters who compete with Mario for having amazing platform pressure games are G&W and Luigi.

Yeah he can SH dair which is good for shield pressure because it's a quick multi-hit attack but it's not like other characters can't do it. G&W, Falco, Olimar, and Pit are a few examples of characters that can do this as well. Also Mario is just a bad character and is *** vs. Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is Wario shielding on a platform? Last time I checked, Wario players normally move around in the air a lot because he has amazing mobility. They don't tend to stay in one place.

Wario only has two jumps. He HAS to land at some point, which means he has to deal with Mario's platform pressure. Wario trying to platform camp against Mario is a very bad idea for him since he's playing where Mario is strongest.

Can't Wario use dair to platform pressure? Why can't people jump out of shield vs. Mario's dair? Also, how would you avoid bite on a read while on a platform?

It's not NEARLY as safe or as effective for Wario to use his D-air for platform pressure. his D-air doesn't hit nearly as high, and he also has to commit to landing first before he can do anything else.

If people jump out of shield against Mario's D-air, you can U-air them for trying that. Or if they do it early, they get shield poked.

Bite is extremely punishable if you roll or if you jump away early. Yes rolling is usually not a good option for getting out of platform pressure, but Wario doesn't really have that great of platform pressure to be frank.

Yeah he can SH dair which is good for shield pressure because it's a quick multi-hit attack but it's not like other characters can't do it. G&W, Falco, Olimar, and Pit are a few examples of characters that can do this as well. Also Mario is just a bad character and is *** vs. Marth.

No, you don't understand.

You're looking for a QUICK and LOW LAG high hitting aerial that can bait jump out of shield when you want to platform pressure. I don't mean low lag as in simply safe on block. I mean low lag in that pressing a button to try to escape gets you punished.

If you're getting platform pressured by anyone else, it's easy to get out by simply angling shield and jumping out of shield once they commit. Nobody else besides G&W, Luigi, and Metaknight can chase jump out of shield nearly as effectively.

Falco's platform pressure is complete *** on Brinstar because it's too huge a unsafe commitment for him to N-air the platforms. Pit's platform pressure is also bad because his jumps are bad. Olimar can kinda be annoying with Up-Bs on Brinstar and the lava can save him here and there, but you should be more worried about avoiding B-throw/U-throw on Brinstar than anything else.

G&W does platform pressure well, but it's because he can virtually safely cover jump out of shield. Luigi and Metaknight are the only other characters who can really cover jump out of shield reliably (after F-air and U-air respectively).

 

[steep]

Hey guys! Can we do some TL discussion? I have been having some real trouble dealing with players like Links24, etc. when they use TL. Thanks in advance!

 

[fromundaman]

Steep, do you want TL tips, or Links24 tips?

Seriously though, here's a couple tips I'm going to copy and paste from a post I made on the Kirby boards (Note these are Kirby tips, so you may want to replace Utilt with jab and I'm fairly sure Mario can't crouch under Zair. Additional comments in red):

Yeah, Jowii is right. You have to be aggro, but you have to approach intelligently. The best way to get in in my experience is to bait a Zair, then roll through it and buffer Utilt. You can crouch under the Zair as well. Also, learn to insta-catch bombs. It helps a LOT. You can also cape them, but insta-catching them is usually better. Fireball followed by a bomb is a good way to get in. Also Mario can do some pretty decent bomb combos.
Ideally, you want to be just outside of Zair range for most of the match, since at that range you can bait and punish while remaining relatively safe. Also, 90% of the time, when TL does a retreating backwards AD, he's going to cancel it with a Zair.
That MU is frustrating because of the projectiles and his aerial mobility, but if you play it really patiently and wait for an opening before going in, then it's doable.

-Don't be below TL. If he's above you, don't chase unless you're certain he'll spotdodge. It's a better idea to try and bait a Dair then punish it or try to read his landing and punish that.
-When TL whiffs a grab, you can get a free grounded hammer if you are near him (Like on 2:58 in the smashville match), a Fsmash if you're too far to get a grounded hammer in time, and a grab if you're coming from the really far away (Other side of the stage). Basically, when TL whiffs a grab, punish that **** HARD. It has one of the longest grab cooldowns in the game (After ZSS I think). Fsmash or Usmash for Mario.
-Ftilt is a good way to negate the boomerang when on the ground. It allows you to clash with it and slowly gain ground, but don't do it when he's in range to punish.
-Don't try to challenge Uair when it's out, and remember his body is also a hitbox during the whole thing, so he can fall on you with a Uair and hit. It's safer (especially on ledgehopped Uair) to wait for him to land and punish.

Also, DON'T play on the ledge against TL. He can SHDair onstage and still spike you.

FLUDD beats all projectiles and sends bombs back at him. It's cooldown makes it situational though.

If you predict a SH AD Zair, Sliding Usmash punishes it.

Don't AD into TL at kill %. You will get Utilt or Usmash.

Expect reverse arrow cancels.

Expect them to bomb drop more or less every time they hold a bomb and are above you. This is doubly true when landing, when they'll hold a bomb, come towards you to make you attack, then drop the bomb and AD, then land and Bair you out of the bomb explosion.

DONT CHALLENGE DAIR! EVER! AS ANY CHARACTER!

If you can save Usmash, it's probably the best move to kill him with. Dsmash is okay too if they don't DI it right.

Always keep a mental note of where the boomerang is and when it will come back. There's nothing worse than having a string interrupted by that thing. Also keep in mind he has lag when it comes back to him, so knocking him around a bit, then getting out of the way just as the boomerang comes back actually sets you up for a punish. I know there are ways for him to cancel the lag though but I don't know what they are.

Don't challenge Bair or Fair with aerials. Caping it, UpB and Fsmash (Maybe Usmash too? I forget) get through them though, and caping it messes with his spacing.

FLUDD actually isn't bad if he does aerials near the ledge. Messing up his spacing and putting him offstage is actually really good for us.

While TL isn't easy to gimp, it can be done. Moreso, he has somewhat limited edge options. If he has no bombs, odds are first thing he'll do is ledge-drop bomb-pull. He may repeat this a few times while throwing the previous bomb upwards to get you away from the ledge.
Once he feels safe, it seems like the usual strategies are ledgedrop>DJ>bomb throw>AD>follow-up, Ledgedrop>DJ>AD>Zair or ledgejump>Bomb throw/bomb drop. Most of the time, they do the first one.

That's all I can think of at the moment. It's an annoying MU though.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Personally I just rush up at him and do random stuff, and hope to god it works. Or at least that's what I think I do. I haven't played this game in a loooooooong while. (Not counting FFAs that oddly didn't have items at some random party).

Also Usmash probably beats his Dair, trufact. Or not. I don't know.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Just sayin...TL is like Mario's best target for U-air juggles after Ike. Your U-air juggle combos are REALLY REALLY GOOD on this character.

U-smash kinda can beat the D-air, but you don't want to try it unless he's being reeeealy obvious with it. It's better to find a way to punish it from the side.

It is important to learn how to invincible ledgedrop edgeguard to properly edgeguard a good TL imo.

Crouching can be useful for powershielding the Z-air.

That's all I know for now.

 

[steep]

Thanks everyone on the advice! I just had problems getting inside once they set up their zair spacing and projectile camping. I need some more practice fighting TL's is all I think. Any stage advice as far as cp's/bans? Thanks again everybody!

 

[Inferno3044]

Why would you Usmash TL's dair even if you see it coming? It's much safer and more rewarding to dodge and punish with Fsmash.

 

[Matador]

I personally have a hard time punishing TL's Dair once he hits the ground. The windboxes and low endlag don't help either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shielding the Windboxes lets you not get pushed by them. Drop shield D-smash ASAP if you're in this situation.

 

[Inferno3044]

Dsmash at lower percents. Fsmash if you can kill him with it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Which character does everyone want to discuss next? I can make the thread.

 

[steep]

How about Game and Watch? I hate fighting him....

 

[Juushichi]

GnW is super gay and no condemned unfortunately I wasn't at GGS. I could have asked to tag along with Solecalibur and Auspher but it slipped my mind.

 

[Coolwhip]

How about Game and Watch? I hate fighting him....

You gotta make this happen hero.

 

[mars16]

I agree Game and Watch

 

[Luigisama]

well for one Fire balls are risky to use because of the bucket. mario's jabs and his nairs are helpful against G&w. That's all I got. :3 meow

 

[Javon89]

Turtle eat away at your shield quite a bit. If they get too ambiguous with hammer, punish. Watch your ground game cause his d-tilt has pretty good range. I would try to make a G&W impatient with hit and run tactic (like a quick f-tilt) because he's way to powerful to take hits from, considering Mario's damage per hit is SUPER LOW, and his bucket makes it harder to camp (unless you can power-shield on reaction). Plus our gimping game is out of favour because of the properties of his floaty recovery. I think Super Jump Punch out of shield would be helpful in this match up.

Well that's my 5 cents; I give this match up 60:40 Game and Watch

 

[Inferno3044]

Mostly what Javon said except he didn't mention the fact that a lot of G&W kill moves are slow as ****, but pretty safe because he has like no ending lag.

 

[mars16]

Isn't Mario's F smash one of his most valauble move in this match.

used to punish G&w Fair (Luanch Box)

 

[Luigisama]

Isn't Mario's F smash one of his most valauble move in this match.

used to punish G&w Fair (Luanch Box)

probably if it was timed really well or if you predicted the fair and pushed G&w back with Fludd then Fsmash.

 

[Matador]

Isn't Mario's F smash one of his most valauble move in this match.

used to punish G&w Fair (Luanch Box)

The range and damage are great. They're definitely needed in this match-up. The leanback on Fsmash can make him whiff, but the spacing for that is tight, especially since Fair stays out for awhile.

 

[Javon89]

And Usmash is good for killing G&W cause he's so light.

 

[Coolwhip]

Here are some helpful pro & con tips on playing G&W....

pros
-He is lightweight
-floaty/lightweight easy combo's and setups...
-usmash kills around 110%
-your faster then he is.
-fludd kills his recovery

Cons
-he kills you early
-he gets another up-b after you've caped his recovery
-he has WAY more priority then you
-his air game is also WAY better then yours...
-bucket aka no fireballing allowed

you kinda wanna space yourself really well and create a wall that he cant break through.Ftilts bairs,you never wanna be above him!! stay grounded...space well enough to avoid his dtilt...

^ *Copy & paste from boss*

Edit from me.... Remember to mindgame your fireballz.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smash is actually pretty bad against G&W, simply because a lot of his moves linger too long. More often than not if his spacing is half decent, you're simply going to clip yourself for trying to F-smash him.

F-tilt and Jabs are really important. Saving B-throw helps, especially on stages with small blastzones. Learning to U-smash oos against his B-air is also very helpful.

 

[Inferno3044]

F-smash is actually pretty bad against G&W, simply because a lot of his moves linger too long. More often than not if his spacing is half decent, you're simply going to clip yourself for trying to F-smash him.

F-tilt and Jabs are really important. Saving B-throw helps, especially on stages with small blastzones. Learning to U-smash oos against his B-air is also very helpful.

I'm with you on this one. Yeah Fsmash has the range to help, but it's hard because of the little lag he has on moves. Using it against G&W's fair is not the best idea unless you wanna try to be gdlk and space it stupidly well. All in all, not a reliable punish. If he uses a smash though and you can react fast enough go for Fsmash (like how you would against anyone). I like using Dsmash a lot. It does decent damage and it gets him away.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Pardon the interruption, but the Olimar boards are discussing Mario.
Might be interesting. It's a weird match-up.

 

[MP8]

Can I get some thoughts on the Toon Link match up? I've always had some bad experiences with this character and still do.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Crouching is good against the Z-air. Caping is good against projectiles. Juggling him with U-tilt and U-air ***** because he's floaty. That's the good part of the matchup.

 

[Coolwhip]

Crouching is good against the Z-air. Caping is good against projectiles. Juggling him with U-tilt and U-air ***** because he's floaty. That's the good part of the matchup.

I may wanna add that fludd is your bess friend in this mu as well.
You don't wanna take bombs & arrows to the face all-day...
One more thing. Use full & short hops to confuse the player, Cuz most of them camp on the ground
or short hop for the most part.

 

[fromundaman]

I second that: FLUDD is surprisingly effective in this MU. It screws up his spacing badly, and if you FLUDD a Zair, it's a free punish.

Also, learn to insta-catch bombs. It helps.

 

[Inferno3044]

More or less this. TL is fairly easy to gimp and you are going to have to approach. If they stupidly dair, please punish that ****.

 

[A2ZOMG]

TL is actually tricky to gimp if he is able to hover outside of your Cape range and recover either really low or high. Invincible ledgedrop imo is really important against TL's low recovery. The way I see it you need similar tactics to gimp him and Marth. It's definitely doable, but you have to treat their recoveries a bit differently than others.

 

[MP8]

Most of this I sort of figured myself but I can see how FLUDD would definitely be of use in this match up. Toon Link being feather-like in the air supports this. Thanks.

 

[Matador]

Powershield/cape/catching bombs pretty much negates his camping, so get used to doing all 3 things.

Killing for TL is ordinarily an issue if you don't fall for any of his set-ups (bomb-> Usmash), so learn them and recognize when he wants to KO you.

 

[Omari]

@MP8: Cape TL's Boomerang, power-shield his arrows, reciprocate (return or flip) his bombs (non-cooked), shield cooked bombs, be attentive always (mainly when he's Z-airing), determined where you want to brawl him (@what range, close usually being the most rewarding due to boxer/wrestler v superior camper/sniper), know bread N butta Combos (yes, there are advanced BnB combos that Mario's capable of on certain characters (working on thread daily during spare time)), use your best ANTi-air (U-smash, hands down (not SJP)) & much more...experience.